The Melancholy Of Haruhi Suzumiya Thread

[VFTF1]

Move to the US. They can't search your vehicle without your permission or due process.

Back on topic, now that I have been Haruhi-ized, I am downloading some songs to listen to.

Songs from Haruhi are great! I have a CD of J-pop from Gurren Lagann, Macross and Haruhi that I listen to sometimes in my car. From Haruhi, I have Mikuru no-detsu, God Knows, Lost my Music, Super Driver and the opening to season 1. All of them rock.

As to the car searches and due process...yeah ... well... to quote Obi Wan: that was back in the "Days of the Old Republic, before the Dark Times, before the Empire."

Nowadays anybody can pretty much do whatever they want to you.

I think if the brigade chief saw it, she'd end the world and create a better one - but that's just me...

Pete

[Keith]

There's a simple solution, get some red material, and a sharpie, and make some extra armbands to keep in your car. Next time they pull you over, offer them one, along with a pamphlet preaching the gosphel of Haruhi-ism. If that doesn't get them to leave you alone, nothing will.

[VFTF1]

There's a simple solution, get some red material, and a sharpie, and make some extra armbands to keep in your car. Next time they pull you over, offer them one, along with a pamphlet preaching the gosphel of Haruhi-ism. If that doesn't get them to leave you alone, nothing will.

Oh My Goodness! You're right!! I TOTALLY forgot about the pamphlets! I need to make those!! Good call !

But does anybody have a full translation of the pamphlet? Is it in the episode?

Pete

[Marzan]

There's a simple solution, get some red material, and a sharpie, and make some extra armbands to keep in your car. Next time they pull you over, offer them one, along with a pamphlet preaching the gosphel of Haruhi-ism. If that doesn't get them to leave you alone, nothing will.

If Pete manages to convert a Polish copper to Haruhism I will put a picture of him in full SOS brigade outfit as my wallpaper!

[VFTF1]

If Pete manages to convert a Polish copper to Haruhism I will put a picture of him in full SOS brigade outfit as my wallpaper!

I think the best I could do would be to ask my girlfriend to dress up in a sexy police officer uniform and put ony my Danchou badge... But not now. In March, it's both Women's Day AND her birthday - so out of the question for me to make such requests.... If business goes ok, and I manage to treat her to something special, then she MIGHT just be inclined to do it

Pete

[Noriko Takaya]

Anyone interested I just found the ultimate Haruhi Suzumiya music torrent. PM me if you want it.

[Keith]

Anyone interested I just found the ultimate Haruhi Suzumiya music torrent. PM me if you want it.

I actually bought all the first season character song CD's, if Kyon's is in that torrent, listen to that first.

[JB0]

I always found the hysteria in this thread amusing when Endless Eight was running Just gotta go back a few pages to find it

And yes - it was IMO gutsy and I think that probably foriegn fans who had to download were more hysterical than Japanese. It's much harder to appreciate the artistic merits of Endless Eight when you've spent hours torrenting or Flashgetting an episode only to find out that it's EXACTLY THE SAME EPISODE AS BEFORE...

Much easier to be philosophic about it if all you have to do is turn on the television...

Pete

I started the torrents, walked off, and came back later.

My issue was the same one I'd get on a broadcast feed... it took them two months to resolve the story, and it was padded out in a very un-interesting way.

I think it would've been PERFECT at 3 episodes. I dropped season 2 after E8 #3, and I just couldn't be asked to care about Sighs once they were through.

Especially when it became obvious there wasn't going to be time in the season for them to do Disappearance, which were the main thing I wanted out of season 2.

It's funny, really. I was worried E8 wouldn't come out right since it's so dependent on mood. So much of Kyon's dialog gets cut for the animated versions that I didn't think the deja vu would come across(especially given the mood fell somewhat flat in Melancholy V, when Koizumi took Kyon to visit his job).

Well, they sure fixed THAT problem.

E8 #2 was especially effective because it used the fact that everyone had already read the book and knew what was coming.

It was, at that point, the series' ONLY major deviation from the books(as opposed to simple omission{Someday in the Rain doesn't exist}), so it took everyone by surprise. And the ending really hammered home that sense of despair.

