Raise your hand

[edwin3060]

To consider the things that bothered me about Frontier, I felt the "Cybernetic Conspiracy" with Grace and the Macross Galaxy were underwritten. This sub plot felt like a blatant attempt to emulate the mysterious and unexplained atmosphere of anime such as Neon Genesis Evangelion. It was also a shame that the writers mishandled Alto's family problems in the latter part of the series. The tension between Alto and his family was dramatically engaging for the first half of the series, but because the sub plot was underwritten into irrelevance later in the story, it became mostly extraneous at end of the series. Probably more than anything else, these weaker sub-plots hurt the pacing and flow of the last third of the series (ironically, a somewhat similar case of weak pace and narrative flow that happened in the last third of the original SDF Macross series). Some fan service excess and the odd weak episode bothered me, but my complaints never went much beyond that. For an anime, it was certainly a strong series and the finale was nothing short of a mecha series at it's finest.

I agree with you about the "cybernetic conspiracy"-- although I'm hoping that (as with Mac7) Bandai might push for several side OVAs, one of which could more fully delve into the whole Macross Galaxy issue (as well as give us more VF-27 action!). I didn't make the link to NGE though.

I actually thought that Alto's family subplot was handled pretty consistently-- throughout the series we are reminded of the tension between his love for flying and his talent at acting-- or, as his adopted brother puts it, how he combined both into the role of a young pilot in desperate times.

Azrael: I actually watched MF all in one go because I was previously too busy and missed out! Prior to MF I had only watched Plus and Zero--- I watched Plus all in one go and Zero as it came out. Watching everything in one go probably made me feel more strongly about Plus and MF (although the weaker storyline of Zero may have affected this as well). Only after watching MF did I watch SDFM and DYRL, and I have to say, MF appeals to me more strongly than did SDFM or DYRL-- which may be an indication of my age as much as anything else. Suffice to say, like some previous posters have mentioned, you can't really say MF is better or worse than SDFM or DYRL because the order in which you watch the shows (and the age when you watch them) can affect your feelings as well.

[Noyhauser]

I'm among those who are a bit skeptical of Macross Frontier. I think it was a glitzy well produced Macross animation, with a decent story; its love story was credible, pacing was good and storytelling was well done. If this was the first or second introduction into Macross, then yes it was a good production and deserves the audience it received. Yet its not for me. I was raised up on Macross in Japan and have been a constant fan since. I'm starting to get tired of the formula which the Macross stories are using, which is starting to remind me a bit of Gundam franchise. Obviously the stories aren't complete ripoffs (like alot of Gundam AU stuff), but it is recycling the similar themes and frankly its getting boring. Music matters, and there is a love triangle, I get it. Yet I find the themes not a very good vehicle for probing human experiences and I think its reached its limit with Macross Frontier. In reality I think its somewhat lazy and illustrates that the series is more concerned about being attractive and marketable than thought provoking and interesting.

If true, this is unfortunate. There are some great, successful japanese animations which probe deep issues surrounding war; Flag, Hotaru no Haka and Legend of Galactic Heroes to name three. There are now two Yoshiki Tanaka works animated, Legends and Tytania which have similar feels but very different settings and themes. Its broken the formulaic mold. I can't see why Kawamori & Co. can't use the Macross universe to tell somewhat different type of stories, without relying on similar formulas each time. I don't know how many of you have read the classic novel The Hunters by James Salter, but I see that as a perfect story adaptation for Macross. (and an absolutely fantastic novel too.)

I think it worries me that a series that once tried to make real effort to break the mold of animation has started to stagnate under its own flat inheritance. Macross Frontier was just an example of that.

Edited March 23, 2009 by Noyhauser

[Zinjo]

And here's a question I'm going to throw at everyone else. Let's say we didn't watch this series on a week-by-week basis. Let's say someone gave us or let us borrow the "entire season DVD set" and we watched it all at once. Would that have any impact on how you would view the series? Just like if someone gave you an entire season of Battlestar Galactica (either the original or RDM's re-image), or Firefly, or Star Trek. Would watching it in bulk affect how you view the series as opposed to watching it on a week-by-week basis? Would you be harsher or feel less hype?

I think it would actually.

When you can see a series in its entire context within a short span of time, it would affect your final opinion, since any expectations would have only minutes to build rather than days.

There would be no 50 page debate on MW over the WTF-1 (although it was fun ) since the answer would be a mere minutes away.

In one sense, I suspect the complaints would be based more on the actual content and production values rather than emotions surrounding the show itself.

If true, this is unfortunate. There are some great, successful japanese animations which probe deep issues surrounding war; Flag, Hotaru no Haka and Legend of Galactic Heroes to name three. There are now two Yoshiki Tanaka works animated, Legends and Tytania which have similar feels but very different settings and themes. Its broken the formulaic mold. I can't see why Kawamori & Co. can't use the Macross universe to tell somewhat different type of stories, without relying on similar formulas each time. I don't know how many of you have read the classic novel The Hunters by James Salter, but I see that as a perfect story adaptation for Macross. (and an absolutely fantastic novel too.)

I think it worries me that a series that once tried to make real effort to break the mold of animation has started to stagnate under its own flat inheritance. Macross Frontier was just an example of that.

I have to agree that with such a wide universe in Macross and the depth that Kawamori and co. have put into its history that non-formula side stories are needed. However, until a side story can prove to be very successful BigWest would be hard pressed to find a sponsor like Bandai to pay for a whole series.

