HG and Robotech Debates

[VFTF1]

What was it about Robotech that made it more palatable for you?

Isn't it obvious?

FLOWER POWER!!

Pete

[Einherjar]

Save, was that in regards to DougBendo??? While I have listened to his show (not as of late), Doug's show had some things that bothered me, namely the unfounded hatred for Macross and anything of it's offshoots. His videocasts on Youtube were a little disturbing too, but other than that, his show was decent.

I don't think you're missing much recently. He posted the entire MacF soundtrack on his show and is now getting advice from MEMO for the 00 show. Which is strange because it goes against a lot of what he's been on the show.

His recent activity has been disturbing too. A complete 180 from who he's always been.

Edited October 13, 2009 by Einherjar

[Gubaba]

I don't think you're missing much recently. He posted the entire MacF soundtrack on his show and is now getting advice from MEMO for the 00 show. Which is strange because it goes against a lot of what he's been on the show.

I listened (oh excuse me, I mean "lessoned") to the intro the 00 show, but I doubt I'll "lesson" to more, unless I'm really, REALLY bored some day. Everyone seems to be saying it's much more professional, but hashing out a coherent timeline and continuity for Robotech seems to me like a fool's errand, at best. If he can make it work, great. But it really seems like a huge mountain that doesn't need to be climbed.

[Einherjar]

Everyone seems to be saying it's much more professional, but hashing out a coherent timeline and continuity for Robotech seems to me like a fool's errand, at best.

That sounds like one of the many things he's done repeatedly on his show, like reviewing Shadow Chronicles.

[Jasonc]

I don't think you're missing much recently. He posted the entire MacF soundtrack on his show and is now getting advice from MEMO for the 00 show. Which is strange because it goes against a lot of what he's been on the show.

Yeah, I remember that being mentioned. After listening to the JT podcast, it made me realize that I really have nothing against Robotech fans (how could I when I, in fact, like the "original" airing of it). What the podcast made me realize is that even some of the level headed fans can't stand the way some of their own act like Robotech in their perception, is the absolute gospel, and that's the way it goes. I also like the fact that he can read through much of the B.S. that the staff spits out as gospel, and those fans that are a little too fanatic take as the undeniable truth. Case in point, at Macrossworld con 09, I asked Tommy Yune a simple straight forward question about what he thought the chances of the LAM coming out was. Now, knowing that there isn't a budget, no finished story, no cast, no full staff, and no green light for shooting, I asked because of certain delays they've had. To my surprise, he told me 98% positive it would happen. Now, even when asked for the non RT spokesman percentage, he still insisted this, even with so many uncertainties floating around. Several days later, I saw a post in which someone who happened to be listening say it as the absolute gospel. Him and I kinda got into a debate about it, simply because 98% just isn't a feasible number when nothings really done. His basis for the whole argument??? Cause Tommy said. Do some of these fans think for themselves. Some do, some don't, but what can you do? I would've believed a 75-80% chance, heck, even 85%, but not 98%. Then to have some brainless RT fan start posting his "findings" as some area 51 secret he found, and quote is as truth is just stupid. What is sad, is that is the type of fans Robotech is searching for these days. Fans who don't give a flip about what's really out there, and what maybe hard facts, just what HG staff say. Then, as in more cases that keep popping up, the fans who don't comply are "Macross Purists", and not true fans.

It's sad when you think about it. True fans will do what they can to save a franchise they support when it's going down the drain, IMHO. Someone along for the ride will just let everything go. In that statement, it seems that Robotech is being replaced by people who aren't fans at all, but by people content in it sinking. While most of the people here may not care, I'm on the fence. Not in a perplexed and complex manner, but moreso in the fact that while I was a Macross fan before Robotech was even over here, it was Robotech who helped make it understandable, and it was Robotech who gave me a love for Mospeada, and an appreciation for Southern Cross. The VA's were great, the music was great, and while we nitpick it to death here, there are some merits to it, and it does have it's place in helping bring Macross to many here who would have no clue about it otherwise. Yes, I'm probably rambling, but that's what good medicine will do when you're in pain, hahaha.

[ruskiiVFaussie]

Got nothing against the Engish Dub of macross (albeit anlternte story take), i can't bare to mention the american label name of it now of course,

but that's all i'll ever care for, anything else is irrelevant. Producing extra stuff to continue Mospeada is a good thing, but playing on Macross is stupid.

Edited October 14, 2009 by ruskiiVFaussie

[Whamhammer]

I seriously would like someone to point me to some half way intelligent reasons being given by a Robotech fan why the series is worth it... I mean...anywhere. Any. At all.

I get the feeling that Macross fans who criticize Robotech actually love it more than Robotech fans - because when they criticize, they keep referencing particular episodes, novels and story lines - ergo demonstrating they have read, viewed and thought about what they are discussing...

Do Robotech fans even actually... you know...watch the series anymore? Or read the novels? Or anything?

Pete

Is there truely a desire for you to understand why a person likes Robotech? Or is it a critisism?

An "intelligent reason" on the "worth" (ie. value) of anything is always subjective. One man's pain can be anothers pleasure. I like pizza, but I dont like sprouts. Porsche fans love thier Porsches and dont get why people buy Corvettes, and visa-versa. My preference doesnt make one better than the other (or any worse, for that matter). I like it, therefore it has value to me. You dont like it, therefore it has less or no value to you. Theres no reason to win you over to that concept. It is akin trying to win a Porsche afficianado over to the concept of preffering a Corvette.

