Gubaba Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 Not really, other than a few at the beginning of TNG, the "modern" Treks were done by an entirely NEW staff. But still from the same studio and using the same "Star Trek Bible," yes? True as far as it goes, but Shadow Chronicles IS a sequel to all of ROBOTECH that came before it. The complaint was that Shadow Chronicles was "unoriginal" and "pilfered" becasue it used previous elements of ROBOTECH (not Macross), a claim that is spurious on it's face. A Robotech continuation is logically going to build on elements of the prior Robotech installments, including Sentinels. I agree with you there. The problem with Shadow Chronicles (for me) was not that it used Mospeada designs. The problem (again, for me) was that it wasn't very good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seto Kaiba Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 Well, OF COURSE he does...because all the stats come from Japanese sources, and thus are not "pure" Robotech. You'd be surprised how often they actually voice that as though it were a legitimate counterargument whenever they make claims that run counter to what's published in the official stats on Robotech.com. I don't think ShadowLogan was able to go more than half a page without saying that the stats from the OSM shouldn't be applied to Robotech. "Legitimate criticism" and bashing statements about "hacks" and "fanboys" and complete and utter dismissal of any worth whatsoever in Robotech are different things. You need to learn the difference. So speaketh someone who's wasted how much of our time by bitching about behavior that he only THINKS goes on here on a regular basis. Do us all a favor. Go back and read the rest of the thread. Yes, what we have to say IS legitimate criticism. It might not be nice, polite, constructive criticism, but that doesn't rob it of its legitimacy. I have every right to insist on defending Robotech if you insist on your elitist bashing of it. I would not even know (or give a flying frak) about Macross ANYTHING were it not for Robotech introducing me to it, as the friend I quoted pointed out. Naturally, but as we've said repeatedly, if all you're here to do is defend Robotech from legitimate criticism, then you're here for all the wrong reasons. Also, there's nothing elitist about our "bashing", it's legitimate criticism and our personal observations about the state of Robotech, Harmony Gold, and the people who prop up both. Furthermore, I am around in the other theads, reading and learning (at least as much as I care to). Why would I open myself up as flame bait for your anti-Robotech trolling by replying in ways that (at present) would invite such a response? Considering this is a Macross site, wouldn't that make you a pro-Robotech troll, rather than making the people telling you this isn't a Robotech site anti-Robotech trolls. You're lucky I (or any other casual fan/passer by) that isn't a part of your little "purist" clique even bother to visit, given the sh*tty reception I've been given by 99% of the respondants. You came here in "attack mode", trying to tell us that we were out of line for making legitimate criticisms, comments, and observations about Harmony Gold, Robotech, and the Robotech fanbase. You're getting flak from the people you're attacking BECAUSE YOU'RE ATTACKING. Pull the stick out of your ass, take a five minute breather, and realize that people are entitled to their opinions, and no amount of pissing and moaning from you is going to change that. But a lot of this is legitimate criticism from years of observation by many fans on both sides. You think he cares? So far, he's shown us that the only opinions he considers valid are pro-Robotech ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seto Kaiba Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 (edited) True as far as it goes, but Shadow Chronicles IS a sequel to all of ROBOTECH that came before it. The complaint was that Shadow Chronicles was "unoriginal" and "pilfered" becasue it used previous elements of ROBOTECH (not Macross), a claim that is spurious on it's face. A Robotech continuation is logically going to build on elements of the prior Robotech installments, including Sentinels There's a world of difference between building on what's been previously established, and simply COPYING something that's already been made, changing the appearance a little bit and presenting it as new material. Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles falls into the latter category, as anyone who's even remotely familiar with the last few McKinney novels and the last few books of the old Sentinels comics could tell you. So yes, the criticism that the Shadow Chronicles was unoriginal, and that much of its material was pilfered wholesale from previous Robotech features is entirely valid. Edited October 23, 2009 by Seto Kaiba Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einherjar Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 (edited) Of that I have no doubt. That does not render Robotech itself without artistic merit on it's own basis. I would not call a person who feels Robotech lacks artistic merit a "fan" of Robotech. Oh, people who respected Robotech for what it is have also gone through it. There were real Robotech fans too, HappyPenguins, etc. who got shafted for really minuscule things by at most someone with really close connections to the HG staff. What's your definition of a "fan" of Robotech? Edited October 23, 2009 by Einherjar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gubaba Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 You'd be surprised how often they actually voice that as though it were a legitimate counterargument whenever they make claims that run counter to what's published in the official stats on Robotech.com. I don't think ShadowLogan was able to go more than half a page without saying that the stats from the OSM shouldn't be applied to Robotech. Fine by me. That means I can translate whatever I want without fear of it being pilfered for someone's RT fan project. So speaketh someone who's wasted how much of our time by bitching about behavior that he only THINKS goes on here on a regular basis. Do us all a favor. Go back and read the rest of the thread. Yes, what we have to say IS legitimate criticism. It might not be nice, polite, constructive criticism, but that doesn't rob it of its legitimacy. Naturally, but as we've said repeatedly, if all you're here to do is defend Robotech from legitimate criticism, then you're here for all the wrong reasons. Also, there's nothing elitist about our "bashing", it's legitimate criticism and our personal observations about the state of Robotech, Harmony Gold, and the people who prop up both. Considering this is a Macross site, wouldn't that make you a pro-Robotech troll, rather than making the people telling you this isn't a Robotech site anti-Robotech trolls. You came here in "attack mode", trying to tell us that we were out of line for making legitimate criticisms, comments, and observations about Harmony Gold, Robotech, and the Robotech fanbase. You're getting flak from the people you're attacking BECAUSE YOU'RE ATTACKING. Pull the stick out of your ass, take a five minute breather, and realize that people are entitled to their opinions, and no amount of pissing and moaning from you is going to change that. You think he cares? So far, he's shown us that the only opinions he considers valid are pro-Robotech ones. This is getting silly. It all seems like this debate is all new to Capt. Donovan, and I suggest he check the "Southernmacrosspeada" (God I hate that name!) forum at RT.com to see the other side of the coin. Likewise, I suggest that he look beyond just this thread before judging Macross World. But he's not here to be a troll, and baiting him doesn't help matters. Everyone put down the gunpods, and just relax... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyPenguins Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 (edited) Those are at least fair and debateable crits. I'd be very interested in seeing SR get finished, preferably by the team that did SC. I've enver understood the big deal about taking comics, esp superheroes and such "live action" when animation is the superior venue for such storytelling. LOL I can guarantee you'd change your mind if you read the script that got leaked on the tubes here let me sum it up for you! more black hole nonsense, janice wants to shag marcus (maia and louie are both jealous!) there's a reclone of Zor (ZOMG WTF)and it aint Rem. marcus tells janice to go *beep* herself gets captured by da haydonites (HG staff) Ariel sacrifices herself and scott bernard dies! There's more but that's just the icing on the cake! Edited October 23, 2009 by HappyPenguins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seto Kaiba Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 (edited) This is getting silly. It all seems like this debate is all new to Capt. Donovan, and I suggest he check the "Southernmacrosspeada" (God I hate that name!) forum at RT.com to see the other side of the coin. Likewise, I suggest that he look beyond just this thread before judging Macross World. I would go further, and suggest he read the rest of this thread before trying to pass judgment on all of us. But he's not here to be a troll, and baiting him doesn't help matters. If he wasn't constantly telling us that the criticisms we've voiced are not legitimate, that our opinions are not valid, and if he was not completely dismissive of what others have to say most of the time, I could possibly see that as being true. He needs to take a breather, read the rest of the thread, and accept that other people are entitled to their opinions too. Once he stops having a go at us for having opinions, everything will be fine. here let me sum it up for you! more black hole nonsense, janice wants to shag marcus (maia and louie are both jealous!) there's a reclone of Zor (ZOMG WTF)and it aint Rem. marcus tells janice to go *beep* herself gets