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azrael

HG and Robotech Debates

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There is a middle ground between "God's gift" (which I have NEVER claimed) and "worthless trash" (claimed by Seto, you, etc). Robotech isn't perfect, but it isn't worthless either.

Who says there has to be a middle ground?

Robotech is obsolete trash. Plain and simple.

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I guess I don't get the thought process behind it. If a person lurked around for even a few hours, back read the original thread, they would have gotten the vibe of the community. If someone did that they would know if they could feel comfortable here or not. Besides, if he was here for tech-chit-chat why bring Robotech vs Macross fandom into the conversation at all and then ask the tech question more or less as an after thought.

That's exactly why we have good reason to suspect that he came here spoiling for a fight (or was unwittingly sent here by someone who wanted to start a fight by proxy), rather than being motivated by a desire to talk technology.

Who says there has to be a middle ground?

Robotech is obsolete trash. Plain and simple.

To be fair, judgments of Robotech's value as a form of entertainment are entirely subjective. You can't really form a cogent argument that a show is "bad" or "good", because those judgments can vary from person to person based on the subjective viewing experience. If you look hard enough, you'll find someone who likes just about anything.

If you want to build a strong case against Robotech, you have to go beyond whether the show is "good" or "bad" to actual critique of the material and its production... there's certainly more than enough there to make an exhaustive case for Robotech being inferior to most modern anime titles. You could, for example, point out that Robotech is, in the final analysis, nothing more than a hastily-assembled amalgam of three unrelated shows with post-facto pretensions of epic storytelling and originality. A strong case could also be made that Robotech has little-to-no artistic integrity, as the show is entirely composed of preexisting animation and stories created by other authors, strung together with a few weak excuses for the sole purpose of making Super Dimension Fortress Macross long enough to syndicate. It's also no stretch to say that their first sequel attempt was more of same, and the ones that followed were little more than attempts to continue profiting from someone else's work (specifically, Macross) without even giving the original authors proper credit. It's also no exaggeration to say that the vast majority of modern anime enthusiasts consider Robotech, and rewrites in general, to be largely without any significant redeeming virtues that would justify the disrespect to the original author's work. We could also take the obvious route and point out that unlike Macross, which has thrived and acquired a sizable fan following despite Harmony Gold's attempts to keep it out of the hands of western audiences, Robotech is a largely forgotten, anachronistic piece of 80's esoterica that few recognize and fewer respect.

As you can see, it's quite possible (and frankly, easy) to verbally demolish Robotech without having to insult anyone or resort to subjective value judgments.

Edited by Seto Kaiba

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That's exactly why we have good reason to suspect that he came here spoiling for a fight (or was unwittingly sent here by someone who wanted to start a fight by proxy), rather than being motivated by a desire to talk technology.

To be fair, judgments of Robotech's value as a form of entertainment are entirely subjective. You can't really form a cogent argument that a show is "bad" or "good", because those judgments can vary from person to person based on the subjective viewing experience. If you look hard enough, you'll find someone who likes just about anything.

If you want to build a strong case against Robotech, you have to go beyond whether the show is "good" or "bad" to actual critique of the material and its production... there's certainly more than enough there to make an exhaustive case for Robotech being inferior to most modern anime titles. You could, for example, point out that Robotech is, in the final analysis, nothing more than a hastily-assembled amalgam of three unrelated shows with post-facto pretensions of epic storytelling and originality. A strong case could also be made that Robotech has little-to-no artistic integrity, as the show is entirely composed of preexisting animation and stories created by other authors, strung together with a few weak excuses for the sole purpose of making Super Dimension Fortress Macross long enough to syndicate. It's also no stretch to say that their first sequel attempt was more of same, and the ones that followed were little more than attempts to continue profiting from someone else's work (specifically, Macross) without even giving the original authors proper credit. It's also no exaggeration to say that the vast majority of modern anime enthusiasts consider Robotech, and rewrites in general, to be largely without any significant redeeming virtues that would justify the disrespect to the original author's work. We could also take the obvious route and point out that unlike Macross, which has thrived and acquired a sizable fan following despite Harmony Gold's attempts to keep it out of the hands of western audiences, Robotech is a largely forgotten, anachronistic piece of 80's esoterica that few recognize and fewer respect.

