507 replies to this topic

[VFTF1]

Get's in the way during battle? BASARA SAVED THE ENTIRE FREAKIN' UNIVERSE!!

Yeah...meaning - he gets in the way during battle. See, for some people, "battle" is something you are sometimes forced to do in order to achieve some good (saving the universe, the planet, the city etc), but for lots of others - "battle" is life itself - like the Zendradi and, the detiny of the Protoculture.

So, in a very real sense - Basara DID "get in the way of batle" - his songs were meant to cut the spiral of war-madness and bring peace and love :-)

Here's what I think about Basara: http://dyrl.pl/kateg...html?cat_id=144

As for the poll - the way it's structured is going to split the pro-Basarra vote...

Pete

[Ghost Train]

I would like to pretend M7 was just one of those creative re-telling of events that occur in-universe, and that the Basara character was softened to obtain a PG-13 rating for the good peace loving colonists to consume. In reality, he wore all black leather, carried a .357 magnum that he would use during concerts and to execute Protodevlin prisoners, and had a healthy dose of Chiroptera in his diet.

In reality, he died in M7 colony after a week-long binge of crack, jack, Zentradi Special K mushrooms, painkillers, and of course lots of hookers. He was found unresponsive by his bandmates with Ai Oboete imasu ka looping in the background. He was quickly rushed to a nearby hospital where he was pronounced expired. A much beloved rocker, someone had to pay and his bandmdates were all arrested on suspicion of manslaughter. Everyone was eventually let go, except Ray.

Ray L remains locked up in a maximum security prison. In recent years, some celebrities have started a "Free Ray" campaign, arguing that he was imprisoned unjustly because of the high melanin concentration found in his epidermis during the investigation.



... and next week, an effeminate looking high schooler part-time mercenary, a waitress at a Chinese restaurant, and the Galaxy fairy, what really happened... on VH1'S BEHIND THE MUSIC!

Edited by Ghost Train, 02 October 2011 - 07:12 AM.

[Killer Robot]

Get's in the way during battle? BASARA SAVED THE ENTIRE FREAKIN' UNIVERSE!!

That would almost be cool. Except that really the plot just moved the universe to where it would validate what he was doing all along. He didn't learn anything. I can't say that he didn't teach anything, but what he taught didn't really have much clear relation to peace or enlightenment: instead of music as communication he was music as confrontation, shoving his performances in front of the unwilling while barely caring about using his performances to establish actual dialogue with people, until finally they broke down to suddenly see how cool the writers thought he was. He didn't learn or grow: when his initial efforts failed he repeated them in exactly the same way until the situation changed to make his technique start working, rather than trying improve himself or figure out why it wasn't working. He didn't even rise to the occasion, so much as had occasions come to him, like a shadowboxer that has a bad guy walk into his fist through blind chance.

It's sad because a little more effort in scriptwriting could have really transformed him into a pretty inspiring protagonist, and it's not like they were lacking in screentime in that show.

[Gubaba]

That would almost be cool. Except that really the plot just moved the universe to where it would validate what he was doing all along. He didn't learn anything. I can't say that he didn't teach anything, but what he taught didn't really have much clear relation to peace or enlightenment: instead of music as communication he was music as confrontation, shoving his performances in front of the unwilling while barely caring about using his performances to establish actual dialogue with people, until finally they broke down to suddenly see how cool the writers thought he was. He didn't learn or grow: when his initial efforts failed he repeated them in exactly the same way until the situation changed to make his technique start working, rather than trying improve himself or figure out why it wasn't working. He didn't even rise to the occasion, so much as had occasions come to him, like a shadowboxer that has a bad guy walk into his fist through blind chance.

As William Blake once said...

"If the fool would persist in his folly he would become wise."

[VFTF1]

He didn't learn or grow: when his initial efforts failed he repeated them in exactly the same way until the situation changed to make his technique start working, rather than trying improve himself or figure out why it wasn't working.