I think that OVA's are where such stories could find their voice. Another avenue is to market such side stories as shows for a more mature audience to try to reign in an older demographic. Unfortunately Kawamori seems to use Macross to pay the bills and his other visions are relegated outside the franchise.

This could be due to pressure by BW to continue with the formula or he simply doesn't have any interest in telling those stories within the franchise.

Edited March 23, 2009 by Zinjo

[Mr March]

I'm among those who are a bit skeptical of Macross Frontier. I think it was a glitzy well produced Macross animation, with a decent story; its love story was credible, pacing was good and storytelling was well done.

I think it worries me that a series that once tried to make real effort to break the mold of animation has started to stagnate under its own flat inheritance. Macross Frontier was just an example of that.

Macross Frontier is just Macross done well, but no more than that. The story of Macross Frontier is not innovative or groundbreaking or provocative and it wasn't meant to be. It's simply entertaining for the sake of entertainment. It's Macross, for the sake of Macross, but nothing more. Like I've said before, Macross Frontier is the Iron Man of it's time, not The Dark Knight. Expecting Macross Frontier to be Flag is like wanting Gundam to be Evangelion.

But I will say this much about the whole debate surrounding the Macross franchise; it's a source of interest to me reading between the lines for the real reasons behind fan opinion of the series. It has been a learning experience going through the entire "fan process" of a modern anime series, from pre-release, to broadcast, to the aftermath. Living this last year alongside Macross Frontier, it's fascinating how so many people have vastly different reasons and expecations for Macross and for liking/disliking Macross Frontier (or the rest of the franchise). Especially here on MW, you get a front row seat to the need people have to discuss their tastes and why. I've never done that before with an anime series and it's turned out quite enlightening, much more so than just being a part of an existing fandom discussing topics long after the fact.

Edited March 23, 2009 by Mr March

[MisaForever]

Macross Frontier is just Macross done well, but no more than that. The story of Macross Frontier is not innovative or groundbreaking or provocative and it wasn't meant to be. It's simply entertaining for the sake of entertainment. It's Macross, for the sake of Macross, but nothing more. Like I've said before, Macross Frontier is the Iron Man of it's time, not The Dark Knight. Expecting Macross Frontier to be Flag is like wanting Gundam to be Evangelion.

But I will say this much about the whole debate surrounding the Macross franchise; it's a source of interest to me reading between the lines for the real reasons behind fan opinion of the series. It has been a learning experience going through the entire "fan process" of a modern anime series, from pre-release, to broadcast, to the aftermath. Living this last year alongside Macross Frontier, it's fascinating how so many people have vastly different reasons and expecations for Macross and for liking/disliking Macross Frontier (or the rest of the franchise). Especially here on MW, you get a front row seat to the need people have to discuss their tastes and why. I've never done that before with an anime series and it's turned out quite enlightening, much more so than just being a part of an existing fandom discussing topics long after the fact.

THIS for me as well. This is the first series I have EVER followed with fans like this and so it's been very interesting. Though, as with anything, I will never comprehend why fans get so darn angry. I never ever pick things apart like most fans do and will never see the point of it. But that's me and I'll just accept that I don't stress out as much as some.

[Roy Focker]

I'm not really a fan of anime. I enjoy a few shows, like the anime style of art but majority of stuff doesn't do it for me. I came into Macross F with no big expectations. Macross 7 and Macross Zero came before. You gotta have an open mind. I least wanted a good story. Yes it was there but it was buried under so much filler. Not sure if they even knew what direction they were going. If you want hot and current stuff. It is all there. I use the words "hot" and "current" as what is hot and current in Anime only. Not sure of Frontier's lasting value or ability to cross over to gain fans outside of Anime fans.

[REbirth]

I re-watched the first few episodes as they aired a couple of times to pick out the details, but after a while I lost interest, so I have seen the whole show, but just once, on a crappy small-screen TV with a cheap VHS recording. I'm not in a hurry to watch it again.

Eh, I think you should wait till the BD releases are completed, buy them and watch it again, Renato, because no matter how you say it, viewing Frontier on a crappy small screen TV is really a boner killer.

[Gubaba]

Eh, I think you should wait till the BD releases are completed, buy them and watch it again, Renato, because no matter how you say it, viewing Frontier on a crappy small screen TV is really a boner killer.

I dunno. Some people just didn't like the show, and no amount of high-definition mecha porn will change that. Besides, saying to someone, "You didn't like the show? Then spend ¥66,150 and I think you'll like it," is kind of...cruel, maybe?

[REbirth]

I dunno. Some people just didn't like the show, and no amount of high-definition mecha porn will change that. Besides, saying to someone, "You didn't like the show? Then spend ¥66,150 and I think you'll like it," is kind of...cruel, maybe?

I understand, but damn, I do give a damn about hi-def mecha pr0n (considering that's the only stuff that kept me watching Gundam 0083 till the end, the cast is sooo boring, it hurts), so yeah, I say he should give it a rewatch, maybe this time he will appreciate it more (and be able to relate to some characters who he found to be uninteresting in his first viewing).

I'm going to rewatch Frontier as soon as the BD releases are completed too, since next season has only like 2, 3 news shows I really care about.

[Bri]

If there is one thing I that is wrong with Macross Frontier is that it is too short. I think the series would have been better if it had 50 episodes instead of 26. The side characters had a lot of potential but never got the time to develop. The main triangle used up most of the avaiable time and even that felt rushed at times.

