Super Macross Mecha Fun Time Discussion Thread!

[pengbuzz]

On 7/21/2025 at 9:33 AM, talonlm said:

The PMC you want are the ones that makes the least noise.  If they're in business and you don't hear about them, they're doing a good job.  I would also point out that, in the Macross universe, there is a driving need for these massively well-armed PMCs as there are still huge fleets of Zentraedi still out there, doing their thing.  These PMCs may have been hired by a backwater colony or otherwise not on the NUNS' radars--they could be the only thing holding the line until NUNS (or whomever) comes riding over the hill to save the day.  

The one overriding problem with a PMC vs. a Zentraedi force is that even the smaller Branch Fleets consist of thousands of ships.  The larger Main Fleets are composed of millions of vessels, and all of these fleets have some pretty heavy weaponry that comes with them, both ship-mounted as well as launched mecha/ fighters (As @Seto Kaiba has pointed out in previous posts). Given that UN Spacy/ NUNS has had one hell of a time even defeating a smaller fleet in times of crisis and that most PMC's are not all that large or well-equipped as NUNS, I seriously doubt that they would do much to "hold the line" against much except a small rouge force of malcontent Zentraedi or pirates.

Edited July 22 by pengbuzz

[Sildani]

Been a while since I've been to this thread - how many keyboards have you gone through, Seto? 🙂

[Seto Kaiba]

7 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

The one overriding problem with a PMC vs. a Zentraedi force is that even the smaller Branch Fleets consist of thousands of ships.  

Hundreds, not thousands.  We don't have a firm size range, but the one branch fleet we have definite numbers for (Vrlitwhai's 67th branch fleet in the TV series) was implied to be on the large side for a branch fleet and consisted of 1,213 ships.

Not that there's a huge amount of practical difference in being outnumbered hundreds to one as opposed to thousands to one in a stand-up fight.

 

7 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

The larger Main Fleets are composed of millions of vessels, and all of these fleets have some pretty heavy weaponry that comes with them, both ship-mounted as well as launched mecha/ fighters (As @Seto Kaiba has pointed out in previous posts). Given that UN Spacy/ NUNS has had one hell of a time even defeating a smaller fleet in times of crisis and that most PMC's are not all that large or well-equipped as NUNS, I seriously doubt that they would do much to "hold the line" against much except a small rouge force of malcontent Zentraedi or pirates.

Indeed.  Even in 2058, an armed confrontation with a branch fleet was Serious Business even for the largest and best-equipped emigrant fleets like Macross Frontier.  The sort of emergency situation that results in a major mobilization of the New UN Forces and any supporting PMCs alongside them, as seen in Macross the Ride.  The sort of affair that you dust off the Special Forces for.

If we take Master File at its word (and a grain of salt is strongly encouraged) even the largest emigrant fleets are about 900 ships and a main fleet is the sort of thing where you're not just sending in the special forces... even a small main fleet of a few hundred thousand ships is a "get every fighter, every ship, and every reaction weapon that every planet and fleet in range can spare" sort of occasion.  Like what the New UN Forces did in response to the main fleet that bombarded Spica III.

 

 

4 hours ago, Sildani said:

Been a while since I've been to this thread - how many keyboards have you gone through, Seto? 🙂

Fewer than usual... those Logitech G815s hold up commendably well.

Edited July 22 by Seto Kaiba

[talonlm]

16 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Not so much?

Each emigrant fleet has its own New UN Forces escort detail that protects it in transit and becomes the local New UN Forces once they find a planet to settle on.  The only exception we know of is Macross 29, which deliberately disbanded its defense force after adopting an official policy of pacifist total nonaggression.   <<SNIP>>

Hence 'backwater colony.'  The emigrant fleets are designed with firepower necessary to hold threats off long enough to allow the main fleet to escape.  Colonial defense--particularly of small colonies--shouldn't call for a significant NUNS deployment unless there's a known threat.  PMCs would be ideal for running off criminal elements (assuming, of course, they're not the criminal element) or at least being able to buy time should a more significant threat come up.  They wouldn't need top-notch equipment for that--just enough sense to know when to fight and when to call for help.  Better (for NUNS), the colony would be paying.

I suspect the companies providing the funding for all these ships, Valkyries and equipment are going to want a return on their investment.  The PMCs involved would mainly technical personnel--pilots, maintainers, crewdogs, shiphandlers and the like.  (Doorkickers, it would seem, do not seem to be in demand in Macross.)  The guys these PMCs will hire for these jobs will either be trained in house from the ground up, or they'll be coordinating with folks exiting the services and training them to the standard they want.  While I am certain those PMCs vary in quality--they do IRL, after all--none of these companies will want to lose valuable assets to incompetence.  I doubt they're going to hire the nearest drunk wearing a campaign hat at the local VFW.   Those PMCs will take calculated risks for profits--not foolish ones.

 

7 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

The one overriding problem with a PMC vs. a Zentraedi force is that even the smaller Branch Fleets consist of thousands of ships.  The larger Main Fleets are composed of millions of vessels, and all of these fleets have some pretty heavy weaponry that comes with them, both ship-mounted as well as launched mecha/ fighters (As @Seto Kaiba has pointed out in previous posts). Given that UN Spacy/ NUNS has had one hell of a time even defeating a smaller fleet in times of crisis and that most PMC's are not all that large or well-equipped as NUNS, I seriously doubt that they would do much to "hold the line" against much except a small rouge force of malcontent Zentraedi or pirates.

Mercenary companies aren't noted for sacrifice--only professionalism so long as the profit is there (note the comment on risk above).  Wise leadership would be prepared for that.  Additionally, one would hope the leadership of a small colony wouldn't be foolish enough to try to stare down a main fleet.  Terrorist bands, pirates and small Zentraedi fleet elements are about the only threats PMCs should be tasked to handle.  Anything more should drive either a mass evacuation or a major force deployment by the NUNS with no guarantee of victory. 

 

[pengbuzz]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Hundreds, not thousands.  We don't have a firm size range, but the one branch fleet we have definite numbers for (Vrlitwhai's 67th branch fleet in the TV series) was implied to be on the large side for a branch fleet and consisted of 1,213 ships.

Not that there's a huge amount of practical difference in being outnumbered hundreds to one as opposed to thousands to one in a stand-up fight.

Sorry, my source indicated thousands; maybe I need better sources.

Seriously though: I agree that overkill by several hundred is about as bad as overkill by thousands. I guess it would just be a preference of how many smithereens you'd prefer to be in.  😛

 

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Indeed.  Even in 2058, an armed confrontation with a branch fleet was Serious Business even for the largest and best-equipped emigrant fleets like Macross Frontier.  The sort of emergency situation that results in a major mobilization of the New UN Forces and any supporting PMCs alongside them, as seen in Macross the Ride.  The sort of affair that you dust off the Special Forces for.