The intelligent reasoning would be, that as long as both fans respect each others preferences , respect for the individual is maintained. Does prooving that one is right about a cartoon and another is wrong change the whole scope of things? ITS A CARTOON!!! ( I know, its anime, but I'm going for the effect here.)

[Whamhammer]

Yeah, I remember that being mentioned. After listening to the JT podcast, it made me realize that I really have nothing against Robotech fans (how could I when I, in fact, like the "original" airing of it). What the podcast made me realize is that even some of the level headed fans can't stand the way some of their own act like Robotech in their perception, is the absolute gospel, and that's the way it goes. I also like the fact that he can read through much of the B.S. that the staff spits out as gospel, and those fans that are a little too fanatic take as the undeniable truth. Case in point, at Macrossworld con 09, I asked Tommy Yune a simple straight forward question about what he thought the chances of the LAM coming out was. Now, knowing that there isn't a budget, no finished story, no cast, no full staff, and no green light for shooting, I asked because of certain delays they've had. To my surprise, he told me 98% positive it would happen. Now, even when asked for the non RT spokesman percentage, he still insisted this, even with so many uncertainties floating around. Several days later, I saw a post in which someone who happened to be listening say it as the absolute gospel. Him and I kinda got into a debate about it, simply because 98% just isn't a feasible number when nothings really done. His basis for the whole argument??? Cause Tommy said. Do some of these fans think for themselves. Some do, some don't, but what can you do? I would've believed a 75-80% chance, heck, even 85%, but not 98%. Then to have some brainless RT fan start posting his "findings" as some area 51 secret he found, and quote is as truth is just stupid. What is sad, is that is the type of fans Robotech is searching for these days. Fans who don't give a flip about what's really out there, and what maybe hard facts, just what HG staff say. Then, as in more cases that keep popping up, the fans who don't comply are "Macross Purists", and not true fans.

It's sad when you think about it. True fans will do what they can to save a franchise they support when it's going down the drain, IMHO. Someone along for the ride will just let everything go. In that statement, it seems that Robotech is being replaced by people who aren't fans at all, but by people content in it sinking. While most of the people here may not care, I'm on the fence. Not in a perplexed and complex manner, but moreso in the fact that while I was a Macross fan before Robotech was even over here, it was Robotech who helped make it understandable, and it was Robotech who gave me a love for Mospeada, and an appreciation for Southern Cross. The VA's were great, the music was great, and while we nitpick it to death here, there are some merits to it, and it does have it's place in helping bring Macross to many here who would have no clue about it otherwise. Yes, I'm probably rambling, but that's what good medicine will do when you're in pain, hahaha.

When it comes to the movies chances. Untill it becomes a reality , no matter the percentage is, its just a chance. Most of the time ,a persons pulling a number out thier arses.

On the last paragraph there Jason, I live in Maryland. We didnt have much exposure to anime where I was (an especially where my parents would take the family). Sure, we saw StarBlazers on t.v., but that was about it and it stopped airing where I could see it in 1981. I'm trying to forget Tranzor Z, so I wont even go there. The way the markets were over on this side of the country, I honestly believe Macross wouldnt've been aired in its original format. I wouldve been in Transformers, GoBots and G.I.Joe hell. (notto mention M.A.S.K. eeeeeeew!!) I know Southern Cross and Moseapda wouldnt have had a snowballs chance of airing at all, and those parts are what I enjoy the most.

Keep in mind I didnt even see the "Macross" portion of Robotech untill like a year and a half after I saw the rest by sheer luck (or un-luck if you will) of scheduling and switching between schools ( it aired at 2:30 , my first school got out at 2:00 and the newer school was at 3:00) so I didnt even have that portion of exposure "Macross"wise.

I would "like to save Robotech". But I dont want to do it just to make Harmony Gold money to just put stuff out and treat fans and customers without respect. If H.G. changes the way it does thing, great. If H.G. lets someone else who is willing to treat new Robotech projects with some professional pride that would be even better. Will either happen, odds are , no. The fence is really the only place to sit these days.

[Freiflug88]

So you can't be entertaining AND faithful?

Peronsally, I'd rather see a movie/read a book/watch a show that assumes I don't need everything calibrated specifically to my cultural background in order for me to enjoy it.

Or let me put it another way...if there had been a better, uncut version of Macross out there instead of Robotech, are you saying that wouldn't have been enough to get you into it? What was it about Robotech that made it more palatable for you?

Don't get me wrong I enjoy entertaining AND faithful, but when the choice is entertaining OR faithful I choose entertaining especially when I am re-watching an anime. When I have time I will sometimes rewatch a series in its more faithful subbed version to see if its really different and if I missed anything, but if I feel I am not missing anything and the English Dub is entertaining and more or less on par with the quality of the Japanese Dub then I like to enjoy it in my own language. For me every anime release is an individual case though so while I may prefer watching ADV's English Dub of Evangelion I absolutely can't stand their dubbing of classics like Macross or Gatchaman and I will only listen to the Japanese Dub.

Let me explain. I had seen almost all of Robotech and Macross, before I had even seen SDF Macross. After watching DYRL I was just DYING to see SDF Macross with the original songs, storyline, etc that I had been missing out on. Of course when I finally found and watched SDF Macross I was blown away and enjoyed it more then Robotech: The Macross Saga, but I still enjoy watching the "Bumbling Asteroids" moments of Robotech. Had their been a better, uncut version of RT: The Macross Saga been shown to me that kept Minmay's original songs that were actually in sync, Macross's definition of Protoculture, etc. then I would not have felt like I was missing out on so much and I wouldn't have felt desperate to actually hunt down and watch SDF Macross in its original form. A better version of the Macross Saga wouldn't keep me from actually enjoying the Original Japanese SDF Macross at all once I sat down and watched it eventually though.

