I May get Flamed but...

[macplus]

Watch Macross 7 with the idea that it's not a macross sequel and you'll like it, I like the characters and story for the most part but when it comes to military, mecha and the enemies I think it's a complete POS, even Max became a wimp i that case... oh well, here we go with another M7 bashing tread...

[Lotus-6]

I've noticed most fans of a given franchise don't like what the show is really about. They like whatever it is they wanted it to be or what they thought it was before, and the nostalgia.

This is very true. I take Star Wars as an example. "Fans" hated episode 1 & 2 because they wanted the original triology and the feelings it evoked. Eps 1& 2 failed utterly on this. I wouldn't think Episode 1 & 2 are bad if I've never seen Star Wars in my entire life.

Um, actually SW1 and SW2 (sw1 moreso) would have been even WORSE if it weren't for the fact that it was at least Starwars related in some way. Think about it - would you have even gone to the second one after seeing the first otherwise? They were horrible, horrible movies

macross 7, eh, I've watched some of it, and I just rlly, don't like it. It's not even that I don't like JPOP, I actually do like the music.. but I mean... the concept is a little over the top. Macross 7 is to Macross Series as G-Gundam is to Gundam. But at least G-Gundam was an alternate universe. People fighting each other by screaming songs is a little bit ridiculous if you ask me

You don't understand M7's concept then, since you've only seen some of it. Its not about people fighting by screaming at each other. Its about spiritual energy. The power of belief and faith. Singing is just a medium to express that energy. Don't know much about it, but we'll probably learn more from Macross Zero (hopefully) what's the deal with singing and powers.

I'm not goint to argue that faith and belief in a cause doesn't help you fight (or do just about anything) better, but somebody's expression of belief in their own cause in the form of singing cannot cause you to go crazy w/ convulsions and lose your own fighting edge. If they're going to get so crazy with the deviations for normalcy, they should pull a gundam and whip out another timeline for it.

Edited February 23, 2004 by Lotus-6

[CoryHolmes]

Watch Macross 7 with the idea that it's not a macross sequel and you'll like it,

Except that you can't watch it with that idea. For better or for (much) worse, Mac7 IS the direct sequel to SDF-Macross. No ifs, ands, or buts.

Macross 7 has become even more firmly cemented into the Macross world with the release of Macross Zero. Look at Sarah and her singing, how it causes the plants to bloom and levitates the stones. That's exactly the sort of magic that Macross 7 used on an episodic basis.

Macross Zero has finally stated with totality that the magical effect of music (aka Spirita from Macross 7) has always been a part of the show, going back as far as SDF-Macross and DYRL. It's changed the role of music in SDF from culture shock to an actual, physical effect akin to magic, and some of us don't like that at all.

I can't speak for anyone else, but that really detracts from SDF and Mac+ and horribly changes the universe of the show for me. It's a bad idea that I dislike intensly, and it's making me rethink my opinions of the original show (just like ANY prequel/sequel does), and not in a good way.

Some people like Macross 7, but I don't.

[wolfx]

I'm not goint to argue that faith and belief in a cause doesn't help you fight (or do just about anything) better, but somebody's expression of belief in their own cause in the form of singing cannot cause you to go crazy w/ convulsions and lose your own fighting edge. If they're going to get so crazy with the deviations for normalcy, they should pull a gundam and whip out another timeline for it.

I just thought of a funny one. What if I intercepted your military broadcast channel (or better yet, used speakerpods) and started blasting the "Barney the Purple Dinosaur Song" on it while we're in battle. Would that drive you go crazy with convulsions and make you lose your own fighting edge? I'd think so.

But seriously, the whole faith/belief thing was what Basara's idealistic character thinks. I mean, come on, he tried to sing and move the mountain. It just shows how idealistic (or stupid) Basara is. Of course his singing alone doesn't have much effect on the enemy, but later they introduced the idea that he had some innate power called Anima Spiritia, and the power can be harnessed with Dr. Chiba's devices. And then Basara becomes a brat and runs off to ponder on what he really is singing for (when he realises his singing is just for a weapon for the military).