There's nowhere for 3 to go after that.

[VFTF1]

I guess I'm lucky. I never read the books - never even knew they existed. I'd seen pictures of Haruhi before, but just dismissed her as another anime loli that I never heard of and that was probably not very interesting. The only reason I decided to watch the series was because of the title. "The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya" just sounded intriguingly different from SUPER SPACE BUSTER BOMBER FIGHTER BOOM! or GOD PLASMO NUCLEAR ATOMIC MAN ZAMJIKDOW! or MARS STRIKE BLADE GUNDAM! or GUNDAM 5035T4389 or GUNDAM 00094243.5 or Neon Ultra Omega Deity Beam Saber ...

You get the idea...

It's not that I was burned out on mecha anime - but I did want to try out a non combat anime, as I'd kind of realized that there were some. But I wanted to avoid something that was just pure hentai - not because I don't like hentai (although I actually don't really like porn at all - at least not in the "I want to watch something" sense - mainly because it's boring)... But a lot of stuff seemed to also have elements of witchcraft, vampires or fantasy in it...and I'm not really into that...

In any event - as soon as I started watching Mikuru Asahina No Detsu (or however you spell it) - I just felt this wave of "Oh my god! I'm watching something extremely awesome!" come over me... something I felt previously with Gurren Lagann, and something which, before Gurren Lagann, I had only felt as a little kid watching Transformers or Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles or the like...

I'm not bitter about Endless 8. It's theatrical. It's experimental. It's meant to fail - or at least not be a total success, but draw some controversy and discussion - even about execution.

So - I'm fine with it.

Especially since I just skipped all 7 of the loop episodes and was only mad at having to wait so long fr the resolution episode.

Sighs was a bit annoying - I'll grant that. But this is mainly due to Suzumiya's very...uncharacteristically satanic bent.

In the Closed Circle saga from season 1, there is a murder, but Kyon believes all along that Suzumiya would never actually WISH for the murder of an innocent person. In the end, his hunch is confirmed since it all turns out to be a joke.

The only ominous part of Closed Circle is that Shadow Murderer --- that was scary. But as Koizumi explains - he was created "just in case" - because Haruhi wished to protect Kyon from being guilt of the killing - so she created a killer...who ended up being "unnecessary."

But...I guess this proves that she is willing to do bad things to protect what she values - in this case Kyon.

In the case of Sighs - it was her whimsical fun using Mikuru as a sex toy.... Anyways - Kyon being ready to hit her and that whole scene in general were kind of bothering... and Tsuyara's willingness to be a giggling part of it..

Although - I think Tsuyara was authentically ashamed of her self when she apologized to Kyon after wards...

And Haruhi.. well...

In the end - she forgave him... and all went back to normal.. but it was pretty scary nonetheless because I think the only reason she forgave him was because she loved him ... not because she learned that it was wrong to date rape Mikuru and kill people.

Pete

[Bri]

E8 #2 was especially effective because it used the fact that everyone had already read the book and knew what was coming.

It was, at that point, the series' ONLY major deviation from the books(as opposed to simple omission{Someday in the Rain doesn't exist}), so it took everyone by surprise. And the ending really hammered home that sense of despair.

There's nowhere for 3 to go after that.

I guess this remains a difficult point for the Haruhi franchise. So many fans already know what is going to happen (to a large extent) and this creates certain expectations that will not always be met. I have avoided any kind of spoiler sofar and , I can only speak for myself, haven't been disappointed in the slightest. Especially when watching the whole, season one and two combined, in chronological order, everything falls into place and your left with an amazing piece of work.

And Haruhi.. well...

In the end - she forgave him... and all went back to normal.. but it was pretty scary nonetheless because I think the only reason she forgave him was because she loved him ... not because she learned that it was wrong to date rape Mikuru and kill people.

She did clean up her act after Sighs. Compare it to season one when Haruhi seemed to act completely out of character to help the ENOZ girls. She hever had shown empathy to that extent. Until Sigh filled in the blanks. I guess her fight with Kyon did have an effect on her personality. Being chewed out by some one you care about and respect can have a major effect.

