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VF-0 question, how to move in water?


newca

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Perhaps the VF-0 has pop out propellers for underwater use, which are powered by pedal power.

Yep, for underwater use, the foot pedals in the cockpit are used for turning the prop, just like on one of those pedal boats.

"Pedal faster Edgar damn it, he's getting away!"

Graham

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Perhaps the VF-0 has pop out propellers for underwater use, which are powered by pedal power.

Yep, for underwater use, the foot pedals in the cockpit are used for turning the prop, just like on one of those pedal boats.

"Pedal faster Edgar damn it, he's getting away!"

Graham

just like CSN Hunley.... ;):p

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Maybe the fact that the VF-0"...as been modified for space use.." only concerns the vacuum/watertight integrity of the airframe and systems, considering that obviously a turbofan will not operate in space.

Edgar's statement may not necessarily be suggesting that it can "fly" in space, or that it has some sort of scramjet(also useless in vacuum). Just that they will be safe for submerged functions as they would be safe outside the earth's envelope if they happened to reach that high. It is still a fully functioning aerospace capsule, if not vehicle.

On the matter of underwater propulsion, w/out any other input or tech speculation, I could only imagine that the turbines could operate as impellers when submerged, a testament to the degree of developement of a system rugged enough for fusion powered, combat mech ops. If one considers that the only "actual" developemental problems w/the Shinnakusu fusion drives seems to be controllable, sustained fusion reaction(ie: nuclear process) for power; not necessarily the 'mechanical' operation of the turbofan/jet/rocket system.

This then yields an extremely durable, mechanical turbine & efflux system that may be fit to suck in water & eject it at higher velocity than injested. The same system that powers jetskis and even large cargo carrying hydrofoils. I even believe there is a state-of-the-art cruise ship(showcased on Discovery Ch. at some time last yr.) that is powered by vectoring impellers, as opposed to traditional, gigantic cast screws.

How this turbine/impeller would work I'm not sure. I imagine the compressor blades could be adjusted in pitch to channel water as opposed to air, and a limited jet fuel burn(in combustion chamber section) to drive it like a hydro-electric steam turbine. Allowing for a place for water to be sucked in and ejected w/out interfering with this reaction, tremendous propulsive power could easily be developed.

Rather than blast the Hoary Froating Head w/"blasphemous" ridicule for an 'apparent' anime magic engine, I'd give his hoariness the benefit of a doubt w/speculation on a derivatrive of contemporary technology from another discipline(sea system turbine engineeering).

Vesp

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Vespaeda's solution seems pretty far out, but I suppose it's within the realm of possibility. I think the compressor/turbine blades would be turned by stored electricity instead of burning jet fuel underwater. The latter would use up any gaseous oxygen reserves extremely quickly.

Max Jenius's solution also sounds good.

I guess if we rewatch the underwater sequence, we might see where the "thrust" is coming from, which could give some clues as to how it's being produced.

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I just looked again and the way it goes is:

1) VF-0 dives into the water like a pelican.

2) Shin and Edgar sees that the enemy mecha is going to grab the VF-0, so Shin remembers being attacked by an octopus, as well as the fact that a VF-0 can transform to battroid and dodge. He transforms to battroid and the heat shield activates just in time to protect the cockpit.

3) VF-0 transforms to battroid and shoots big enemy mecha with the head laser. (Which is rifled for some reason.)

4) VF-0 coasts underwater toward the AFOS head and grabs it. At first, it seems like it could be swimming, but then we see the backpack thrusters are lit.

5) After grabbing the head, the VF-0 dodges a torpedo and thrusts out of the water.

Picture 1: Activate thrusters.

post-2-1071620747_thumb.jpg

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On the matter of underwater propulsion, w/out any other input or tech speculation, I could only imagine that the turbines could operate as impellers when submerged, a testament to the degree of developement of a system rugged enough for fusion powered, combat mech ops. If one considers that the only "actual" developemental problems w/the Shinnakusu fusion drives seems to be controllable, sustained fusion reaction(ie: nuclear process) for power; not necessarily the 'mechanical' operation of the turbofan/jet/rocket system.

But... don't we see the air intakes on the VF-0 closing right before Shin dives it into the water? If the intakes are closed.... then where are the turbines getting water?

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Being Jet Engine turbines, NOT nuclear reaction engines, don't they need AIR to operate?

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Well...my bad.

Please forgive me as I've actually never seen any of the the Mac 0 anime. The screen caps posted by ewilen are the first I've seen of that scene.

I was using pure speculation on what types of propulsion might be used by such a vehicle in those circumstances. Just exercising my technical imagination; giving back to Macross what Macross has always given to me :D

And with that, I guess I withdraw my suggestion.