As you can see, it's quite possible (and frankly, easy) to verbally demolish Robotech without having to insult anyone or resort to subjective value judgments.

Speaking of robotech not getting respect from today anime fans (read the comments) : http://www.toplessrobot.com/2009/10/live-a..._nerd_boner.php

Edited by Macross007

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From the link above:

The original Japanese Macross anime? Pretty awesome. Macross Plus? Pretty good. Macross Zero? Good, I'm told. But the rest -- Macross II, Macross 7, and this Macross Frontier nonsense -- are or look like ass. Meanwhile, Robotech's Macross Saga -- and this comes from a dude who was a professional anime nerd for seven years -- is better than any and all of them.

.

I think they need to revoke his "professional anime nerd" license for saying that.

Edited by MastaEgg

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I think they need to revoke his "professional anime nerd" license for saying that.

If he thinks like that in this day in age, he never had one to begin with.

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WTF is a "professional anime nerd?"
A valueless title, that is self appointed, to try and make himself feel like a vetren fan of anime I assume.The fact that he says "I heard", makes his entire article rendered null. If anything he is a "professional HG toady." :mellow:

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A valueless title, that is self appointed, to try and make himself feel like a vetren fan of anime I assume.The fact that he says "I heard", makes his entire article rendered null. If anything he is a "professional HG toady." :mellow:

As a "Professional Anime Nerd," I will bring an end to the continual debates and arguments by hereby declaring that the best anime ever made is... SAINT SEIYA.

You're welcome.

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As a "Professional Anime Nerd," I will bring an end to the continual debates and arguments by hereby declaring that the best anime ever made is... SAINT SEIYA.

You're welcome.

I thought we agreed it was peach girl? :ph34r:

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A strong case could also be made that Robotech has little-to-no artistic integrity, as the show is entirely composed of preexisting animation and stories created by other authors, strung together with a few weak excuses for the sole purpose of making Super Dimension Fortress Macross long enough to syndicate. It's also no stretch to say that their first sequel attempt was more of same, and the ones that followed were little more than attempts to continue profiting from someone else's work (specifically, Macross) without even giving the original authors proper credit. It's also no exaggeration to say that the vast majority of modern anime enthusiasts consider Robotech, and rewrites in general, to be largely without any significant redeeming virtues that would justify the disrespect to the original author's work. We could also take the obvious route and point out that unlike Macross, which has thrived and acquired a sizable fan following despite Harmony Gold's attempts to keep it out of the hands of western audiences, Robotech is a largely forgotten, anachronistic piece of 80's esoterica that few recognize and fewer respect.

I think HG isn't even denying that anymore after retconning everything that isn't animation as, unfortunately, just disposable merchandise to them. For what it's worth, all of it did progress the story to a conclusion at least, instead of no ending. Now, they're not even trying to cover the fact that they don't have much new to contribute to it and they're just doing it for the money.

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Kinda sad that this is the most active thread in this site. Also kinda sad i like reading it so much, lol.

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Kinda sad that this is the most active thread in this site. Also kinda sad i like reading it so much, lol.

+ 1.............. :wacko:

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Kinda sad that this is the most active thread in this site. Also kinda sad i like reading it so much, lol.

It's just goes to show you that nothing gets people's attention faster than controversy and drama.

Perhaps as a function of their other, abundant faults, Robotech and its fanbase have never had a shortage of drama and controversy.

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Kinda sad that this is the most active thread in this site. Also kinda sad i like reading it so much, lol.

Agreed. I have no real beef with Robotech, except that I don't enjoy it much. And this thread can get monotonous at times, or else get a little TOO mean-spirited. But still...it's one of the most genuinely exciting threads on the board...it's like rooting for your favorite football team. You don't REALLY hate the other team or their fans, but it's fun to act like it sometimes.

ROBOTECH...GRRRRR!!!!

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I have to agree Saint Seiya is the best anime ever made. Pegasus Fantasy.

Well of course you do. I'm a "Professional Anime Nerd™." My word is law. B))

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Well of course you do. I'm a "Professional Anime Nerd™." My word is law. B))
You should put that in your sig, Or a mod should give you that title. That or "MW's Official Japanese Translator".

