Super Macross Mecha Fun Time Discussion Thread!

[pengbuzz]

On 7/21/2025 at 9:33 AM, talonlm said:

The PMC you want are the ones that makes the least noise.  If they're in business and you don't hear about them, they're doing a good job.  I would also point out that, in the Macross universe, there is a driving need for these massively well-armed PMCs as there are still huge fleets of Zentraedi still out there, doing their thing.  These PMCs may have been hired by a backwater colony or otherwise not on the NUNS' radars--they could be the only thing holding the line until NUNS (or whomever) comes riding over the hill to save the day.  

The one overriding problem with a PMC vs. a Zentraedi force is that even the smaller Branch Fleets consist of thousands of ships.  The larger Main Fleets are composed of millions of vessels, and all of these fleets have some pretty heavy weaponry that comes with them, both ship-mounted as well as launched mecha/ fighters (As @Seto Kaiba has pointed out in previous posts). Given that UN Spacy/ NUNS has had one hell of a time even defeating a smaller fleet in times of crisis and that most PMC's are not all that large or well-equipped as NUNS, I seriously doubt that they would do much to "hold the line" against much except a small rouge force of malcontent Zentraedi or pirates.

Edited Tuesday at 04:28 PM by pengbuzz

[Sildani]

Been a while since I've been to this thread - how many keyboards have you gone through, Seto? 🙂

[Seto Kaiba]

7 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

The one overriding problem with a PMC vs. a Zentraedi force is that even the smaller Branch Fleets consist of thousands of ships.  

Hundreds, not thousands.  We don't have a firm size range, but the one branch fleet we have definite numbers for (Vrlitwhai's 67th branch fleet in the TV series) was implied to be on the large side for a branch fleet and consisted of 1,213 ships.

Not that there's a huge amount of practical difference in being outnumbered hundreds to one as opposed to thousands to one in a stand-up fight.

 

7 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

The larger Main Fleets are composed of millions of vessels, and all of these fleets have some pretty heavy weaponry that comes with them, both ship-mounted as well as launched mecha/ fighters (As @Seto Kaiba has pointed out in previous posts). Given that UN Spacy/ NUNS has had one hell of a time even defeating a smaller fleet in times of crisis and that most PMC's are not all that large or well-equipped as NUNS, I seriously doubt that they would do much to "hold the line" against much except a small rouge force of malcontent Zentraedi or pirates.

Indeed.  Even in 2058, an armed confrontation with a branch fleet was Serious Business even for the largest and best-equipped emigrant fleets like Macross Frontier.  The sort of emergency situation that results in a major mobilization of the New UN Forces and any supporting PMCs alongside them, as seen in Macross the Ride.  The sort of affair that you dust off the Special Forces for.

If we take Master File at its word (and a grain of salt is strongly encouraged) even the largest emigrant fleets are about 900 ships and a main fleet is the sort of thing where you're not just sending in the special forces... even a small main fleet of a few hundred thousand ships is a "get every fighter, every ship, and every reaction weapon that every planet and fleet in range can spare" sort of occasion.  Like what the New UN Forces did in response to the main fleet that bombarded Spica III.

 

 

4 hours ago, Sildani said:

Been a while since I've been to this thread - how many keyboards have you gone through, Seto? 🙂

Fewer than usual... those Logitech G815s hold up commendably well.

Edited Tuesday at 11:38 PM by Seto Kaiba

[talonlm]

16 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Not so much?

Each emigrant fleet has its own New UN Forces escort detail that protects it in transit and becomes the local New UN Forces once they find a planet to settle on.  The only exception we know of is Macross 29, which deliberately disbanded its defense force after adopting an official policy of pacifist total nonaggression.   <<SNIP>>

Hence 'backwater colony.'  The emigrant fleets are designed with firepower necessary to hold threats off long enough to allow the main fleet to escape.  Colonial defense--particularly of small colonies--shouldn't call for a significant NUNS deployment unless there's a known threat.  PMCs would be ideal for running off criminal elements (assuming, of course, they're not the criminal element) or at least being able to buy time should a more significant threat come up.  They wouldn't need top-notch equipment for that--just enough sense to know when to fight and when to call for help.  Better (for NUNS), the colony would be paying.