If we take Master File at its word (and a grain of salt is strongly encouraged) even the largest emigrant fleets are about 900 ships and a main fleet is the sort of thing where you're not just sending in the special forces... even a small main fleet of a few hundred thousand ships is a "get every fighter, every ship, and every reaction weapon that every planet and fleet in range can spare" sort of occasion.  Like what the New UN Forces did in response to the main fleet that bombarded Spica III.

An all hands on deck, the $#!7's about to hit the fan event. FRMville.

[Seto Kaiba]

18 minutes ago, talonlm said:

Hence 'backwater colony.'  The emigrant fleets are designed with firepower necessary to hold threats off long enough to allow the main fleet to escape.  Colonial defense--particularly of small colonies--shouldn't call for a significant NUNS deployment unless there's a known threat.

So... pretty much as a rule, when a habitable planet is located and colonized in Macross it's an emigrant fleet that found the planet and colonized it.  That's what emigrant fleets do.  It's kind of their entire thing, really.

Those emigrant fleets raise, fund, and maintain their own local New UN Forces defense forces that protect them in transit as well as after they locate a planet and settle down.  The size and composition of those forces varies wildly based on the generation of emigrant fleet and preferences of its government, but the vast majority of planets have at least a few New UN Spacy warships chilling out in orbit for defense.  Most have dozens if not hundreds.  

Even New UN Government member worlds that weren't, strictly speaking, colonized by Humanity because they already had native sentient lifeforms have such defense forces, and some maintain additional paramilitary forces for law enforcement purposes like Zola's anti-poaching Zola Patrol and Uroboros's anti-piracy Hunter's Guild.

 

 

18 minutes ago, talonlm said:

PMCs would be ideal for running off criminal elements (assuming, of course, they're not the criminal element) or at least being able to buy time should a more significant threat come up.  They wouldn't need top-notch equipment for that--just enough sense to know when to fight and when to call for help.  Better (for NUNS), the colony would be paying.

Yeah, that's pretty much the rationale behind the Hunter's Guild on Uroboros.

Though the Uroboros Hunter's Guild isn't a PMC, it's a licensing and regulatory body for freelance bounty hunters and similar... basically your standard JRPG Adventurer's Guild but dressed up in sci-fi suitable terms.

'course, it's worth noting that the emigrant fleet's/planet's government is already footing the bill to maintain the fleet's/planet's local New UN Forces.

 

 

18 minutes ago, talonlm said:

I suspect the companies providing the funding for all these ships, Valkyries and equipment are going to want a return on their investment.  The PMCs involved would mainly technical personnel--pilots, maintainers, crewdogs, shiphandlers and the like.  (Doorkickers, it would seem, do not seem to be in demand in Macross.)  The guys these PMCs will hire for these jobs will either be trained in house from the ground up, or they'll be coordinating with folks exiting the services and training them to the standard they want.  While I am certain those PMCs vary in quality--they do IRL, after all--none of these companies will want to lose valuable assets to incompetence.  I doubt they're going to hire the nearest drunk wearing a campaign hat at the local VFW.   Those PMCs will take calculated risks for profits--not foolish ones.

Of course.  These PMCs are corporate subsidiaries that have to turn a profit in order to stay in business and often remain enmeshed in providing services to their parent companies.

Mind you, because manpower is scarce and demand is high they do seem to be willing to take risks on people who have skills but also have problematic habits, personalities, or histories.  This much is explicitly stated, and we of course do get examples to go with it.  Even SMS, the top tier PMC, is hiring folks who got BCD'd out of the service and Xaos is even less choosy... hiring several characters who are described as lazy and guilty of chronic tardiness and absenteeism, a mentally unstable pilot, and a commander with a rather checkered past and a long history of losing battles.

There's definitely an element of suspect judgement in some of their decisions, particularly Xaos's in Macross Delta.  Such as allowing a new recruit to repeatedly blow off training without consequences and disable safety features in a training aircraft after skipping training on the ground, a rather heinous breach of common sense that nearly got their new recruit killed in the expensive and messy crash of a dedicated training aircraft.

 

18 minutes ago, talonlm said:

Mercenary companies aren't noted for sacrifice--only professionalism so long as the profit is there (note the comment on risk above).  Wise leadership would be prepared for that.  Additionally, one would hope the leadership of a small colony wouldn't be foolish enough to try to stare down a main fleet.  Terrorist bands, pirates and small Zentraedi fleet elements are about the only threats PMCs should be tasked to handle.  Anything more should drive either a mass evacuation or a major force deployment by the NUNS with no guarantee of victory. 

Well, yes... whether such wise leadership is actually available is another matter entirely.

However, PMCs aren't being hired to take on Zentradi fleets on their own or anything like that.  From what we see and what we're told, when they're not being hired by their parent company to protect its own assets and personnel they're providing support, training, and/or field testing services in support of the local New UN Forces.  They're not a replacement for said local New UN Forces, merely a supplement to them.

[Big s]

I’ve been rewatching Frontier on Hulu and noticed something I either forgot or didn’t pay attention to when I watched it as a bootleg years ago. It was the episode where they go down to that planet and Temjin hijacks a Queadluun Rhea. The thing I didn’t notice was that the Zentraedi weren’t just in movie style designs, but a mix. Most including seemed like they were wearing movie style body armor and those seemed to be with Temjin’s revolt. The others mostly had Tv style light body armor and maybe a guy or two wearing long coats like in the og show.

I guess I had always assumed they just went for Dyrl designs for them from 7 on. But this kinda threw me off a bit. Was wondering if there’s an explanation behind all this or not?

[Master Dex]

The explanation is basically the old Kawamori standard: All versions are true, from a certain point of view. When every entry is a dramatization of that unseen real events the designs can and will go back and forth and change multiple times. Generally the DYRL stuff is more popular, and it's supposedly also newer (which is why it's used in the in universe version of the movie, they used newer tech for a historical film because all the old stuff was not available anymore).

It's not that most satisfying answer admittedly but it is an answer lol.

[Big s]

1 hour ago, Master Dex said:

The explanation is basically the old Kawamori standard: All versions are true, from a certain point of view. When every entry is a dramatization of that unseen real events the designs can and will go back and forth and change multiple times. Generally the DYRL stuff is more popular, and it's supposedly also newer (which is why it's used in the in universe version of the movie, they used newer tech for a historical film because all the old stuff was not available anymore).

It's not that most satisfying answer admittedly but it is an answer lol.

I kinda figured that, but was just wondering if maybe there’s was something more to it, like certain fleets had a different uniform or something. I guess not

[Seto Kaiba]

4 hours ago, Big s said:

I guess I had always assumed they just went for Dyrl designs for them from 7 on. But this kinda threw me off a bit. Was wondering if there’s an explanation behind all this or not?

Nah, they've been mixing and matching versions of events and designs pretty much the entire time.

Macross runs on Broad Strokes Continuity, which Kawamori has sometimes attempted to explain as all Macross titles being dramatizations that emphasize or deemphasize parts of an unseen "true" history or that they're all equally true.  In practical terms, it just means Macross has a multiple choice approach to the past and that designs from all versions coexist so they can use whatever they feel best fits the new project they're working on.