The Anima Spiritia of the past protodevlin wars probably had other means of using their power than singing, as the power of Spiritia is more of the power of faith and the will to live, rather than the power of singing. (that's what I think anyway) The stronger the belief, the stronger the power. This is proven on numerous occasions on how certain people's spiritia increases as they fight to save their lives. And how the Jamming Birds fail so miserably since they keep screaming like wussies in battle.

SO for all those who were kinda upset towards the magic/singing thing. Don't be too upset. The way I see it, its probably not so mystical as they made it seem and its not really that deviating from the original macross. If its just singing to cause culture shock in Macross SDF, why didn't the Zentradi get culture shock at other radio/tv broadcasts that they were intercepting? Why must it only be Min May? Does she have this "anima spiritia" as well that she could cause culture shock unaided by any gadgets other than a microphone? I refer you back to Macross 7 encore, fleet of the strongest women. It was only Basara who could cause the culture shock on the Meltrandi fleet. Mylene wasn't doing much in terms of culture shocking. (and of course, max and milia were having fun culture shocking too )

My 2 cents.

[CoryHolmes]

If its just singing to cause culture shock in Macross SDF, why didn't the Zentradi get culture shock at other radio/tv broadcasts that they were intercepting?

But that did happen. Recall the three spies and their reactions to seeing the beauty pagent. And when they were inside the ship itself, they had culture shock all around.

Only later on was it changed from culture shock to something "special" that Minmay had, and in Macross 7 it was discovered that it was some weird power she could tap into called Anima Spirita.

[Radd]

I never really saw spiritua as some mystical power like that. I've just seen it as a name given to strong will and emotions. In fact, I always thought that the military and the Protodevlin trying to classify it as some mystical force was supposed to be seen as a really silly thing, as Basara is just trying to move people with his will and ideals. It's a very Herlockian concept, really. I suppose that's one reason why I like Basara.

Basara, Minmei, any musician with enough conviction and talent, any actor, any artist, could do the same thing. With the Zentradi, a more passive approach was all that was needed. The Zentradi were curious about Earth culture, since they lacked their own. Simply hearing music, and seeing earth movies and culture was enough to make the Zentradi not want to fight, but find out more, which went against their entire reason for being, as war machines for the Protoculture. Hence the shakes and whatnot.

With the Protodevlin, they weren't actively shut out from culture, but they still lacked it. Since they didn't have any preprogrammed fighting instincts, and taught to fear micronian culture, and since the Protodevlin themselves were a small group seeking life energy to feed upon, culture shock itself wasn't going to work quite so much as with the Zentradi. Hence, Basara trying to push his will and ideals upon them through song. Not just them, but all of the other characters in the show. Gamlin wasn't a big Fire Bomber fan at first. Even Mylene had a 'shoot first, ask questions later' philosophy. Heck, on the viewers even. How many people are there that didn't like M7 at first, then grew to love it? In all cases, Basara's beliefs and convictions had to work on a more personal level than the culture shock that brought large numbers of Zentradi over to the Earth forces in SW1.

It's the same sort of idea, though. Spiritua? Just a name for that faith and conviction. Not one jot more than that.

Maybe Macross Zero will say otherwise, and show it is some spiritual power. As of now, I think the 'mystical' stuff shown in Zero is something different. Possibly related, but having more to do with the Protoculture themselves. As the old Arthur C. Clark saying goes, "Any technology sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic."

[wolfx]

But that did happen. Recall the three spies and their reactions to seeing the beauty pagent. And when they were inside the ship itself, they had culture shock all around.

Yeah...but it wasn't the kind of culture shock that effected the zentraedis totally unwilling to fight. I'd say it was something mild, compared to listening to Min May sing.