[UN_MARINE]

Is there truely a desire for you to understand why a person likes Robotech? Or is it a critisism?

actually, yes. i for one would like to understand why some people prefer Robotech over the original shows.

An "intelligent reason" on the "worth" (ie. value) of anything is always subjective. One man's pain can be anothers pleasure. I like pizza, but I dont like sprouts. Porsche fans love thier Porsches and dont get why people buy Corvettes, and visa-versa. My preference doesnt make one better than the other (or any worse, for that matter). I like it, therefore it has value to me. You dont like it, therefore it has less or no value to you. Theres no reason to win you over to that concept. It is akin trying to win a Porsche afficianado over to the concept of preffering a Corvette.

subjective, yes. but it would be enlightening if the "why" was explained instead of "just because".

is there something you find more preferable in the repackaged version over the original?

take the Beagle Ride armor for example. there's the Robotech version & the Mospeada version.

what makes somebody prefer one over the other? it's not a question on which is better or has less value.

The intelligent reasoning would be, that as long as both fans respect each others preferences , respect for the individual is maintained. Does prooving that one is right about a cartoon and another is wrong change the whole scope of things? ITS A CARTOON!!! ( I know, its anime, but I'm going for the effect here.)

no doubt, the respect is there. it just gets distorted by a few bad eggs.

thankfully, the majority of people here are rational & level-headed.

though i have to say that "ITS A CARTOON!!!" doesn't make the discussion less valid.

"it's (just) a cartoon" is how we ended up with the bad GI Joe & Transformers movies.

[Einherjar]

Here’s some thought provoking reasoning for conversation; how can someone truly enjoy something when its success, ongoing success, or the owner’s insistence of its focus for continued success comes at the expense of something and someone else? In this case, Macross and a little bit of Mechwarrior.

I wonder about things like that too.

Edited October 13, 2009 by Einherjar

[VFTF1]

I'm with UN Marine.

I authentically want to know what people see in Robotech that makes them stick to it. The only things I could concievably come up with are the RPGs which I thought were very, very cool - but really, the RPG could just as well have been called 'Macross' since most of the time you could play without knowing a thing about the show, the plot of the show etc etc (which is how I played it when I was a kid). I understand the whole "Robotech made a contribution to bringing anime to America" but dung-houses were a big advancement over taking a sh!t in the grass next to your hut, but you don't see people refusing modern toilets because dung-houses (wooden shack built over deep hole where you sh!t could fall) were a historical milestone in feaces disposal.

As to the "I like apples, you like oranges" (value relativism) point - yes. Of course. You're right. But you're only right as a matter of pure praxeology. However, just because we ought to tolerate one another's preferences doesn't mean we can't discuss them critically, and it also doesn't mean that all values are merely subjective in a pure sense. We make choices based on our thinking and feeling about something, and we take into account outside factors.

Now - I'm not saying that there's a "right" choice here - I'm not saying Robotech fans are somehow "obliged" to "justify" their hobby or switch to Macross. All I'm saying is - I just wonder what people like about it. I wonder whether people can give some coherent arguments for it - can give reasons why it is interesting and, more importantly, why it is more interesting than Macross - interesting enough that you'd rather follow it than Macross, or that you can follow both etc.

Final point - since nobody is advocating the oppression of Robotech fans or the forced conversion of Robotech fans to Macross, I see not reason to bring up the "values" argument since nobody is questioning Robotech fans right to hold their values for their own reasons. In fact, I usually find that when someone can't give any reasons, he resorts to the "everyone has subjective values" argument, as if opinions are all just random and people have no reason for holding them.

I for one try to think about what is most enjoyable and I am happy when other people give thoughtful reasons for why they enjoy what they enjoy, because it helps me learn from them.

So...again I ask the question: why do people like Robotech? What's so compelling about the story, characters, plot etc that people call themselves Robotech fans?

Because so far, all I've seen (and I'll admit it might be because I haven't seen very much), are the following reasons:

1. Because HG's terms of use don't allow me to even google Macross and find out how awesome the series is, so instead I spend my whole time at RT.com repeating what Memo tells me.

2. Because I really want to know what happened to Rick Hunter

3. Because I remember it from when I was a kid

4. Because I don't know anything about Macross, and keep conflating the two.

But never ever any actual reasons. Like...

Remember the great discussions we had following each consecutive episode of MF on these boards? Remember all the topics about SDFM TV vs. DYRL? Heck - even the impassioned Macross 7 hate threads.

All of them are choke full of thoughtful arguments, humor, analysis and people showing a real passion for the stories, characters and mecha - one way or another.

I go on RT.com and I don't see that with regard to Robtoech.

All they are preoccupied with is WHEN the LAM will come out. WHAT rights HG has and doesn't have etc etc. It's all technicalities. I don't see any love of the actual shows. I don't see any "Strike a Pose" topics with people showing off their "Masterpiece" Veritechs...

I just see lots and lots of legal bumbojumbo...

Pete

[Einherjar]

Remember the great discussions we had following each consecutive episode of MF on these boards? Remember all the topics about SDFM TV vs. DYRL? Heck - even the impassioned Macross 7 hate threads.

All of them are choke full of thoughtful arguments, humor, analysis and people showing a real passion for the stories, characters and mecha - one way or another.

I go on RT.com and I don't see that with regard to Robtoech.

All they are preoccupied with is WHEN the LAM will come out. WHAT rights HG has and doesn't have etc etc. It's all technicalities. I don't see any love of the actual shows. I don't see any "Strike a Pose" topics with people showing off their "Masterpiece" Veritechs...