Anime has changed a lot since the 80s when SDFM was created. Evangelion changed anime, not only story wise but also its format. Night time anime is the norm now. Internet forums give instant fan feedback. Frontier is a product of it's time, it aims to please a mature hardcore anime audience without going in to Japanese culture or demographics. Fanservice, cliches, self mockery and insider jokes are more common as writers know their target audience will get the intent and references. If you write for audults you no longer need to behave grown up, you can just indulge in those old childhood fantasies and joke around with them.

Still, it is possible to get a SDFM quality series out. If there has been any series that managed to recapture the feelings I had when watching SDF Macross it would be Eureka 7. In many ways it is the true spritual succesor to SDFM.

[REbirth]

Still, it is possible to get a SDFM quality series out. If there has been any series that managed to recapture the feelings I had when watching SDF Macross it would be Eureka 7. In many ways it is the true spritual succesor to SDFM.

No argument on this, considering E7's lovely theme, awesome music, an interesting cast of characters (not so good villain though, seriously, Dewey is just some loser I don't really care about) and last but not least, great mecha action (Nivrash, how I love thy, you too, Devilfish).

But come to think of it, I wonder if any Macross past-SDFM are really successors to Macross. Macross Plus, Macross 7, Macross Zero and Macross Frontier are so different compared the original to the point that I think they will work even without the title "Macross".

Oh well, there's still stuff that isn't Macross, but feel so Macross-y (variable mechs, nice music, love theme) like Megazone 23, Genesis of Aquarion, E7 ...

[Zinjo]

If there is one thing I that is wrong with Macross Frontier is that it is too short. I think the series would have been better if it had 50 episodes instead of 26. The side characters had a lot of potential but never got the time to develop. The main triangle used up most of the avaiable time and even that felt rushed at times.

That is the true irony of this series. It's predecessor M7 was too long for the content it actually had, while Frontier was too short for the same reasons...

Still, it is possible to get a SDFM quality series out. If there has been any series that managed to recapture the feelings I had when watching SDF Macross it would be Eureka 7. In many ways it is the true spritual succesor to SDFM.

I have to agree regarding E7. At first it was like, "WTF!! Surfing mecha???!", but that is so NOT what the story is about!

[bishopcruz]

Yeah, Frontier needed an aftermath arc in my opinion. Part of what made the original series so damn great was its coda episodes, the whole idea that life went on even after the major battle was amazing. Not to mention those episodes had the best character development of the entire series.

With about 9-13 more episodes, focused on character development, the series could have moved from good to great.

[taksraven]

Yeah, Frontier needed an aftermath arc in my opinion. Part of what made the original series so damn great was its coda episodes, the whole idea that life went on even after the major battle was amazing. Not to mention those episodes had the best character development of the entire series.

With about 9-13 more episodes, focused on character development, the series could have moved from good to great.

I've always been pretty meh about the aftermath episodes. Only a few were good and they were nearly all animated really substandard.

I doubt that you would see such a coda in a modern series.

Taksraven

[bishopcruz]

I've always been pretty meh about the aftermath episodes. Only a few were good and they were nearly all animated really substandard.

I doubt that you would see such a coda in a modern series.

Taksraven

I can't disagree more, I think the Coda episodes are what elevated Macross from a great anime series, into an all time classic. Macross would have not been anywhere near as satisfying without them. Love Drifts Away leaves us with a surviving Macross, but the rest of the world completely destroyed, a still unresolved triangle, and a lot of questions.

The final nine episodes not only allowed for a change of pace from the more or less frentic first 27, they gave the characters time to breathe, allowed THEM to take the spotlight over the action. Yeah, the animation wasn't the best, but maybe we've been watching different series because let's be honest, the animation quality in SDF could be amazing, but most of the time it struggled to be passable, and was never consistent.

You are right in not seeing codas in a series today, hell, most time's we're lucky if we even get a good ending for crying out loud, or an ending at all. That doesn't mean that many of these show's don't suffer for the lack of them. Frontier suffered from it's lack of resolution, it's still one of the things that sticks in my craw about the show. I loved it a lot of the time. But the ending wasn't what it could have been, or rather should have been.

[edwin3060]

I think the lack of a 'coda' as you call it, is probably because producers/directors/scriptwriters assume people will be bored after the climax of the film or tv series, and won't bother with the aftermath. It also allows the audience to imagine their own happily ever after endings.

[sidearmsalpha]

To make this clear I don't hate Macross F with all of my heart. I just don't love it with all of my loins. I've watched it all the way through. I just haven't had the desire to re-watch it or run out and buy Macross F related merchandise. I know I can't be alone.

Name your fetish. Macross F delivers. There's the adolescent sex objects. Nothing new in anime or Macross. When I look back at Macross Past, not all the babes of Macross were adults. They were Britney Spears level jail bait. With Macross F you got a few Dakota Fanning characters. You can't claim she said she was 18 with the Macross F characters. No one would believe you. There is also the Alto & Micheal stuff. Official and non official art work that show cases some of the fetishes. Seems to be more Macross Fan art and cosplay then then was of the other stuff.

Macross F nods to former Macross series but I see it as just catering to modern anime taste. It caters to the lowest common denominator. I didn't care much about Macross Zero after it ended. At least with Macross Zero Kawamori seemed to have did what he wanted. Macross F it seemed they took at look at what popular, did that and then try to cover every type of fan service possible. I do see a good story in Macross F but there's just so much fan service or pointless filler. I haven't been keeping up on Macross F news. Like that Movie. Is it suppose to be a condensed version? Macross F could benefit from being a shorter movie form. I don't think Macross F is the anti-christ I'm just not a fan. It sucks because Macross F is so popular. I want Macross to continue but I want it to be "Macross" not just "what's popular now' with Valkyries.

