Macross Plus - interpretations of the ending

[Robelwell202]

@robelwell - you may think the scene is easy to interpret but the different ideas in this post show otherwise. All interpretations are based on assumptions of what we think happened after the brief "attack" flashback that we see.

Like the assumption you make that there's a sexual aspect to Guld's attack, simply because Myung's breasts are explosed? Riiiiiight...

To associate a sexual aspect to an attack of this nature, simply because of an exposed chest, is not only misinformed, it's actually subsituting presented material for your own supposition.

Let's look at this in a sequencial logic format.

1) Three close friends.

2) One friend develops love for another.

3) Said friend finds other two close, possibly embraced.

4) Friend feels betrayed, and acts out emotional pain and rage, targeting both of them.

5) Friend's memory glosses over actual incident, and Friend finds blame on Friend2 easy.

6) Friend holds grudge for many years, without realizing true facts.

[BeyondTheGrave]

Shyeah, Isamu was just comforting her. He also stayed up all night with Lucy playing parchizi. Remmber when Hikaru & Misa were alone in the Protocuture city? Misa was just showing Hikaru how her zipper worked!

Edited October 14, 2010 by BeyondTheGrave

[Nicaragua]

Like the assumption you make that there's a sexual aspect to Guld's attack, simply because Myung's breasts are explosed? Riiiiiight...

Yes, exactly like that. I'll say it again - ALL interpretations (including mine and yours) are based on assumptions of what we think happened after the brief "attack" flashback that we see.

To associate a sexual aspect to an attack of this nature, simply because of an exposed chest, is not only misinformed, it's actually subsituting presented material for your own supposition.

An attack on a female where you intentionally rip open her clothes is classed as a sexual assault. After working in the police force for 7 years, 3 of which were out patrolling streets, then i can tell you that with absolute certainty. Granted you are in the US and I am in the UK but I would be extremely surprised if the criteria of sexual assault was that different between our countries.

Legal definitions aside, im basing my ideas on what occurred on the exact same footage that you are so to say im misinformed is incorrect. The anime provides a brief flashback and based on that anyone who watches must draw their own conclusions. There is no substituting of material since i am not replacing anything I have actually seen with something of my own invention so again what you are saying is incorrect.

Let's look at this in a sequencial logic format.

1) Three close friends.

2) One friend develops love for another.

3) Said friend finds other two close, possibly embraced.

4) Friend feels betrayed, and acts out emotional pain and rage, targeting both of them.

5) Friend's memory glosses over actual incident, and Friend finds blame on Friend2 easy.

6) Friend holds grudge for many years, without realizing true facts.

Your sequencial logic format is just your own interpretation in a bulletpoint format. While that might be useful for any Macross Plus related power point presentations you do it dosnt really add to your own theory nor subtract from any of the others.

The point of this thread is to hear peoples thoughts on the main characters motivations in Macross Plus. If you want to try and outright convince me that your theory is the only true interpretation then your wasting your time, the flashback scene is brief, ambiguous and leaves the viewer to fill in a lot of the blanks themselves and i actually enjoy that aspect of it as it promotes friendly discussion on a subject i enjoy.

Edited October 15, 2010 by Nicaragua

[spacemanoeuvres]

Don't confuse not seeing what happened, for not knowing what happened. Again, you have to take all of the character interactions into account.

Myung: Far angrier at Isamu for leaving, than she was Guld for raging at them. Not the response of a rape victim.

Isamu: Can't figure out WTF Guld's problem is initially, and just why he's so damned at him after so many years. Not how someone acts when their best friend rapes their girlfriend.

Guld: when he finally acknowledges that he put his own guilt on Isamu, they share a laugh...not the act of a sane person who realizes they just raped someone they care about.

Hell, look how pissed off Isamu is when he finds out Myung actually did sleep with Guld after the fire, he was ready to rip him a new one, and that was consensual sex. Come on, seriously guys, use some common sense here.

This sounds reasonable, thank you for explaining much better than I could.

I seriously doubt anyone was raped; and I find that idea a rather gross interpretation of the events depicted in the OVA. Just my opinion (I'm allowed, the intar'webs said so).

Aren't there novelizations that put a finer point on what happened in the guld "hulk smash" scene?

[Roy Focker]

What we saw was the visualisation of a memory from a sick mind. Guld was mental case. You can't trust him to remember things right. What really happen is that he tried to rape Isamu.

[Keith]

What we saw was the visualisation of a memory from a sick mind. Guld was mental case. You can't trust him to remember things right. What really happen is that he tried to rape Isamu.

Nyoron~!

[Nicaragua]

What we saw was the visualisation of a memory from a sick mind. Guld was mental case. You can't trust him to remember things right. What really happen is that he tried to rape Isamu.