I take issue with this interpretation - I think it's a stereotype that results mainly from the repetitive nature of the first 8 or so episodes of the series in which this format generally held true. But the whole series is 47 episodes - and during the series a lot of the chracters go through radical changes.

Basara himself, just to give one example, quits the band and stops singing to space monsters - going instead to medidate and discover something new about himself.

If you look at the series as a whole, there is a lot of character development.

Pete

[s001]

Oh, screw you, too.

Sorry man I forgot about you.

[s001]

Get's in the way during battle? BASARA SAVED THE ENTIRE FREAKIN' UNIVERSE!!

Yeah. Like the Power Rangers on every episode.

[Gubaba]

Sorry man I forgot about you.

Whatever, man.

...

[Keith]

He didn't learn anything? You guys really entertain me sometimes. You (not a personal you, but a general) often complain about whiny emo protagonists who go through th eusual whiny emo-protagonist circle of events. Finally you get a real hero who not only has all of his sh!t together to start with, but already knows what he has to do. Basara isn't some unsure " do I really have to fight" "I don't want to be doing this but I will find my reason" protagonists. He also isn't one of those "fighting is life, I though twhat I was doing was correct but have learned the error of my ways" antagonists. Basara is a "true" hero in that it's the rest of the universe that has to learn "his" lesson. And that's the way Macross 7 is told, with everyone else learning to see things his way, as opposed to the usual other way around.

[frothymug]

He didn't learn anything? You guys really entertain me sometimes. You (not a personal you, but a general) often complain about whiny emo protagonists who go through th eusual whiny emo-protagonist circle of events. Finally you get a real hero who not only has all of his sh!t together to start with, but already knows what he has to do. Basara isn't some unsure " do I really have to fight" "I don't want to be doing this but I will find my reason" protagonists. He also isn't one of those "fighting is life, I though twhat I was doing was correct but have learned the error of my ways" antagonists. Basara is a "true" hero in that it's the rest of the universe that has to learn "his" lesson. And that's the way Macross 7 is told, with everyone else learning to see things his way, as opposed to the usual other way around.

You bring up a good point about Basara not being the typical emo-protagonist we see in so many shows nowadays. I'm still not a big fan of him as a character, but I will admit that he does have that going for him. If it's one kind of character I despise, it's the emo-protagonist. Shinji Ikari is the sole reason I didn't watch NGE past episode 4. Basara may be annoying, but he does have his sh!t together right out of the gate.

[RyuRoots]

An autistic jerkass does not "have his sh!t together" by any stretch of the imagination. He doesn't give a damn about what's going on around him or how many people have to die for his dumbassery. It's just "Listen to my music, listen to my music!" He doesn't care if people don't like it, if it's ineffective, and is more saddened by Sivil not listening to his damned song all the way through than all the people slaughtered by her. Killer Robot was right; the universe contrives itself to make everything work out for Basara. He doesn't learn, he doesn't grow, he doesn't try anything new, he just preaches and repeats until it works, and eventually it inexplicably does. That little "journey to discover himself" might have had a LITTLE more impact if he had, y'know, CHANGED OR DEVELOPED IN ANY WAY. But he didn't, so the trip came off as token and pointless.

Also, "well, he's not emo" doesn't make Basara a good protagonist. Neither does everyone else learning his "lesson" when he doesn't have a goddamn lesson to give other than "my music is awesome and let's all be peaceful, maaaaaan". He's Kaifun with a guitar, with all of the insufferableness that suggests.

Edited by RyuRoots, 02 October 2011 - 01:04 PM.

[JB0]

It's possible to have some character development without being hardcore emo.
If we want "true heroes," let's take someone repeatedly identified as such, by his friends, his coworkers, his boss, and the narrator: Gaogaigar's Guy Shishioh.
He's sure of his path, and willing to do what needs to be done without hesitation. Similar to Basara.
But he's still a PERSON. He has a past, he responds to current events, and he has thoughts about the people around him.
Basara's past consists entirely of getting mad at a mountain for not noticing his guitar. His response to current events is to get mad because the military won't stop shooting back while he sings. His thoughts about the people around him are "Ray, fix my jet; protodevlin, listen to my song; everyone else, get out of my way."