^_^

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You should put that in your sig, Or a mod should give you that title. That or "MW's Official Japanese Translator".

^_^

Don't give the mods any ideas, please...Look at poor Renato, saddled with "Uncharismatic Hermaphrodite" or Bsu Legato, the "Super Dimension Cinderella," or Agent GHQ, the "Head Pilot."

Custom titles are a curse, not a blessing.

Edited by Gubaba

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Agreed. I have no real beef with Robotech, except that I don't enjoy it much. And this thread can get monotonous at times, or else get a little TOO mean-spirited. But still...it's one of the most genuinely exciting threads on the board...it's like rooting for your favorite football team. You don't REALLY hate the other team or their fans, but it's fun to act like it sometimes.

ROBOTECH...GRRRRR!!!!

I don't really see the football analogy working. Macross fans aren't really competing with Robotech fans. I was thinking about this earlier today, if HG and Robotech ceased to exist, or never existed in the first place, it would have had absolutely no effect on the macross franchise. Since macross is japanese and Robotech doesn't exist there and the fact that macross has done fine all these nearly 3 decades without major international presence, there would have still been all the sequels and whatnot.

I can understand why macross fan would be angry at robotech, but i can't understand the other side. What possible reason do Robotech fans have to be pissed at Macross or its fans?

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Don't give the mods any ideas, please...Look at poor Renato, saddled with "Uncharismatic Hermaphrodite" or Bsu Legato, the "Super Dimension Cinderella," or Agent GHQ, the "Head Pilot."

Custom titles are a curse, not a blessing.

Wow.Now that you bring it to my attention.We have some pretty malevolent mods.

:ph34r:

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I don't really see the football analogy working. Macross fans aren't really competing with Robotech fans. I was thinking about this earlier today, if HG and Robotech ceased to exist, or never existed in the first place, it would have had absolutely no effect on the macross franchise. Since macross is japanese and Robotech doesn't exist there and the fact that macross has done fine all these nearly 3 decades without major international presence, there would have still been all the sequels and whatnot.

I can understand why macross fan would be angry at robotech, but i can't understand the other side. What possible reason do Robotech fans have to be pissed at Macross or its fans?

Maybe (this my idea[my ideas are not always coherent, I warn you]) HG has brainwashed them into thinking, that if threy let Macross in the U.S and there derivities, it would cause product confusion, leading to less money being spent on there (HG) prouducts.Hence less of a fanbase= no more Robotech. I mean honestly. If you picked up a MP from toynami, then a 1/48 Yamato, which one would you buy (assuming that a US Yamato would be lower in price, even if it wasn't I'd still for a 1/48)? I know I'd toss the MP away.

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I don't really see the football analogy working. Macross fans aren't really competing with Robotech fans. I was thinking about this earlier today, if HG and Robotech ceased to exist, or never existed in the first place, it would have had absolutely no effect on the macross franchise. Since macross is japanese and Robotech doesn't exist there and the fact that macross has done fine all these nearly 3 decades without major international presence, there would have still been all the sequels and whatnot.

I can understand why macross fan would be angry at robotech, but i can't understand the other side. What possible reason do Robotech fans have to be pissed at Macross or its fans?

Let's face it...Robotech gets no respect, especially not 'round these parts. So there are charges of elitism, and often, they're justified. Anime fans generally have a dim view of Robotech, and (as we have seen recently) some RT fans get offended when people insult the series they grew up on.

(There's also the fact that there are yahoos like JamesBond77 running around on youtube shouting "Roboshit" this and "Shadow Crapticles" that every chance they get...they make us look bad.)

So yeah...some the Macross fans are definitely to blame. (And according to Pizza the Hutt, I'm one of the worst offenders, because I make fun of Memo, and throw out insults, which he says he never does (incidentally, in that same PM, he called me a "son of a hoe"(sic) and pitied me for liking a "jap crap" series).)

Other than that, some of it may be resentment. Macross is not as prolific as Gundam, certainly, but we do get a new series every few years Robotech fans have had to deal with failed movies, cancelled TV series, delayed sequels, the works. Some of the Macross sequels have been less-than-stellar, but only two projects that I know of have been cancelled outright.