I just see lots and lots of legal bumbojumbo...

It's a corporate site, remember? They can't express themselves in those ways there like we do. You have to go to other places to find that.

[MastaEgg]

Don't get me wrong I enjoy entertaining AND faithful, but when the choice is entertaining OR faithful I choose entertaining especially when I am re-watching an anime. When I have time I will sometimes rewatch a series in its more faithful subbed version to see if its really different and if I missed anything, but if I feel I am not missing anything and the English Dub is entertaining and more or less on par with the quality of the Japanese Dub then I like to enjoy it in my own language. For me every anime release is an individual case though so while I may prefer watching ADV's English Dub of Evangelion I absolutely can't stand their dubbing of classics like Macross or Gatchaman and I will only listen to the Japanese Dub.

Let me explain. I had seen almost all of Robotech and Macross, before I had even seen SDF Macross. After watching DYRL I was just DYING to see SDF Macross with the original songs, storyline, etc that I had been missing out on. Of course when I finally found and watched SDF Macross I was blown away and enjoyed it more then Robotech: The Macross Saga, but I still enjoy watching the "Bumbling Asteroids" moments of Robotech. Had their been a better, uncut version of RT: The Macross Saga been shown to me that kept Minmay's original songs that were actually in sync, Macross's definition of Protoculture, etc. then I would not have felt like I was missing out on so much and I wouldn't have felt desperate to actually hunt down and watch SDF Macross in its original form. A better version of the Macross Saga wouldn't keep me from actually enjoying the Original Japanese SDF Macross at all once I sat down and watched it eventually though.

I thought ADV did a pretty good job with the Macross dub, considering the source material HG gave them wasn't that great to begin with (compared with the superior video quality of the Japanese remaster). I remember reading how HG flew out to Japan to find better source masters only to come back empty handed because they thought their footage looked better. They even had the nerve to say the Japanese would now have to come to them to find the good stuff.

Edited October 13, 2009 by MastaEgg

[TheLoneWolf]

I remember reading how HG flew out to Japan to find better source masters only to come back empty handed because they thought their footage looked better. They even had the nerve to say the Japanese would now have to come to them to find the good stuff.

Just to clarify, but Harmony Gold was referring to Tatsunoko Production's master footage, not Big West's. I don't believe any of us have ever seen what Tatsunoko's footage looks like, so it's going to be hard to deny.

Ironically, Harmony Gold's claim that their Macross video was the cleanest was actually true for its time. Shawn reviewed the AnimEigo DVD's back then and confirmed that it was indeed superior to Bandai Visual's 2001 DVD release. Though, Harmony Gold probably should have mentioned that their masters were better due to AnimEigo's excellent restoration process.

[Gubaba]

Don't get me wrong I enjoy entertaining AND faithful, but when the choice is entertaining OR faithful I choose entertaining especially when I am re-watching an anime. When I have time I will sometimes rewatch a series in its more faithful subbed version to see if its really different and if I missed anything, but if I feel I am not missing anything and the English Dub is entertaining and more or less on par with the quality of the Japanese Dub then I like to enjoy it in my own language. For me every anime release is an individual case though so while I may prefer watching ADV's English Dub of Evangelion I absolutely can't stand their dubbing of classics like Macross or Gatchaman and I will only listen to the Japanese Dub.

Let me explain. I had seen almost all of Robotech and Macross, before I had even seen SDF Macross. After watching DYRL I was just DYING to see SDF Macross with the original songs, storyline, etc that I had been missing out on. Of course when I finally found and watched SDF Macross I was blown away and enjoyed it more then Robotech: The Macross Saga, but I still enjoy watching the "Bumbling Asteroids" moments of Robotech. Had their been a better, uncut version of RT: The Macross Saga been shown to me that kept Minmay's original songs that were actually in sync, Macross's definition of Protoculture, etc. then I would not have felt like I was missing out on so much and I wouldn't have felt desperate to actually hunt down and watch SDF Macross in its original form. A better version of the Macross Saga wouldn't keep me from actually enjoying the Original Japanese SDF Macross at all once I sat down and watched it eventually though.

That makes sense. Thanks for clarifying.

Just to clarify, but Harmony Gold was referring to Tatsunoko Production's master footage, not Big West's. I don't believe any of us have ever seen what Tatsunoko's footage looks like, so it's going to be hard to deny.

Ironically, Harmony Gold's claim that their Macross video was the cleanest was actually true for its time. Shawn reviewed the AnimEigo DVD's back then and confirmed that it was indeed superior to Bandai Visual's 2001 DVD release. Though, Harmony Gold probably should have mentioned that their masters were better due to AnimEigo's excellent restoration process.

It's also worth pointing out that the newest Japanese remaster is not really BETTER than the AnimEigo restoration...just different. The colors aren't as bright, but the details are clearer. I think both are equally good, just in different ways.

[Freiflug88]

I thought ADV did a pretty good job with the Macross dub, considering the source material HG gave them wasn't that great to begin with (compared with the superior video quality of the Japanese remaster). I remember reading how HG flew out to Japan to find better source masters only to come back empty handed because they thought their footage looked better. They even had the nerve to say the Japanese would now have to come to them to find the good stuff.

Its not the video quality that bothers me at all. It was listening to the Voice Acting for the English dub. Though if I had never watched Robotech and gotten used to how they sound, I might have been more forgiving of ADV's dub. After getting acquainted with how the character sounds its very hard to get used to new VA that sound very different. This is also why in Japan they will almost use the same VA that everyone is familiar with for every character iteration in the remakes.