We saw a fair bit of this in Macross 7, where the in-universe Lynn Minmay Story special that Fire Bomber was hired to work on mixed and matched a DYRL Vrlitwhai and a TV Quamzin, and of course the in-story version of DYRL? having scenes that aren't in the real version like Max and Milia's wedding.  It's very prominent in Macross Delta as well, where Berger Stone's historical summation shows things like the TV series ending of Frontier, but with Alto using the YF-29.

[pengbuzz]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Nah, they've been mixing and matching versions of events and designs pretty much the entire time.

Macross runs on Broad Strokes Continuity, which Kawamori has sometimes attempted to explain as all Macross titles being dramatizations that emphasize or deemphasize parts of an unseen "true" history or that they're all equally true.  In practical terms, it just means Macross has a multiple choice approach to the past and that designs from all versions coexist so they can use whatever they feel best fits the new project they're working on.

We saw a fair bit of this in Macross 7, where the in-universe Lynn Minmay Story special that Fire Bomber was hired to work on mixed and matched a DYRL Vrlitwhai and a TV Quamzin, and of course the in-story version of DYRL? having scenes that aren't in the real version like Max and Milia's wedding.  It's very prominent in Macross Delta as well, where Berger Stone's historical summation shows things like the TV series ending of Frontier, but with Alto using the YF-29.

Canon meet Wheel of Fortune

[Graham]

On 7/18/2025 at 9:52 PM, guyxxed said:

I actually agree with that sentiment, and it's what led me to start playing around with what a NUNS version of the VF-25 might look like.  I get the idea that a screen full of "hero" valks is visually confusing, but I think the way Delta handled it with differently colored versions for protagonists vs cannon fodder was more than adequate.  And, like you say, the original did just fine with everyone in the same plane.

That's awesome. I would 100% buy a DX of that.

[Seto Kaiba]

8 hours ago, Graham said:

That's awesome. I would 100% buy a DX of that.

We need to see if someone can stealthily drop this on Bandai's desk... because I doubt we're the only ones who'd look at this and say "Take my money, Bandai!"

 

11 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Canon meet Wheel of Fortune

In practice, you could say it's a typically polite Japanese way of saying "It's my story and I'll do what I want." 😆

Kawamori's not going to let himself be locked into a single version of the narrative, even if official publications do generally preference the TV series version over movie versions for timelines and such.  He'll pick whatever he thinks best fits the new story he's trying to tell and run with that.

[pengbuzz]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

We need to see if someone can stealthily drop this on Bandai's desk... because I doubt we're the only ones who'd look at this and say "Take my money, Bandai!"

 

*begins plotting*

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

 

In practice, you could say it's a typically polite Japanese way of saying "It's my story and I'll do what I want." 😆

Kawamori's not going to let himself be locked into a single version of the narrative, even if official publications do generally preference the TV series version over movie versions for timelines and such.  He'll pick whatever he thinks best fits the new story he's trying to tell and run with that.

Kawamori: "Up yours, please. Thank you very much."

[Seto Kaiba]

I wouldn't mind seeing a version of that in the "Rim World Model" colors used for the VF-171s in Macross Delta either.

It's close-ish to the standard CF khaki for the VF-25A but not all the way there.

[Master Dex]

30 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I wouldn't mind seeing a version of that in the "Rim World Model" colors used for the VF-171s in Macross Delta either.

It's close-ish to the standard CF khaki for the VF-25A but not all the way there.

Though Brisingr would be using that color on the Kairos I'd think.

[TehPW]

Seto: Where is it stated that the Destroid Cheyenne II's on the MQ and ME-class ships are drone/slaved to a Fire Control system on the ships?

[Seto Kaiba]

2 minutes ago, TehPW said:

Seto: Where is it stated that the Destroid Cheyenne II's on the MQ and ME-class ships are drone/slaved to a Fire Control system on the ships?

Its Macross Chronicle Mechanic Sheet mentions that they can be/are remotely controlled from the warship side instead of manually operated.

[TehPW]

hmm... is that a IRL aspect of how drones are used in services (like the Globe Hawk)? or this a SYB2202 rational: They literally don't have the crews to fully man those Class-D ships...?

[guyxxed]

12 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I wouldn't mind seeing a version of that in the "Rim World Model" colors used for the VF-171s in Macross Delta either.

It's close-ish to the standard CF khaki for the VF-25A but not all the way there.

Funny you should mention that.  😉  When I started working on the Al Shahal map, I made this variant to go along with it, though I quickly dropped it since the local NUNS are probably too poor to afford it.  I then switched it to a "Royal Guard" scheme as a private unit for a rich local family.

[Seto Kaiba]

11 hours ago, TehPW said:

hmm... is that a IRL aspect of how drones are used in services (like the Globe Hawk)? or this a SYB2202 rational: They literally don't have the crews to fully man those Class-D ships...?

Modern military drone aircraft like the MQ-1 Predator or RQ-4 Global Hawk are remotely controlled in the most conventional sense.  The plane has little-to-no autonomous function and virtually all aspects of flight are radio controlled from the ground by a crew of ~3 people (a pilot, a sensor operator, and a mission controller).

Military-use drone aircraft in Macross are mostly computer-controlled.  Rather than having a ground crew managing every aspect of the aircraft by remote control, most aspects of the drone's operation are instead managed by an onboard AI control system.  By law, most unmanned fighters are restricted to semi-autonomous AI control.  There is still some guidance and control provided by a ground crew in terms of identifying destinations, routes, mission parameters, target categories, permission to engage, etc.  Some heavily restricted types are fully-autonomous, able to continue operating without human intervention or direction should control be cut off (or never received).

In this case, though... I think what they're referring to is that the Cheyenne II's are being plugged into the ship's own air defense network and operating as an unmanned gun turret like a Phalanx CIWS.  Feeding them target criteria and otherwise letting the onboard radar and control computers do all the heavy lifting.

[TG Remix]

The Cheyenne talk does make me wonder, the original ones in Zero were stationed as anti-aircraft interception units on Navy ships if I'm not mistaken. Would the ones that were that boarded the CVN-99 Asuka make more sense belonging to the UN Navy despite the UN Spacy marking? And maybe this is a general thing with ADR series like the Defender, but I wonder if there was actual merit to design complicated robots specifically for that role when you can have really strong guns attached to the ship.

Edited July 25 by TG Remix

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, TG Remix said:

The Cheyenne talk does make me wonder, the original ones in Zero were stationed as anti-aircraft interception units on Navy ships if I'm not mistaken. Would the ones that were that boarded the CVN-99 Asuka make more sense belonging to the UN Navy despite the UN Spacy marking?

In Macross Zero Ep1, the ship's badge for the CVN-99 Asuka II seen on the back wall of the briefing room (@13:20) shows her affiliation is the UN Spacy rather than the UN Navy.