But I think most of it, really, is stubbornness. Robotech is what they saw, Robotech is what makes them feel warm and nostalgic, and they don't like this Macross version that everyone's telling them they should like instead.

My question is...why is Robotech the one that spawns the ahte? Certainly, I dislike "Battle of the Planets" and "Warriors of the Wind" every bit as much as Robotech...but those are kind of non-issues. No one gets upset if you use Voltron terminlogy while talking about Golion. What is it about Robotech? Is it because Macross is better than Golion or Gatchaman? Is it the sense of betrayal involved? Is it because there are STILL people insisting that Robotech is more than the sum of its parts? Why is this lame little attempt to capitalize on the giant robot craze of the '80s so much more offensive than others?

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Yaaaawn.

To repeat for the zillionth time:

Robotech spawns hate because HG uses the threat of legal action/force against Macross retailers and likes to enforce a censored view of history upon its' fandom.

That's why I hate Robotech and don't even have anything against people like the JamesBond guy you mentioned.

I don't think that a company that sends legal threats to little retailers trying to offer Yamato products has any right to expect to be treated with even a tad bit of respect.

I think it's perfectly fine to call them names, belittle them and generally look down on them.

They clearly think it's a-ok for THEM to use legal threats against people who happen to like a certain Japanese anime and certain Japanese products - so why should they get the benefit of respect?

I can respect a Robotech fan for liking Robotech the series as a matter of personal opinion. But the hostility really starts when an RT fan casually ignores or endorses HG's bullying practices.

As for the thread being so popular...well...yeah - I agree - it shouldn't be... but then again recently we've had an influx of "I just got banned on RT" stories which were fun to read and discuss, then Captain Donovan shows up.

I do hope, by the way, that he hangs around - or has he already left us? :)

Pete

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Yaaaawn.

To repeat for the zillionth time:

Robotech spawns hate because HG uses the threat of legal action/force against Macross retailers and likes to enforce a censored view of history upon its' fandom.

That's why I hate Robotech and don't even have anything against people like the JamesBond guy you mentioned.

I don't think that a company that sends legal threats to little retailers trying to offer Yamato products has any right to expect to be treated with even a tad bit of respect.

I think it's perfectly fine to call them names, belittle them and generally look down on them.

They clearly think it's a-ok for THEM to use legal threats against people who happen to like a certain Japanese anime and certain Japanese products - so why should they get the benefit of respect?

I can respect a Robotech fan for liking Robotech the series as a matter of personal opinion. But the hostility really starts when an RT fan casually ignores or endorses HG's bullying practices.

As for the thread being so popular...well...yeah - I agree - it shouldn't be... but then again recently we've had an influx of "I just got banned on RT" stories which were fun to read and discuss, then Captain Donovan shows up.

I do hope, by the way, that he hangs around - or has he already left us? :)

Pete

So it's solely HG's business practices for you?

HG's business practices are annoying, and it's sad to know I'll probably never be able to walk into Borders and pick up a Macross Frontier comic or a Macross Zero Blu-Ray.

But for me, a big problem is the show itself, and some of the more rabid fans' reactions to it. But I guess a lot of that stems from HG's attitude(s) over the years as well. Sometimes they're quite open and honest about Robotech's roots, other times they're dismissive or evasive. And so sometimes the fans follow suit. And it seems like nearly ALL the fans revere Carl Macek, who of course didn't CREATE the story, just changed it. And yet, they act like he's the one who made Robotech great.

Macek's own statements don't help matters, since he always makes it sound like he took this backwards little ugly duckling show and made it realize its potential. Needless to say, I don't see it like that.

Honest difference of opinion, most of it. But there ARE some facts buried in there, and Macross fans generally seem to "know the score" better than a lot of Robotech fans.

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Personally, I only have certain issues with Robotech and its fandom:

- Robotech II: The Sentinels is a poorly-animated piece of sh!t and anyone who actually likes it is an imbecile.

- Anyone who thinks Macross II/Plus/7/Zero/Frontier are or should be part of RT is a retard.