Radd: I totally agree with you there, especially about your quote from Arthur C Clarke. But i'm just hoping its not something too corny. I never thought of it as magic, but they will probably say "these people's (anima spiritia?) DNA have some kinda genetic code that allows them to.....do uber powered thingos....". I don't know. But we'll find out soon enough, hopefully.

On an unrelated note, sometimes I think Basara is the illegitimate child of Minmay and Kaifun. Kaifun drilled anti-war into Basara and Minmay taught him how to sing.

[Unbeheld]

It's interesting and refreshing to hear the opinions of others (At least i'm not alone *phew*)

I guess i had my own ideas and concepts of what i'd like Macross to evolve to, and even the M+ series showed the type of futur that i would have wanted to see M develop into. Basically i expected a more mature themed series. Take back original Macross, during those days in N America cartoons were relegated to GI Joe's and transformers etc.. Joe taught moral stories to kids etc... Transformers was just a shameless ploy of toys from TV to real world, none of them gave a "realistic" feel. As in no one ever died (if you were a main char) and when someone did die it was a monumental thing.

The very first time i watched Robotech (sorry M just wasn't available back then), it was 5am and it showed on the Fox network, i was totally shocked. Here was a series that went much deeper in theme and emotion then anything i ever saw. It dealt with war, love , jealousy , death etc... and though transforming mecha fighthing, min mei singing wasn't realistic, the story development and the 'mood' made it much more real.

Fastforward to M7, i watched the first 20 (i plan to finish it all now, since someone said it gets better after 20), my first reaction was "wow wt@#$@ is this", they somehow managed to trivialize everything i liked about Macross. It honestly felt like i was watching one of those Pokemon cartoons etc...

Maybe i'm a poor critic, but M7 is definitely not a series i'd recommend to a newcomer to Macross series. I'm quite embarassed about the whole series sigh, and i SINCERLY HOPE i can have some good things to say once i finish watching the other 29 episodes.

PS: I'm not trying to stir things up, this was just my honest opinion and i don't mean to offend anyone who enjoys or enjoyed M7 a lot.

[Beware of Blast]

Don't diss on Pokemon - it teaches small children the good values (like loving and caring for their pets for one) that weren't taught to the unfortunate kids who grow up watching half-baked shows like SDF Macross or the Robotech Macross Saga. It's in Macross 7, that those unfortunate kids finally get to know better. Late bloomers who are laughing at other people, are really laughing at themselves.

[bsu legato]

Pfft....Pokemon teaches kids to keep pets confined in impossibly small containers, and to only free them to fight in perverse gladitorial combat, all for the glorification of the slave master....er, I mean "trainer."

[Agent ONE]

... they(M7) somehow managed to trivialize everything i liked about Macross. It honestly felt like i was watching one of those Pokemon cartoons ...

You should put that in your sig. M7 is truly the shame of Macross.

[bonesplit]

Before this get locked just wanted to post my opinions,

I've watched SDFM, DYRL, M+, and the first two episodes of M0. M+ kicked ass and M0 so far is ok.

With M7, I watched it with a pretty broad expectation. I really didn't like the first 7 or 8 episodes and I probably won't go back to them for some time. Yes, I already suspected that Basara could be a part of a secret development project. I found him to be really arrogant and had the typical anime male macho thing in that he doesn't answer little girls' obvious questions that probably would've explained the plot and saved the production team about 10 episodes of work. Nothing in the series is particularly surprising, but M7 is not really about plot twists, technical jargon, and seriousness. It is really about *showing* how ideals can make a possible difference, that 99% of the time history repeats the same mistakes, and maybe just once (or a few times, like in the macross universe), everyone makes the right decisions and have an understanding between each other.

Yes, it sounds incredibly corny, and M7 could've been a pretty cynical & manipulative propganda, had it not been for the fact that Basara is really NOT to be liked. He just stands for an ideal, or faith, and like any ideals, it can be either hated or loved depending on the situation and times you're in. He really is an a--hole, and if the enemy were plain normal guys, then he would've been an utter failure. Even Ray during the latter parts of the series told him that people themselves decide if they like the music, not himself.