And the universe still doesn't know what Basara's lesson IS. Just that he defeated the protodevlin, and they were trying to eat everyone.
Guy's lesson was clearer. Eating people is wrong and bad and you're going to get a giant hammer to the face if you keep it up, and as long as you have courage and friends nothing can stop you.



I'd go so far as to say Flower Girl had more going on than Basara, and she didn't even have a speaking role.
Her lesson is never give up, no matter how bad it looks. Keep trying, and someday all your hard work will be rewarded.

Edited by JB0, 02 October 2011 - 01:24 PM.

[Gubaba]

You bring up a good point about Basara not being the typical emo-protagonist we see in so many shows nowadays. I'm still not a big fan of him as a character, but I will admit that he does have that going for him. If it's one kind of character I despise, it's the emo-protagonist. Shinji Ikari is the sole reason I didn't watch NGE past episode 4. Basara may be annoying, but he does have his sh!t together right out of the gate.

Totally. As MST3K said, "Emotions are for ethnic people!"

I'd go so far as to say Flower Girl had more going on than Basara, and she didn't even have a speaking role.

Heh...you haven't heard the drama albums, have you? Seriously...you'd WISH she'd shut up...

[VF5SS]

when did it become in vogue to claim that some fictional character who doesn't do things you like to have autism :v

Heh...you haven't heard the drama albums, have you? Seriously...you'd WISH she'd shut up...

does she talk a lot about flower arranging. i figured she'd be into that.

[BeyondTheGrave]

Basara himself, just to give one example, quits the band and stops singing to space monsters - going instead to medidate and discover something new about himself.

Didn't he sing to space whales during that whole fining myself period.

Edited by BeyondTheGrave, 02 October 2011 - 03:26 PM.

[Twoducks]

He didn't learn anything? You guys really entertain me sometimes. You (not a personal you, but a general) often complain about whiny emo protagonists who go through th eusual whiny emo-protagonist circle of events. Finally you get a real hero who not only has all of his sh!t together to start with, but already knows what he has to do. Basara isn't some unsure " do I really have to fight" "I don't want to be doing this but I will find my reason" protagonists. He also isn't one of those "fighting is life, I though twhat I was doing was correct but have learned the error of my ways" antagonists. Basara is a "true" hero in that it's the rest of the universe that has to learn "his" lesson. And that's the way Macross 7 is told, with everyone else learning to see things his way, as opposed to the usual other way around.

This x2

I really have to say that Basara is one of the most original characters yet. Instead of the usual "war changed their lives", Basara was the force that changed the other characters in M7.

He goes against the very pillar of action oriented entertainment: more aggression as the only solution to aggression.

No wonder so many people hate him so fervently. That little character goes against an interpretation of reality that has been hammered to us by years of tv and movies.

[RyuRoots]

This x2

I really have to say that Basara is one of the most original characters yet. Instead of the usual "war changed their lives", Basara was the force that changed the other characters in M7.

He goes against the very pillar of action oriented entertainment: more aggression as the only solution to aggression.

No wonder so many people hate him so fervently. That little character goes against an interpretation of reality that has been hammered to us by years of tv and movies.

That's a pretty pretentious way to put it; I hate him because he's an obnoxious douchebag, not because he's different.

[Renato]

Didn't he sing to space whales during that whole fining myself period.

No, that was Dynamite 7. VFTF1 is talking about the middle part of M7, when Basara is disillusioned because he thinks perhaps singing doesn't solve everything like he thought it did, so he refuses to sing. Eventually Gigil, Mylene and Gamlin track him down urging him to sing, but it's only until Sivil takes Gigil and Basara across the stars that he finally realizes he's not singing for anyone in particular but the galaxy itself.

