Question about the macross universe

[Max is a Genius]

Hi, I just recently registered on this forum after browsing it for a few years. I've been a fun of Macross since I watched for the first time Robotech (which was aired here in italy in mid 80s), yeah I know they are two different kind of stuffs, but RT introduced me to that world and DYRL? sucked me in forever heh. Now, after the introduction the question.

I've been browsing many sites, the macross compendium and other sources and I've often found references to the cloning of the few survivor of the SDF1 for repopulation and colonicazion. Now, I wonder where this claim came from. I mean it has been officialy stated by the autors somewhere or it's just an educated guess ??

Thanx

[sketchley]

It's officially stated by the creators of Macross in the timeline printed in the Macross Perfect Memory book.

See http://macross.anime.net//story/chronology/2010/index.html and http://macross.anime.net//story/chronology/2013/index.html for an English translation (search for cloning.)

[Ginrai]

Even if it wasn't, they talk about it all the time in the opening to episodes of Macross 7.

[Max is a Genius]

I watched every episode of M7 and I never noticed that reference.. dang I guess I have to watch the intro all over again. Thanx for the answers tho, now that I know it's canon I can finally use it in my RPG campaign =)

[sketchley]

It's only after the opening credits, shown in the first handful of episodes.

Basically, it shows the destruction of Earth, meeting and peace treaty signing with the Zentraedi, cloning, and the creation of emmigration fleets to explore the galaxy.

[Valkyrie addict]

UN Spacy should clone a bunch of Roy Focker and Max to created a super elite fighter squadron

[JB0]

UN Spacy should clone a bunch of Roy Focker and Max to created a super elite fighter squadron

We actually don't know that they didn't.

The exact nature of the cloning program isn't known, just that it made a lot of people. It's entirely possible there WAS a bias in the system towards "good" gene sets.

Probably not so much, given they'd just come out of a war with a genetically-engineered warrior race, so the whole eugenics angle was more unappealing than usual, but it's still possible.

[Star Dragon]

Hopefully they had a chance to save some DNA from the "Bridge Bunnies" and today for the low low price of $19.99 you can have all three! (Collect yours today!)

[Knight26]

I read somewhere, probably not official, that the cloning process was a variant of that used by the Zents/Melts, and that it did not produce true clones because it would introduce variations into the gene sequences, and prevent the creation of hundreds of identical individuals. It was these variations that eventually led to the problems that shut down the program.

[JB0]

I read somewhere, probably not official, that the cloning process was a variant of that used by the Zents/Melts, and that it did not produce true clones because it would introduce variations into the gene sequences, and prevent the creation of hundreds of identical individuals. It was these variations that eventually led to the problems that shut down the program.

Why would the zentradi cloning process introduce variation?

No breeding means no danger of inbreeding, so variation should be less important.

....

I guess it could potentially reduce the effectiveness of bioweapons, but...

I was under the impression the program was discontinued due to birth defects rising in the natural birth population from accidental incest.

It'd be a real concern if you were trying to dramatically boost the population with cloning to re-inhabit the Earth AND colonize other planets and have less than a million individuals for source gene sequences. Sounds like a lot of people, but it's not even 1 percent of the planet's current population.

Of course, the speed of repopulating through cloning would be capped by the availability of foster parents.

I assume the clones would be released to foster parents as babies and have a "normal" childhood, since NOT having one would kinda torpedo the preserving civilization angle. And probably be a bit too zentradi for people's tastes.

I dunno exactly how many kids are managable for a set of parents, but given we survive twins now, I figure you could drop 2 or 3 babies on a set of foster parents, and give them another pair once the first set gets a little older(say 2 years?). Gives clones an edge over naturally-produced humans, which are usually capped at about 1 per year per couple.

Yes, foster parents would be VERY BUSY under that plan, but the program's primary concern is boosting the population. It's their patriotic duty as humans to raise armies of test-tube babies, and find time to pop out a natural child or 2 along the way!

And there's probably killer government incentives for participating in the program... and even larger incentives for breeding naturally.

...