I suspect the companies providing the funding for all these ships, Valkyries and equipment are going to want a return on their investment.  The PMCs involved would mainly technical personnel--pilots, maintainers, crewdogs, shiphandlers and the like.  (Doorkickers, it would seem, do not seem to be in demand in Macross.)  The guys these PMCs will hire for these jobs will either be trained in house from the ground up, or they'll be coordinating with folks exiting the services and training them to the standard they want.  While I am certain those PMCs vary in quality--they do IRL, after all--none of these companies will want to lose valuable assets to incompetence.  I doubt they're going to hire the nearest drunk wearing a campaign hat at the local VFW.   Those PMCs will take calculated risks for profits--not foolish ones.

 

7 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

The one overriding problem with a PMC vs. a Zentraedi force is that even the smaller Branch Fleets consist of thousands of ships.  The larger Main Fleets are composed of millions of vessels, and all of these fleets have some pretty heavy weaponry that comes with them, both ship-mounted as well as launched mecha/ fighters (As @Seto Kaiba has pointed out in previous posts). Given that UN Spacy/ NUNS has had one hell of a time even defeating a smaller fleet in times of crisis and that most PMC's are not all that large or well-equipped as NUNS, I seriously doubt that they would do much to "hold the line" against much except a small rouge force of malcontent Zentraedi or pirates.

Mercenary companies aren't noted for sacrifice--only professionalism so long as the profit is there (note the comment on risk above).  Wise leadership would be prepared for that.  Additionally, one would hope the leadership of a small colony wouldn't be foolish enough to try to stare down a main fleet.  Terrorist bands, pirates and small Zentraedi fleet elements are about the only threats PMCs should be tasked to handle.  Anything more should drive either a mass evacuation or a major force deployment by the NUNS with no guarantee of victory. 

 

[pengbuzz]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Hundreds, not thousands.  We don't have a firm size range, but the one branch fleet we have definite numbers for (Vrlitwhai's 67th branch fleet in the TV series) was implied to be on the large side for a branch fleet and consisted of 1,213 ships.

Not that there's a huge amount of practical difference in being outnumbered hundreds to one as opposed to thousands to one in a stand-up fight.

Sorry, my source indicated thousands; maybe I need better sources.

Seriously though: I agree that overkill by several hundred is about as bad as overkill by thousands. I guess it would just be a preference of how many smithereens you'd prefer to be in.  😛

 

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Indeed.  Even in 2058, an armed confrontation with a branch fleet was Serious Business even for the largest and best-equipped emigrant fleets like Macross Frontier.  The sort of emergency situation that results in a major mobilization of the New UN Forces and any supporting PMCs alongside them, as seen in Macross the Ride.  The sort of affair that you dust off the Special Forces for.

If we take Master File at its word (and a grain of salt is strongly encouraged) even the largest emigrant fleets are about 900 ships and a main fleet is the sort of thing where you're not just sending in the special forces... even a small main fleet of a few hundred thousand ships is a "get every fighter, every ship, and every reaction weapon that every planet and fleet in range can spare" sort of occasion.  Like what the New UN Forces did in response to the main fleet that bombarded Spica III.

An all hands on deck, the $#!7's about to hit the fan event. FRMville.

[Seto Kaiba]

18 minutes ago, talonlm said:

Hence 'backwater colony.'  The emigrant fleets are designed with firepower necessary to hold threats off long enough to allow the main fleet to escape.  Colonial defense--particularly of small colonies--shouldn't call for a significant NUNS deployment unless there's a known threat.

So... pretty much as a rule, when a habitable planet is located and colonized in Macross it's an emigrant fleet that found the planet and colonized it.  That's what emigrant fleets do.  It's kind of their entire thing, really.

Those emigrant fleets raise, fund, and maintain their own local New UN Forces defense forces that protect them in transit as well as after they locate a planet and settle down.  The size and composition of those forces varies wildly based on the generation of emigrant fleet and preferences of its government, but the vast majority of planets have at least a few New UN Spacy warships chilling out in orbit for defense.  Most have dozens if not hundreds.  

Even New UN Government member worlds that weren't, strictly speaking, colonized by Humanity because they already had native sentient lifeforms have such defense forces, and some maintain additional paramilitary forces for law enforcement purposes like Zola's anti-poaching Zola Patrol and Uroboros's anti-piracy Hunter's Guild.

 

 

18 minutes ago, talonlm said:

PMCs would be ideal for running off criminal elements (assuming, of course, they're not the criminal element) or at least being able to buy time should a more significant threat come up.  They wouldn't need top-notch equipment for that--just enough sense to know when to fight and when to call for help.  Better (for NUNS), the colony would be paying.

Yeah, that's pretty much the rationale behind the Hunter's Guild on Uroboros.