Just to clarify, but Harmony Gold was referring to Tatsunoko Production's master footage, not Big West's. I don't believe any of us have ever seen what Tatsunoko's footage looks like, so it's going to be hard to deny.

Ironically, Harmony Gold's claim that their Macross video was the cleanest was actually true for its time. Shawn reviewed the AnimEigo DVD's back then and confirmed that it was indeed superior to Bandai Visual's 2001 DVD release. Though, Harmony Gold probably should have mentioned that their masters were better due to AnimEigo's excellent restoration process.

The Tatsunko footage will probably never be seen for very good reason, RedWolfe. The footage was heavily degraded because Tatsunko apparently never stored their Macross footage in a climate controled vault like Harmony Gold did with their Macross Master Footage. HG's carefully preserved 3rd generation Macross footage only marginally beat out Tatsunko's carelessly preserved 2nd generation Macross Footage according to Tommy Yune and Shin Kurokawa

http://robotech.com/news/viewarticle.php?id=191

The source material is in WHAT shape?

Since Robotech's edit of the footage in The Macross Saga differed from that of the Japanese Macross series, Shin Kurokawa of AnimEigo was unable to use Robotech's 1985 broadcast masters. He made arrangements through Harmony Gold to have animation footage delivered directly from Tatsunoko, the original production company. Everyone was stunned to discover that the delivered footage was in terrible shape.

Archivist Andre Alas was able to track down Harmony Gold's original film reels of Macross, which had been stored in a climate-controlled vault, safely away from the one that had been flooded years earlier. These reels had not been considered before because they did not match up with Robotech footage, but they would be useful again for the Japanese version of the Macross series. Sample footage was transfered to tape, and to everyone's horror ... the results were not much better. Shin then decided to personally oversee a digital transfer from the original film stock. A carefully tweaked transfer was found to be viable, but would still require extensive digital restoration to overcome dust, scratches, and hand-spliced damage inherent to the original film production process used decades ago. After countless sleepless nights and expenses shared by Harmony Gold, Shin had completed a pristine restoration of the Japanese Macross series that was clearer and brighter than originally broadcast!

As for the Remastered SDF Macross Released in Japan, I have heard that all the Remastered Macross in Japan: DYRL, Macross 7, Macross plus, and SDF were restored with Big West's original 35mm film masters.

Edit:

It's also worth pointing out that the newest Japanese remaster is not really BETTER than the AnimEigo restoration...just different. The colors aren't as bright, but the details are clearer. I think both are equally good, just in different ways.

The difference in color is most likely a result of AnimEigo tweaking the colors and covering up the film grain. For the Japanese Remasters Big West had access to the original Film masters that were likely better preserved then Tatsunko's or HG's Master footage so they probably didn't tweak the colors or try to hide the film grain much if at all, cause getting rid of film grain can wash details out if just use a filter in a video editing program.. Tweaking frame by frame in photoshop is another story.

Edited October 13, 2009 by Freiflug88

[Gubaba]

Its not the video quality that bothers me at all. It was listening to the Voice Acting for the English dub. Though if I had never watched Robotech and gotten used to how they sound, I might have been more forgiving of ADV's dub. After getting acquainted with how the character sounds its very hard to get used to new VA that sound very different. This is also why in Japan they will almost use the same VA that everyone is familiar with for every character iteration in the remakes.

The Tatsunko footage will probably never be seen for very good reason, RedWolfe. The footage was heavily degraded because Tatsunko apparently never stored their Macross footage in a climate controled vault like Harmony Gold did with their Macross Master Footage. HG's carefully preserved 3rd generation Macross footage only marginally beat out Tatsunko's carelessly preserved 2nd generation Macross Footage according to Tommy Yune and Shin Kurokawa

http://robotech.com/news/viewarticle.php?id=191

As for the Remastered SDF Macross Released in Japan, I have heard that all the Remastered Macross in Japan: DYRL, Macross 7, Macross plus, and SDF were restored with Big West's original 35mm film masters.

Edit:

The difference in color is most likely a result of AnimEigo tweaking the colors and covering up the film grain. For the Japanese Remasters Big West had access to the original Film masters that were likely better preserved then Tatsunko's or HG's Master footage so they probably didn't tweak the colors or try to hide the film grain much if at all, cause getting rid of film grain can wash details out if just use a filter in a video editing program.. Tweaking frame by frame in photoshop is another story.

Oh, believe me, I know. And TheLoneWolf has been at this longer than most of us, so you're not telling him anything he didn't already know, either.

And yeah, Clearly, AnimEigo tweaked the colors a bit and cleared up a lot of the scratches and blemishes and such, all of which are fully on display in the Japanese remaster.

It's weird, though...for some reason, watching Robotech as a kid, and later watching the AnimEigo set, I always through the stripes on Misa's uniform were blue, so I was always puzzled when they were green on all of Mikimoto's Misa art...and then I watch the Japanese remaster, and lo and behold, the stripes ARE green.

Is that just me, or did everyone have the same confusion?

[MastaEgg]

Bandai:

AnimEigo:

Her stripes are a bit more green... Like a dull green.

Here's another comparision:

Bandai:

AnimEigo:

My Bandai video is cropped for some reason. I hope its not like that on the DVDs.

[TheLoneWolf]

Is that just me, or did everyone have the same confusion?

Same here, I always thought they were supposed to be blue.

MastaEgg, are those Bandai Visual screencaps taken from a downloaded divx rip? The video looks like it's been artificially smoothened. And yes, the Bandai version is slightly cropped for some reason.