I lump Macross F along with Macross 7 - only watchable for the mech action. I found the characters annoying and uninteresting. The idol music isn't my cup of tea either. I guess I'm too old school, but the original series and movie were tops with Macross Plus and Zero being top notch also.

[Roy Focker]

The other day I was playing around doing screen grabs. Went to my Macross Frontier fold. Did a semi fast-forward of the last episode. On its own it is good episode. Does kinda have that Macross feel. There are good episodes (not all just the heavy mecha action) but I think Frontier could be trimmed to just 3 hours to tell a better story.

[Noyhauser]

I can't disagree more, I think the Coda episodes are what elevated Macross from a great anime series, into an all time classic. Macross would have not been anywhere near as satisfying without them. Love Drifts Away leaves us with a surviving Macross, but the rest of the world completely destroyed, a still unresolved triangle, and a lot of questions.

The final nine episodes not only allowed for a change of pace from the more or less frentic first 27, they gave the characters time to breathe, allowed THEM to take the spotlight over the action. Yeah, the animation wasn't the best, but maybe we've been watching different series because let's be honest, the animation quality in SDF could be amazing, but most of the time it struggled to be passable, and was never consistent.

You are right in not seeing codas in a series today, hell, most time's we're lucky if we even get a good ending for crying out loud, or an ending at all. That doesn't mean that many of these show's don't suffer for the lack of them. Frontier suffered from it's lack of resolution, it's still one of the things that sticks in my craw about the show. I loved it a lot of the time. But the ending wasn't what it could have been, or rather should have been.

I couldn't agree with you more. To me the Vajira were basically dumbed down versions of the Zentredi, playing almost the same role with none of its gravitas. Really Grace was a stand-in for Boldoza as the evil behind the curtain controlling the Vajira/Zentredi. The latter aren't evil themselves, just misunderstood and need to be reached by the power of culture or music. Yet what made SDF a great series was to show the aftermath of the final battle and the struggle of the zentredi (and humans) to pick up the pieces of their lives. Yeah its great that culture can save people and be a force for good, but war destroys lives and causes pain which must be healed. Transition is never easy, which SDF emphasizes at the end with the city ablaze, the Macross destroyed and Misa and Hikaru holding each other looking with hope for the future despite the huge challenges ahead of them. The ending of Frontier had this implausible fairy tale ending where the Vajira leave and people quickly rebuild their lives happily on this new planet. With the exception of the pro-forma acknowledgment of Mikhail's death and Klans loss, its a happy ending with green fields, blue skies and puffy white clouds.

In my mind it illustrates just how shallow Frontier was compared to SDF and why the series has started to stagnate over the years. I don't see it as others as a "refined macross" because it contains none of the depth of the original series. Its a simplistic macross which relies on a lot of amazing visuals to keep people interested.

Edited March 29, 2009 by Noyhauser

[Cyclone Trooper]

...its a simplistic macross which relies on a lot of amazing visuals to keep people interested.

Well...statistically, there ARE more and more people growing up with ADD and ADHD than ever before, and subsequently, our worldwide society is developing into a kind of "microwave mentality" where everything has to be instant, interesting, short, and shallow for it to hold the interest of the vast majority of younger people for any given length of time. I have several nieces and nephews who fall into this category, so I speak from my experiences of being around them when I say this. Bright and flashy visuals coupled with ear-splitting audio will hold their attention for maybe up to 2 minutes...then they lose interest to the point of wandering off to find something else to do for about 5 minutes.

Not trying to offend anyone who has ADD/ADHD, I'm just trying to give a possible answer to your line of reasoning...

Macross F, just like Roy's been saying, is simply a product of its current environment...

Edited March 30, 2009 by Cyclone Trooper

[dreamweaver13]

I couldn't agree with you more. To me the Vajira were basically dumbed down versions of the Zentredi, playing almost the same role with none of its gravitas. Really Grace was a stand-in for Boldoza as the evil behind the curtain controlling the Vajira/Zentredi. The latter aren't evil themselves, just misunderstood and need to be reached by the power of culture or music. Yet what made SDF a great series was to show the aftermath of the final battle and the struggle of the zentredi (and humans) to pick up the pieces of their lives. Yeah its great that culture can save people and be a force for good, but war destroys lives and causes pain which must be healed. Transition is never easy, which SDF emphasizes at the end with the city ablaze, the Macross destroyed and Misa and Hikaru holding each other looking with hope for the future despite the huge challenges ahead of them. The ending of Frontier had this implausible fairy tale ending where the Vajira leave and people quickly rebuild their lives happily on this new planet. With the exception of the pro-forma acknowledgment of Mikhail's death and Klans loss, its a happy ending with green fields, blue skies and puffy white clouds.

In my mind it illustrates just how shallow Frontier was compared to SDF and why the series has started to stagnate over the years. I don't see it as others as a "refined macross" because it contains none of the depth of the original series. Its a simplistic macross which relies on a lot of amazing visuals to keep people interested.

I agree completely that the aftermath episodes made SDFM much much better, but i can't see how extending MF to show an aftermath could make the series better.

To my mind, the "big picture" theme of MF extended to understanding that the Vajra, no matter how alien-looking, could be intelligent creatures capable of communication. with ranka's explanation in episode 25, i think that settled the issue.