Possibly/presumably because she was involved in the business of planetary defense and serving as both a mobile testbed for OTM and a training center for UN Spacy personnel who were learning the basics of Variable Fighter (and possibly Destroid) operations.  The Destroids, like the Valkyries, may have been Spacy property used to train personnel in the basics before proper production models became available.

Variable Fighter Master File: VF-0 Phoenix does present an alternate version of the ship's badge that presents a UN Navy affiliation instead.

 

2 hours ago, TG Remix said:

And maybe this is a general thing with ADR series like the Defender, but I wonder if there was actual merit to design complicated robots specifically for that role when you can have really strong guns attached to the ship.

Given that most later space warships opted for simpler and smaller beam and missile CIWS turrets, apparently not in a purely ship-based air defense context.

The Destroids of the First Space War and original Macross series were built in expectation of use in a land war.  The Defender was a self-propelled anti-aircraft gun that was meant to protect a larger mobile Destroid force from attack by aircraft.  As it happened, the Zentradi didn't really do land wars in general so the Defenders on the ground never got to even see the enemy before being obliterated and the ones in space were stuck as overcomplicated CIWS turrets.

[Seto Kaiba]

14 hours ago, guyxxed said:

Funny you should mention that.  😉  When I started working on the Al Shahal map, I made this variant to go along with it, though I quickly dropped it since the local NUNS are probably too poor to afford it.  I then switched it to a "Royal Guard" scheme as a private unit for a rich local family.

That scheme looks pretty cool too.

[Captain Global]

 

Hi, so recently I've been re reading the vf master files and had some doubts maybe you guys can help me with. 

My main doubt is with the transition from the VF-25 to the VF-31. I have some explanations on why NUNS never adopted the vf-25 and instead decided to develop the VF-31 series, but they do not seem quite convincing to me. I would like you guys to correct me if I made any wrong assumptions and perhaps help me to fill in the blanks. Machine translation has come a long way but it is ambiguous or outright wrong sometimes. 

 

The way I interpreted the VF-25 and VF-31 master files was that 

1.NUNS never widely adopted the vf 25 and derivatives limiting it to select units, however colonies and especially migration fleets truly adopted it in scale. 

2.At the same time NUNS still was searching for a cheaper, mas produced aircraft with increased flexibility. The VF-31 A was supposed to fulfill this role and incorporate the multi-mission pack.

3.Following the deployment of the yf-29 they started also looking for a 5.5 or 6th gen platform (project hyper nova). Hence the vf-31S and the vf-31AX were developed. 

 

My main question would be why they did not adopt the vf 25 in order to fulfill the vf-31A role and why they decided to pursue the VF-31 project despite already having invested resources on the 25 and the triangle project. I can understand the idea of the project "hyper nova" in order to have some edge against possible rivals, but for the general-purpose machine It still seems a little incoherent.

So far, the explanations I was able to find are the following:

-Perhaps it was because the 25 was too expensive as it mentions NUNS was looking for a more cost-effective option. But thought the VF-31 master file I could not find any mentions to cost saving measures, so it seems it could be as expensive as the 25. 

-Another theory is that it is because of the hi-lo mix. As it says in the master file, adopting the 31 series allow to have both aircraft deployed together with increased interoperability and somewhat of a deterrence factor. However, reading the "Variable Fighter Generations" section on the Vf-25 master file, it says that NUNS already considered the VF-171 and VF-25 an adequate hi-lo mix. Perhaps the massive 171 losses on the vajara war proved them wrong. 

-My last explanation (and this is a personal theory) is that Shinshei and General Galaxy are able to start their ow internal projects without needing a request from the NUNS or their funds. Given how decentralized the Galaxy is they could just develop the VF-31 series on their own, with their own resources and without the need for a NUNS request or them even buying the thing. This would also explain why General Galaxy/SV works were able to fund, develop and build the SV-262 and SV-303 on their own.  

 

Also, one thing I find a little weird is that NUNS never seems to fully adopt anything past 2059, although In the 31 and 31 AX master file it present some units thata dop these machines It is never widespread adoption. 

I understand this lore is only semiofficial and that in macross narrative always comes first. But I would like to know if I misunderstood or if I'm missing something. 

 

Perhaps on the next installment of the franchise we are going to see the venerable vf-171 getting hammered (again) by the bad guys in the first episode. 

 

PD: sorry for the long post

[Sildani]

I had thought the NUNS adopted the VF-24, of which the VF-25 was a detuned "Share-Valkyrie" that was sent for free to emigrant fleets and colonies and the VF-26 made by Macross Olympia went nowhere.

The VF-24 was described as so powerful and versatile that I can't imagine the NUNS getting rid of it only a decade or so after its adoption.

[snakerbot]

1 hour ago, Captain Global said:

My main question would be why they did not adopt the vf 25 in order to fulfill the vf-31A role and why they decided to pursue the VF-31 project despite already having invested resources on the 25 and the triangle project.

The short answer to all of your questions is that there is no singular "they" like this sentence suggests. There are many local NUNS branches, each with their own requirements and constraints. To further complicate matters, there are non-NUNS outfits like SMS and XAOS that may have their own objectives as well. 

The federal NUNS on Earth adopted the VF-24 and redacted and tuned down specs were then broadcast out to the colonies to do whatever they wanted with. Some would presumably just build per those exact specs, some would ignore them and use other VFs or all-ghost fleets, and some would use those specs as a jumping-off point for their own designs. Frontier was in that last category. Their local government decided to develop the VF-25 because they wanted a VF to meet their own requirements and because they had the resources to do so. 

The local government in the Brisingr cluster chose to develop the VF-31 mostly in an attempt to kick-start their economy, which was in somewhat of a sorry state due to their isolation in a backwater corner of the galaxy. Since the Brisingr Alliance NUNS was not the same entity as the Frontier NUNS, they (Brisingr) couldn't just use the VF-25. They (Brisingr) would have to either buy completed fighters outright from Frontier, or more likely, pay license fees to build them locally.

[Seto Kaiba]

3 hours ago, Captain Global said:

My main question would be why they did not adopt the vf 25 in order to fulfill the vf-31A role and why they decided to pursue the VF-31 project despite already having invested resources on the 25 and the triangle project. I can understand the idea of the project "hyper nova" in order to have some edge against possible rivals, but for the general-purpose machine It still seems a little incoherent.

@snakerbot has the correct answer:

43 minutes ago, snakerbot said:

The short answer to all of your questions is that there is no singular "they" like this sentence suggests. There are many local NUNS branches, each with their own requirements and constraints. To further complicate matters, there are non-NUNS outfits like SMS and XAOS that may have their own objectives as well. 

 

To expand on snakerbot's answer, assuming that the New UN Forces are a monolithic organization is one of the more common misconceptions that fans make when talking about the Macross Frontier and Macross Delta series.