Another thing too, is that the antagonists in all of Macross series are not one-dimensional bad guys whose sole purpose is to make the good guys look good. They all have different agendas and "winning" isn't really the end solution. In about 99% of the time in battles, even in the Macross universe, yes, killing the enemy is the strategic solution and that's a reality. Don't you ever think: what makes bad guys BAD BUYS? Did they go to The Graduate School of Evilness? No, they are just people who sees thing differently. And of course, if the bad guys were all droids commanded by one single madman, then yes, killing the dude would've been the solution. But Macross only focuses on the times when that ISN'T the case. It's aways about those rare moments when each sides getting a certain understanding of one another.

So, my point is that M7 is really about showing how faith can change things under certain circumstances. There have always been musicals and movie about the power of music and this is one of them. I never took M7 that seriously and I enjoyed it very much. It's simply fun to watch. I laugh everytime when Basara is making a fool of himself, I laugh even harder when he goes out and is the only hope of saving the universe. I enjoy his stubborness, I enjoy his craziness in the face of death. I respect his dedication like I respect William Hung in American Idol. It is not The Best Macross Ever. I felt the first third was dragging too long, and the ending was too abupt. I don't expect my friends to like it at all. But I'm okay with it.

[imode]

Yadda yadda yadda, why is it more acceptable to have a show about shooting people than singing at them, yadda yadda yadda.

When we were blaring Billy Ray Cyrus at David Koresh, we were actually assaulting them with Spritia~~~~~~~~~~~~~~!

[Basara Nekki]

Why is it neccesary to compare M7 to the other M titles? It should be judged based on it's own marets and what concept the directer/writer was shooting for. In this case despite the noted lack of high money animation for the the mecha and cap ships Kawomori hit right on the mark he was aiming for. If some people don't like what he was trying to do with this installment of Macross than fine, but don't scream at every person who hasn't seen it that it sucks. Let them watch and decide that for themselves.

As for characters everybody will have their favs. Mine is obvious. And everybody will have their least favs(Mylane just sucked, and they really didn't need to add a female vocal to Hummingbird anyway). Oppinion is everything.

[Angel's Fury]

Yadda yadda yadda, why is it more acceptable to have a show about shooting people than singing at them, yadda yadda yadda.

When we were blaring Billy Ray Cyrus at David Koresh, we were actually assaulting them with Spritia~~~~~~~~~~~~~~!

[Keith]

It was indeed singing that initially caused culture shock, but it wasn't just culture shock that brought down the Zentradi. Culture shock was an initial tool used to knock down the Zentradi's defenses, but it was the desire to beocme a part of that culture that caused defections within Britai's ranks, which in turn caused Britai to form a treaty with the Macross, and finally gave Earth enough firepower to stand up against Bodolza.

Without that, the shock would have simply worn off, & the Zentradi would have fully whiped out everyone. That's the basis Macross 7 works off of, not trying to shock people, but actually emotionally moving them to show them another way. Now just what about that makes Basara an a-hole? How is he anymore an a-hole than Isamu for that matter? Aside from not being a letch, both share fundimental traits, it's just that one chooses to shoot, while the other chooses to sing.

[JB0]

I like Macross 7.

I can see why some people wouldn't, though.

But it's just diffrent. It doesn't just suck, and anyone who says it does is just closed-minded.

[Sundown]

I don't buy the "you're not a Macross fan unless you like Mac 7" bit. Some of us were Macross fans long before Mac 7 was created. And stayed Macross fans after Mac+. Just because Kawamori decided afterwards to pump out something decidedly not in line with our expectations, our tastes, and our preferences, and we don't automatically eat it up... doesn't make us any less "real Macross fans".

For what it's worth, I did enjoy watching parts of Mac 7... most of it involved the character development. But the fight scenes and the enemies made me gag. Only part I *really* dug was when Millia took up her old VF-1J and proceded to kick hind. Mmm. Millia. VF-1. Short hair.