SDFM, however, was much more. Love triangle aside, there was the issue of how the war-like culture of the zentraedi could be integrated into human civilization. How two species could co-exist. in fact, how two species could inter-breed and reproduce, for that matter, and further discussion on their common ancestors, the protoculture. There is also the issue of the formation of a new government after the near annhilation of bodolza's attack, the re-development of earth's eco-system, and how the government would deal with remaining zentraedi malcontents. in my opinion, these are directly related with the SDF-1's victory in SW1, and rightfully formed the basis of a continuation of the series. in other words, to me, the jump from A to B was seemless, and B was relevant to A.

On the other hand, what more could MF dwell on? Co-existence isn't really an issue, since the vajra are too different anyway. you won't see a household with one human and one vajra.. most likely, even if the vajra stay on the planet, any interaction between the humans and the vajra wouldn't make for much comedy or drama stories. surely, there is no human-vajra breeding issues to speak of. new government does't have to be formed, coz there's already one in place. and humans won't have to deal with vajra malcontents, because as long as the queen as humans are on good terms with the queen, then everyone is happy. Sure, there are stories there somewhere (i.e. development of new fold technology, discovery of the link between vajra and protoculture, incarceration of leon, search for the Galaxy fleet), but in my mind, they're not necessarily linked with the theme and storyline of MF. They are good stories, but they could as easily be made as the subjects of a movie, or a new series. in other words, it doesn't have to be Alto, Sheryl, ranka and the gang who has to deal with these things.

Hey, i'm not saying that there shouldn't be any more MF. hell, i'd be the first to line up for anything new to do with MF, be it a movie, OAV, manga, or a new series. all i'm saying is that MF would not necessarily be a better series if it were extended another 10 or so episodes.

[Gubaba]

Well...statistically, there ARE more and more people growing up with ADD and ADHD than ever before, and subsequently, our worldwide society is developing into a kind of "microwave mentality" where everything has to be instant, interesting, short, and shallow for it to hold the interest of the vast majority of younger people for any given length of time. I have several nieces and nephews who fall into this category, so I speak from my experiences of being around them when I say this. Bright and flashy visuals coupled with ear-splitting audio will hold their attention for maybe up to 2 minutes...then they lose interest to the point of wandering off to find something else to do for about 5 minutes.

Macross F, just like Roy's been saying, is simply a product of its current environment...

Yeah, because NO ONE watched cartoons for bright and flashy visuals back in the '80s! Everything was like "My Dinner With Andre" on slo-mo.

[Cyclone Trooper]

Yeah, because NO ONE watched cartoons for bright and flashy visuals back in the '80s! Everything was like "My Dinner With Andre" on slo-mo.

LOL...okay, point taken!

[Agent ONE]

*Yawn*

If I didn't add that someone would have asked, "so you like 7 now!?!?"

[taksraven]

I couldn't agree with you more. To me the Vajira were basically dumbed down versions of the Zentredi, playing almost the same role with none of its gravitas. Really Grace was a stand-in for Boldoza as the evil behind the curtain controlling the Vajira/Zentredi. The latter aren't evil themselves, just misunderstood and need to be reached by the power of culture or music. Yet what made SDF a great series was to show the aftermath of the final battle and the struggle of the zentredi (and humans) to pick up the pieces of their lives. Yeah its great that culture can save people and be a force for good, but war destroys lives and causes pain which must be healed. Transition is never easy, which SDF emphasizes at the end with the city ablaze, the Macross destroyed and Misa and Hikaru holding each other looking with hope for the future despite the huge challenges ahead of them. The ending of Frontier had this implausible fairy tale ending where the Vajira leave and people quickly rebuild their lives happily on this new planet. With the exception of the pro-forma acknowledgment of Mikhail's death and Klans loss, its a happy ending with green fields, blue skies and puffy white clouds.

I really enjoyed the mystery of the Vajra at the start of the series, but I think that as the series progressed that they did need a more humanoid and communicative presence. The whole "enemy within" thing with Grace was fine but I found it hard to get any sort of emotional attachment to the Vajra themselves. (I didn't like Aikun)

There were a few points during the series when a few of us thought that it was going to be revealed that the Vajra were a biomechanical organism with a possibly humanoid pilot but that never came to pass, unfortunately.

[taksraven]

If I didn't add that someone would have asked, "so you like 7 now!?!?"

Only silly people.

[bishopcruz]

I really enjoyed the mystery of the Vajra at the start of the series, but I think that as the series progressed that they did need a more humanoid and communicative presence. The whole "enemy within" thing with Grace was fine but I found it hard to get any sort of emotional attachment to the Vajra themselves. (I didn't like Aikun)

There were a few points during the series when a few of us thought that it was going to be revealed that the Vajra were a biomechanical organism with a possibly humanoid pilot but that never came to pass, unfortunately.

It's really hard to get attached to bugs. I mean they simply are. With no consciousness that we can see it just becomes an animal entity without personality. I really began disliking the Vajra around the time they became the borg, y'know adapting to be able to survive a nuke in the face. But maybe that's just me.

Wierd bug races CAN be done well, see the Zerg from Starcraft, but without SOME sense of connection it's pretty hard to make them a sympathetic misunderstood or redeemable villain.

Another quick point on the ending:

Upon rewatching another reason I think that the story NEEDS to continue is the fact that there is practically no closure at all to the whole Galaxy plot thread. We know Battle Galaxy was destroyed, but we know nothing about the rest of the fleet. Grace is likely still alive along with the rest of her Cylon buddies, especially if they had direct access to pretty much the whole galaxy. What happened to all the voices in her head? The galaxy domination plot couldn't have just ended here with this battle.