captured by da haydonites (HG staff) Ariel sacrifices herself and scott bernard dies! Holy crap, really? I approve of them killing off the pre-existing cast (if only because it'll force them to stop relying almost exclusively on characters from the OSM), but damn if most of that doesn't sound like a bad fanfic. Edited October 23, 2009 by Seto Kaiba Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justvinnie Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 Those are at least fair and debateable crits. I'd be very interested in seeing SR get finished, preferably by the team that did SC. I've enver understood the big deal about taking comics, esp superheroes and such "live action" when animation is the superior venue for such storytelling. Does this mean your a fan of RT:SC? If you are a fan then, you sir, have lost all credibility in my eyes. I want those 1.5 hours of my life back. Watching RT:SC is akin to watching a train wreck about to happen in slow motion. You know you should stop and yet morbid curiosity prevents you from averting your eyes. Drop the whole "must defend RT" and save yourself angst and time. Plenty of RT fans on this board who don't have an issue with the community at large. dr vinnie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyPenguins Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 (edited) Holy crap, really? I approve of them killing off the pre-existing cast (if only because it'll force them to stop relying almost exclusively on characters from the OSM), but damn if most of that doesn't sound like a bad fanfic. check your email Edited October 23, 2009 by HappyPenguins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seto Kaiba Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 check your email Many thanks, I'll go have a look at that right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EXO Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 ...given the sh*tty reception I've been given by 99% of the respondants. Because you come in with a shitty prejudgement of MW, not because you're an RT fan. You can't even acknowledge it... "NO! It's because I love Robotech!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azrael Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 I don't care if it's Robotech OR Macross, it's the same SDF-1, Between RT and Macross, that's a matter of opinion, laddie. and furthermore I personally don't care if it's printed in Japanese, Swahilli, or Sanskrit. 1.2 km doesn't make sense to me, nor do I feel it matches the visuals. Well then, what does make sense to you? By all means, tell us what you think the SDF-1's length should be. Amuse us. Cuz whether it's RT or Macross or any movie or TV show, camera angles and lighting can play weird tricks. Hell, I can make Seto's ass look like the Rockies with the right lighting and camera angles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einherjar Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 LOL I can guarantee you'd change your mind if you read the script that got leaked on the tubes here let me sum it up for you! more black hole nonsense, janice wants to shag marcus (maia and louie are both jealous!) there's a reclone of Zor (ZOMG WTF)and it aint Rem. marcus tells janice to go *beep* herself gets captured by da haydonites (HG staff) Ariel sacrifices herself and scott bernard dies! There's more but that's just the icing on the cake! That's about as much as I know about the script. Hard to imagine it's been about three years since Shadow Chronicles was released and not much has happened since. Heck, remember the website they created for Shadow Rising? It's still around waiting for authorization. And people are still waiting to know what happened to Rick Hunter and the new hotness es. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seto Kaiba Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 LOL I can guarantee you'd change your mind if you read the script that got leaked on the tubes I just finished reading the leaked material you sent me, and I find myself unable to find words strong enough to properly convey just how awful it really is. In a mere six pages, it opened my mind to a level of incompetence that I didn't even know was possible. This goes WAY beyond the allegations of fanwankery and a creative staff incapable of creating quality material. This is truly filmmaking on a level not seen since the passing of Ed Wood. If the plot of the so-called "Shadow Saga" has not changed materially since this leak, then we will almost certainly be forced to concede that Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles was the high point of the Shadow trilogy. Maybe Harmony Gold should just go for broke and hire Rob Liefeld as their creative director and attach Uwe Boll to direct. At least then it could stand a chance of hitting that hard-to-reach "so bad it's good" zone. Between RT and Macross, that's a matter of opinion, laddie. Eh, the powers that be in both franchises said 1,200m give or take 10m... I'm not seeing the