Maybe Isamu raped Guld which explains why Guld keeps tensing up whenever Isam is around ?

[DrunkenPilot72]

Maybe Isamu raped Guld which explains why Guld keeps tensing up whenever Isam is around ?

http://www.robotec.com.ar/personajes/macross_plus_guld.jpg

[Rabidweezil]

My personal interpretation:

Myung was not raped. But I think it was going to head in that direction until Guld saw himself in the mirror. He then realized what he was about to do, and what he had done. In years to come, he coped by fabricating in his mind it was Isamu that did those awful things and not himself. In a sense, turning his own shame and disgrace into agression. Agression for a part-Zentran is probably easier to deal with. Disgrace, probably not so much.

[shiroth]

http://www.robotec.com.ar/personajes/macross_plus_guld.jpg

Gotta love how that shot can easily tell more then one story.

[spacemanoeuvres]

What we saw was the visualisation of a memory from a sick mind. Guld was mental case. You can't trust him to remember things right. What really happen is that he tried to rape Isamu.

thank you

[Operator7G]

Going only by what we see in the OVA, Guld assaulted both Isamu and Myung. Guld displaces himself in his memory and believes Isamu to be the one who attacked the others. Not wanting to confront Guld with the truth, the others never acknowledge what really happened. Firmly believing Isamu to be the villain, it would be difficult to convince Guld otherwise and especially challenging to make him live with that shame. When Guld clearly sees his own memory, he realizes he was the one that assaulted Myung and not Isamu whom he had blamed for so many years. He also realizes that his friends never told him the truth. He then not only has the guilt of what he did to Myung but for destroying the friendship they all had, holding such anger towards each other for many years.

We don't know if Isamu was only comforting Myung but it does not matter. It was enough for Guld to walk in on them to set him off. We do know Myung loves both of them but Isamu more than Guld. Sharon was able to quantify this. Did Guld actually rape Myung? There likely wasn't a rape after the scene that's shown since Isamu was present unless he was knocked out (but perhaps at another time). Did Isamu rape Guld? We may never know.

Plus came out in 1994. That was over 15 years ago. Holy crap!!

[miles316]

Did Guld survive at the end of the Movie version of "Mac-Plus" because they show his plane later having been thrown in to orbit by the explosion and his helmet is still intact?

I assume he was still severely injured by the violent maneuver could he have survived?

[Keith]

Did Guld survive at the end of the Movie version of "Mac-Plus" because they show his plane later having been thrown in to orbit by the explosion and his helmet is still intact?

I assume he was still severely injured by the violent maneuver could he have survived?

Watch that scene again, then you come back and tell me.

[DrunkenPilot72]

Did Guld survive at the end of the Movie version of "Mac-Plus" because they show his plane later having been thrown in to orbit by the explosion and his helmet is still intact?

I assume he was still severely injured by the violent maneuver could he have survived?

There is no way Guld could have survived, the Gs utterly destroyed his body.

[Vic Mancini]

How could Guld "rape" Myung with Isamu right there? Does anyone really think Isamu would stand by and let that happen?

My interpretation:

-Guld walked in and saw Myung and Isamu in close proximity, sharing a moment.

-Guld became jealous and punched Isamu.

-Guld was angry and irrationally took it out on Myung by tossing her to the floor and ripping her shirt, probably thinking at the time that she was being a whore for liking Isamu instead of him.

-Guld saw his own reflection, was horrified by what he was doing, and stopped.

-Guld's subconscious altered the memory as a defense mechanism to help him deal with it. Isamu was replaced as the villian in the memory as a way for Guld to deflect his guilt.

He probably was about to rape Myung. Otherwise he could have just smacked her up and not ripped the shirt. Ripping the shirt implies a sexual attack. But Isamu was there. There was no rape. Even if Isamu wasn't there, Guld sees his own reflection and realizes what he's doing before anything too serious happens.

[MIsaHayase]

Shyeah, Isamu was just comforting her. He also stayed up all night with Lucy playing parchizi. Remmber when Hikaru & Misa were alone in the Protocuture city? Misa was just showing Hikaru how her zipper worked!

Misa and Hikaru were probably making protoculture ^_~. And I'm not referring to the gooey green stuff.

[Keith]

Misa and Hikaru were probably making protoculture ^_~. And I'm not referring to the gooey green stuff.

Which gooey stuff were you referring to? !

[Marzan]

Did Guld survive at the end of the Movie version of "Mac-Plus" because they show his plane later having been thrown in to orbit by the explosion and his helmet is still intact?

I assume he was still severely injured by the violent maneuver could he have survived?