Not to mention I NEVER understood Grace's hate lines. Ever. Did she hate the Vajra? Did she hate regular humans? Did she hate everyone? And why? What reason did she have for that much hatred. I can get hating the Vajra, but wanting to see humanity enslaved and mindless seemed kinda odd.

This ending felt more akin to a season finale than a series one.

[Killer Robot]

I agree completely that the aftermath episodes made SDFM much much better, but i can't see how extending MF to show an aftermath could make the series better.

To my mind, the "big picture" theme of MF extended to understanding that the Vajra, no matter how alien-looking, could be intelligent creatures capable of communication. with ranka's explanation in episode 25, i think that settled the issue.

I think these are key points, on both counts. There's certainly a lot to be seen in the aftermath of this with the people of Frontier settling a new and alien world with the battered remnants of their fleet, the followup on the Galaxy conspiracy, etc. - on the other hand, while that's neat sci-fi and some extra story closure, it doesn't strike me as a Macross story or SK's style: it doesn't have anything like the Zentradi integration/rebellion issue in SDFM, or the laying down of the whole background of the Protoculture and the human expansion into the galaxy. Even the love triangle part needs less attention: the love triangle in SDFM was relatively backgrounded through the first part of the series and only was deeply explored postwar, wheras Frontier had it key through much of the series. I'm also one of the people that thought in Frontier the end decision was meaningfully unimportant: the big question in the love triangle was really about whether the three could all be alive and friends at the end, and that happened.

The Vajra, it's a simple thing: the series went and addressed the idea of aliens which were actually aliens rather than yet another Protoculture-designed cousin to humanity from elsewhere in the galaxy. Not that those are bad, but after SDFM, Macross II, and Macross 7 it's pretty well-mined territory, and so an encounter with the truly alien, exploited by the evil and warlike factions among humanity, gave an interesting new take.

I couldn't agree with you more. To me the Vajira were basically dumbed down versions of the Zentredi, playing almost the same role with none of its gravitas. Really Grace was a stand-in for Boldoza as the evil behind the curtain controlling the Vajira/Zentredi. The latter aren't evil themselves, just misunderstood and need to be reached by the power of culture or music. Yet what made SDF a great series was to show the aftermath of the final battle and the struggle of the zentredi (and humans) to pick up the pieces of their lives. Yeah its great that culture can save people and be a force for good, but war destroys lives and causes pain which must be healed. Transition is never easy, which SDF emphasizes at the end with the city ablaze, the Macross destroyed and Misa and Hikaru holding each other looking with hope for the future despite the huge challenges ahead of them. The ending of Frontier had this implausible fairy tale ending where the Vajira leave and people quickly rebuild their lives happily on this new planet. With the exception of the pro-forma acknowledgment of Mikhail's death and Klans loss, its a happy ending with green fields, blue skies and puffy white clouds.

In my mind it illustrates just how shallow Frontier was compared to SDF and why the series has started to stagnate over the years. I don't see it as others as a "refined macross" because it contains none of the depth of the original series. Its a simplistic macross which relies on a lot of amazing visuals to keep people interested.

"Implausible fairy tale ending" paints a rather different image than I recall seeing in Frontier, is the issue. It's not like those green fields, blue skies, and puffy white clouds came from nowhere. It's not like after a big final battle in deep space the fleet made one more fold and arrived over a planet they hadn't seen before; it's not like the planet had taken apparently a huge pounding but when they came down and the smoke cleared it was all bright and sunny day again. Instead, it's the planet Leon had decided to invade because of the green fields and blue skies, and it only wasn't going to work because Grace was playing him as well as the heroes. When the battered and desperate fleet finally lands, the only twists are that it wasn't Leon in charge, that the greater trick was exposed, and that they were able to stop the villains by making contact with the "enemy" rather than destroying them. The planet was there and expected: it was all about getting there without everyone dying. Sure, there was a big, "yay, we're alive!" moment like nothing would ever go wrong again, but it was more like the first(episode 27) ending of SDFM that it referenced: the enormous battle is over, the overwhelming odds overcome; the hero has come to ground and saved the girl and....look, there's the Macross coming down to land, battered but shockingly mostly intact: all the characters we knew and cared about, save a couple cameos and those who died a half dozen episodes ago, are okay. Sure, the Earth was bombed out, but in Frontier the fleet took a lot of damage and casualties throughout: the Vajra planet would have made little sense to attack.

As for "a simplistic Macross which relies on a lot of amazing visuals to keep people interested," they made that already. It was called "Do You Remember Love?" and people by and large really liked it. I liked it too, but I appreciate that Frontier had more meat to it thanks to the longer format.

[Gaijin]

I liked Frontier better than Zero.

[bishopcruz]

I think these are key points, on both counts. There's certainly a lot to be seen in the aftermath of this with the people of Frontier settling a new and alien world with the battered remnants of their fleet, the followup on the Galaxy conspiracy, etc. - on the other hand, while that's neat sci-fi and some extra story closure, it doesn't strike me as a Macross story or SK's style: it doesn't have anything like the Zentradi integration/rebellion issue in SDFM, or the laying down of the whole background of the Protoculture and the human expansion into the galaxy.

But there are character and plot things left to mine, much in the same way SDFM did. You could say much the same thing you're saying about Frontier at the end of episode 27 of SDFM. Humanity had survived, they had made peace with the Zentradi, the earth was bettered, but everyone was alive, and Ichijo was in good with both of his love interests. It COULD have ended there, and been just as resolved, if not more so, than Frontier was. The fact that it didn't is what elevated the show. SK wanted it to have ended at 27. I'm thankful he didn't get his way.

