Capt Christopher Donovan

There is a middle ground between "God's gift" (which I have NEVER claimed) and "worthless trash" (claimed by Seto, you, etc). Robotech isn't perfect, but it isn't worthless either. I'm a fan of Robotech, and I have nothing to be ashamed of. I refuse to allow myself to be segregated to the back of the fan "bus", by you, by Seto, or by anyone else. I've "attacked" NO ONE who hasn't attacked me and/or my fandom first.

If you're so thin skinned and weak stomached that THIS makes you ill, then you've obviously got bigger problems.

Oh yes, it's SOOO insulting that someone thinks enough of a work to include it as part of what they're doing... I rarely get this direct, but you remind me of a three-year old: "Johnny's icky! I don't want Johnny playing with the same toys as me!" The only difference between you (and more than a few posters here) and MEMO and Pizza is which side of the fence you're on.

No, it's a recognition that readers often find things that resonate with them in a work that aren't strictly what the author himself consciously put it. That doen't make them invalid, just not necessarily intended. Thanks for the info.

Borrowing a bit from Macross, Battletech AND Robotech (prime storyline) plus a bit of my own invention (some new ships, new alien races, etc). Since it's purely for the enjoyment of myself/my game group and not going to be published I don't see why anyone else should care one way or the other.

Thanks for the info...

Yeah, it is! I'm planning on incorporating it into an RPG I'm trying to get going.

the other site that has this designates it the AF-49...does anyone know which is the correct designation?

Writers sometimes incorporate far more into their work than even THEY know. It woudln't be the first time. And, after reviewing the treatment for the next part HappyPenguins was kind enough to send me, it turns out I was absolutely right about the situation with Scott/Ariel. Only because the story is not yet done. The treatment establishes that the end result of all that pain and suffering is the beginning of man's (and Tirolians, and Zentradi, etc) ascent to the "next level of development". The genocides and holocausts are "birth pains" in the development of the collected "human" race beyond it's present state. And Treknologists (ie, "Trek gear heads") argue that all the time. There's only really been ONE set that frakked up big time, and that was the Rec Deck from TMP. That propulsion system still has to push some 18 million+ mt of ship...you aren't going to do that with some ion thruster. And a pulse rocket is going to HAVE to have much bigger engines. Not to split further hairs, but isn't Valkyrie only applicable to the original F-14 inspired fighters? The latter mecha have their own designations ("Invader", "Nightmare", etc). The ones I had were indeed the VF-17D "Nightmare" and the AF-49. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. If we're going to get along at all in here, we're simply going to have to agree to disagree and move on. My interests at present are pretty specific in the type of information I'm looking for and once obtaining it, I'll probably be doing more "lurking" than posting. Either way, I'm through arguing.

There's no excuse for Pizza's behavior. That is simply uncalled for. By the same token, you just couldn't pass up the opportunity to passive-aggressively rip on Robotech and it's fans AGAIN based on your problem with Pizza. That's uncalled for as well...

And that is an invalid story point why? Only if you stop at that VERY superficial analysis of the story. Those "evil aliens" thematically represent aspects of humanity that are problematic taken to a theatrical degree. The Zentradi represent "baser" traits: naked agression, authoritarianism and blind conformity. The Robotech Masters also represent the last two traits and add, for want of a better way of putting it, the concept of intellect run amok, unchained by the "higher angels" of human nature. The Invid take a different tack, with aspects of the preceeding faults combined into a dangerously blind faith in not their own rightness (hubris, if you will). You can say that, per McKinney, humanity is the source of all the universe's evils, but that analysis leaves out humanity's role in CURING those same evils. If you are content to just accept whatever you are told at face value. On the one hand you are right...I'm not going to STOP liking Robotech (and or Macross, if I ever get a chance to see it) over the issue. However, I do enjoy the intellectual exercise of trying to come to a conclusion that fits the facts I have on hand. Thanks for taking the time to explain that...that definitely muddies the water doesn't it? Ah yes, I'd seen that before (just didn't know that was the site that was being referenced. I have to reject that city scheme out of hand. Where are the frakking engines if you put the city there? All you have are the thrust nozzles. It makes ZERO sense. The only really believable place is in the "torso" or "center" of the fortress (depending on mode), and for THAT to work you need a much bigger ship. While I'm here, I have images of veritechs based on the F-117 AND the B-2, but can't find their origins...can anyone help me out there?