Although, upon seeing the pics of the active backpack, I believe current rocket tech can be used under water, due to some boundary-layer/bubble phenomena or propulsion chemistry(pure sodium?)that prevents it from being extinguished.

Other than that, now that I think about it, if the onboard fuel or electricity could be used to superheat water, the steam pressure could be a powerful thrust producer. Much mainstream aerospace rocket propulsion is provided by H2 + LOX rxn, backpack hydrolysis thrusters?

Anyone come up w/a more plausible one? How'sabout one of our Nihon-jin members e-mailing Studio Nue for a tech explanation?

Rabid fanboys wanna know!

Off topic:

Has anyone w/an aerospace appetite read up on Burt Rutan's X-prize contender, the far-out lift plane w/rocket pod underneath? I read that the main fuel for his rocket is a kind of granularized rubber compound that is non-toxic, as opposed to rocket

science mainstay hydrazine. Pretty cool!

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I seriously doubt this is how it's done for a VF, but I bring it up as a relevant side-note:

The main form of modern military ship propulsion is too drive the propeller via aircraft turbines. Does the same thing, works the same way---sucks in air, compresses, burns, spins turbine, thus spinning the propeller. Is actually a turboprop, just it's behind instead of in front. The LM2500, the "main" jet engine for ships, is much better known as the GE CF6, the main DC-10 engine, also used on the current Air Force One. (CF6 is the most common engine for widebody planes nowadays)

Yes, most any modern US Navy ship runs on high-grade jet fuel. Ironically, jet-carrying carriers (even non-nuclear ones) don't. :)

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I believe the robot is just swiming like a human beeing! It's possible. Anyway... it's an anime !

We can also imagine that the VF-0 backpack contains small quantities of Air/Gas mixture ready to be ignited. It's a possibility. Ignition system under water is WAY more complicated than ignition system in space or atmosphere... anyway, anyway...

Another question : How is it that the VF-0 is not drawing when Edgar lands on sea surface? It should draw. Imagine the weight of this baby

Another question : how can the VF-0 take off from sea surface if conventional air/gas turbines intakes are closed? Where the air is coming from?

Edited by Göönk
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I believe the robot is just swiming like a human beeing! It's possible. Anyway... it's an anime !

I watched the scene in slo-mo and although the battroid pushes off from the enemy mecha and may give a very slight leg kick, you can also see that the thrusters are sometimes lit and sometimes not. Also, the thrust "jets" which come out of the backpack right before it surfaces give it away.

We can also imagine that the VF-0 backpack contains small quantities of Air/Gas mixture ready to be ignited. It's a possibility. Ignition system under water is WAY more complicated than ignition system in space or atmosphere... anyway, anyway...

I was thinking a solid fuel which has fuel and oxidizer already mixed, but I think you can't turn off a solid fuel booster. Could you use pelletted fuel? Otherwise, some of Vespaeda's suggestions sound good to me. The backpack thrusters are described in the Compendium as "Three Shinnakasu ARR-2 maneuvering rocket motors in GERWALK and Battroid modes." This is different from the VF-1 thrusters, which are "Four Shinnakasu Heavy Industry NBS-1 high-thrust vernier thrusters."

Another question : How is it that the VF-0 is not drawing when Edgar lands on sea surface? It should draw. Imagine the weight of this baby

Good question. Maybe it's treading water.

Another question : how can the VF-0 take off from sea surface if conventional air/gas turbines intakes are closed? Where the air is coming from?

Like imode said. Not much different from a Tomahawk. A rocket booster pushes it out of the water and into the air, after which the jet engines take over.

Edited by ewilen
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imode--most every weapon's different in how it's launched when underwater.

Harpoon anti-ship missile: stuffed inside a special "flotation bubble" (basically a sleek capsule), shot out of the sub like a torpedo, floats to the surface, then fires its rocket motor and bursts out of the bubble to fly.

Tomahawk: launched like a torpedo until it's 33ft from the sub (lanyard attached), then fires its rocket motor underwater, bursts through to the surface, then once it's above the surface it engages its jet engine.

Nuclear missiles: propelled via *highly* compressed air all the way from launch depth to above the surface of the water, then ignites its rocket motor just above the surface. That's why you usually see LOTS of bubbles with an ICBM launch--all the air used to blast it out of the ocean.

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Another question : How is it that the VF-0 is not drawing when Edgar lands on sea surface? It should draw. Imagine the weight of this baby

VF-1 was able to float in DYRL, so the -0 should be able to also (most likely)

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