- Anyone who makes a video using Macross II/Plus/7/Zero/Frontier footage and packages it as RT is a dumbass and should be caned in public.

- Anyone who thinks Toynami's MPC Veritechs are better than Yamato's Valks should be castrated.

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Macek's own statements don't help matters, since he always makes it sound like he took this backwards little ugly duckling show and made it realize its potential. Needless to say, I don't see it like that.

Should this also count as a sort of business practice used by him and other people in HG since to defend the work? The company did "create" the story and others continue to build... something from it. For as long as they want to work on it they'll have no choice but to be defensive about Robotech when the facts are out there in some form. Official crew willing to talk about it are usually good in choosing their words for the right effect. They could be a source of a lot of the anger from their side because some of it works in their favor.

From their POV, for instance, BW could be in the wrong because they refused to work with HG for the benefit of Macross and (for them mostly) Robotech. Did representatives from HG ever phrase it that way, or was that the conclusion some people in the fandom made from what happened at one time? Anyway, that kind of thinking can be good for HG in terms of product loyalty. Fans' disgust could motivate them to be very defensive about the franchise as well, in addition to being proud financial supporters of it, which is what they really want.

aka. media manipulation

Edited by Einherjar

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So it's solely HG's business practices for you?

Solely the business practices justify the venomous hate and sometimes swearing/cussing and lack of general respect.

I agree that the product sucks too - but there are thousands of products around the world which I don't like, but I can't hate people for making or liking them and there is no conflict between "us and them" in the sense that they have their pleasures and I have mine.

HG tries to deny Macross fans their pleasures - thus the anger.

it seems like nearly ALL the fans revere Carl Macek, who of course didn't CREATE the story, just changed it. And yet, they act like he's the one who made Robotech great.

Macek's own statements don't help matters, since he always makes it sound like he took this backwards little ugly duckling show and made it realize its potential. Needless to say, I don't see it like that.

Honest difference of opinion, most of it. But there ARE some facts buried in there, and Macross fans generally seem to "know the score" better than a lot of Robotech fans.

I agree.

And even when HG is making its' "own" product - one cannot help but feel that something is not right. The opening to the Sentinels, where it's basically like "story by HG dude" "animation by HG dude" "design by HG dude" ... and you're sitting there thinking... they might have the RIGHTS to these designs - but come on...the designs of the mecha are from Mospedea...the character templates are from Macross...

But the credits make it sound like Macek and friends just thought all of this up from A to Z and created it.

It's that conciet which I don't like in them either. Hasbro never denies that Takara-Tomy exists, and the two work together. Sometimes the Japanese go a different route to the Americans - but there is not bad blood and no one ever tries to steal credit when it's not due.

But whatever - the best "testimony" to HG is their own Robotech.com website.

Nothing interesting whatsoever is there. The forums are basically full of newbies.

It's like - take our Newbie thread in the TV and Shows forum -- and that's all of Robotech.com

It's all just "hey I remember seeing..." and "can someone explain what..." -- and I think HG likes it that way - the more muddle headed the fan, the easier it is to sell muddle headed stuff to him.

I mean - just think about a company that, in the age of Takara Masterpiece Transformers, Bandai's Soul of Chogokin, not to mention Yamato's 1/48 VF-1s goes and calls its' "veritech" toy line.... the "Masterpiece series."

And I'm not being mean here. I did a side by side photographic comparisson once of a 1/48 and a "Masterpiece" from Toynami - it's not JUST the metal swing bars on the Toynami that make it lower quality - check the level of detailing on ANY part of the toy. No ventilation grid over the fists in fighter mode. Excessive use of plain smooth plastic - that is to say - no details or panel lines etched into the mold.... the list is long... It's just such an inferior piece - and fine...ok...call it a Veritech action toy or whatever...

But the shutzpa of these guys calling their work a "Masterpiece" ... it's like... what universe do they live in ? :)

Pete

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The bussiness practises make HG the focus point of the fan hate, but I can't help but wonder what role Tasunoko is playing in this drama. Are they the main villain hiding in the background? ^_^

I can't really estimate how much bad blood there is between Tats and BW, but Tats has to renew the renew HG's SDFM license every few years (and the other two), if they pull the plug it's bye bye Robotech. Even if HG folds the (SDFM) license will just return to Tats who can give it to anyone they see fit.