There'd probably be a lot of kids conceived/adopted just for the incentives, actually.

ANYWAYS... back in focus...

The Chronology entry in the Compendium says "Because of the increase in hereditary children's diseases due to the overuse of cloning, mass cloning is terminated."

It doesn't state either direction as the reason.

[Mr March]

Given the scale, it's unlikely that interbreeding was a problem. The compendium notes that after Space War I there were still several million human survivors plus all the genetically compatible Zentradi from the remains of the Adoclass Fleet. That's a very broad base from which to clone. Further, most of the cloned people are naturally segregated from the rest of humanity because they are going off to colonize distant worlds. By time people start freely moving inbetween established colony worlds, decades have already passed, generations are born and genetic growth/drift has already begun. As I understand it, genetic diversity would be quite healthy for anyone to breed at that point.

Plus, with cloning, you're aware of genetic incompatibility. If you meet a clone of your father/mother/sister/brother, you're still not going to have a relationship with that person even if she/he is technically a different person. Well, at least most people wouldn't

Edited July 19, 2007 by Mr March

[eugimon]

Well, you have to remember with cloning, you're usually taking from an adult cell, and DNA has already had age related damage. So the clone, maybe biologically one age, but the amount of damage done to his DNA is already pretty advanced. This would mean that if you have two clones breeding, especially if the mother is a clone, the risk of genetic linked diseases increases. Likely, clone x clone populations probably saw an increase in the births of children with downs syndrome and other non curable ailments.

Seeing as characters in Macross seem to age normally, it's unlikely that they've created ways to restore age related DNA damage.

[JB0]

Seeing as characters in Macross seem to age normally, it's unlikely that they've created ways to restore age related DNA damage.

I dunno... Max and Millia are looking pretty good for their age...

Besides, it's HIGHLY possible there's techniques to restore source DNA for cloning that aren't applicable to the contributor.

[eugimon]

I dunno... Max and Millia are looking pretty good for their age...

Besides, it's HIGHLY possible there's techniques to restore source DNA for cloning that aren't applicable to the contributor.

Max and milia would only be in their fifties, and it's not uncalled for to look youthful into your fifties. And in the colony ships, you see plenty of older citizens. Besides, I would imagine there's a certain anime fudge factor at work when it comes to aging characters appropriately.

If there was a way to restore DNA in the clones, there's no reason why cloning would result in hereditary diseases. Accelerated aging is one of the major stumbling blocks in real-world cloning. And with careful management, a healthy breeding stock of some 150 individuals should be enough to rebuild a population. And more than that survived space war 1.

[Pat Payne]

Why would the zentradi cloning process introduce variation?

No breeding means no danger of inbreeding, so variation should be less important.

....

I guess it could potentially reduce the effectiveness of bioweapons, but...

I'm guessing that the reason was that having some randmoness, while perhaps raising the risk of genetic deseases like hemophilia also raised the possibility of unplanned improvements to the Zentradi "species" for lack of a better term. For instance, if an unplanned gene variation increased Zent strength or dexterity by 20 %, it would be seen as an unalloyed good. and for those variations that resulted in genetic defects, well...the PCs most likely would have seen Zentradi life as pretty cheap.

(Storywise, of course, it removed the story confusion of all the Zents looking like Temura Morrison )

I was under the impression the program was discontinued due to birth defects rising in the natural birth population from accidental incest.

It'd be a real concern if you were trying to dramatically boost the population with cloning to re-inhabit the Earth AND colonize other planets and have less than a million individuals for source gene sequences.

Not as much as you might think. The inbreeding has to be in a fairly restricted bloodline for many generations for problems to occur, IIRC. Around a million people aren't going to cause those problems, as there's still enough genetic diversity to offset any potential inbreeding damage. It's more of a problem in royal families where the "breeding stock," if you will, numbers somewhere in the thousands or even hundreds (even less for the Macedonian Ptolemy line of Pharoahs, where brothers and sisters were oligated to marry as king and queen). That's why the decendants of Queen Victoria (the Windsor, Hohenzollern and Romanov lines of England, Prussia and Russia) had and have such problems with genetic defects (which may give Harry and William an out for their lunacy) such as the hemophilia that plagued many members of those families , most notably the Tsarevich Alexi. Similarly, there was a clan of blue-skinned people in Kentucky, the Fugates, who were carrying a rare gene that they passed on through inbreeding due to geographic isolation 'round 1800. It's less common among them now due to their isolation being largly eradicated and more genetic material making its way into their bloodline.