Both the OVA and movie versions of Macross Plus make it pretty clear he died.

[Nicaragua]

How could Guld "rape" Myung with Isamu right there? Does anyone really think Isamu would stand by and let that happen?

Isamu gets punched out by Guld at the beginning of the scene.

I always took it that Isamu was spark out unconscious during the attack, if he wasnt then how did he let anything take place at all ?

[Vic Mancini]

Isamu gets punched out by Guld at the beginning of the scene.

I always took it that Isamu was spark out unconscious during the attack, if he wasnt then how did he let anything take place at all ?

Good point. That didn't occur to me.

I guess I assumed Isamu was conscious during Guld's spazz-attack, because in the present day Isamu has knowledge of what happened back then. He purposely keeps it from Guld, for years, because even though Guld is being a dick, Isamu is noble and lets Guld blame him if that's what makes him feel better about himself. Granted, the details of the attack could have been relayed to Isamu by Myung, I suppose.

In regards to your question, have you even been standing next to someone in real life who got punched or attacked? Things can happen pretty fast and you don't always have time to react even if you're right next to it. A full-on rape on the other hand takes a little more time.

[frothymug]

Towards the end of episode 1 when Guld loses control of his YF-21, he flashes back some images where Isamu is comforting Myung. She's concealing herself and you can see the tatters of her clothes hanging off of her body, with everything in the room overturned. Isamu knew right then and there. He might have been unable to protect Myung at first, but he was there when Guld was realizing what he had done.

[Mr March]

That's an interesting scene to cite. If we're accepting the veracity of Guld's flashbacks (as I said before, a very questionable proposition), the case against a rape becomes more compelling due to that scene showing Isamu comforting Myung. If I recall the particulars of that scene, Myung still had her clothes with the exception of her tattered shirt. Unless Guld can space fold himself through clothing, a rape would require Myung in a state of greater undress.

[nexxstrait]

Regardless of what you want to call it, Guld assaulted Isamu and tried to rape Myung. I don't think he succeeded, from what we see he realized what he was doing right after he tore her shirt to pieces. It all happened in a matter of seconds, so probably Guld froze in disbelief for what he had done, Isamu ran to Myung and kneeled to protect and confort her, Guld then refocused and saw them there. He then probably ran away and got drunk or whatever and made up his mind that what he saw was Isamu beating Myung. The story unfolds.

That, however, doesn't change the fact that he used violence against her, wether he was succesful or not. That's rape and that's also what drove him crazy.

[Keith]

No, violence, even against women, is not the same as rape. You've got some seriously funny idea's.

[Nicaragua]

If I recall the particulars of that scene, Myung still had her clothes with the exception of her tattered shirt. Unless Guld can space fold himself through clothing, a rape would require Myung in a state of greater undress.

Not wanting to be crude or obvious but ive had sex plenty of times just by pulling my partners knickers to one side, works a treat if your out and about. I did try space folding my penis through her clothing one time but the fold booster attached to my bell-end all became rather cumbersome so we just went back to pulling her knickers to the side.

Anyway back to the point in hand. In that scene i think Myung is wearing a dress so perhaps Guld had already pulled her knickers off? Maybe he used his brute Zentradi rage to rip them apart at the seams? Or maybe they are still intact and happy wrapped around Myungs bum? Its another point open to speculation but rest assured that underwear isnt a impenatrable barrier against a potential attacker.

[frothymug]

I think you're starting to stretch the evidence to fit other theories. Let's just follow Occam's razor here and say that she was "assaulted", but not raped. This is based on what we've seen and is the most obvious explanation of what happened.

[Nicaragua]

No, violence, even against women, is not the same as rape. You've got some seriously funny idea's.

Correct, violence against women is definatly not rape. However violence directed at womans breasts or genitals (or with the intention of exposing breasts or genitals) is a sexual assault. Sexual assault is more often than not a pre-cursor to rape and its often only the attacker being disturbed that prevents it becoming so.

[Nicaragua]

I think you're starting to stretch the evidence to fit other theories. Let's just follow Occam's razor here and say that she was "assaulted", but not raped. This is based on what we've seen and is the most obvious explanation of what happened.

Nothing is being stretched because nobody knows. If someone was suggesting that just after Guld looks in the mirror then Myung pulls out a stun grenade which due to its close range detonation wipes out that portion of Gulds memory then i'd be inclined to agree with you.

Anyway, if you just want to follow the obvious explanation (obvious to you that is) then why bother with a thread about discussing different interpretations ?

[Mr March]

Not wanting to be crude or obvious but ive had sex plenty of times just by pulling my partners knickers to one side, works a treat if your out and about. I did try space folding my penis through her clothing one time but the fold booster attached to my bell-end all became rather cumbersome so we just went back to pulling her knickers to the side.