Though the Uroboros Hunter's Guild isn't a PMC, it's a licensing and regulatory body for freelance bounty hunters and similar... basically your standard JRPG Adventurer's Guild but dressed up in sci-fi suitable terms.

'course, it's worth noting that the emigrant fleet's/planet's government is already footing the bill to maintain the fleet's/planet's local New UN Forces.

 

 

18 minutes ago, talonlm said:

I suspect the companies providing the funding for all these ships, Valkyries and equipment are going to want a return on their investment.  The PMCs involved would mainly technical personnel--pilots, maintainers, crewdogs, shiphandlers and the like.  (Doorkickers, it would seem, do not seem to be in demand in Macross.)  The guys these PMCs will hire for these jobs will either be trained in house from the ground up, or they'll be coordinating with folks exiting the services and training them to the standard they want.  While I am certain those PMCs vary in quality--they do IRL, after all--none of these companies will want to lose valuable assets to incompetence.  I doubt they're going to hire the nearest drunk wearing a campaign hat at the local VFW.   Those PMCs will take calculated risks for profits--not foolish ones.

Of course.  These PMCs are corporate subsidiaries that have to turn a profit in order to stay in business and often remain enmeshed in providing services to their parent companies.

Mind you, because manpower is scarce and demand is high they do seem to be willing to take risks on people who have skills but also have problematic habits, personalities, or histories.  This much is explicitly stated, and we of course do get examples to go with it.  Even SMS, the top tier PMC, is hiring folks who got BCD'd out of the service and Xaos is even less choosy... hiring several characters who are described as lazy and guilty of chronic tardiness and absenteeism, a mentally unstable pilot, and a commander with a rather checkered past and a long history of losing battles.

There's definitely an element of suspect judgement in some of their decisions, particularly Xaos's in Macross Delta.  Such as allowing a new recruit to repeatedly blow off training without consequences and disable safety features in a training aircraft after skipping training on the ground, a rather heinous breach of common sense that nearly got their new recruit killed in the expensive and messy crash of a dedicated training aircraft.

 

18 minutes ago, talonlm said:

Mercenary companies aren't noted for sacrifice--only professionalism so long as the profit is there (note the comment on risk above).  Wise leadership would be prepared for that.  Additionally, one would hope the leadership of a small colony wouldn't be foolish enough to try to stare down a main fleet.  Terrorist bands, pirates and small Zentraedi fleet elements are about the only threats PMCs should be tasked to handle.  Anything more should drive either a mass evacuation or a major force deployment by the NUNS with no guarantee of victory. 

Well, yes... whether such wise leadership is actually available is another matter entirely.

However, PMCs aren't being hired to take on Zentradi fleets on their own or anything like that.  From what we see and what we're told, when they're not being hired by their parent company to protect its own assets and personnel they're providing support, training, and/or field testing services in support of the local New UN Forces.  They're not a replacement for said local New UN Forces, merely a supplement to them.

[Big s]

I’ve been rewatching Frontier on Hulu and noticed something I either forgot or didn’t pay attention to when I watched it as a bootleg years ago. It was the episode where they go down to that planet and Temjin hijacks a Queadluun Rhea. The thing I didn’t notice was that the Zentraedi weren’t just in movie style designs, but a mix. Most including seemed like they were wearing movie style body armor and those seemed to be with Temjin’s revolt. The others mostly had Tv style light body armor and maybe a guy or two wearing long coats like in the og show.

I guess I had always assumed they just went for Dyrl designs for them from 7 on. But this kinda threw me off a bit. Was wondering if there’s an explanation behind all this or not?

[Master Dex]

The explanation is basically the old Kawamori standard: All versions are true, from a certain point of view. When every entry is a dramatization of that unseen real events the designs can and will go back and forth and change multiple times. Generally the DYRL stuff is more popular, and it's supposedly also newer (which is why it's used in the in universe version of the movie, they used newer tech for a historical film because all the old stuff was not available anymore).

It's not that most satisfying answer admittedly but it is an answer lol.

[Big s]

1 hour ago, Master Dex said:

The explanation is basically the old Kawamori standard: All versions are true, from a certain point of view. When every entry is a dramatization of that unseen real events the designs can and will go back and forth and change multiple times. Generally the DYRL stuff is more popular, and it's supposedly also newer (which is why it's used in the in universe version of the movie, they used newer tech for a historical film because all the old stuff was not available anymore).

It's not that most satisfying answer admittedly but it is an answer lol.

