jenius Posted November 9, 2006 Share Posted November 9, 2006 (edited) Max indicates that Basara actually flies and is quite proficient at doing so, though no where near the level the former in his prime. OMG you just reminded me of another thing I hate about Mac7. Remember when Gamlin was all butt-hurt because Basara routinely broke some proficiency barrier in his valk that Gamlin just couldn't quite achieve?? Then in one episode Gamlin actually achieves it and everyone is like "Whoa!" I'll take my cheese with an extra side of CHEESE. Some piloting skill barrier? Ugh... Edited November 9, 2006 by jenius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justvinnie Posted November 9, 2006 Share Posted November 9, 2006 It was just some really hard move that Gamlin hadn't master. From what I understand, there are such moves in real life that pilots of skill can pull off with more facility than others. vinnie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted November 9, 2006 Share Posted November 9, 2006 And truth be told, the major draw of Macross II is the hotness that is Ishtar & Sylvie. Some of you really have a hard-on against guitars, were your mothers killed by guitars or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenius Posted November 9, 2006 Share Posted November 9, 2006 Some of you really have a hard-on against guitars, were your mothers killed by guitars or something? This marks the first occasion I have ever seen someone use the term "hard-on against" something. Having a hard-on is a euphemism for erection. You don't get an erection because you abhor something (like guitar-based flight controls). You get an erection because you enjoy something, like Sylvie or Ishtar. If you're going to accuse MacII fans of having hard-ons for hotties whereas Mac7 fans wouldn't feel that way I think you may want to reconsider your argument as it would lead me to wonder what does give Mac7 fans hard-ons... but I suppose I'm being entirely too literal now huh? Keith, can you clarify what I was talking about with Gamlin and that skill level he couldn't achieve. It would take me forever to find the episode and watch it again. Was it really just a maneuver? It seemed to me like their was some sort of real-time ranking system involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kensei Posted November 9, 2006 Share Posted November 9, 2006 The way I interpreted QM-69 is that it required multiple consequetive barrel rolls in battroid mode at full speed, not only strafing, but rolling while you are strafing. Apparently you hit a lot of G's, and it is hard to perform the manoevure in it's entirety cause it breaks the pilots concentration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenius Posted November 9, 2006 Share Posted November 9, 2006 The way I interpreted QM-69 is that it required multiple consequetive barrel rolls in battroid mode at full speed, not only strafing, but rolling while you are strafing. Apparently you hit a lot of G's, and it is hard to perform the manoevure in it's entirety cause it breaks the pilots concentration. I guess that's plausible but it seems strange to me that that would be something any pilot routinely did during battle. Gamlin kind of gives the impression that Basara is so great 'cause he breaks this barrier all the time that Gamlin's never been able to break. I had the impression it was something Basara did often... I don't think any specialized maneuver that involved strafing loopty loops would be something you'd observe regularly. Then again, anything is possible... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kensei Posted November 9, 2006 Share Posted November 9, 2006 I guess that's plausible but it seems strange to me that that would be something any pilot routinely did during battle. Gamlin kind of gives the impression that Basara is so great 'cause he breaks this barrier all the time that Gamlin's never been able to break. I had the impression it was something Basara did often... I don't think any specialized maneuver that involved strafing loopty loops would be something you'd observe regularly. Then again, anything is possible... Only two crazy explanations I can give you mate, tell me if I'm really tugging it. If we had battroids that could really do that, the force that would be applied on those pilots would be great. I don't think that it is an easy feat. You're rolling and strafing left right and centre and expected to change directions very fast, I don't think that would be easy. There is one reason why I think that Basara can handle it easily and Gamlin could not for awhile, is because that Basara uses his singing to somatasise, he doesn't think about the pressures that are on his body and hence is able to do it a lot easier. But please, lets not say that Basara is a talented VF pilot. If there is anyone that is a talented pilot, it is Max, Millia and Gamlin, and Mylene even. But not Basara. He is only a good Battroid pilot, an average fighter pilot and a crappy GERWALK pilot. Everyone else averages out, but not Basara. He has not once proven to me that he is good in any other mode than Battroid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sketchley Posted November 9, 2006 Share Posted November 9, 2006 Maybe it's the speed or rate of change in the manuever? Pilots with skill did it better. Basara had a lot of inertia dampers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kensei