The relationship between the New UN Government and its various member governments (emigrant governments) has been continually evolving in the era of space emigration, as has the relationship between the New UN Government member governments and the New UN Forces.  The New UN Government was originally a strong central government with broad authority over the individual member governments.  Likewise, the central New UN Forces wielded considerable authority over the local New UN Forces maintained by all of the individual emigrant fleets and planets.  You can think of it as being a bit like the relationship between the US federal gov't and state gov't and between the regular US military and national guard in a sense.  It's not an exact comparison, but the relationship is close enough to get the gist.

Time, distance, and the limitations of fold technology gradually made centralized authority less and less practical as humanity expanded into the greater galaxy aboard its various large scale long distance emigrant fleets.  Referring every important matter up the chain of command to some central authority on Earth simply wasn't realistic as a way to handle matters of governance or defense for a growing number of emigrant governments and the problem only got more pronounced with time.  This led to growing unrest among the emigrant governments and prompted a period of small civil wars and uprisings that would come to be known as the Second Unification War(s) and culminate in the pro-centrists within the New UN Gov't and New UN Forces attempting a coup in 2051 (Macross VF-X2).  They were defeated, and ultimately the pro-autonomy faction won out, granting more independence and authority to the individual member governments and decentralizing command of the New UN Forces to make it easier for emigrant governments to respond flexibly to threats.  By the time of Macross Frontier and Macross Delta, the relationship between the New UN Government and member governments is more akin to that of the European Union.

Emigrant fleets have had a fair amount of discretionary authority in deciding how to equip their local New UN Forces defense forces from a relatively early point.  Macross 7 is the series this first rears its head in, with the central New UN Forces and Macross 7 fleet having adopted the VF-11 while the colony Megaroad-13 set up in the Varauta system made a decision to adopt the VF-14 instead.  Master File suggests that this was the case from the very beginning, with some emigrant fleets toying with adopting the VF-3000 back in the 2010s.  That has been taken to its logical extreme by the time of Frontier, with the wealthiest emigrant governments starting to get into the defense industry and begin domestic development of new model VFs instead of buying a license to locally produce VFs developed for the central New UN Forces on Earth.  (This mirrors what Japan went through in terms of defense appropriations.  Japan's F-2 is a build-under-license version of the US F-16, with Japan vying to break into the lucrative weapons export market by developing a next-generation fighter to replace it.)

 

3 hours ago, Captain Global said:

 The way I interpreted the VF-25 and VF-31 master files was that 

1.NUNS never widely adopted the vf 25 and derivatives limiting it to select units, however colonies and especially migration fleets truly adopted it in scale. 

2.At the same time NUNS still was searching for a cheaper, mas produced aircraft with increased flexibility. The VF-31 A was supposed to fulfill this role and incorporate the multi-mission pack.

Earth and the central New UN Forces are implied (or directly stated in Master File) to have adopted the VF-24 as their 5th Generation main fighter from 2057.  The specifications for the final YF-24 Evolution prototype, minus Earth's proprietary technologies, were transmitted to all of the emigrant governments as required by law.

The Macross Frontier fleet used the YF-24 Evolution specs as a starting point for the domestic development of their own 5th Generation main fighter for their local New UN Forces and for export sale to other emigrant governments.  Macross Galaxy did likewise, developing the VF-27 using both the YF-24 Evolution spec and stolen development data from the Frontier fleet's anti-Vajra YF-29 program.  Master File's version of this makes it out to be a joint development program called "Project Triangler" rather than independent programs carried out in each fleet, with Macross Frontier partnering with Macross Olympia and Macross Galaxy to codevelop a next-generation fighter that all three fleets were supposed to adopt and profit from export sales of.  Existing material suggests that the VF-25 was exported quite widely, with the Macross 7 fleet being among known customers adopting it as their next-generation main fighter.

The VF-31 is not a replacement for the VF-25.  It was developed as an alternative/competitor to the VF-25 by a regional economic/defense pact that had similar goals vis-a-vis the huge economic benefits of exporting weapons.  The Brisingr Alliance is a mutual defense and economic union between the New UN Gov't's worlds in the Brisingr globular cluster.  They're way off the beaten path on the far side of the galaxy and their sheer remoteness has not helped their economic situation.  So the Brisingr Alliance floated the idea of joint domestic development of a next-generation main fighter instead of buying a license to build Earth's latest fighter again as a way to keep defense spending within the cluster and stimulate the local economy directly.  They also wanted to potentially export the new model to other emigrant governments and thus bring a new source of outside revenue into their economy.  (The VF-31 situation is a very direct allusion to Japan's domestic fighter development plan.)

 

3 hours ago, Captain Global said:

3.Following the deployment of the yf-29 they started also looking for a 5.5 or 6th gen platform (project hyper nova). Hence the vf-31S and the vf-31AX were developed. 

That's... mostly unrelated.

Master File presents a very different context for the VF-31 Siegfried custom which is somewhat at odds with official media.

Official media present the VF-31 Siegfried as an Ace Custom machine that Xaos independently produced by making "aftermarket" modifications to a few of the trial production VF-31A Kairos units loaned to them by the local New UN Forces for field testing.  Master File instead presents the Siegfried custom as a sort of limited production model meant for the special forces.

On the other hand, there is almost no official info on the VF-31AX.  Officially, it's implied to be just an improved version of the Siegfried and thus an aftermarket Ace Custom but no detailed information is offered.  Master File presents a similar picture of the VF-31AX as an "aftermarket" customization that improves on the Siegfried.  Where it differs from official material is that it claims the Siegfrieds were upgraded/repaired using a pre-existing stockpile of parts built for a planned upgrade to convert the VF-31 Siegfrieds into experimental 6th Generation technology demonstrators codenamed "VF-31X".  Because it was a rush job, only part of the upgrades were made and the resulting aircraft had many issues, being seen as something of a flying trainwreck by the developer who insisted Xaos not refer to it as the VF-31X under any circumstances.

Master File paints a picture of a 6th Generation VF development program as effectively stymied by a lack of sufficiently pure fold quartz.

 

3 hours ago, Captain Global said:

-My last explanation (and this is a personal theory) is that Shinshei and General Galaxy are able to start their ow internal projects without needing a request from the NUNS or their funds. Given how decentralized the Galaxy is they could just develop the VF-31 series on their own, with their own resources and without the need for a NUNS request or them even buying the thing. This would also explain why General Galaxy/SV works were able to fund, develop and build the SV-262 and SV-303 on their own.  

They've been doing that the entire time.

That's literally the backstory of the VF-3000.  It was an internal continuing development project based on the VF-1 Valkyrie that was started by Stonewell Bellcom and continued by Shinsei Industry after it was formed by the merger of Stonewell Bellcom, Shinnakasu Heavy Industry, and Shinsei Manufacturing in 2012.

That kind of internal, independent development is also the origin story of the SV Works at General Galaxy.  They were an independent design team meant to pursue development of VFs meant specifically for anti-VF use and ultimately ended up working for/with the Epsilon Foundation subsidiary company Dian Cecht to develop and manufacture new model VFs for Windermere IV's Kingdom of the Wind.  (Though their development by/for Windermere were financed by Windermere's royal treasury who had a LOT of fold quartz to burn.)