I've attached a screencap comparison taken directly from the actual discs. Sorry if the picture's not the best test candidate, but I honestly didn't spend much time on it.

[Freiflug88]

Oh, believe me, I know. And TheLoneWolf has been at this longer than most of us, so you're not telling him anything he didn't already know, either.

And yeah, Clearly, AnimEigo tweaked the colors a bit and cleared up a lot of the scratches and blemishes and such, all of which are fully on display in the Japanese remaster.

It's weird, though...for some reason, watching Robotech as a kid, and later watching the AnimEigo set, I always through the stripes on Misa's uniform were blue, so I was always puzzled when they were green on all of Mikimoto's Misa art...and then I watch the Japanese remaster, and lo and behold, the stripes ARE green.

Is that just me, or did everyone have the same confusion?

Never noticed the Green on Mikimoto's Misa art, but I always saw Misa's stripes as being blue as well. I was completely blown away when I saw the massive color difference in general.

My Bandai video is cropped for some reason. I hope its not like that on the DVDs.

Two similar Frames grabbed with DGMPEG Decoder from the SDF Remastered DVDs for comparison.

I did see tiny cropage with a very thin pixel line on the top of the video when I viewed the VOB files through VLC, but as you can see with the screen grabs here they its almost impossible to even notice otherwise.

EDIT:

You beat me to it LoneWolf!

Dam you Woooofff!

What did you use for the sceengrabs? Cause your images make the cropping on the Bandai DVDs look so much bigger then it actually is.

The Bandai DVDs are literally cropped by about five mere pixels by my estimate. (one on the left and 4 on top)

Edited October 14, 2009 by Freiflug88

[MastaEgg]

Yep, its a divx rip of the initial Macross broadcast special.

So Bandai did not remove the film grain?

[Freiflug88]

No they didn't remove the film grain cause removing film grain is also a double edged sword that smudges the sharp details as well. I barely notice the film grain though when I am watching the DVDs interlaced on my 37 inch TV. The film grain is really only noticable when your watching it progessive up-close to a Computer monitor. Its also why good fansubs always deinterlace and smooth video before releasing through the usual channels like with the SDF DVD rip you have encoded to DIVX. They know that fans will most likely watch the anime through their progressive Computer monitor.

[Jasonc]

The Bandai footage looks much better, I like how the lines seem much smoother, not as hard and contrasted as the Animeigo. Not that Animeigo did a bad job, but there is the balance of refinement and overdone.

[Save]

Save, was that in regards to DougBendo??? While I have listened to his show (not as of late), Doug's show had some things that bothered me, namely the unfounded hatred for Macross and anything of it's offshoots. His videocasts on Youtube were a little disturbing too, but other than that, his show was decent. I'm more fasciinated by this podcast by JT. It has that old time enthusiasm of Robotech that seems to have been gone from the franchise for I can't say how long. Reminds me of what it was like to be a fan of the series w/ fervor. Still like that about Macross though.

Yep DougBendo. Yeah his stuff a few month ago was a serious joke, but in the last few shows he improved his format and stopped acting like a loon from the future.

Edited October 14, 2009 by Save

[HappyPenguins]

Yep DougBendo. Yeah his stuff a few month ago was a serious joke, but in the last few shows he improved his format and stopped acting like a loon from the future.

I happen to know why this change with his show occurred, in fact he stopped sounding like a loon ever since myself, JT and a few others started joining his podcasts. We actually managed to get him to act civil, and get into serious discussions. He even acknowledged this in one of his recent episodes, that we changed it.

[Gubaba]

I happen to know why this change with his show occurred, in fact he stopped sounding like a loon ever since myself, JT and a few others started joining his podcasts. We actually managed to get him to act civil, and get into serious discussions. He even acknowledged this in one of his recent episodes, that we changed it.

This is insane. You and others have been lambasted by "influential" Robotech fans as closet "Macross Purists" and "Robotech Haters" (which I know you're not, because, being a Macross Purist myself, I can easily tell who is and who isn't. ), and yet...it seems like you guys are actually shaking up the Robotech fandom in a POSITIVE way.

What Khyron Prime said couldn't be accomplished through words, but other through confectionary IS NOW BEING ACCOMPLISHED...through words.

As I've said before, a Robotech revival is not high on my list of Things I Want to See, but still...bravo. Rock on with your bad selves.

[Zen72]

Hello Everyone!

First I want to say that I really appreciate the comments about The Protoculture Times. It has been humblng the reaction I've received and all the places where people are listening to it. It was a pleasant surprise when HP told me that people here had listened and I'm glad people have enjoyed it. I'm just a guy that does a podcast about Robotech and is having the time of his life with it! I've been a fan since 1985 and have enjoyed it ever since. This podcast is a tribute to it and despite its bumps in the road, to a fandom that still enjoys it.

And like I said in my Premier episode, no Macross, no Southern Cross, no Mospeada...no Robotech. I don't know why that statement is so taboo to some in the Robotech community.

When it comes to the state of the franchise, the results speak for themselves. Harmony Gold in 24 years since the Original 85.......<sighs>....they are going to do what they want to do...I can only hope they do something for the 25th anniversary...in the mean time...I'll celebrate Robotech on my own!

The way I look at Robotech on my show, seeing the good, the bad and ...the Shadow Chronicles, seems to have won me a label of miscreant by those who "in their minds" think that the Robotech fans are sheep in dire need to be guided by a shepherd. (i.e. Memo, Maverick). Does Harmony Gold really take these guys that seriously?