Posted November 9, 2006 Share Posted November 9, 2006 Did he? I'd like to see that in the Kai's profile. But I don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr March Posted November 9, 2006 Share Posted November 9, 2006 If you're going to accuse MacII fans of having hard-ons for hotties whereas Mac7 fans wouldn't feel that way I think you may want to reconsider your argument as it would lead me to wonder what does give Mac7 fans hard-ons... but I suppose I'm being entirely too literal now huh? Maybe when they make trombones to steer a car or a toilet seat to drive a tank, the idea of flying a jet via guitar won't seem so pointedly absurd...but I doubt it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zinjo Posted November 9, 2006 Share Posted November 9, 2006 But please, lets not say that Basara is a talented VF pilot. If there is anyone that is a talented pilot, it is Max, Millia and Gamlin, and Mylene even. But not Basara. He is only a good Battroid pilot, an average fighter pilot and a crappy GERWALK pilot. Everyone else averages out, but not Basara. He has not once proven to me that he is good in any other mode than Battroid. Actually a very good point! I hadn't separated the skills of a VF pilot, as it is conceivable that a person could be better in one form over another. Max and Millia were ace pilots in any mode. If I remember correctly the manuever was in regard to being able to dodge multilple missile and weapons fire through barrel rolls and various defensive dodges in battroid mode. Basara only fired his gun to shoot his speaker pods at the beginning of his run, it wasn't often he would fire after beginning his song. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB0 Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 Actually a very good point! I hadn't separated the skills of a VF pilot, as it is conceivable that a person could be better in one form over another. Max and Millia were ace pilots in any mode. I think they did some of that in the original series. Hikaru seemed to favor fighter mode. ... I COULD point to the VF-1D chaos, but given he had appreciable plane experience and not even basic robot training, it's not really valid. But even after he got some training, his stunt pilot experience gave him a good deal more plane experience than anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eugimon Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 I think they did some of that in the original series. Hikaru seemed to favor fighter mode. ... I COULD point to the VF-1D chaos, but given he had appreciable plane experience and not even basic robot training, it's not really valid. But even after he got some training, his stunt pilot experience gave him a good deal more plane experience than anything else. well, the only mode he wasn't shot down in was gerwalk, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 He lost an arm in Gerwalk, does that count? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 This marks the first occasion I have ever seen someone use the term "hard-on against" something. Having a hard-on is a euphemism for erection. You don't get an erection because you abhor something (like guitar-based flight controls). Actually, that's exactly what I'm saying. That people definately have a hard-on about something they don't like, i.e. hard-on against something. It's a euphemism for passionate dislike if you will. Perhaps a local colloquialism, perhaps not. But regardless, you've heard it now You get an erection because you enjoy something, like Sylvie or Ishtar. If you're going to accuse MacII fans of having hard-ons for hotties whereas Mac7 fans wouldn't feel that way I think you may want to reconsider your argument as it would lead me to wonder what does give Mac7 fans hard-ons... but I suppose I'm being entirely too literal now huh? See above, also, I never said 7 didn't have its fair share of hot chicks, as it definately does. Just that the hot chicks in II were the only long lasting redeeming value in it. Keith, can you clarify what I was talking about with Gamlin and that skill level he couldn't achieve. It would take me forever to find the episode and watch it again. Was it really just a maneuver? It seemed to me like their was some sort of real-time ranking system involved. Whethr it's a specific exact manuever, or just a specific type of manuever isn't really clear. It could just mean that Basara can spin & such with at high speeds without blacking out & crashing due to the G's, or it could be some complex dodging manuever Ray taught him. But regardless, Gamlin & Max both acknowledged Basara's skill. I'd even venture to say Milia wasn't criticising his flying ability in the city, as much as his choices in how he was flying in the city. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eugimon Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 just to chime in on the "hard-on" thing... I hear it used as: "passionate dislike" as well... from my watching of mac 7, I got the impression that basara was very talented, but had poor judgement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justvinnie Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 Damn! The Gigil dying, the Stargazer eps... these all hit you hard. vinnie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justvinnie Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 oh and as for Basara not growing. He does grow a great deal from the beginning of the series and at the end. He knew where he wanted to go, but not who he was. In rewatching you see him as he discovers himself and realizes his goals. Unlike other characters though is growth is a subtle one. It is not one of change but rather embellishment. vinnie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bandit29 Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 Don't like either of them really. Macross II is a poor remake of DYRL? with lame VFs. Macross 7 well...Basara, generic anime cast(sans Max and Millia), the ridiculous amount of singing, really lame villians....etc etc. But if I had to choose..I'd take Macross II. Don't really care if Kawamori wasn't involved. He was with M7...look how that turned out....I'm still not sure if I even like Macross Zero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eugimon Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 buahaha, you called the VFs in Mac II lame... oooh boy, I smell gasoline on the floor now, anybody got a match? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kensei Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 Even though it is true. *hands eugimon a lighter* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamikaze_kamujin Posted November 10, 2006 Author Share Posted November 10, 2006 I think most people who doesnt like it doesnt feel confortable with saying it. It's like it's ok to say you like this or that but if you want to say it sucks or why it sucks you are persuaded not to do it because you could hurt other people's feelings or getting the topic heated. Otherwise, how can it be that 44% of people who voted it in that poll you showed me as the most hated macross show, arent saying something about it but it's all good commentaries and flowers, and you read things as the show it's good because it has good characteres, and no one saying Jesus you have a hippie pilot, cheesy villains, cheesy uniforms, masks, flying through space - spiritia "vampires", a preteen looking female pilot or most of them sucks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kensei Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 (edited) People coming in and just saying "it is the suXor" or "it roxX!" is pretty pointless really. We've had this conversation about either series enough times already enough to motivate people to at least put forward well backed up reasons as to why they like or do not like it. Your post made my head hurt. Couldn't understand much of it. Edited November 10, 2006 by kensei Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JsARCLIGHT Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 Long story short: the topic you chose is a long standing heated one here on MW. When people say negative things about a show and do so in an articulate and thought out way few people see the need to say anything more on the subject as someone has already summed up their feelings. Suffice it to say you are in the camp that dislikes M7 and your reasons are pretty much the same as the other people's reasons. There is no need for a hundred sycophantic posts saying virtually the same thing. The poll Az linked to should be taken as it is, a poll of opinion. People don't always have to post their reasons or feelings... their opinion was voiced well enough by their vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr March Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 buahaha, you called the VFs in Mac II lame... oooh boy, I smell gasoline on the floor now, anybody got a match? Is there really contention over that point? They are lame designs. *chortle* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr March Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 I think most people who doesnt like it doesnt feel confortable with saying it. It's like it's ok to say you like this or that but if you want to say it sucks or why it sucks you are persuaded not to do it because you could hurt other people's feelings or getting the topic heated. Otherwise, how can it be that 44% of people who voted it in that poll you showed me as the most hated macross show, arent saying something about it but it's all good commentaries and flowers, and you read things as the show it's good because it has good characteres, and no one saying Jesus you have a hippie pilot, cheesy villains, cheesy uniforms, masks, flying through space - spiritia "vampires", a preteen looking female pilot or most of them sucks? Periods...punctuation...prose; need it now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briscojr84 Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 (edited) I know how to kill the topic. Usually I don't get involved in these discussions but since this one is pretty tame. So here are my takes on it. Macross II - Characters - Could have been better, most of them seemed to flip-flop between competent and stupid, except for Exagram [sp?] who just acted mysterious. Mecha - Would have loved to seen more of the New Destroids, the VF's in my opinion weren't so much lame as rather on the generic side, as were the Zentraedi Battlepods who seemed to take a step back in usefulness, the power suits were also rather generic. Music - It was okay, but not my favorite. Storyline - Good war story but a tad on the shollow side for development. Macross 7 - Characters - Max