 

3 hours ago, Captain Global said:

Also, one thing I find a little weird is that NUNS never seems to fully adopt anything past 2059, although In the 31 and 31 AX master file it present some units thata dop these machines It is never widespread adoption. 

They've actually adopted several... it's just not universal because the various local New UN Forces subordinate to the emigrant governments are each effectively autonomous forces under a common banner and their local governments can equip them as they see fit.

Some governments adopted the VF-24, some the VF-25, some the VF-31, and so on... some supposedly went all-in on unmanned fighters, and we know of at least one that totally abolished its own defense force.

[pengbuzz]

19 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

@snakerbot has the correct answer:

 

To expand on snakerbot's answer, assuming that the New UN Forces are a monolithic organization is one of the more common misconceptions that fans make when talking about the Macross Frontier and Macross Delta series.

The relationship between the New UN Government and its various member governments (emigrant governments) has been continually evolving in the era of space emigration, as has the relationship between the New UN Government member governments and the New UN Forces.  The New UN Government was originally a strong central government with broad authority over the individual member governments.  Likewise, the central New UN Forces wielded considerable authority over the local New UN Forces maintained by all of the individual emigrant fleets and planets.  You can think of it as being a bit like the relationship between the US federal gov't and state gov't and between the regular US military and national guard in a sense.  It's not an exact comparison, but the relationship is close enough to get the gist.

Time, distance, and the limitations of fold technology gradually made centralized authority less and less practical as humanity expanded into the greater galaxy aboard its various large scale long distance emigrant fleets.  Referring every important matter up the chain of command to some central authority on Earth simply wasn't realistic as a way to handle matters of governance or defense for a growing number of emigrant governments and the problem only got more pronounced with time.  This led to growing unrest among the emigrant governments and prompted a period of small civil wars and uprisings that would come to be known as the Second Unification War(s) and culminate in the pro-centrists within the New UN Gov't and New UN Forces attempting a coup in 2051 (Macross VF-X2).  They were defeated, and ultimately the pro-autonomy faction won out, granting more independence and authority to the individual member governments and decentralizing command of the New UN Forces to make it easier for emigrant governments to respond flexibly to threats.  By the time of Macross Frontier and Macross Delta, the relationship between the New UN Government and member governments is more akin to that of the European Union.

Right: given the distances the emigrant fleets are traveling, the limits of even fold communications (let alone fold travel) and how fast situations can develop and change, they really cannot "sit around" waiting for a central command to give them the "go ahead" on a scenario. In a corollary from TOS Stat Trek episode Balance of Terror, I recall that Kirk contacted Starfleet Command to ask their advice on the situation; by the time they replied, the Romulan ship had already been destroyed and it was near the end of the episode. So while that is a different franchise, the delay in communications meant that if Kirk hadn't have acted on his own, they may not have survived. I suspect much the same with the considerable distances in Macross, and how quickly situations can evolve in combat as well as other instances.

Fleets need to not be tied up waiting on a central authority to communicate with them when time is of the essence.

 

19 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Emigrant fleets have had a fair amount of discretionary authority in deciding how to equip their local New UN Forces defense forces from a relatively early point.  Macross 7 is the series this first rears its head in, with the central New UN Forces and Macross 7 fleet having adopted the VF-11 while the colony Megaroad-13 set up in the Varauta system made a decision to adopt the VF-14 instead.  Master File suggests that this was the case from the very beginning, with some emigrant fleets toying with adopting the VF-3000 back in the 2010s.  That has been taken to its logical extreme by the time of Frontier, with the wealthiest emigrant governments starting to get into the defense industry and begin domestic development of new model VFs instead of buying a license to locally produce VFs developed for the central New UN Forces on Earth.  (This mirrors what Japan went through in terms of defense appropriations.  Japan's F-2 is a build-under-license version of the US F-16, with Japan vying to break into the lucrative weapons export market by developing a next-generation fighter to replace it.)

Not to mention with the varying areas these fleets are exploring, the requirements and spec needed could vary enough that a machine that works for one fleet may not meet the needs of another.

 

19 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Earth and the central New UN Forces are implied (or directly stated in Master File) to have adopted the VF-24 as their 5th Generation main fighter from 2057.  The specifications for the final YF-24 Evolution prototype, minus Earth's proprietary technologies, were transmitted to all of the emigrant governments as required by law.

The Macross Frontier fleet used the YF-24 Evolution specs as a starting point for the domestic development of their own 5th Generation main fighter for their local New UN Forces and for export sale to other emigrant governments.  Macross Galaxy did likewise, developing the VF-27 using both the YF-24 Evolution spec and stolen development data from the Frontier fleet's anti-Vajra YF-29 program.  Master File's version of this makes it out to be a joint development program called "Project Triangler" rather than independent programs carried out in each fleet, with Macross Frontier partnering with Macross Olympia and Macross Galaxy to codevelop a next-generation fighter that all three fleets were supposed to adopt and profit from export sales of.  Existing material suggests that the VF-25 was exported quite widely, with the Macross 7 fleet being among known customers adopting it as their next-generation main fighter.

The VF-31 is not a replacement for the VF-25.  It was developed as an alternative/competitor to the VF-25 by a regional economic/defense pact that had similar goals vis-a-vis the huge economic benefits of exporting weapons.  The Brisingr Alliance is a mutual defense and economic union between the New UN Gov't's worlds in the Brisingr globular cluster.  They're way off the beaten path on the far side of the galaxy and their sheer remoteness has not helped their economic situation.  So the Brisingr Alliance floated the idea of joint domestic development of a next-generation main fighter instead of buying a license to build Earth's latest fighter again as a way to keep defense spending within the cluster and stimulate the local economy directly.  They also wanted to potentially export the new model to other emigrant governments and thus bring a new source of outside revenue into their economy.  (The VF-31 situation is a very direct allusion to Japan's domestic fighter development plan.)

I think in the Macross world, this is also good for the general economy overall; having these different models available gives governments a choice and flexibility on defense while providing price points that let the not so affluent members still field a potent defense that's tailored to their needs. Less money spent (to a reasonable limit!) on defense potentially means more that can be invested in goods, services and products.

 

19 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

They've actually adopted several... it's just not universal because the various local New UN Forces subordinate to the emigrant governments are each effectively autonomous forces under a common banner and their local governments can equip them as they see fit.

Some governments adopted the VF-24, some the VF-25, some the VF-31, and so on... some supposedly went all-in on unmanned fighters, and we know of at least one that totally abolished its own defense force.

It makes me wonder if that one that abolished their defense forces will int he near future need to call for help because of an enemy that emerged without warning?

[Captain Global]

Fst, thanks a lot for your responses, things seem to be a little more coherent now.

5 hours ago, snakerbot said:

The short answer to all of your questions is that there is no singular "they" like this sentence suggests. There are many local NUNS branches, each with their own requirements and constraints. To further complicate matters, there are non-NUNS outfits like SMS and XAOS that may have their own objectives as well. 