problem. Well then, what does make sense to you? By all means, tell us what you think the SDF-1's length should be. Amuse us. Cuz whether it's RT or Macross or any movie or TV show, camera angles and lighting can play weird tricks. Hell, I can make Seto's ass look like the Rockies with the right lighting and camera angles. How did my ass get dragged into this conversation? That's about as much as I know about the script. Hard to imagine it's been about three years since Shadow Chronicles was released and not much has happened since. Heck, remember the website they created for Shadow Rising? It's still around waiting for authorization. And people are still waiting to know what happened to Rick Hunter and the new hotness es. Believe me, if the plot is still based on the concepts in that leaked draft, not moving forward with Shadow Rising is probably the nicest thing Harmony Gold has ever done for Robotech fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gubaba Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 Heh. I just finished listening to the new Protoculture Times, and all I gotta say is: "DEATH TO MACROSS PURISTS!!!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyPenguins Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 Believe me, if the plot is still based on the concepts in that leaked draft, not moving forward with Shadow Rising is probably the nicest thing Harmony Gold has ever done for Robotech fans. Amen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einherjar Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 (edited) Believe me, if the plot is still based on the concepts in that leaked draft, not moving forward with Shadow Rising is probably the nicest thing Harmony Gold has ever done for Robotech fans. Well, releasing ANYTHING new at this point is better than what they're forcing the fandom to go through. There's so many groups now wondering what's going on with it. Well, at least 2. Edited October 23, 2009 by Einherjar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gubaba Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 I just finished reading the leaked material you sent me, and I find myself unable to find words strong enough to properly convey just how awful it really is. In a mere six pages, it opened my mind to a level of incompetence that I didn't even know was possible. This goes WAY beyond the allegations of fanwankery and a creative staff incapable of creating quality material. This is truly filmmaking on a level not seen since the passing of Ed Wood. If the plot of the so-called "Shadow Saga" has not changed materially since this leak, then we will almost certainly be forced to concede that Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles was the high point of the Shadow trilogy. Maybe Harmony Gold should just go for broke and hire Rob Liefeld as their creative director and attach Uwe Boll to direct. At least then it could stand a chance of hitting that hard-to-reach "so bad it's good" zone. Jasonc is pretty sure it's real...but I kind of have my doubts. I'd like to think that the writers were above ripping off DYRL and Char's Counterattack...but really, I guess I couldn't put it past them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt Christopher Donovan Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 This is getting silly. It all seems like this debate is all new to Capt. Donovan, and I suggest he check the "Southernmacrosspeada" (God I hate that name!) forum at RT.com to see the other side of the coin. Likewise, I suggest that he look beyond just this thread before judging Macross World. But he's not here to be a troll, and baiting him doesn't help matters. Everyone put down the gunpods, and just relax... Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt Christopher Donovan Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 LOL I can guarantee you'd change your mind if you read the script that got leaked on the tubes here let me sum it up for you! more black hole nonsense, janice wants to shag marcus (maia and louie are both jealous!) there's a reclone of Zor (ZOMG WTF)and it aint Rem. marcus tells janice to go *beep* herself gets captured by da haydonites (HG staff) Ariel sacrifices herself and scott bernard dies! There's more but that's just the icing on the cake! I think it would depend on how it was done. None of that is a deal breaker for me, and some of it you have to admit is a ballsy move (killing TWO leads, for example). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt Christopher Donovan Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 check your email Could I have a copy too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einherjar Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 (edited) Heh. I just finished listening to the new Protoculture Times I like how he's addressing a very serious problem never tackled before. Edited October 23, 2009 by Einherjar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt Christopher Donovan Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 Between RT and Macross, that's a matter of opinion, laddie. Well then, what does make sense to you? By all means, tell us what you think the SDF-1's length should be. Amuse us. Cuz whether it's RT or Macross or any movie or TV show, camera angles and lighting can play weird tricks. Hell, I can make Seto's ass look like the Rockies with the right lighting and camera angles. Well, I haven't done a frame-by-frame multiple angle study or anyting, but my intitial impression after having rewatched the entire first series and considering the internal shots and the dialogue, I'm leaning towards 2 to 3 x the stated dimensions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyPenguins Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 Could I have a copy too? sure just PM me your email addy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gubaba Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 I think it would depend on how it was done. None of that is a deal breaker for me, and some of it you have to admit is a ballsy move (killing TWO leads, for example). Yes, but they get reunited in Invid heaven. Also: Ariel sacrifices herself trying to stop a meteor from hitting Tirol, and Janice sings to the Haydonites, causing some of them to remember emotions, and turn against their leaders. Is THAT enough of a deal breaker for you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gubaba Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 I like how he's addressing a very serious problem never tackled seriously before. True. Some people here have raged about it, some people have luaghed; I always figure if they want to run their own website that way, that's up to them, but the whole thing always made me shake my head in disbelief. No one really grappled with it soberly, seriously, and reasonably before. And it's good to see it being addressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einherjar Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 True. Some people here have raged about it, some people have luaghed; I always figure if they want to run their own website that way, that's up to them, but the whole thing always made me shake my head in disbelief. No one really grappled with it soberly, seriously, and reasonably before. And it's good to see it being addressed. You think this might change something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seto Kaiba Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 You think this might change something? No... unless that something is the status of Zen's RT.com and RTX member accounts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VFTF1 Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 I don't care if it's Robotech OR Macross, it's the same SDF-1, and furthermore I personally don't care if it's printed in Japanese, Swahilli, or Sanskrit. 1.2 km doesn't make sense to me, nor do I feel it matches the visuals. But.....then...why do you care about the length of the SDF-1 at all? See - this view that it doesn't matter if it's Robotech OR Macross... really? I actually tend to think it does matter. If we're going to try to speak like tech-heads about scientific matters in a fictional universe, it would, I imagine, help to at least agree on what universe we're talking about. I just find it contradictory to say on the one hand that you don't accept explenations like artistic license, but on the other hand you don't care whether we're talking about Robotech or Macross - two completely different shows. I bring this up only because in the case of designs for characters, uniforms and even MECHA - Kawamori has made it pretty clear that the designs from DYRL are the generally "cannon" ones - or at least the ones he prefers. It was DYRL that took great pains to be super accurate with the mecha - including the SDF-1. So the most immediate thing that comes to mind when you say "who cares if it's Macross OR Robtoech is" - well..Macross fans care. Robotech fans might have a "who cares" approach - you'd have to not really care what show it is you're watching to enjoy something that is composed of three different anime randomly put together. Macross fans, on the other hand, DO CARE what they're watching. And if we're going to talk about Mecha and technology and the SDF-1 in MACROSS - then really we need to be discussing DYRL because THAT is what Kawamori has used as the basis for mecha design in ALL future series and THAT is what Yamato and toy/model designers (Hasegawa) have used as the basis for their model designs. And that is NOT Robotech. Are we learning yet? Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt Christopher Donovan Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 Yes, but they get reunited in Invid heaven. Also: Ariel sacrifices herself trying to stop a meteor from hitting Tirol, and Janice sings to the Haydonites, causing some of them to remember emotions, and turn against their leaders. Is THAT enough of a deal breaker for you? Not really. "Invid heaven" could mean any number of things. Perhaps Scott is offered in his death the chance to "ascend" as the invid have ascended, uniting man and Invid and paving the way to peace between the two after the fall of the Haydonites. He and Ariel could be truly united in that way after her "sacrifice" making it the ultimate completion of the theme of unity of differences as embodied by human/alien union (Max/Myria, Dana/Zor, Scott/Marlene), a concept that goes all the way back to the first of Robotech. Janice singing to the Haydonites to rekindle emotions mirrors Minmay doing something similar to the Zentradi. It's a "history cycle" concept that has been hinted at before in Robotech. The power of love in Robotech is represented by song, and at it's core Robotech has always been about love, and how it makes us human. It also ties sideways into the "union" theme as I discussed above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt Christopher Donovan Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 But.....then...why do you care about the length of the SDF-1 at all? See - this view that it doesn't matter if it's Robotech OR Macross... really? I actually tend to think it does matter. If we're going to try to speak like tech-heads about scientific matters in a fictional universe, it would, I imagine, help to at least agree on what universe we're talking about. I just find it contradictory to say on the one hand that you don't accept explenations like artistic license, but on the other hand you don't care whether we're talking about Robotech or Macross - two completely different shows. I bring this up only because in the case of designs for characters, uniforms and even MECHA - Kawamori has made it pretty clear that the designs from DYRL are the generally "cannon" ones - or at least the ones he prefers. It was DYRL that took great pains to be super accurate with the mecha - including the SDF-1. So the most immediate thing that comes to mind when you say "who cares if it's Macross OR Robtoech is" - well..Macross fans care. Robotech fans might have a "who cares" approach - you'd have to not really care what show it is you're watching to enjoy something that is composed of three different anime randomly put together. Macross fans, on the other hand, DO CARE what they're watching. And if we're going to talk about Mecha and technology and the SDF-1 in MACROSS - then really we need to be discussing DYRL because THAT is what Kawamori has used as the basis for mecha design in ALL future series and THAT is what Yamato and toy/model designers (Hasegawa) have used as the basis for their model designs. And that is NOT Robotech. Are we learning yet? Pete Setting aside your snide tone, it's not going to kill me one way or the other what I ultimately find out. Macross (the original) and Robotech use the exact same footage for their visuals, so Robotech vs Macross is irrelevant in that sense. That is the visual material I have to study, and I do not feel that it supports the "canon" 1.2k figure. If DYRL is considered a retcon of the original Macross, I would be willing to look at it and make a judgement accordingly as to what I see. Is there a good site where I can get good, viewable screen caps of that SDF-1, interior and exterior? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taksraven Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 *YAWN* ZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz........................ Taksraven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seto Kaiba Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 (edited) Not really. "Invid heaven" could mean any number of things. Perhaps Scott is offered in his death the chance to "ascend" as the invid have ascended, uniting man and Invid and paving the way to peace between the two after the fall of the Haydonites. Eh, six of one, half a dozen of the other... Scott still died and went to another place full of bright white light to be with his dead Invid girlfriend. Most people would sum that up as "Invid heaven", but whatever floats your boat. He and Ariel could be truly united in that way after her "sacrifice" making it the ultimate completion of the theme of unity of differences as embodied by human/alien union (Max/Myria, Dana/Zor, Scott/Marlene), a concept that goes all the way back to the first of Robotech. Which is funny, because Robotech's storytelling is typically follows the model of "humanity vs the evil aliens", and the aliens invariably end up either being wiped out to the last man, or are liberated from a more evil alien race only to end up subordinate to the human forces. Since Prelude pretty much recanonized big chunks of the Sentinels comics, that really kind of brings it full circle to the McKinneyist outcome where humanity is ultimately the source of all the universe's evils. (which is lulzy for several reasons) Macross (the original) and Robotech use the exact same footage for their visuals, so Robotech vs Macross is irrelevant in that sense. That is the visual material I have to study, and I do not feel that it