And someone singing on the bridge of the SDF-1 would be as silly as someone singing in a Valkyrie... if the SDF-1 had boobs, was painted in garish colors and racing stripes, and its main cannon were "Spiritia Speaker Booms".

Actually that's kind of cool, for how *way* over the top that'd be. Problem is, Mac 7 isn't just about laughing at itself. It actually asks you to take certain things seriously, then gives you Valk boobies.

-Al

[JB0]

Actually that's kind of cool, for how *way* over the top that'd be. Problem is, Mac 7 isn't just about laughing at itself. It actually asks you to take certain things seriously, then gives you Valk boobies.

Heh.

[wolfx]

I don't buy the "you're not a Macross fan unless you like Mac 7" bit. Some of us were Macross fans long before Mac 7 was created. And stayed Macross fans after Mac+. Just because Kawamori decided afterwards to pump out something decidedly not in line with our expectations, our tastes, and our preferences, and we don't automatically eat it up... doesn't make us any less "real Macross fans".

I didn't want to judge people on who's a "real fan" or not. Maybe I should rephrase it. Probably "hardcore fans" ? Again, I take Star Wars 1&2 as an example. We all know how crap the shows are. SW Fans know how crap it was. But its probably the hardcore fans who stood by it, just because its Star Wars. Regular fans who loved the old triology were disappointed with 1&2 and how different it was from 4,5,6. I apply the same situation here in Macross SDF right up to Macross 7.

I seem to be the former in regards to Macross 7. I just loved Macross and was more willing to love anything Macross, even 7. Sure I was kinda disappointed at 1st, and then I tried to love it. And you know what, eventually I did.

BOMBAH!!!

[Radd]

I'm gonna go with JBO and Sundown on this one. I don't think everyone should like M7 simply because it's Macross. Heck, I don't like Macross II. I have my reasons just as those that do like it have their own reasons. I'm cool with that.

I also have nothing against people telling others that M7 sucks. That's their opinion, and people asking about it really should hear both sides. Of course, to really know they should simply watch it themselves. Make their own choice on the matter.

[Plastik Missle]

I like Macross 7. Heck I love it.

I admit at first I only bought the M7 DVDs just to complete my Macross collection. I had seen Galaxy is Calling Me and Dynamite and wasn't too impressed, and I was prepeared for a disappointment. The first episodes dragged. Really dragged. Basara was annoying as hell, battle animation looked like crap, and Planet Dance was starting to grate on my nerves. But somewhere I realized I was starting to like the show. Heck, even Basara grew on me, curiously around the time Gamlin started liking him. And you have to admit seeing Mylia in action with her old VF-1 was great. Reminds me how good the Gerwalk mode of the VF-1 looks in comparison to the other valks.

Granted, it's not a perfect show and it might not be for everyone (although everyone should at least give it a shot). I miss the grittiness of good ol' SDF, and the feeling of impending doom, and it's really hard to look the other way when something embarrassing like Battle 7's 'fingers' is shown on screen. But all in all, I'm Macross 7 fan, if that doesn't make me 'Hardcore', so be it.

[treatment]

I don't buy the "you're not a Macross fan unless you like Mac 7" bit.  Some of us were Macross fans long before Mac 7 was created.  And stayed Macross fans after Mac+.  Just because Kawamori decided afterwards to pump out something decidedly not in line with our expectations, our tastes, and our preferences, and we don't automatically eat it up... doesn't make us any less "real Macross fans".

I didn't want to judge people on who's a "real fan" or not. Maybe I should rephrase it. Probably "hardcore fans" ? Again, I take Star Wars 1&2 as an example. We all know how crap the shows are. SW Fans know how crap it was. But its probably the hardcore fans who stood by it, just because its Star Wars. Regular fans who loved the old triology were disappointed with 1&2 and how different it was from 4,5,6. I apply the same situation here in Macross SDF right up to Macross 7.