Edited by Bri

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The bussiness practises make HG the focus point of the fan hate, but I can't help but wonder what role Tasunoko is playing in this drama. Are they the main villain hiding in the background? ^_^

I can't really estimate how much bad blood there is between Tats and BW, but Tats has to renew the renew HG's SDFM license every few years (and the other two), if they pull the plug it's bye bye Robotech. Even if HG folds the license will just return to Tats who can give it to anyone they see fit.

In a perfect world, that would happen, and BW would swoop right in and buy it back, then before you know it, no more RT,except for whats left out there, and region 1 DVD's & region A Blu-Rays with english subs for Mac 0, and Frontier! Oh I can dream.

^_^

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Couldn't HG just reboot the Robotech franchise? I'm thinking it would make life easier and allow both parties to do whatever the hell they wanted. Just retell it from page 1 with the same basic story and characters-- change a few things to get rid of the legal headaches-- and then let the fanbase(s) and market settle this business.

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Couldn't HG just reboot the Robotech franchise? I'm thinking it would make life easier and allow both parties to do whatever the hell they wanted. Just retell it from page 1 with the same basic story and characters-- change a few things to get rid of the legal headaches-- and then let the fanbase(s) and market settle this business.

ideally, a reboot/re-imagining would be beneficial for everybody.

unfortunately, we have a few things keeping that from happening.

-HG is utterly devoid of original, creative thought, and heavily relies on pre-existing material for its shows.

-all the RT fans remember & want is the Macross part of RT, and they want to keep the Macross designs.

-HG will not let go of the only thing that keeps them afloat: the Macross part of RT & all the associated trademarks & merch rights.

le sigh...

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The bussiness practises make HG the focus point of the fan hate, but I can't help but wonder what role Tasunoko is playing in this drama. Are they the main villain hiding in the background? ^_^

If MEMO's statements are to be believed, Tatsunoko expects their licensee to play hardball with SDF Macross' film distribution rights, and they've found a willing licensee in Harmony Gold. While both parties are clearly complicit, it makes sense that Tatsunoko would be the one pulling the strings. Tatsunoko is the license holder and Harmony Gold merely the licensee.

I can't really estimate how much bad blood there is between Tats and BW, but Tats has to renew the renew HG's SDFM license every few years (and the other two), if they pull the plug it's bye bye Robotech. Even if HG folds the (SDFM) license will just return to Tats who can give it to anyone they see fit.

Looking at the numerous lawsuits filed, I'd say that there's an overwhelming amount of bad blood between Big West and Tatsunoko. Personally speaking, I'd say that Big West dislikes Tatsunoko even more than they do Harmony Gold. Tatsunoko is the one who tried to strip away SDF Macross from Big West, not Harmony Gold. Harmony Gold just cheered on Tatsunoko from the sideline.

I do agree that if Harmony Gold ever folded, Tatsunoko would simply find another licensee who would aggresively protect their license. I think Tatsunoko would specifically look for a licensee that is not sympathetic to Big West.

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I think Tatsunoko would specifically look for a licensee that is not sympathetic to Big West.

I agree, HG would just be replaced by another licensee. It would free up the trademarks though, wonder how the trademark agencies would respond should both BW and Tats apply for it.

Couldn't HG just reboot the Robotech franchise? I'm thinking it would make life easier and allow both parties to do whatever the hell they wanted. Just retell it from page 1 with the same basic story and characters-- change a few things to get rid of the legal headaches-- and then let the fanbase(s) and market settle this business.

Not very likely, if there ever will be a reboot it's going to come from the WB movie, but it remains to be seen if that ever gets made.

HG does not have the money to create a decent sequel let alone a reboot themselves. My guess would be if there ever would be new animation it would come from a Mospeada sequel/retelling.

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How in 7 hells does HG stay in business on just Robotech alone? The franchise can't be bringing that much money for them. I would have thought by now that they would have been swallowed up by another or simply folded. In fact till the Robotech DVDs came out, I thought HG was long out of business.

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