supports the "canon" 1.2k figure. You might not like his tone, but he raises a good point. The attitude that the differences between Robotech and Macross don't matter might fly with Robotech fans (who are used to excusing large discontinuities and total disconnects because of the nature of their favorite show), but it usually does not fly with Macross fans and in chats about Macross, because like as not, they are different universes. The only thing they have in common is the animation. You also have to remember that unlike Robotech, which cannot use the SDF-1 in anything except the Macross Saga and comic books, Macross has been able to bring the ship back (or others of its class) again and again... which really helps pin down things like size. Let's be honest here... the original Macross was not the highest quality production, even for its time. This is all hand-drawn animation, and so of course there are bound to be some inconsistencies... and not just in terms of goofs on the part of the animators, but also perspective. Subsequent productions have had much higher quality, which solves a lot of the problems like that. But the fact remains that Macross's creators have never once backed down from the 1,210/1,200m numbers they came up with for the size of the SDF-1 Macross pre- and post-refit. Frankly, in terms of scale to other objects of known size, the 1,210m number used in the TV series fits just fine. Yeah, it's a little unfeasible to cram 20,000 crew and 58,000 refugees into a ship that size, but hey, this is willing suspension of disbelief here. So long as the story is compelling and the characters are deep, who gives a damn if the ship theoretically should be shown to be a lot more crowded than it is? If DYRL is considered a retcon of the original Macross, I would be willing to look at it and make a judgement accordingly as to what I see. Is there a good site where I can get good, viewable screen caps of that SDF-1, interior and exterior? The canonicity of Macross: Do You Remember Love? is... complicated. I'm going to do my best to explain it, but I might get a bit wordy, so please bear with me. Macross: Do You Remember Love? isn't a retcon, per-se... it's an alternate depiction of the events of Space War 1 which were originally shown in the Super Dimension Fortress Macross TV series. Strictly speaking, Macross's creators maintain that the "true account of Space War 1" is somewhere between the different depictions of the war. Over the years, Macross's creators have used DYRL designs and TV designs side by side, depending on which version of the particular character or mecha they happen to prefer, though in some cases both versions of a mecha are canon, such as the SDF-1 w/ and w/o ARMDs... the former being the post-2012 refit version and mass-production model, or the VF-1's different hands and cockpit being a block upgrade. DYRL also has an odd status as an in-universe movie that came out in 2031 and inspired many of the characters in later shows to pursue careers in music, though there is some indication that the in-universe version differs somewhat, including the wedding of Max and Milia, which isn't actually in DYRL. On the other hand, the alternate universe continuity of Macross II: Lovers Again treats DYRL as the 100% accurate depiction of Space War 1, and the TV series as non-canon. Much less confusing that way. If you're still with me after that, Mr. March's website, the Macross Mecha Manual, has a section devoted to DYRL which includes a page devoted to the DYRL-variant SDF-1 Macross. Among the lineart entries is one particular piece which is printed in a few artbooks, and shows the orientation of part of the city inside the engine blocks ("legs") of the Macross. You can find the DYRL SDF-1 variant here, the city section art is at the very bottom of the "line art" part of the article. If you want to see the movie itself, there's a fan-dub available on YouTube, and most reputable torrent sites have one or more releases of the movie. EDIT: Because that third-to-last paragraph was a MESS! Edited October 23, 2009 by Seto Kaiba Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 Setting aside your snide tone, it's not going to kill me one way or the other what I ultimately find out. Macross (the original) and Robotech use the exact same footage for their visuals, so Robotech vs Macross is irrelevant in that sense. That is the visual material I have to study, and I do not feel that it supports the "canon" 1.2k figure. If DYRL is considered a retcon of the original Macross, I would be willing to look at it and make a judgement accordingly as to what I see. Is there a good site where I can get good, viewable screen caps of that SDF-1, interior and exterior? The DYRL Macross is a refit of the original ship, bigger to begin with. Do me a favor, cut the crap about whatever it is you're going on about, and find yourself a copy of Macross Frontier. -It's 25 episodes -Easily enough found if you even remotely try. Go watch some "Macross" that you won't have robotech colored