Anyway back to the point in hand. In that scene i think Myung is wearing a dress so perhaps Guld had already pulled her knickers off? Maybe he used his brute Zentradi rage to rip them apart at the seams? Or maybe they are still intact and happy wrapped around Myungs bum? Its another point open to speculation but rest assured that underwear isnt a impenatrable barrier against a potential attacker.

Well that's the catch with relying upon the flashbacks as evidence: we're either accepting the flashbacks literally or we don't accept the veracity of the flashbacks at all. There's no room for any in between unless we accept the possibility that a rape could have happened, regardless of individual theory/interpretation. Hence my original post on the subject.

[Keith]

Ok, let's step outside of the flash back context for a minute. What happens when Guld saves Myung from the fire? Does he rape her unconcious body? No, he takes her back to her place, and prepares to leave until "she" asks him to stay. Mystery solved, Guld is not a rapist.

Edited October 20, 2010 by Keith

[Nicaragua]

Ok, let's step outside of the flash back context for a minute. What happens when Guld saves Myung from the fire? Does he rape her unconcious body? No, he takes her back to her place, and prepares to leave until "she" asks him to stay. Mystery solved, Guld is not a rapist.

Nor does he punch her and rip her top open or climb on top of her and create a downforce to crush her or hack into computers to load live ammo into her gunpod - so whats your point?

Guld is a bit of a bumhole - he is probably one of my favourite Macross characters but it dosnt blind me to the fact that he is a severely flawed person.

Btw: if you think someone who is a rapist cannot have a sexual experience without raping soneone then sorry but your wrong. Thats pretty much why rapists dont get caught instantly - if they went around raping every female they were intimate with they would get apprehended much sooner.

Edited October 20, 2010 by Nicaragua

[Nicaragua]

Well that's the catch with relying upon the flashbacks as evidence: we're either accepting the flashbacks literally or we don't accept the veracity of the flashbacks at all. There's no room for any in between unless we accept the possibility that a rape could have happened, regardless of individual theory/interpretation. Hence my original post on the subject.

I pretty much agree hence why i started this thread because i am open to all interpretations. However i would say that you can use what you do see combined with probability. A film does not need to show EVERYTHING in order to tell a story but we can use what we do see as a springboard to complete the story.

For example we can see protagonists run into battle against overwhelming odds and know the outcome. We can see Guld charge the ghost fighter and know the outcome without seeing his corpse. You go off what you see and extrapolate the rest.

Now i am not going to tell anyone that their theory is wrong and im going to defend theories where people say "that cant be right because...X". If its possible and plausible then im interested.

[Keith]

Now i am not going to tell anyone that their theory is wrong and im going to defend theories where people say "that cant be right because...X". If its possible and plausible then im interested.

I will. Anyone who thinks Guld raped Myung is wrong!

[Mr March]

I pretty much agree hence why i started this thread because i am open to all interpretations. However i would say that you can use what you do see combined with probability. A film does not need to show EVERYTHING in order to tell a story but we can use what we do see as a springboard to complete the story.

For example we can see protagonists run into battle against overwhelming odds and know the outcome. We can see Guld charge the ghost fighter and know the outcome without seeing his corpse. You go off what you see and extrapolate the rest.

Now i am not going to tell anyone that their theory is wrong and im going to defend theories where people say "that cant be right because...X". If its possible and plausible then im interested.

I agree for the most part with the exception that I don't share your personal interpretation. But we don't need share an interpretation so long as it's understood that we can't know the answer for certain like some trivia statistic. There's no published trivia in "meters" or "tons" to cover this situation

When it comes to theme and mood, all good film drama relies upon unspoken cues to communicate visually with the audience. But film can't be literal when "literal" is precisely what the creator is trying to avoid. No one likes exposition hammered into their head or to be led by the hand like a retard from one plot point to the next (unless you're a fan of Michael Bay *chortle*). So filmmakers use other techniques to communicate a purpose for what is shown onscreen. Sometimes the communication is clear...other times it's not. But even when the creator does want to convey a straight forward concept in a simple way, the audience can always intentionally distort the result. Ewok Holocaust, anyone?

It's also true that Shoji Kawamori is one of those writers who absolutely adores myriad interpretations of his work, especially in ways he never imagined. Most writers do. So when he creates a story in which we viewers are shown a past event in fractured flashbacks from a character with a fractured mind, it's clear Kawamori isn't hitting the audience with a straight forward interpretation. It's why many groan when this topic comes up because they hate questioning a beloved film/series that they've interpreted the same way for years and years

Edited October 20, 2010 by Mr March