Mikuru is just such a fun twist on the "retarded moe" stock character in crying game type VN's. Normally a girl like her would be too pretty and cute to come to harm, and as a result be little more then decoration, but in this anime she gets mauled time after time, Mikurus bad fortune is an integral part of the storyline. Ironically even her future self uses Mikuru to manipulate events. For all intents and purposes Mikuru is a tool and Haruhi treats her such to evoke reactions from Kyon.

[JB0]

So - I'm fine with it.

Especially since I just skipped all 7 of the loop episodes and was only mad at having to wait so long fr the resolution episode.

I probably should've done that. But I didn't know they were going to pull that until E8#3 aired.

In the Closed Circle saga from season 1, there is a murder, but Kyon believes all along that Suzumiya would never actually WISH for the murder of an innocent person. In the end, his hunch is confirmed since it all turns out to be a joke.

The only ominous part of Closed Circle is that Shadow Murderer --- that was scary. But as Koizumi explains - he was created "just in case" - because Haruhi wished to protect Kyon from being guilt of the killing - so she created a killer...who ended up being "unnecessary."

But...I guess this proves that she is willing to do bad things to protect what she values - in this case Kyon.

Ah, right. I keep forgetting KyoAni dragged Lone Island off course, too(perhaps because it WORKED). The shadow is a TV series change, for what it's worth.

Though if I recall, it's ambiguous if there actually WAS something there or not.

In the case of Sighs - it was her whimsical fun using Mikuru as a sex toy.... Anyways - Kyon being ready to hit her and that whole scene in general were kind of bothering... and Tsuyara's willingness to be a giggling part of it..

Although - I think Tsuyara was authentically ashamed of her self when she apologized to Kyon after wards...

And Haruhi.. well...

In the end - she forgave him... and all went back to normal.. but it was pretty scary nonetheless because I think the only reason she forgave him was because she loved him ... not because she learned that it was wrong to date rape Mikuru and kill people.

At least Kyon grows a backbone and steps in instead of merrily going along with it like in the Great Computer Club Robbery.

Ah, right. Now I'm remembering why I couldn't stand Kyon early on. Between that and the "good little consumer drone" speech... it's a wonder I kept watching at all, really.

In general, Haruhi just gets carried away. She gets an idea in her head, and acts on it without ever really stopping to think it through.

Which was a major problem throughout Sighs in other regards. She got REALLY into making her movie, and the poor world just couldn't take the stress.

Mikuru was just a more human version of things going way overboard.

...

Maybe.

She's kind of the brigade punching bag anyways, but not to that degree(except for the aforementioned Great Computer Club Robbery).

Speaking of characters that need to grow a freaking backbone...

But either way, Haruhi's never going to apologize. Not properly.

Forgiving Kyon is her way of acknowledging that he was right.

[VFTF1]

She did clean up her act after Sighs. Compare it to season one when Haruhi seemed to act completely out of character to help the ENOZ girls. She hever had shown empathy to that extent. Until Sigh filled in the blanks. I guess her fight with Kyon did have an effect on her personality. Being chewed out by some one you care about and respect can have a major effect.

Mikuru is just such a fun twist on the "retarded moe" stock character in crying game type VN's. Normally a girl like her would be too pretty and cute to come to harm, and as a result be little more then decoration, but in this anime she gets mauled time after time, Mikurus bad fortune is an integral part of the storyline. Ironically even her future self uses Mikuru to manipulate events. For all intents and purposes Mikuru is a tool and Haruhi treats her such to evoke reactions from Kyon.

Hm.

I don't know whether she acted out of empathy to help the ENOZ girls. It's a good question.... I was always so focused on her reaction to the ENOZ girls praising her afterwards and what Kyon said to her under the tree that I never really thought about WHY Haruhi did what she did..but...you're probably right. Certainly it wasn't out of some wierd ambition or ...actually...it wasn't out of any "wierd" reason (aka typical Haruhi thinking)... She didn't even do it to promote SOS, instead while on stage she was humble and she promoted ENOZ.

Maybe you're right that the fight in Sighs taught her something about people ....