glasses to view through, and then come back here to show your post tone. For the record: -I've seen all of Robotech during its original 85 run -Rewatched the Macross portion on VHS via rental 10 or so years after that My story is an interesting one, for you see while I may have metamorphisized into a super Otaking Macross fan, I started out with humbler beginnings. Hell, I didn't even go full speed into anime until the character designs in RPG's reminded me that it existed. Ah SES/Sega CD era, turly a renissaunce. But one day, the Holy Froating head sent me a dream, in this dream, a familiar ship, with familiar characters appeared. And this ship was called "Macross." I awoke from this magical dream, and thought to myself, "damn, that makes a hell of a lot more sense than SDF-1." And so began my journey of awesomeness. After hitting some internet searches, reasearching what limited info there was at the time, and chatting aorund a bit, I became aware of something called "Macross Plus." A hop, skip, and a jump to a shop we used to call "The Wherehouse" back in the day, led me to pick up the first VHS volume of this. After royally knocking my socks off, I went back the next day and picked up the following 3 volumes, and enjoyed infinate levels of awesome. Some more research and what not later, sci-fi channel yearly anime festivals (it was such a better channel back then) some mre futzing around with anime reccomendations, and more investigation back into Robotech is what led me to rent the Macross portion of "that" series again. Being much older than I was during my first viewing however, it just didn't sit at all well with me. And now, I find it hard to believe that "any" adult would choose to watch that badly dubbed badly re-written ear piercing drivel. But that's besides the point. What I'd like for you to do is experience Macross in a fresh context, Frontier being the newest incarnation, and a highly accessible one at that, I think will give you, if you really are here of an interest nature, and not to troll, a little insight into what it is we're all talking about here. In my long years of fandom, I've come to learn that there are truly only two kinds of Robotech fans. Catapillers waiting to blossum into beautiful Macross loving butterflies, and sci-fi nerd buttom feeders who revel in watching absolute sh!te for the sake of it, claiming it has some kind of quality that no one in their right mind would even bother to look for. The kind of people that even the most laughed at hardcore ST: Voyager fans laugh at. So like I said, watch all 25 episodes of Frontier, and we'll see if we can get you on the straight and narrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seto Kaiba Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 (edited) Speaking of hate mail, I received another delightful private message from our good friend Pizza the Hutt/Wraith_Knight/Ghost Maker/we don't know what he calls himself here because he's never worked up the courage to post. It seems he took considerable umbridge over my description of his recent behavior, and took it upon himself to convey the severity of his displeasure in the same comical fashion he used to badmouth so many others on RobotechX. For Capt Christopher Donovan's benefit, I'll remind everyone that he's been sending hostile messages like this to people for ages, usually with no provocation. Pizza's one of those aforementioned Robotech die-hards who has an inexplicable axe to grind where Macross is concerned, and feels that anyone who criticizes Harmony Gold and/or Robotech is 1.) not a real Robotech fan, and 2.) a "Macross purist troll" engaged in some grand and pointless conspiracy to ruin the fun of the "real" Robotech fans (the people who think Shadow Chronicles is perfect and Harmony Gold is staffed by people who are all more wonderful than Mary Poppins). And now, the lulzy message itself: Well *****,seems you become more of a son of a hoe seeing you go to the extreme of name calling and heavy insults,lets see,I really cannot think of anything bad to say about you because only your pathetic parents are at falt that you are such a apeface and your head is so far up your ass with macross and your poor fake knowledge of macross legal rights,that you can see your pathetic mothers teeth.You seem only happy making people miserable who are not up to your psycho standards,and as a former prison officer,I seen plenty of your kind,arrogent sons of hoes who think their doo doo does not stink who takes things for granted,then they snap and do bad things and end up in jail being ass rammed.I cannot wait to see you in that life,seeing your tantrums and arrogence,it may not be so long..Sad thing also,you would not be stupid to my face,sad you too hide behind a key board and talk poo.But I blame your pathetic parents for making you a arrogent spoiled apeface,so that means your mom and dad are too Edited October 23, 2009 by Seto Kaiba Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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