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

To expand on snakerbot's answer, assuming that the New UN Forces are a monolithic organization is one of the more common misconceptions that fans make when talking bout the Macross Frontier and Macross Delta series.

The relationship between the New UN Government and its various member governments (emigrant governments) has been continually evolving in the era of space emigration, as has the relationship between the New UN Government member governments and the New UN Forces.  The New UN Government was originally a strong central government with broad authority over the individual member governments.  Likewise, the central New UN Forces wielded considerable authority over the local New UN Forces maintained by all of the individual emigrant fleets and planets.  You can think of it as being a bit like the relationship between the US federal gov't and state gov't and between the regular US military and national guard in a sense.  It's not an exact comparison, but the relationship is close enough to get the gist.

Time, distance, and the limitations of fold technology gradually made centralized authority less and less practical as humanity expanded into the greater galaxy aboard its various large scale long distance emigrant fleets.  Referring every important matter up the chain of command to some central authority on Earth simply wasn't realistic as a way to handle matters of governance or defense for a growing number of emigrant governments and the problem only got more pronounced with time.  This led to growing unrest among the emigrant governments and prompted a period of small civil wars and uprisings that would come to be known as the Second Unification War(s) and culminate in the pro-centrists within the New UN Gov't and New UN Forces attempting a coup in 2051 (Macross VF-X2).  They were defeated, and ultimately the pro-autonomy faction won out, granting more independence and authority to the individual member governments and decentralizing command of the New UN Forces to make it easier for emigrant governments to respond flexibly to threats.  By the time of Macross Frontier and Macross Delta, the relationship between the New UN Government and member governments is more akin to that of the European Union.

Emigrant fleets have had a fair amount of discretionary authority in deciding how to equip their local New UN Forces defense forces from a relatively early point.  Macross 7 is the series this first rears its head in, with the central New UN Forces and Macross 7 fleet having adopted the VF-11 while the colony Megaroad-13 set up in the Varauta system made a decision to adopt the VF-14 instead.  Master File suggests that this was the case from the very beginning, with some emigrant fleets toying with adopting the VF-3000 back in the 2010s.  That has been taken to its logical extreme by the time of Frontier, with the wealthiest emigrant governments starting to get into the defense industry and begin domestic development of new model VFs instead of buying a license to locally produce VFs developed for the central New UN Forces on Earth.  (This mirrors what Japan went through in terms of defense appropriations.  Japan's F-2 is a build-under-license version of the US F-16, with Japan vying to break into the lucrative weapons export market by developing a next-generation fighter to replace it.)

I was under the impression that NUNS was still the preeminent military force on the galaxy. Fleets and planets could have their own forced but NUNS was still the main security provider. The fact that in most materials they refer to it as a single entity does not help much. But a more “EU” style of management seems to fit a post 2051 context.

5 hours ago, snakerbot said:

The local government in the Brisingr cluster chose to develop the VF-31 mostly in an attempt to kick-start their economy, which was in somewhat of a sorry state due to their isolation in a backwater corner of the galaxy. Since the Brisingr Alliance NUNS was not the same entity as the Frontier NUNS, they (Brisingr) couldn't just use the VF-25. They (Brisingr) would have to either buy completed fighters outright from Frontier, or more likely, pay license fees to build them locally.

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Earth and the central New UN Forces are implied (or directly stated in Master File) to have adopted the VF-24 as their 5th Generation main fighter from 2057.  The specifications for the final YF-24 Evolution prototype, minus Earth's proprietary technologies, were transmitted to all of the emigrant governments as required by law.

The Macross Frontier fleet used the YF-24 Evolution specs as a starting point for the domestic development of their own 5th Generation main fighter for their local New UN Forces and for export sale to other emigrant governments.  Macross Galaxy did likewise, developing the VF-27 using both the YF-24 Evolution spec and stolen development data from the Frontier fleet's anti-Vajra YF-29 program.  Master File's version of this makes it out to be a joint development program called "Project Triangler" rather than independent programs carried out in each fleet, with Macross Frontier partnering with Macross Olympia and Macross Galaxy to codevelop a next-generation fighter that all three fleets were supposed to adopt and profit from export sales of.  Existing material suggests that the VF-25 was exported quite widely, with the Macross 7 fleet being among known customers adopting it as their next-generation main fighter.

The VF-31 is not a replacement for the VF-25.  It was developed as an alternative/competitor to the VF-25 by a regional economic/defense pact that had similar goals vis-a-vis the huge economic benefits of exporting weapons.  The Brisingr Alliance is a mutual defense and economic union between the New UN Gov't's worlds in the Brisingr globular cluster.  They're way off the beaten path on the far side of the galaxy and their sheer remoteness has not helped their economic situation.  So the Brisingr Alliance floated the idea of joint domestic development of a next-generation main fighter instead of buying a license to build Earth's latest fighter again as a way to keep defense spending within the cluster and stimulate the local economy directly.  They also wanted to potentially export the new model to other emigrant governments and thus bring a new source of outside revenue into their economy.  (The VF-31 situation is a very direct allusion to Japan's domestic fighter development plan.)

Regarding the VF-31 developments now it makes more sense. I thought that the relation with the Brisingir cluster came to be when Xaos became involved and wanted to move testing from Eden to Ragna, something that, according to the Master file, did not sit well with Shinsei and some NUNS officials.

But if the Alliance is straight up funding the whole project it would make more sense. If this fact is noted on the master file please let me know in what page because I want to check if the machine translation omitted it.

 

Also @Seto Kaiba Did you get to translating the rest of the Miracle of Foegal story of the VF-31 AX master file? So far I did not have any luck with my own attempts but from what I've been able to read it is pretty wild, with 25's and 19's advance.

 

[Seto Kaiba]

15 minutes ago, Captain Global said:

I was under the impression that NUNS was still the preeminent military force on the galaxy. Fleets and planets could have their own forced but NUNS was still the main security provider. The fact that in most materials they refer to it as a single entity does not help much. But a more “EU” style of management seems to fit a post 2051 context.

The central New UN Forces under the direct authority of the New UN Government itself are absolutely still humanity's Biggest Stick™.

Spoiler

The few times they show up, like Macross VF-X2, Macross 30, and Macross Delta: Absolute Live!!!!!! they absolutely dominate the field of battle with far smaller forces than their opponents by sheer skill, training, and quality of equipment. 

On the other hand, the quality of the various local defense forces that individual New UN Gov't member nations operate under the New UN Forces banner can vary wildly based on their government's priorities and resources.  Wealthy emigrant governments like Macross Frontier or Macross Galaxy can afford to spend big on defense and thus boast large local defense forces with state-of-the-art weapons and well-trained soldiers.  Others governments like the worlds of the Brisingr Alliance have to be more restrained and have smaller or less capable forces.

It is theoretically a single entity, but it's a heavily decentralized one that's on a much tighter leash after the Second Unification War(s) due to the involvement several generals had in the coup attempt.