Honestly sometimes I think only 3 or 4 people here have watched this.

Her lesson is never give up, no matter how bad it looks. Keep trying, and someday all your hard work will be rewarded.

Those are basically the lyrics of "Try Again"... You could say she only managed to do that because Basara taught her.

[Renato]

He didn't even rise to the occasion, so much as had occasions come to him, like a shadowboxer that has a bad guy walk into his fist through blind chance.

From the first episode he ignored calls to stay in shelters and rushed out into the battlefield. If that's not rising to the occasion, what is?

Also, watch episode 5 where he's harassed all the time by biker chicks calling him a wuss singing sissy songs while they live life on the edge, until they witness him putting his life on the line.

[BeyondTheGrave]

That's a pretty pretentious way to put it; I hate him because he's an obnoxious douchebag, not because he's different.

QFT

Honestly sometimes I think only 3 or 4 people here have watched this.

Its hard to remember plot points when the main character complains about people not wanting to listen to his song.

[VF-15 Banshee]

I think we're all missing the point and that is, does Basara like the ladies? He's got Sivil and Rex and Flower Girl and others all hitting on him but it doesn't seem to faze him at all. Well except for Sivil. Oh and Mylene's crush. What's the deal?

[BeyondTheGrave]

I think we're all missing the point and that is, does Basara like the ladies? He's got Sivil and Rex and Flower Girl and others all hitting on him but it doesn't seem to faze him at all. Well except for Sivil. Oh and Mylene's crush. What's the deal?

Bad taste in men. Except for sivil she wanted his lifeforce.
Once again:

[VFTF1]

Didn't he sing to space whales during that whole fining myself period.

Yes, but it wasn't like he told the band "Ok, i quit - I'd rather sing to fish than work with you guys." He went on a soul searching journey because - as he himself would ask over and over "why isn't my music reaching their hearts?"

Maybe the fact that Bassara himself asked himself this question and spent the majority of the series trying to answer it is elluding everyone.

If it was true that beating the enemy was just a matter of schematically singing over and over until the universe eventually just changed - then the Military's music project (forgot what the group was called) would have won. The Song Birds or whatever - but they didn't.

As Bassara said during the meeting when the military tried to plan his singing attack - the song has to come from the heart or it's no use and no good.

Bassara's focus on Sivil is a case in point - as is his inadvertant effect on Gigil. He focused all his energy on turning one individual heart and eventually, like a domino effect, he opened the hearts of more and more beings.

It was a complex and deeply personal process - not a matter of repeat soundforce attacks that magically worked after a set number of episodes just for the sake of "plot."

Pete

[JB0]

Heh...you haven't heard the drama albums, have you? Seriously...you'd WISH she'd shut up...

Not sought them out, as I don't understand the language.

Is that why she was in the anime? As a hook for drama CDs?

[Keith]

A couple points. Basara didn't go on a journey because he refused to sing, he went on a journey to find sivil. As for not singing, Gepelnitch sealed his voice, he couldn't sing until Mylene broke the seal with her spiritia.

Also, no one at any point in time died because of Basara, not one single person. The "only" pilot complaining about him was Gamlin, and that was because he was such a tight-ass. None of the VF-11 squads had any issue with him being on the battlefield. If anything, he made it easier for the 7 fleet pilots to sortie, since he served as an erratic target for the Varuta squads. Any complaints about his singing & broadcasting music on the battlefield should be directed towards Macross in general. Did Minmay get the Macross pilots killed during the fight with the Bodolza fleet? Did Sheryl & Ranka get the Frontier pilots killed?

Edited by Keith, 02 October 2011 - 11:16 PM.

[RyuRoots]

A couple points. Basara didn't go on a journey because he refused to sing, he went on a journey to find sivil. As for not singing, Gepelnitch sealed his voice, he couldn't sing until Mylene broke the seal with her spiritia.