I seem to be the former in regards to Macross 7. I just loved Macross and was more willing to love anything Macross, even 7. Sure I was kinda disappointed at 1st, and then I tried to love it. And you know what, eventually I did.

BOMBAH!!!

errr, no.

Most of the people here in MW-forum are hard-core fans.

and most of us, iirc, still don't like M7. Duke Togo used to have a poll stuff showing how MW-members (old-board and new-board) felt about M7 or something. Check with him, I guess.

[bob joe mac]

errr, no.

Most of the people here in MW-forum are hard-core fans.

and most of us, iirc, still don't like M7. Duke Togo used to have a poll stuff showing how MW-members (old-board and new-board) felt about M7 or something. Check with him, I guess.

yeah we had a poll way back, where the question was asked what you would prefer the macross direction to be taken in or somethin like that and the results were something like

80% M+

20% M7

(correct me if I was wrong)

now don't get this confused that does not state if you liked M7 or not just how you prefer your macross to be.

[Duke Togo]

Macross 7 like/dislike was 50/50. When asked if they prefered the direction Macross Plus took the franchise as opposed to 7, it was about 80/20 in favor of Plus.

[wolfx]

errr, no.

Most of the people here in MW-forum are hard-core fans.

and most of us, iirc, still don't like M7. Duke Togo used to have a poll stuff showing how MW-members (old-board and new-board) felt about M7 or something. Check with him, I guess.

I don't wanna argue the semantics , ok? You can call yourself hardcore fan or uber hardcore fan. But a person who likes Macross just because its Macross, even if its crap is more a rabid fan than you are, if you don't like it. That's just all i'm trying to say. Its senseless, of course. But that's what fans, which are short for fanatics, are. Personally, I am very afraid of Trekkies.

Personally I don't consider myself a hardcore Macross fan. I don't particularly laud Macross 7, just like most people here who don't mind it but wouldn't introduce it to friends. So I guess I don't have the same uber hate towards Macross 7 that 50% of MW does. That's all.

[Mechafan]

I am a hard-core fan because I like all of the Macross shows because it was Macross.

Macross 7 was not as outstanding as most would agree but still likeable. The first 20 or so eps with Basara singing did annoy me. It grew on me and I did start to like it. When he started singing Power To The Dream his singing was more bearable. I take that biker Rex over Minmay or Lisa any day. It is just personal preference to me. It was good to see Max and Miriya again.

[Sundown]

I didn't want to judge people on who's a "real fan" or not. Maybe I should rephrase it. Probably "hardcore fans" ? Again, I take Star Wars 1&2 as an example. We all know how crap the shows are. SW Fans know how crap it was. But its probably the hardcore fans who stood by it, just because its Star Wars.

Actually, I'd say the opposite. It was some of the hardcore fans that panned Ep.1 and 2 at length and in no uncertain terms. The ones that grew up eating, breathing, and crapping Star Wars. And loved it because lo', it was good. Those who ate up lots of the EU and were yet discerning enough to know poop when they saw it.

And boy did they. You gotta be "hardcore" in some respect to have such a vehement opinion about something one way or another. Giving a real damn at all is indication of "hardcore" to me, not the willingness to take whatever that's got Kawamari or Lucas stamped on it.

-Al

[wolfx]

Actually, I'd say the opposite. It was some of the hardcore fans that panned Ep.1 and 2 at length and in no uncertain terms. The ones that grew up eating, breathing, and crapping Star Wars. And loved it because lo', it was good. Those who ate up lots of the EU and were yet discerning enough to know poop when they saw it.

And boy did they. You gotta be "hardcore" in some respect to have such a vehement opinion about something one way or another. Giving a real damn at all is indication of "hardcore" to me, not the willingness to take whatever that's got Kawamari or Lucas stamped on it.

-Al

Again, you're arguing semantics on the definition of "hardcore fans". You're totally missing the point.

But its ok. I've said what I wanna say.