Edited July 27, 2007 by Pat Payne

[Pat Payne]

Grr...double post blues

Edited July 27, 2007 by Pat Payne

[Zinjo]

Max and milia would only be in their fifties, and it's not uncalled for to look youthful into your fifties. And in the colony ships, you see plenty of older citizens. Besides, I would imagine there's a certain anime fudge factor at work when it comes to aging characters appropriately.

Well considering Max and Millia spent most of their adult life in space where the natural aging agents (solar radiation, enviromental conditions, etc...) were not readily apparent, they would naturally retain their youthful appearance. They actually addressed that in ST:TNG with the Starfleet captains getting their commissions at later ages due to the longevity of life for people who live in space.

If there was a way to restore DNA in the clones, there's no reason why cloning would result in hereditary diseases. Accelerated aging is one of the major stumbling blocks in real-world cloning. And with careful management, a healthy breeding stock of some 150 individuals should be enough to rebuild a population. And more than that survived space war 1.

It could have been better if it were attributed to a wearing out of cloning equipment and the lack of means to properly build new ones. This would substantially curtail any new clones in an effort to maintain the remaining cloning machines for future use. However the producers didn't take that approach.

Edited July 27, 2007 by Zinjo

[SpacyAce2012]

Given the scale, it's unlikely that interbreeding was a problem. The compendium notes that after Space War I there were still several million human survivors plus all the genetically compatible Zentradi from the remains of the Adoclass Fleet. That's a very broad base from which to clone. Further, most of the cloned people are naturally segregated from the rest of humanity because they are going off to colonize distant worlds. By time people start freely moving inbetween established colony worlds, decades have already passed, generations are born and genetic growth/drift has already begun. As I understand it, genetic diversity would be quite healthy for anyone to breed at that point.

Plus, with cloning, you're aware of genetic incompatibility. If you meet a clone of your father/mother/sister/brother, you're still not going to have a relationship with that person even if she/he is technically a different person. Well, at least most people wouldn't

Several million? I haven't been to the Compendium in a while, but has this been retconned recently? The last time I checked, it was 500,000 (to approx. one million).

[JB0]

I'm guessing that the reason was that having some randmoness, while perhaps raising the risk of genetic deseases like hemophilia also raised the possibility of unplanned improvements to the Zentradi "species" for lack of a better term. For instance, if an unplanned gene variation increased Zent strength or dexterity by 20 %, it would be seen as an unalloyed good. and for those variations that resulted in genetic defects, well...the PCs most likely would have seen Zentradi life as pretty cheap.

But the zentradi were already engineered to be awesome. If random variation held the potential to massively improve them, their designers did a lousy job.

Well considering Max and Millia spent most of their adult life in space where the natural aging agents (solar radiation, enviromental conditions, etc...) were not readily apparent, they would naturally retain their youthful appearance. They actually addressed that in ST:TNG with the Starfleet captains getting their commissions at later ages due to the longevity of life for people who live in space.

I like my solution better.

Overtech face cream: Guaranteed to make you look 20 years younger or your money back!

[Max is a Genius]

I have another question at this point. What age whould the clones have ? I mean did they grow them normaly, giving babies to foster parents or they fast-grow the clones to have ready to use people for colonization ? I guess both where workable solution and fast grown clones where more commons in early colonizations (like megaroad class) but what about later time like 2020s and 30s ?

[Pat Payne]

I have another question at this point. What age whould the clones have ? I mean did they grow them normaly, giving babies to foster parents or they fast-grow the clones to have ready to use people for colonization ? I guess both where workable solution and fast grown clones where more commons in early colonizations (like megaroad class) but what about later time like 2020s and 30s ?