Setting aside your snide tone, it's not going to kill me one way or the other what I ultimately find out. Macross (the original) and Robotech use the exact same footage for their visuals, so Robotech vs Macross is irrelevant in that sense. That is the visual material I have to study, and I do not feel that it supports the "canon" 1.2k figure. If DYRL is considered a retcon of the original Macross, I would be willing to look at it and make a judgement accordingly as to what I see. Is there a good site where I can get good, viewable screen caps of that SDF-1, interior and exterior?

Not really. "Invid heaven" could mean any number of things. Perhaps Scott is offered in his death the chance to "ascend" as the invid have ascended, uniting man and Invid and paving the way to peace between the two after the fall of the Haydonites. He and Ariel could be truly united in that way after her "sacrifice" making it the ultimate completion of the theme of unity of differences as embodied by human/alien union (Max/Myria, Dana/Zor, Scott/Marlene), a concept that goes all the way back to the first of Robotech. Janice singing to the Haydonites to rekindle emotions mirrors Minmay doing something similar to the Zentradi. It's a "history cycle" concept that has been hinted at before in Robotech. The power of love in Robotech is represented by song, and at it's core Robotech has always been about love, and how it makes us human. It also ties sideways into the "union" theme as I discussed above.

Well, I haven't done a frame-by-frame multiple angle study or anyting, but my intitial impression after having rewatched the entire first series and considering the internal shots and the dialogue, I'm leaning towards 2 to 3 x the stated dimensions.

Could I have a copy too?

I think it would depend on how it was done. None of that is a deal breaker for me, and some of it you have to admit is a ballsy move (killing TWO leads, for example).

Thank you.

Of that I have no doubt. That does not render Robotech itself without artistic merit on it's own basis. I would not call a person who feels Robotech lacks artistic merit a "fan" of Robotech.

Not really, other than a few at the beginning of TNG, the "modern" Treks were done by an entirely NEW staff. True as far as it goes, but Shadow Chronicles IS a sequel to all of ROBOTECH that came before it. The complaint was that Shadow Chronicles was "unoriginal" and "pilfered" becasue it used previous elements of ROBOTECH (not Macross), a claim that is spurious on it's face. A Robotech continuation is logically going to build on elements of the prior Robotech installments, including Sentinels. And if it looks like I'm working BACKWARDS in responding to posts, to a degree I am. I couldn't remember where I left off so I started with the "newest" page first.

Those are at least fair and debateable crits. I'd be very interested in seeing SR get finished, preferably by the team that did SC. I've enver understood the big deal about taking comics, esp superheroes and such "live action" when animation is the superior venue for such storytelling.

I would hesitate to call someone who held that beleif a "fan" of the material myself...but be that as it may, many fans do NOT feel that way as well, so making common cause with just the alleged "fans" that agree with you is shady debating logic at best.

I don't care if it's Robotech OR Macross, it's the same SDF-1, and furthermore I personally don't care if it's printed in Japanese, Swahilli, or Sanskrit. 1.2 km doesn't make sense to me, nor do I feel it matches the visuals.

As you can see, I'm still here, and I did get your recommendation for Mr March's site, thank you for sharing it. Different conversation entirely. Admittedly I was a bit distracted. Being accused either indirectly or directly of eithe having an STD, being the same as a domestic violence victim, or generally being a HG stooge (after I repeatedly said I was not a fan of the BUSINESS practices of HG), tends to make me a bit pissed off. I don't take basher crap off of anti-Browncoats or Enterprise bashers, and I'm not about to take it off of elitist snobs like many of the posters here appear to be. And I'm still being a lot more polite than I really feel. No, that's the question that initially led me to this site. I come from a tradition of "tech talk" (the "treknology" school) that isn't satisfied by an official pronouncement and "artistic license". The ultimate answer is nice, but so is the debate.

Change Robotech and Macross around and you have Seto, et al...the sword cuts both ways.

Which is what I've been saying since the beginning... he CLAIMS he came here to talk mecha, but so far all he's shown is that he's suffering from some bizarre compulsion to try to defend Robotech from perfectly legitimate criticism. "Legitimate criticism" and bashing statements about "hacks" and "fanboys" and complete and utter dismissal of any worth whatsoever in Robotech are different things. You need to learn the difference. I have every right to insist on defending Robotech if you insist on your elitist bashing of it. I would not even know (or give a flying frak) about Macross ANYTHING were it not for Robotech introducing me to it, as thefriend friend I quoted pointed out. Furthermore, I am around in the other theads, reading and learning (at least as much as I care to). Why would I open myself up as flame bait for your anti-Robotech trolling by replying in ways that (at present) would invite such a response? You're lucky I (or any other casual fan/passer by) that isn't a part of your little "purist" clique even bother to visit, given the sh*tty reception I've been given by 99% of the respondants.