As to Mikuru..weeeeeeeeelllllllll...........

a) you forget Koizumi's warning about Mikuru. True, he MIGHT have been lying - but notice how Kyon has two "tempters" - Mikuru and Koizumi always vie for his favor. Mikuru uses sex appeal (albeit she seems to do it totally unwittingly) while Koizumi TRIES to use sex appeal ("Too close! Your face is too close!") which constantly fails to impress the not-gay Kyon, so Koizumi is "forced" to use reason - and keeps having discussions with Kyon.

Koizumi's exposition on the true nature of Mikuru is pretty radical - but I wonder to what extent it's true?

In Closed Circle Kyon says he trusts Koizumi least of all - but look at Kyon's actions? Kyon constantly trusts Koizumi in action....or...so it seems...in Sighs he certainly does.

Yuki on the other hand...she's the toughest to call. I think part of the "problem" is that she takes her orders to be an observer VERY literally - and therefore has no "stake" in "what" Haruhi will do, and whether or not to do something about it. She ends up following Kyon's orders ...well...why? ...

Because certainly Yuki DOES end up doing many pro-active things - kind of along the same lines as Ritsuko wanted to do - not as extreme, not "I'll murder Kyon and see what Haruhi does" - but blocking the Mikuru Beam, opening the Door in "Closed Circle" when Kyon recinds Haruhi's orders... is Yuki NOT thereby over-reaching - stepping outside the bounds of simple "observation" -- with the only difference being that she is following Kyon's will and not her own?

Then again - the Uber Intelligence did note - or at least Yuki noted when talking to Kyon - that he (Kyon) was the unknown factor in Haruhi's entourage...

In any case...

I dunno...I dunno about Mikuru...first - I guess I haven't watched enough anime to see her character type being used only as wall paper. I mean..all the lolis I've seen in anime were also strong characters (Minmey, Nia...ok...my list is very small...) ... Mikuru is also a strong character... she's very determined to perform her role - which she shows numerous times. It's just her fear gets the better of her often...

Pete

[VFTF1]

She did clean up her act after Sighs. Compare it to season one when Haruhi seemed to act completely out of character to help the ENOZ girls. She hever had shown empathy to that extent. Until Sigh filled in the blanks. I guess her fight with Kyon did have an effect on her personality. Being chewed out by some one you care about and respect can have a major effect.

Mikuru is just such a fun twist on the "retarded moe" stock character in crying game type VN's. Normally a girl like her would be too pretty and cute to come to harm, and as a result be little more then decoration, but in this anime she gets mauled time after time, Mikurus bad fortune is an integral part of the storyline. Ironically even her future self uses Mikuru to manipulate events. For all intents and purposes Mikuru is a tool and Haruhi treats her such to evoke reactions from Kyon.

Hm.

I don't know whether she acted out of empathy to help the ENOZ girls. It's a good question.... I was always so focused on her reaction to the ENOZ girls praising her afterwards and what Kyon said to her under the tree that I never really thought about WHY Haruhi did what she did..but...you're probably right. Certainly it wasn't out of some wierd ambition or ...actually...it wasn't out of any "wierd" reason (aka typical Haruhi thinking)... She didn't even do it to promote SOS, instead while on stage she was humble and she promoted ENOZ.

Maybe you're right that the fight in Sighs taught her something about people ....

As to Mikuru..weeeeeeeeelllllllll...........

a) you forget Koizumi's warning about Mikuru. True, he MIGHT have been lying - but notice how Kyon has two "tempters" - Mikuru and Koizumi always vie for his favor. Mikuru uses sex appeal (albeit she seems to do it totally unwittingly) while Koizumi TRIES to use sex appeal ("Too close! Your face is too close!") which constantly fails to impress the not-gay Kyon, so Koizumi is "forced" to use reason - and keeps having discussions with Kyon.

Koizumi's exposition on the true nature of Mikuru is pretty radical - but I wonder to what extent it's true?

In Closed Circle Kyon says he trusts Koizumi least of all - but look at Kyon's actions? Kyon constantly trusts Koizumi in action....or...so it seems...in Sighs he certainly does.

Yuki on the other hand...she's the toughest to call. I think part of the "problem" is that she takes her orders to be an observer VERY literally - and therefore has no "stake" in "what" Haruhi will do, and whether or not to do something about it. She ends up following Kyon's orders ...well...why? ...