Also, no one at any point in time died because of Basara, not one single person. The "only" pilot complaining about him was Gamlin, and that was because he was such a tight-ass. None of the VF-11 squads had any issue with him being on the battlefield. If anything, he made it easier for the 7 fleet pilots to sortie, since he served as an erratic target for the Varuta squads. Any complaints about his singing & broadcasting music on the battlefield should be directed towards Macross in general. Did Minmay get the Macross pilots killed during the fight with the Bodolza fleet? Did Sheryl & Ranka get the Frontier pilots killed?

I'm not even going to bother addressing the strawman comparisons to Minmay and Sheryl. The bolded part is what I find *hilarious*. Y'know, ALL of those named, voiced VF-11 pilots who we hear the opinions of so regularly in M7.

[Keith]

I'm not even going to bother addressing the strawman comparisons to Minmay and Sheryl. The bolded part is what I find *hilarious*. Y'know, ALL of those named, voiced VF-11 pilots who we hear the opinions of so regularly in M7.

Yup, they had no issue. Even Kinryu told Gamlin to calm down & STFU about it. Bottom line, Max sanctioned it. The fact that you ignore the broadcast issue is an issue with all Macross proves your lack of argument.

[JB0]

Also, no one at any point in time died because of Basara, not one single person. The "only" pilot complaining about him was Gamlin, and that was because he was such a tight-ass. None of the VF-11 squads had any issue with him being on the battlefield. If anything, he made it easier for the 7 fleet pilots to sortie, since he served as an erratic target for the Varuta squads. Any complaints about his singing & broadcasting music on the battlefield should be directed towards Macross in general. Did Minmay get the Macross pilots killed during the fight with the Bodolza fleet? Did Sheryl & Ranka get the Frontier pilots killed?

The key difference between Basara and everyone else is... Basara's out in the middle of the battlefield getting in the way.

He's an erratic target for the varuta, but he's ALSO in the way of the good men and women of UN Spacey trying to do unto some soul-eating varuta sons of daughters before they do unto the fine citizens of City 7.

[Keith]

The key difference between Basara and everyone else is... Basara's out in the middle of the battlefield getting in the way.

He's an erratic target for the varuta, but he's ALSO in the way of the good men and women of UN Spacey trying to do unto some soul-eating varuta sons of daughters before they do unto the fine citizens of City 7.

It's called "IFF" and he shows up on it. Never once is Basara shown to be the casue of another pilot being taken out, argument rejected.

[Renato]

A couple points. Basara didn't go on a journey because he refused to sing, he went on a journey to find sivil. As for not singing, Gepelnitch sealed his voice, he couldn't sing until Mylene broke the seal with her spiritia.

Keith, you have forgotten an entire story arc.

He set out on a journey to find the reason for why he sings, that much is clear. He had already been thinking about it for several episodes, when eventually the UN Spacy captured Sivil and she managed to escape not because of his singing (though it was hinted that it MAY have started to have an effect), but because Gigil accidentally switched on the Spiritia expulsion beam of his Valk when he got shot, which happened to hit Sivil's sphere. When he noticed he had failed to awaken Sivil after hundreds of attempts, he set off on a journey to find himself. He refused to sing for several episodes after that, even when the Protodeviln were right in his face because he wanted to "test" the effects of his song. The episode where he actually lost his voice completely was an earlier one, the one where they introduced the Song Energy convertors, and he got it back in the same episode.

Here is the episode where the pressure that had been building finally gets to Basara and he decides to leave for a while.

http://www.veoh.com/...93168963wHRPh5p

At the 2:50 mark -- In response to Ray asking him what was troubling him, Basara responds:
"How to put this... I had never considered the reason for why I sing. But I think I'm close to finding the answer now. I think that's it. I want to make sure."
Ray: "I'm looking forward to it."
Basara: "Well, see ya".

At the 19:30 mark -- Sivil awakes and escapes not because of Basara's song, but rather as a combined effect of his song and Spiritia beam from Gigil's mecha.