Their apparent bias on the Robotech.com forums has become evident. Banning people who dare question their "HG Bible" while turning a blind eye to some pathetic little psycho that signs his posts "Death to Macross Purists!!"....WTF is that all about? These Robotech.com mods couldn't moderate an argument between a rabbit and a mule over who has big ears!

That exclusionist attitude to those who like Robotech, but can point out the flaws in its management is what has turned so many old fans off. I try not to let it get to me and with my podcast, while I am very opinionated at times, fans are gonna decide how they see things, even if its to support Harmony Gold. but of their own free will. Something that seems to piss off people like Memo to no avail.....lol!

I could say so much more about the subject, but I've seen others on this and other forums have said it much better than I ever could...

In the end, I do my show...I'm proud of it! and am having a great time!...I'll have my detractors of course...but that's the nature of the beast...

And "Save"....there are more pressing matters in the world than my pronunciation of Robotech.....to-may-to...to-mah-to....lol!

Once again, thank you your comments, I really appreciate it!

Zen72-----JT

The Protoculture Times

www.protoculturetimes.com

[Gubaba]

Hello Everyone!

First I want to say that I really appreciate the comments about The Protoculture Times. It has been humblng the reaction I've received and all the places where people are listening to it. It was a pleasant surprise when HP told me that people here had listened and I'm glad people have enjoyed it. I'm just a guy that does a podcast about Robotech and is having the time of his life with it! I've been a fan since 1985 and have enjoyed it ever since. This podcast is a tribute to it and despite its bumps in the road, to a fandom that still enjoys it.

And like I said in my Premier episode, no Macross, no Southern Cross, no Mospeada...no Robotech. I don't know why that statement is so taboo to some in the Robotech community.

When it comes to the state of the franchise, the results speak for themselves. Harmony Gold in 24 years since the Original 85.......<sighs>....they are going to do what they want to do...I can only hope they do something for the 25th anniversary...in the mean time...I'll celebrate Robotech on my own!

The way I look at Robotech on my show, seeing the good, the bad and ...the Shadow Chronicles, seems to have won me a label of miscreant by those who "in their minds" think that the Robotech fans are sheep in dire need to be guided by a shepherd. (i.e. Memo, Maverick). Does Harmony Gold really take these guys that seriously?

Their apparent bias on the Robotech.com forums has become evident. Banning people who dare question their "HG Bible" while turning a blind eye to some pathetic little psycho that signs his posts "Death to Macross Purists!!"....WTF is that all about? These Robotech.com mods couldn't moderate an argument between a rabbit and a mule over who has big ears!

That exclusionist attitude to those who like Robotech, but can point out the flaws in its management is what has turned so many old fans off. I try not to let it get to me and with my podcast, while I am very opinionated at times, fans are gonna decide how they see things, even if its to support Harmony Gold. but of their own free will. Something that seems to piss off people like Memo to no avail.....lol!

I could say so much more about the subject, but I've seen others on this and other forums have said it much better than I ever could...

In the end, I do my show...I'm proud of it! and am having a great time!...I'll have my detractors of course...but that's the nature of the beast...

And "Save"....there are more pressing matters in the world than my pronunciation of Robotech.....to-may-to...to-mah-to....lol!

Once again, thank you your comments, I really appreciate it!

Zen72-----JT

The Protoculture Times

www.protoculturetimes.com

Again...good to see you here, and welcome!

(Although really, a friendly welcome from Macross World will probably make you persona non grata in a lot of RT circles, so instead, let me say: "GO TO HELL, ROBOTECH LOVER!"

There. That should put you back in Memo's good graces. )

[Seto Kaiba]

I happen to know why this change with his show occurred, in fact he stopped sounding like a loon ever since myself, JT and a few others started joining his podcasts. We actually managed to get him to act civil, and get into serious discussions. He even acknowledged this in one of his recent episodes, that we changed it.

It won't last... just like his pretense of civility on RobotechX.

As soon as he doesn't get his way, or someone says something he doesn't like, he flies off the handle and starts in with the name-calling, the slander, the racial and ethnic slurs... all the hallmarks of typical dougbendo behavior. Just look at how he acts on RobotechX. Whenever someone criticizes his podcast, or expresses a viewpoint that Robotech is anything other than practically perfect in every way, he immediately goes on the offensive. He tried to invite me onto that obnoxious podcast of his, and when I told him I wasn't interested because I didn't think he was capable of keeping things civil, he immediately proved me right by jumping in with the insults, telling me I was full of bullshit and didn't know anything about Robotech or Macross, and trying to goad me into it by saying I was afraid to face him.

Mark my words, this "quality" in Bendo's podcast will not last. It's a brief lull in the hurricane of stupidity brought about by people whose brains are in the right way 'round getting involved. As soon as they stop contributing, he'll be right back to badmouthing us all and shouting about how he's gonna beat his girlfriend and then piss on her.

This is insane. You and others have been lambasted by "influential" Robotech fans as closet "Macross Purists" and "Robotech Haters" (which I know you're not, because, being a Macross Purist myself, I can easily tell who is and who isn't. ), and yet...it seems like you guys are actually shaking up the Robotech fandom in a POSITIVE way.

You and I might see what they're doing as a distinct improvement in the state of Robotech's fanbase, but many Robotech fans consider these people to be trolls, malcontents, or "enemies of the fandom" because of what they have to say about Harmony Gold, Shadow Chronicles, and Robotech as a whole.