was cool as ever, Millia was a little too neurotic and I'd love to find out how she ended up this way. Basara I wanted to punch the first few episodes but he does mature somewhat towards the end, although running up to people and yelling listen to me sing or whatever it was did grate on the nerves, Gamlin should have given up on Mylene and gone after one of the bridge bunnies and his character should have been better developed, as for the other characters there seemed to be a nice blend of nutty and serious. As for the protodeviln, well maybe a little less colorful and maybe a little scarier would have helped. Mecha - Eye candy out the butt, love the VF's could do without the boobs on Mylene's VF however. Loved seeing the older Destroids and Valks at the one fair or whatever it was. Battle scenes could have been better, and a little more Max action as well. Probably could have done without the transforming Battle 7 but hey the last long running series had one so why not. Music - Loved most of it, but the repetitive gets annoying at some points, I still laugh at my subbed copy when they are talking about planet dance and the subtitles have it as Parry Stands, took me awhile to figure that one out. Storyline - Pretty good, gave us some background on the ProtoCulture, a little bit more of character development wouldn't have hurt either, although I would have to agree that it could have been a tad shorter maybe 39 Eps. Edited November 10, 2006 by briscojr84 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zinjo Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 Macross 7 - As for the protodeviln, well maybe a little less colorful and maybe a little scarier would have helped. Come to think of it, had the PD been scarrier, I may have accepted them more... As it was, they were more Hanna Barbera cartoonish than viable antagonists. I won't blast the transforming Battle 7 (I've done that already, elsewhere), it was simply tragic to take Miyatake's amazing carrier design and insist it turn into a rifle toting Shogun Warrior... In terms of design IMO this series was Miyatake's triumph in space craft design. Really brilliant stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eugimon Posted November 11, 2006 Share Posted November 11, 2006 I can't believe we've totally moved on from the ever inflamatory stance that the valks in II were the crap and onto comparing the villains... Where Mac II really shines with the blatant gundam meets sabertooth rip off mechs and generic baddies complete with non-sensical facial tattoos. Mac 7's villains fit perfectly into the macross ideology of villains who are not necessarily villains but people who have perspectives and priorities different from the antagonists... of course with the big bad behind it all who is rightfully the big bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warmaker Posted November 14, 2006 Share Posted November 14, 2006 Macross II and Macross VII are very low for me on the goodness of all things Macross. My very short Pro's & Con's: Macross VII + More Max & Millia - Basara -- Musical Instrument Controlled Valks - Basara * I refuse to listen to Basara's song * * I enjoyed the more military atmosphere of the original Macross. I didn't feel that with VII * - Basara Macross II + Sylvie Gina + I sort liked the Valks in II, but not the Metal Siren - Hibiki's annoying, but not Basara annoying - Basic story was hokey -- Hibiki and Sylvie's relationship coming about in a highly abrupt, "WTF," out of nowhere fashion + The last good thing out of Mac II is the "This is Animation" book I can go on about Mac VII, but I'll keep it polite. With that in mind, Mac II wasn't exactly adequate either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted November 14, 2006 Share Posted November 14, 2006 Macross VII? Wasn't that the one where Cloud leading the Avalanch Team went up against Sephiroth & Jenova Team? That was an awesome dogfight! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB0 Posted November 14, 2006 Share Posted November 14, 2006 Macross VII? Wasn't that the one where Cloud leading the Avalanch Team went up against Sephiroth & Jenova Team? That was an awesome dogfight! You forgot the part where it turned out Hikaru was a clone of Roy, who was a clone of an alien. Or Roy was an alien and Hikaru was injected with alien cells. Or Max was the clone, and Hikaru just got brainwashed into thinking he was actually Max. It's really not very clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted November 14, 2006 Share Posted November 14, 2006 Wait, was that before or after Kaifun killed Minmay while Hikaru brooded over it for the rest of the show? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightning Posted November 14, 2006 Share Posted November 14, 2006 I think it was before, 'cause Hikaru was full of angst for the entire show, it made him easier to be shown as a jerk that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warmaker Posted November 14, 2006 Share Posted November 14, 2006 Macross VII? Wasn't that the one where Cloud leading the Avalanch Team went up against Sephiroth & Jenova Team? That was an awesome dogfight! Regardless, it's the gay Macross with the annoying Basara and Instrument Flight Controls for Valks. The "Epitome of Gay" for Macross. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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