Even the love triangle part needs less attention: the love triangle in SDFM was relatively backgrounded through the first part of the series and only was deeply explored postwar, wheras Frontier had it key through much of the series. I'm also one of the people that thought in Frontier the end decision was meaningfully unimportant: the big question in the love triangle was really about whether the three could all be alive and friends at the end, and that happened.

The reason people are generally dissatisfied with the lack of resolution to the triangle is mainly because it was focused on so very damn much in the Frontier. For better or worse (and often both), the main storyline about the Vajra and Grace was pretty much a backdrop for the space opera to play out. By not finishing it off, it leaves the main plot thread of the series pretty much hanging. I'd also disagree about the big question about the love triangle. Who would live and die was important, but I never particularly felt that the friendship of Sheryl or Ranka was ever at risk.

I mean it seems silly that in SDFM where the LT didn't get as much time as it did in Frontier we got more resolution. I mean really. More time was spent on relationships in this series than any other Macross, and there were still a lot of threads left hanging. Not only with the main cast, but with others as well.

The Vajra, it's a simple thing: the series went and addressed the idea of aliens which were actually aliens rather than yet another Protoculture-designed cousin to humanity from elsewhere in the galaxy. Not that those are bad, but after SDFM, Macross II, and Macross 7 it's pretty well-mined territory, and so an encounter with the truly alien, exploited by the evil and warlike factions among humanity, gave an interesting new take.

New take for Macross I suppose, but a rather boring one. Also implausible in execution, and devoid of personality. Grace and the galaxy tried to fill the whole 'evil' role, but they were also poorly defined.

As I'm rewatching this series with my roommate I'm again reminded of the highs and lows of the series. The highs are absolutely fantastic, and there are less and less lows as the series continues. Even the final episode was great, but it needed a better send off for the characters that we have spent so much time with. Hell, one more episode that decided to take the time to cap things off would have been preferable.

I guess it's still kinda infuriating that a show that has some of the best directed scenes I have seen in a long time, and both truly amazing, as well as heart-wrenching moments faltered as it did in so many other key areas. The lack of resolution to multiple threads being the main one. Asking questions and then refusing to provide adequate answers is just lazy storytelling.

It kinda reminds me of BSG, while there are parts of this show I will love forever, the last bits of it kinda taint the rest of the show.

[dreamweaver13]

But there are character and plot things left to mine, much in the same way SDFM did. You could say much the same thing you're saying about Frontier at the end of episode 27 of SDFM. Humanity had survived, they had made peace with the Zentradi, the earth was bettered, but everyone was alive, and Ichijo was in good with both of his love interests. It COULD have ended there, and been just as resolved, if not more so, than Frontier was. The fact that it didn't is what elevated the show. SK wanted it to have ended at 27. I'm thankful he didn't get his way.

The reason people are generally dissatisfied with the lack of resolution to the triangle is mainly because it was focused on so very damn much in the Frontier. For better or worse (and often both), the main storyline about the Vajra and Grace was pretty much a backdrop for the space opera to play out. By not finishing it off, it leaves the main plot thread of the series pretty much hanging. I'd also disagree about the big question about the love triangle. Who would live and die was important, but I never particularly felt that the friendship of Sheryl or Ranka was ever at risk.

I mean it seems silly that in SDFM where the LT didn't get as much time as it did in Frontier we got more resolution. I mean really. More time was spent on relationships in this series than any other Macross, and there were still a lot of threads left hanging. Not only with the main cast, but with others as well.

I understand the desire for a definitive "resolution" to the love triangle, but really, how can you extend that into another 5 to 10 episodes worth of story? I think Killerrobot's point is that because the triangle was given too much exposure in the series itself (as you said as well), what more can you do, without having it feel like it was dragged on? and since sheryl and ranka have become too close friends (definitely more close than Misa and Minmay ever were), any attempt to lengthen the love story between these three might end up either being too comedic or too melodramatic. think Kimagure Orange Road.

but that's just me. i've learned to accept the ending of MF. but maybe it's just because as a sheryl fan, i'm pretty much of the belief that alto had already chosen sheryl (by episode 24), and ranka just doesn't know enough to give up. hehe.

[Killer Robot]

I understand the desire for a definitive "resolution" to the love triangle, but really, how can you extend that into another 5 to 10 episodes worth of story? I think Killerrobot's point is that because the triangle was given too much exposure in the series itself (as you said as well), what more can you do, without having it feel like it was dragged on? and since sheryl and ranka have become too close friends (definitely more close than Misa and Minmay ever were), any attempt to lengthen the love story between these three might end up either being too comedic or too melodramatic. think Kimagure Orange Road.

but that's just me. i've learned to accept the ending of MF. but maybe it's just because as a sheryl fan, i'm pretty much of the belief that alto had already chosen sheryl (by episode 24), and ranka just doesn't know enough to give up. hehe.

That's exactly what I meant. Episode 7 of SDFM left huge amounts to address: an assimilated alien population still learning human culture, a devastated Earth to rebuild, the question of who the Protoculture was and what happened to them, and the enormous question of what humanity should do after such a world-altering event of first alien contact. Next to that, Frontier is neatly sewn up given the best questions people have are "where exactly are the Galaxy survivors outside of those on Battle Galaxy itself?" and "who does Alto eventually end up with?"