I kinda figured that, but was just wondering if maybe there’s was something more to it, like certain fleets had a different uniform or something. I guess not

[Seto Kaiba]

4 hours ago, Big s said:

I guess I had always assumed they just went for Dyrl designs for them from 7 on. But this kinda threw me off a bit. Was wondering if there’s an explanation behind all this or not?

Nah, they've been mixing and matching versions of events and designs pretty much the entire time.

Macross runs on Broad Strokes Continuity, which Kawamori has sometimes attempted to explain as all Macross titles being dramatizations that emphasize or deemphasize parts of an unseen "true" history or that they're all equally true.  In practical terms, it just means Macross has a multiple choice approach to the past and that designs from all versions coexist so they can use whatever they feel best fits the new project they're working on.

We saw a fair bit of this in Macross 7, where the in-universe Lynn Minmay Story special that Fire Bomber was hired to work on mixed and matched a DYRL Vrlitwhai and a TV Quamzin, and of course the in-story version of DYRL? having scenes that aren't in the real version like Max and Milia's wedding.  It's very prominent in Macross Delta as well, where Berger Stone's historical summation shows things like the TV series ending of Frontier, but with Alto using the YF-29.

[pengbuzz]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Nah, they've been mixing and matching versions of events and designs pretty much the entire time.

Macross runs on Broad Strokes Continuity, which Kawamori has sometimes attempted to explain as all Macross titles being dramatizations that emphasize or deemphasize parts of an unseen "true" history or that they're all equally true.  In practical terms, it just means Macross has a multiple choice approach to the past and that designs from all versions coexist so they can use whatever they feel best fits the new project they're working on.

We saw a fair bit of this in Macross 7, where the in-universe Lynn Minmay Story special that Fire Bomber was hired to work on mixed and matched a DYRL Vrlitwhai and a TV Quamzin, and of course the in-story version of DYRL? having scenes that aren't in the real version like Max and Milia's wedding.  It's very prominent in Macross Delta as well, where Berger Stone's historical summation shows things like the TV series ending of Frontier, but with Alto using the YF-29.

Canon meet Wheel of Fortune

[Graham]

On 7/18/2025 at 9:52 PM, guyxxed said:

I actually agree with that sentiment, and it's what led me to start playing around with what a NUNS version of the VF-25 might look like.  I get the idea that a screen full of "hero" valks is visually confusing, but I think the way Delta handled it with differently colored versions for protagonists vs cannon fodder was more than adequate.  And, like you say, the original did just fine with everyone in the same plane.

That's awesome. I would 100% buy a DX of that.

[Seto Kaiba]

8 hours ago, Graham said:

That's awesome. I would 100% buy a DX of that.

We need to see if someone can stealthily drop this on Bandai's desk... because I doubt we're the only ones who'd look at this and say "Take my money, Bandai!"

 

11 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Canon meet Wheel of Fortune

In practice, you could say it's a typically polite Japanese way of saying "It's my story and I'll do what I want." 😆

Kawamori's not going to let himself be locked into a single version of the narrative, even if official publications do generally preference the TV series version over movie versions for timelines and such.  He'll pick whatever he thinks best fits the new story he's trying to tell and run with that.

[pengbuzz]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

We need to see if someone can stealthily drop this on Bandai's desk... because I doubt we're the only ones who'd look at this and say "Take my money, Bandai!"

 

*begins plotting*

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

 

In practice, you could say it's a typically polite Japanese way of saying "It's my story and I'll do what I want." 😆

Kawamori's not going to let himself be locked into a single version of the narrative, even if official publications do generally preference the TV series version over movie versions for timelines and such.  He'll pick whatever he thinks best fits the new story he's trying to tell and run with that.

Kawamori: "Up yours, please. Thank you very much."

[Seto Kaiba]

I wouldn't mind seeing a version of that in the "Rim World Model" colors used for the VF-171s in Macross Delta either.

It's close-ish to the standard CF khaki for the VF-25A but not all the way there.

[Master Dex]

30 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I wouldn't mind seeing a version of that in the "Rim World Model" colors used for the VF-171s in Macross Delta either.

It's close-ish to the standard CF khaki for the VF-25A but not all the way there.

Though Brisingr would be using that color on the Kairos I'd think.

[TehPW]

Seto: Where is it stated that the Destroid Cheyenne II's on the MQ and ME-class ships are drone/slaved to a Fire Control system on the ships?

[Seto Kaiba]

2 minutes ago, TehPW said:

Seto: Where is it stated that the Destroid Cheyenne II's on the MQ and ME-class ships are drone/slaved to a Fire Control system on the ships?