Well, if the UN Spacy clones are anything like the Zents, they probably leave the cloning tubes in early adulthood , and they probably do reach an aproximation of old age -- Britai was in his 30s during the show, and there was reference to one Bakorela, a Zent on the verge of retirement in Kamujin's batallion, (although in a very militaristic culture as the Zentradi, I shudder to think what "retirement" really means) who was so old his aim was deteriorating, a fault Kamujin used to his advantage during the intimidation barrage that Britai had ordered to induce the Macross to surrender.

In fact, the UN Spacy repopulation clones probably were designed to be indistinguishable from normal humans, and so probably had a full and normal human lifespan (after any potential acclerated aging to get them up to child-bearing age, if they went that route)

[Mr March]

Several million? I haven't been to the Compendium in a while, but has this been retconned recently? The last time I checked, it was 500,000 (to approx. one million).

Ooops! I made a mistake. Survivors were several hundred thousand to one million.

Still, I suppose at least a couple million total humans surviving is not unreasonable. There's roughly 60-100 thousand people just on the Macross (depending upon personnel levels) not included in the count. There was the UNS fleet of six ARMD vessels and 125 Oberths ships (plus squadrons and support personnel) not in the count. Then you have all the Zentradi in the 100 ships and all the defected Zentradi from the Factory Satellite. So I think there's quite few.

Edited July 29, 2007 by Mr March

[briscojr84]

Ooops! I made a mistake. Survivors were 750-to-one million.

Still, I suppose at least a couple million total humans surviving is not unreasonable. There's roughly 60-100 thousand people just on the Macross (depending upon personnel levels) not included in the count. There was the UNS fleet of six ARMD vessels and 125 Oberths ships (plus squadrons and support personnel) not in the count. Then you have all the Zentradi in the 100 ships and all the defected Zentradi from the Factory Satellite. So I think there's quite few.

Plus however many were at the Moon Base Shipyard working on the SDF-02.

[Mr March]

Plus however many were at the Moon Base Shipyard working on the SDF-02.

Those were included in the count. In the several hundred thousand to one million count they include three Grand Cannon installations that survived, the Apollo Base on the Lunar Surface where the SDF-2 is constructed and space colony clusters which the compendium describes as "bunches".

So everything outside that count (SDF-1, UN Spacy Fleet, Zentradi remaining from the Adoclass Fleet and defectors from the Factory Satellite) would modify the survivor count significantly. All things said and done, the survivor count is likely to be at least two million, two thirds of which are likely human and another third Zentradi.

Edited July 29, 2007 by Mr March

[JB0]

I have another question at this point. What age whould the clones have ? I mean did they grow them normaly, giving babies to foster parents or they fast-grow the clones to have ready to use people for colonization ? I guess both where workable solution and fast grown clones where more commons in early colonizations (like megaroad class) but what about later time like 2020s and 30s ?

I would assume most, if not all, clones were removed at infancy.

It helps preserve more aspects of the society, and there's probably a desire to not be TOO zentradi-like.

[sketchley]

Those were included in the count. In the several hundred thousand to one million count they include three Grand Cannon installations that survived, the Apollo Base on the Lunar Surface where the SDF-2 is constructed and space colony clusters which the compendium describes as "bunches".

Shoji Kawamori, ever the fan of Gundam; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Colony_%28Gundam%29

[Mr March]

It wouldn't surprise me if the space colony "bunches" were a tip-of-the-hat to Gundam. It makes sense.

[kung flu]

I had no idea that cloning was used to repopulate the human race, I always assumed the humans were all the descendants of the survivors and also the zentradai. Since zentradai and humans are the same and can have children I always thought the population level was healthy.

[Mr March]

Does anyone else find the recurring propagation of disease a really weak cause for an end to mass cloning? The Zentradi are all healthy, diverse and they've been cloning for longer than the entire recorded history of humans. It's so unbelievable that in little less than 20 years of cloning humans some insurmountable problem of systemic disease stopped the entire process. If cloning were truly so fraught with such runaway genetic problems, the Zentradi wouldn't have lasted more than a few generations.