Oddly, SDFM had Hikaru make a clear choice for the 27 ending, but then took it back so as to address the love triangle in more depth. I agree, the postwar arc was important, vital in fact to what Macross eventually became: just taking the first 27 episodes there was very little setup for future series, a lot less thought on the future of humanity, and the love triangle probably would have been swiftly forgotten by the fans since really it found its real spotlight in the last nine episodes. It definitely made SDFM a different and standout series, but it's a hard thing to replicate in a sequel: first contact with an alien race only happens once, it's hard to think of a change as big as humanity's decision to aggressively colonize space, and so on. The love triangle is something that could have been handled in the first part of the series if the writers had given it more priority, though, and that's exactly what happened in Frontier.

Relatedly, KOR really is a good comparison for the type of situation both in terms of the type of relationship and its importance through the series. It's a sharp contrast to SDFM where Misa and Minmay scarcely ever met each other much less had their own friendship, and really I'd say it's more like a sex-reversed take of the Macross Plus triangle before the horrible turn that drove the three apart. While I could have seen, for example, an ending where Ranka came back and realized she'd wanted Alto as a friend and supporter rather than a lover, but there just wasn't a feel to me that Alto should sensibly just come up and deciding there was a right girl for him and a wrong girl like Hikaru did.

[bishopcruz]

I still say that the Ep. 27 of SDFM felt much more resolved than the last episode of Frontier. Just rewatched it actually, and it doesn't really leave things hanging near as much as say the RT version (which for a myriad of reasons is still the version i immediately think of when I remember the ep in my head.)

Frontier has the following to resolve:

The LT

Grace and the Galaxy

Dealing with the Vajra on their planet.

The next steps with fold quartz.

Leon.

Alto and his family.

and quite a few more minor things.

We still have yet to see how exactly a colonization actually happens, and with the new abundance of fold quartz that the Frontier fleet now has in their possession, humanity is on the cusp of being able to do exploration on a level that the SDFM crew could only have dreamed of. There is more than enough meat for a second season.

Hell, even a coda episode would have helped immensely, Tylor's final couple of episodes are a great example of what I'm talking about, or hell the last episode of Tenchi Muyo! TV would work as well.

Oh and one last thing:

any attempt to lengthen the love story between these three might end up either being too comedic or too melodramatic. think Kimagure Orange Road.

You can disagree with me about Frontier all you want. But badmouth KOR, and we'll have words. Stern, stern, words.

Ok, I lied, another last point:

If most of the above issues had been dealt with during the series proper, than I'd probably be less annoyed at the lack of a coda. But as awesome of an episode as 25 was, with everything that was left hanging, it doesn't feel complete, it doesn't bother finishing off its main threads, and it just leaves me (and many others) feeling unsatisfied.

For me Macross has always been less about the battles and more about the aftermath. Macross F's ending couldn't be arsed to care about it.

Edited March 31, 2009 by bishopcruz

[Gubaba]

I still say that the Ep. 27 of SDFM felt much more resolved than the last episode of Frontier. Just rewatched it actually, and it doesn't really leave things hanging near as much as say the RT version (which for a myriad of reasons is still the version i immediately think of when I remember the ep in my head.)

Frontier has the following to resolve:

The LT

Grace and the Galaxy

Dealing with the Vajra on their planet.

The next steps with fold quartz.

Leon.

Alto and his family.

and quite a few more minor things.

We still have yet to see how exactly a colonization actually happens, and with the new abundance of fold quartz that the Frontier fleet now has in their possession, humanity is on the cusp of being able to do exploration on a level that the SDFM crew could only have dreamed of. There is more than enough meat for a second season.

Hell, even a coda episode would have helped immensely, Tylor's final couple of episodes are a great example of what I'm talking about, or hell the last episode of Tenchi Muyo! TV would work as well.

Oh and one last thing:

You can disagree with me about Frontier all you want. But badmouth KOR, and we'll have words. Stern, stern, words.

Ok, I lied, another last point:

If most of the above issues had been dealt with during the series proper, than I'd probably be less annoyed at the lack of a coda. But as awesome of an episode as 25 was, with everything that was left hanging, it doesn't feel complete, it doesn't bother finishing off its main threads, and it just leaves me (and many others) feeling unsatisfied.

For me Macross has always been less about the battles and more about the aftermath. Macross F's ending couldn't be arsed to care about it.

I would've liked to see...well, not a full nine episodes like SDFM, but maybe one or two wrap-up eps.

I still think that in all of Macross, M7 probably had the most satisfying ending. ("Yeah, because it was over!" I hear the naysayers shouting. )

But I was fine with Frontier's conclusion. VF5SS on Destory All Podcasts probably had the best description of it ever, when he said "It was like getting punched in the face with a fist made of Awesome."

Anyway, it wasn't the first nor likely the last time we get a rushed ending in an anime. And as far as rushed endings go, I liked it a lot more than a lot of other series I could mention.

[bishopcruz]

I would've liked to see...well, not a full nine episodes like SDFM, but maybe one or two wrap-up eps.

I would have been cool with that too. The ending felt too abrupt.

I still think that in all of Macross, M7 probably had the most satisfying ending. ("Yeah, because it was over!" I hear the naysayers shouting. )

Need to finally get through M7, could not get past the first 10 eps. I tried 3 times. Failed every time.

But I was fine with Frontier's conclusion. VF5SS on Destory All Podcasts probably had the best description of it ever, when he said "It was like getting punched in the face with a fist made of Awesome."

Anyway, it wasn't the first nor likely the last time we get a rushed ending in an anime. And as far as rushed endings go, I liked it a lot more than a lot of other series I could mention.

The final episode is masterfully directed, and is full of win, it just ends WAY too abruptly for my tastes, especially with the amount of character investment that the series had given us. An ep like we discussed above, and it probably would have been a much more satisfying conclusion.