Basara still has no proof that his song has any effect whatsoever on anything, and so he set out to find that out. Finding Sivil may have been part of the reason for his leaving, but it was not the main one.

[JB0]

It's called "IFF" and he shows up on it. Never once is Basara shown to be the casue of another pilot being taken out, argument rejected.

Oh, so IFF sensors magically prevent Basara from physically flying his plane into other people's line of fire so no one has to abort an attack because of him, or even just pay attention to some crazy in a hot-rod-red Valk darting about the battlefield on the off chance he MIGHT fly into their line of fire? I didn't realize overtechnology was so powerful!

Even if a pilot were to decide to NOT worry about accidentally shooting Basara, they still have to actually verify he's not a defender before they fire, unless they can force their computer to ignore Basara's ID code and manually flag him as neutral.
The fact that he's probably flagged as a friendly on the defenders' computers does not change the fact that he's flying wildly around the combat zone with no regard for the defensive activities of the fleet. It may actually make it worse.
He's a distraction, and his very presence on the battlefield constitutes being in the way and lowers the effectiveness of the defenses.
Whether it's stated or not, the reality is he, either directly or indirectly, causes a higher casualty rate than would otherwise be experienced.

[RyuRoots]

Yup, they had no issue. Even Kinryu told Gamlin to calm down & STFU about it. Bottom line, Max sanctioned it. The fact that you ignore the broadcast issue is an issue with all Macross proves your lack of argument.

Oh god, the fact that you actually agree to that is just...wow. "Quiet, the Captain sanctions it" doesn't mean "Every single pilot except Gamlin approves of it." It means exactly what it says. Absence of evidence != evidence of absence.

And alright, fine. It's not even an issue and the argument that it IS is frankly stupid. Minmay participates with the military in any way very few times, and the only times she does, it's a deliberately planned action. The same is true for Ranka and Sheryl (the deliberate, planned bit). Basara, as JBO points out, runs out like a dumbass and gets in people's ways. So, no, it ISN'T an issue with music in Macross in general.

Edited by RyuRoots, 03 October 2011 - 02:54 AM.

[Twoducks]

That's a pretty pretentious way to put it; I hate him because he's an obnoxious douchebag, not because he's different.

And Roy is a womanizing drunk douchebag but he follows the heroic archetypes to the letter. Hence why he is so loved. Same thing with many action heroes: they all have douchey and obnoxious behaviours or characteristics but they follow their script.

Basara is a fictional character that just takes a dump on what we have grown to expect to see the hero archetype do.

Basara has his douchey “character flaws”, but instead of going “sorry everyone to have bothered your personal sensitivities with my way of thinking, I’ll shut up now and go chuck those evil mother*&/%& with lead as is expected of me”, he goes “LISTEN TO MY SONG… AGAIN until I get it right”.

Such fervent hate for something, like the one the fictional Mr Basara generates over and over, means that what has been regarded as a deep unquestionable truth has been sullied.

[Renato]

And Roy is a womanizing drunk douchebag but he follows the heroic archetypes to the letter. Hence why he is so loved. Same thing with many action heroes: they all have douchey and obnoxious behaviours or characteristics but they follow their script.

Basara is a fictional character that just takes a dump on what we have grown to expect to see the hero archetype do.

Basara has his douchey “character flaws”, but instead of going “sorry everyone to have bothered your personal sensitivities with my way of thinking, I’ll shut up now and go chuck those evil mother*&/%& with lead as is expected of me”, he goes “LISTEN TO MY SONG… AGAIN until I get it right”.

Such fervent hate for something, like the one the fictional Mr Basara generates over and over, means that what has been regarded as a deep unquestionable truth has been sullied.

This is a good post.

Too bad this show and its lead character will forever remain controversial until the perceived unquestionable truths in question change in world consensus... But perhaps that's what makes it interesting, at least to me.

[anime52k8]

man, when did everyone suddenly become Robotech fans in here.

Edited by anime52k8, 03 October 2011 - 05:19 AM.