After HappyPenguins was banned by MEMO for trying to get him to do his job and stop Pizza from trolling, Steve made it no secret that he had no intention of unbanning her because her site is critical of Harmony Gold and the direction they've chosen for Robotech. It's only a matter of time before JT/Zen72 gets banned from Robotech.com and/or RobotechX on some trumped-up charge for what he's been saying on his podcast. Maverick_LSC and MEMO1DOMINION have made it abundantly clear that criticism and facts are verboten, no matter how well-intentioned.

What Khyron Prime said couldn't be accomplished through words, but other through confectionary IS NOW BEING ACCOMPLISHED...through words.

Ehhh... I wouldn't make that declaration just yet.

[Gubaba]

Ehhh... I wouldn't make that declaration just yet.

...which is why I put it in present progressive tense. It's a beginning, at least.

It's still kind of sad that these fans are smarter than the people running the show, but at least someone smart is involved in some capacity.

I dunno. It may not end up making much of a difference...Harmony Gold is going to do what Harmony Gold wants to do, and there's no clear alternative to them, but it's nice to see Robotech fans who aren't sheep, and it's nice to see that they're really beginning to ORGANIZE. And I'm sure no pies will be harmed in the process.

[Einherjar]

I don't know, I'd be cautious about doug. It sounds like a situation he's been waiting for a while to happen; where the pro-HG people, mods and/or the HG crew starts to lose support from the online fandom and then go to him as an influential alternative, if not the highest one. He's also been the only podcaster/pundit/blogger consistently pumping out new shows and talking about Robotech, meaning for a while now he's been getting almost the entire fandom's attention. Then again, the collaboration with MEMO as well as him willing to have a conversation with Robotech Master on Space Station Liberty recently caught me off guard. Anything could be happening. For now, I'd be cautious.

Also, welcome aboard Zen72.

[VFTF1]

This is simple.

There are only three possible paths that this will all take:

1. HG becoms sane, stops banning people for having opinions or liking Yamatos and Macross and instead gets to work on great merchandise and a great show and tries to EARN their fans trust and money instead of using CR law and TOU to try to twist peoples arms.

2. The fandom splits into TWO DISTINCT FRONTS:

A) Harmony Gold Fundamentalists

B) Robotech Lovers

The difference? Robotech lovers just love Robotech, they can't be assed about the legal mumbo jumbo, and they have no patience for flame wars. All they want to do is enjoy Robotech openly and without Big H sitting over their shoulder to make sure what they type is "appropriate." These people will have their own websites, their own forums, their own podcasts, their own online fanzines and rpgs and will just live in their own little world free of Harmony Gold.

Meanwhile, Harmony Gold Fundamentalists will sit on RT.com and look for people to ban.

3) More and more Robotech fans begin to interact with Macross fans whether here on MW.com or in general. Because MW.com does not ban Robotech nor does it actively flame or discourage Robotech, and because the "no Robotech" rule on MW is not a general commandment, but rather a reminder that when we discuss Hikaru Ichijo, we really want to discuss Hikaru Ichijo and not Rick Hunter, and because MW has THIS thread for people who might want to discuss Rick Hunter and there is open debate here - more and more Robotech fans will see that "Macross Purists" are not people who would necessarily BAN you for saying "I like Robotech."

See - to put it in religious terms - HG Fundies are like people whose faith commands them to beat the sh!t out of other people. Macross Purists are people whose faith commands them to love Macross and SHARE that love - not force it, not flame it, not compell it - but just share it. And in this sense, Macross Purists have no problem not just talking to RT lovers, but even going to sleep KNOWING that the RT lover...still...loves..Robotech (gasp!)

And if this third scenario takes place- you wanna know what I think will happen?

I think more and more Robotech lovers will become Macross purists.

Yep.

Not because they will be forced, not because they'll be convinced by Gubaba or me or other Macross Purists - but simply because while they hang out here and start to check out other threads, they will discover the world of the original Macross for themselves and come to love it.

That's how much I believe in the power of Macross

Macross does not need copy right laws and terms of use and C&D orders to survive.

All it needs to do is be as good as it has been - and that'll draw people in.

Harmony Gold and RT.com are sinking ships.

Even Memo will eventually be turned to Macross Purism.

It is inevitable.

Pete

Edited October 14, 2009 by VFTF1

[Save]

In the end, I do my show...I'm proud of it! and am having a great time!...I'll have my detractors of course...but that's the nature of the beast...

And "Save"....there are more pressing matters in the world than my pronunciation of Robotech.....to-may-to...to-mah-to....lol!

That is very "HG" of you. So if a fellow Robotech fan points out that you yourself are pronouncing Robotech incorrectly which is the premise of your whole show you give a HG type of response to smoke screen a mistake. Now that is funny lol!!

[Jasonc]

I don't know, I'd be cautious about doug. It sounds like a situation he's been waiting for a while to happen; where the pro-HG people, mods and/or the HG crew starts to lose support from the online fandom and then go to him as an influential alternative, if not the highest one. He's also been the only podcaster/pundit/blogger consistently pumping out new shows and talking about Robotech, meaning for a while now he's been getting almost the entire fandom's attention. Then again, the collaboration with MEMO as well as him willing to have a conversation with Robotech Master on Space Station Liberty recently caught me off guard. Anything could be happening. For now, I'd be cautious.

What's the saying, gentle as a dove, but wise as a serpent. If there's a reason for you to feel cautious, always go with your gut instinct. Perhaps I'll listen to some of Doug's new show tomorrow. Anyone got a link or is it on the same site. Also, I'll be listening to more of JT's podcast tomorrow after I drop my car off for repair (car accident on the freeway). BTW, is there any Macross specific podcast? If not, I suggest a few of us get together and start one.