 

15 minutes ago, Captain Global said:

Regarding the VF-31 developments now it makes more sense. I thought that the relation with the Brisingir cluster came to be when Xaos became involved and wanted to move testing from Eden to Ragna, something that, according to the Master file, did not sit well with Shinsei and some NUNS officials.

But if the Alliance is straight up funding the whole project it would make more sense. If this fact is noted on the master file please let me know in what page because I want to check if the machine translation omitted it.

Master File rather unfortunately glosses over the development history and circumstances of the production-intent VF-31 Kairos because the book is about the Siegfried custom and they only really want to talk about that.  So instead of focusing on the domestic development of the VF-31 by the Brisingr Alliance they focus on Xaos's development of the VF-31S type.

As I mentioned earlier, it presents an account that is somewhat at odds with official media in terms of its decision to depict the Siegfried as a low volume production unit meant for Special Forces use rather than the bank-breaking-ly expensive one-off Ace Custom machines made by and for Xaos they are in the Macross Delta series proper.  

That said, the central New UN Forces probably would want to produce the VF-31 Seigfried on a limited basis if they could get the plans.  They put the YF-29 into very limited trial production for their special forces despite the insane expense, and even in Master File are maintaining actual squadrons of YF-29B and YF-29C types despite only being able to put together a few craft per year due to resource limitations.

 

15 minutes ago, Captain Global said:

Also @Seto Kaiba Did you get to translating the rest of the Miracle of Foegal story of the VF-31 AX master file? So far I did not have any luck with my own attempts but from what I've been able to read it is pretty wild, with 25's and 19's advance.

Not as of yet.  I've been rather busy at the ol' day job and am currently between computers again thanks to having another 13th gen Intel chip fry out on me.

[pengbuzz]

4 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The central New UN Forces under the direct authority of the New UN Government itself are absolutely still humanity's Biggest Stick™.

  Reveal hidden contents

The few times they show up, like Macross VF-X2, Macross 30, and Macross Delta: Absolute Live!!!!!! they absolutely dominate the field of battle with far smaller forces than their opponents by sheer skill, training, and quality of equipment. 

On the other hand, the quality of the various local defense forces that individual New UN Gov't member nations operate under the New UN Forces banner can vary wildly based on their government's priorities and resources.  Wealthy emigrant governments like Macross Frontier or Macross Galaxy can afford to spend big on defense and thus boast large local defense forces with state-of-the-art weapons and well-trained soldiers.  Others governments like the worlds of the Brisingr Alliance have to be more restrained and have smaller or less capable forces.

It is theoretically a single entity, but it's a heavily decentralized one that's on a much tighter leash after the Second Unification War(s) due to the involvement several generals had in the coup attempt.

The idea being that it's a lot harder to take over something that's not concentrated in one place anymore, right?

 

4 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Master File rather unfortunately glosses over the development history and circumstances of the production-intent VF-31 Kairos because the book is about the Siegfried custom and they only really want to talk about that.  So instead of focusing on the domestic development of the VF-31 by the Brisingr Alliance they focus on Xaos's development of the VF-31S type.

As I mentioned earlier, it presents an account that is somewhat at odds with official media in terms of its decision to depict the Siegfried as a low volume production unit meant for Special Forces use rather than the bank-breaking-ly expensive one-off Ace Custom machines made by and for Xaos they are in the Macross Delta series proper.  

I'm a bit astounded that Xaos could afford the customization parts (and attached increased maintenance needs ) for their fighters, given how cash-strapped they are.

 

4 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

That said, the central New UN Forces probably would want to produce the VF-31 Seigfried on a limited basis if they could get the plans.  They put the YF-29 into very limited trial production for their special forces despite the insane expense, and even in Master File are maintaining actual squadrons of YF-29B and YF-29C types despite only being able to put together a few craft per year due to resource limitations.

Hmm... I wonder if Xaos ever considered selling the plans to NUNS Central?

 

4 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Not as of yet.  I've been rather busy at the ol' day job and am currently between computers again thanks to having another 13th gen Intel chip fry out on me.

The microcode glitch I've been reading about? I heard it's been hitting 13th and 14th gen chips.

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, pengbuzz said:

The idea being that it's a lot harder to take over something that's not concentrated in one place anymore, right?

That may have been part of it, though I'm sure the primary reason was to give the individual member governments full control over their local defense forces.

 

1 hour ago, pengbuzz said:

I'm a bit astounded that Xaos could afford the customization parts (and attached increased maintenance needs ) for their fighters, given how cash-strapped they are.

Even if the Xaos PMC division is a small-time operator as a PMC, it's still a division of a much larger conglomerate mega-corporation with vast resources at their disposal.  

It probably helped that Xaos didn't have to pay for the aircraft themselves.

 

1 hour ago, pengbuzz said:

The microcode glitch I've been reading about? I heard it's been hitting 13th and 14th gen chips.

Yep.  I had a fairly high-end rig and unfortuantely the time it takes to RMA those defective chips is so tediously long that it's arguably faster to buy a whole new PC at this point.

[pengbuzz]

54 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

That may have been part of it, though I'm sure the primary reason was to give the individual member governments full control over their local defense forces.

After the second unification war, I wondered if it was a larger motivator than I had first thought.

 

54 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Even if the Xaos PMC division is a small-time operator as a PMC, it's still a division of a much larger conglomerate mega-corporation with vast resources at their disposal.  

It probably helped that Xaos didn't have to pay for the aircraft themselves.

Right; my take was that they were kind of lagging behind ones like SMS. Guess money's money.

 

54 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Yep.  I had a fairly high-end rig and unfortuantely the time it takes to RMA those defective chips is so tediously long that it's arguably faster to buy a whole new PC at this point.

That's a royal pain and a half; I know eventually I'll have to upgrade my PC, but with this kind of issue, I'm very reticent. 

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

After the second unification war, I wondered if it was a larger motivator than I had first thought.

There was definitely a push to impose new controls on the New UN Forces to ensure that its power couldn't be wielded so freely or unrestrainedly as it had been before.  

One of them being a new regulatory body to police the VF-X special forces, which had been used by Latence's supporters to crush dissent.

 

2 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Right; my take was that they were kind of lagging behind ones like SMS. Guess money's money.

Money's money, yeah... though there are some passing mentions to the fact that Xaos Valkyrie Works did economize where they could.

The Macross Delta TV series suggests the VF-31 Siegfried's customizations were rather haphazard, and pushed the airframe to or past its design limit making it somewhat fragile and increasing its maintenance requirements.

Master File, in its turn, suggests that the Siegfried's fold wave system was a heavily economized model that sacrificed output and the ability to self-start (requiring an external source of fold waves) to achieve a cost reduction sufficient to allow Xaos to manufacture multiple units.

 

2 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

That's a royal pain and a half; I know eventually I'll have to upgrade my PC, but with this kind of issue, I'm very reticent. 

Yeah, at the very least I can reuse the most expensive part of the PC... that bloody RTX 4080.