IMO, I think the reason continuity writers chose to utilize this "solution" was a need to control the monster they had unleashed at the end of SDF Macross. With perfect cloning now in the hands of humans, not only was it possible to recoup the entire lost population of Earth, but in a few more decades of exponential growth the humans would start to approach population levels that the Varauta and the remaining Zentradi couldn't hope to threaten on any short term period of time. Conflicts would approach such a scale that hundreds of years would need to pass before one side could hope to wipe out the other, much like the situation with the Supervision Army still around hundreds of thousands of years later. A counterbalance had to be created to somehow stunt the virtually limitless resources and technology of a human population that would quickly enter into the trillions (short scale).

[eugimon]

well, there could be some reasons... the zentradi likely benefited from more genetic tinkering that humans and a more robust genetic structure could have been designed into them. Or, they had a better original stock to choose from. The RL problem with cloning is that the genetic material used to start the clone already has had however many years of recombination errors and environmental damage done to it. The resulting clones maybe biologically one age, but their genetic integrity is a compounding of the host's and theirs. But if the PC had in mind to clone the zentradi from the start, they could have set aside a pure genetic sample, then the resulting clones wouldn't have that problem.

Also, the zentradi may not have been interested in concepts like long life or quality of life and were simply not alive long enough for things like disease to bother them. We also don't know if they were spartan in their treatment of clones with disabilities. While modern humans would more or less be loathe to do mass kullings based on genetic weakness, I doubt the zentradi would have any such qualms.

[Mr March]

Those aren't bad, though I'd considered the superior stock concept myself. The reason I don't think that's it is the broad genetic diversity among the Zentradi, which appears as vast as is among humans. Still, I suppose it's possible the PC could create even broad genetic stock of robust structures to begin the process, however unlikely. As for a pure genetic sample, how would one even quantify that? I doubt the PC could create a "perfect" genetic sample any more than we can. And given their history, I'd say that's a certainty.

I'm not sure unconcern with disease is likely to exist among Zentradi. If the were so weak against disease, culture shock would be the least of Zentradi concerns. A single exposure could tip off plagues the likes of which no one has ever seen. A terrestrial landing on Earth would be enough to infect an entire fleet of Zentradi with any of a number of diseases incurable due to lack of Zentradi medical professions. Given that Britai was already in his mid 30's, Bodolza very likely older and that Milia lived to at least her 50's (and was a rather hot looking grandma I might add), I don't think they suffer weak resistance to ailments more than the average human. In all likelihood, the reverse would have to hold true and the Zentradi would have to be immune to numerous diseases lest they fall victim to simple ailments with no method to combat them.

Culling is a good one. I hadn't considered that. I'd say you might be right on the mark with that one. The Zentradi would likely have no compunction about destroying genetic defectives, but humans would consider it abhorrent.

[eugimon]

Ah, my point wasn't that the zentradi would be more prone to disease and infection, just that their bodies give out earlier comparatively to humans. Kind of like the great cats and wolves compared to their domesticated cousins. By all measurable standards, the wild kin are physically superiour but their life spans are shorter. Not because they're weaker, but just because they don't have loving bipeds caring for them.

[Mr March]

I guess we'd need a final age for Milia and other Zentradi to know for sure. She certainly seems spry

[Max is a Genius]

We know Mirial lived at last for 37 or so years with the humans, gave birth to 7 doughters and from M7 Encore it looks like she never had the flu or any other disease in that time as a miclone (for those that didn't watched Encore 2, she believe she's dieing because she has the flu =P). Given that I'd say Zents are much more healthy and tough then human, even half zent gain such trait it seems from what I remember or Milia remark when she litteraly throw little Komilia at Hayase in the original Macross. May that be the result of genetic engeniering ? Most likely, but given the short lifespan a warrior race can have, and the fact Zents before mixing with humans wheren't even able to do simple repairs to their ships I guess the technology to clone their armies (since the PC were long gone by then) must be not only perfect but also ridicoulosly easy to use.

[eugimon]

hmm, good point.