Its Macross Chronicle Mechanic Sheet mentions that they can be/are remotely controlled from the warship side instead of manually operated.

[TehPW]

hmm... is that a IRL aspect of how drones are used in services (like the Globe Hawk)? or this a SYB2202 rational: They literally don't have the crews to fully man those Class-D ships...?

[guyxxed]

12 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I wouldn't mind seeing a version of that in the "Rim World Model" colors used for the VF-171s in Macross Delta either.

It's close-ish to the standard CF khaki for the VF-25A but not all the way there.

Funny you should mention that.  😉  When I started working on the Al Shahal map, I made this variant to go along with it, though I quickly dropped it since the local NUNS are probably too poor to afford it.  I then switched it to a "Royal Guard" scheme as a private unit for a rich local family.

[Seto Kaiba]

11 hours ago, TehPW said:

hmm... is that a IRL aspect of how drones are used in services (like the Globe Hawk)? or this a SYB2202 rational: They literally don't have the crews to fully man those Class-D ships...?

Modern military drone aircraft like the MQ-1 Predator or RQ-4 Global Hawk are remotely controlled in the most conventional sense.  The plane has little-to-no autonomous function and virtually all aspects of flight are radio controlled from the ground by a crew of ~3 people (a pilot, a sensor operator, and a mission controller).

Military-use drone aircraft in Macross are mostly computer-controlled.  Rather than having a ground crew managing every aspect of the aircraft by remote control, most aspects of the drone's operation are instead managed by an onboard AI control system.  By law, most unmanned fighters are restricted to semi-autonomous AI control.  There is still some guidance and control provided by a ground crew in terms of identifying destinations, routes, mission parameters, target categories, permission to engage, etc.  Some heavily restricted types are fully-autonomous, able to continue operating without human intervention or direction should control be cut off (or never received).

In this case, though... I think what they're referring to is that the Cheyenne II's are being plugged into the ship's own air defense network and operating as an unmanned gun turret like a Phalanx CIWS.  Feeding them target criteria and otherwise letting the onboard radar and control computers do all the heavy lifting.

[TG Remix]

The Cheyenne talk does make me wonder, the original ones in Zero were stationed as anti-aircraft interception units on Navy ships if I'm not mistaken. Would the ones that were that boarded the CVN-99 Asuka make more sense belonging to the UN Navy despite the UN Spacy marking? And maybe this is a general thing with ADR series like the Defender, but I wonder if there was actual merit to design complicated robots specifically for that role when you can have really strong guns attached to the ship.

Edited 12 hours ago by TG Remix

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, TG Remix said:

The Cheyenne talk does make me wonder, the original ones in Zero were stationed as anti-aircraft interception units on Navy ships if I'm not mistaken. Would the ones that were that boarded the CVN-99 Asuka make more sense belonging to the UN Navy despite the UN Spacy marking?

In Macross Zero Ep1, the ship's badge for the CVN-99 Asuka II seen on the back wall of the briefing room (@13:20) shows her affiliation is the UN Spacy rather than the UN Navy.

Possibly/presumably because she was involved in the business of planetary defense and serving as both a mobile testbed for OTM and a training center for UN Spacy personnel who were learning the basics of Variable Fighter (and possibly Destroid) operations.  The Destroids, like the Valkyries, may have been Spacy property used to train personnel in the basics before proper production models became available.

Variable Fighter Master File: VF-0 Phoenix does present an alternate version of the ship's badge that presents a UN Navy affiliation instead.

 

2 hours ago, TG Remix said:

And maybe this is a general thing with ADR series like the Defender, but I wonder if there was actual merit to design complicated robots specifically for that role when you can have really strong guns attached to the ship.

Given that most later space warships opted for simpler and smaller beam and missile CIWS turrets, apparently not in a purely ship-based air defense context.

The Destroids of the First Space War and original Macross series were built in expectation of use in a land war.  The Defender was a self-propelled anti-aircraft gun that was meant to protect a larger mobile Destroid force from attack by aircraft.  As it happened, the Zentradi didn't really do land wars in general so the Defenders on the ground never got to even see the enemy before being obliterated and the ones in space were stuck as overcomplicated CIWS turrets.

[Seto Kaiba]

14 hours ago, guyxxed said:

Funny you should mention that.  😉  When I started working on the Al Shahal map, I made this variant to go along with it, though I quickly dropped it since the local NUNS are probably too poor to afford it.  I then switched it to a "Royal Guard" scheme as a private unit for a rich local family.

That scheme looks pretty cool too.