Because certainly Yuki DOES end up doing many pro-active things - kind of along the same lines as Ritsuko wanted to do - not as extreme, not "I'll murder Kyon and see what Haruhi does" - but blocking the Mikuru Beam, opening the Door in "Closed Circle" when Kyon recinds Haruhi's orders... is Yuki NOT thereby over-reaching - stepping outside the bounds of simple "observation" -- with the only difference being that she is following Kyon's will and not her own?

Then again - the Uber Intelligence did note - or at least Yuki noted when talking to Kyon - that he (Kyon) was the unknown factor in Haruhi's entourage...

In any case...

I dunno...I dunno about Mikuru...first - I guess I haven't watched enough anime to see her character type being used only as wall paper. I mean..all the lolis I've seen in anime were also strong characters (Minmey, Nia...ok...my list is very small...) ... Mikuru is also a strong character... she's very determined to perform her role - which she shows numerous times. It's just her fear gets the better of her often...

Pete

THIS IS NOT AN ACCIDENTAL DOUBLE POST!! REALLY!! YOU JUST DRANK TOO MUCH AND ARE SEEING DOUBLE!! REALLY!! SERIOUSLY!! AND IF YOU ARE SAYING "BUT I HAVEN'T BEEN DRINKING" THEN THAT JUST MEANS YOU'RE A FCUKING ALCOHOLIC AND YOU NEED HELP MAN!! STEP ONE IS TO ADMIT IT!! PUT DOWN THE BOTTLE !! HELP IS OUT THERE!

Edited February 23, 2010 by VFTF1

[Bri]

As to Mikuru..weeeeeeeeelllllllll...........

a) you forget Koizumi's warning about Mikuru. True, he MIGHT have been lying - but notice how Kyon has two "tempters" - Mikuru and Koizumi always vie for his favor. Mikuru uses sex appeal (albeit she seems to do it totally unwittingly) while Koizumi TRIES to use sex appeal ("Too close! Your face is too close!") which constantly fails to impress the not-gay Kyon, so Koizumi is "forced" to use reason - and keeps having discussions with Kyon.

Koizumi's exposition on the true nature of Mikuru is pretty radical - but I wonder to what extent it's true?

In Closed Circle Kyon says he trusts Koizumi least of all - but look at Kyon's actions? Kyon constantly trusts Koizumi in action....or...so it seems...in Sighs he certainly does.

Yuki on the other hand...she's the toughest to call. I think part of the "problem" is that she takes her orders to be an observer VERY literally - and therefore has no "stake" in "what" Haruhi will do, and whether or not to do something about it. She ends up following Kyon's orders ...well...why? ...

Because certainly Yuki DOES end up doing many pro-active things - kind of along the same lines as Ritsuko wanted to do - not as extreme, not "I'll murder Kyon and see what Haruhi does" - but blocking the Mikuru Beam, opening the Door in "Closed Circle" when Kyon recinds Haruhi's orders... is Yuki NOT thereby over-reaching - stepping outside the bounds of simple "observation" -- with the only difference being that she is following Kyon's will and not her own?

Then again - the Uber Intelligence did note - or at least Yuki noted when talking to Kyon - that he (Kyon) was the unknown factor in Haruhi's entourage...

In any case...

I dunno...I dunno about Mikuru...first - I guess I haven't watched enough anime to see her character type being used only as wall paper. I mean..all the lolis I've seen in anime were also strong characters (Minmey, Nia...ok...my list is very small...) ... Mikuru is also a strong character... she's very determined to perform her role - which she shows numerous times. It's just her fear gets the better of her often...

Pete

I agree the whole SOS-dan tries to affect Haruhi trough Kyon. Mikuru is set up as a temptation but again maybe only enough to keep Haruhi jealous and focussed on Kyon. Koizumi is a rival (of sort) for Haruhis affection but only enough to keep Kyon jealous ( I'm sure the chemistry between the two is mostly to keep the yaoi/Boys Love fans happy, Kyon x koizumi is a fan favourite coupling in doujinshi). Not sure, it seems both are there to actually make sure Haruhi and Kyon stay together, maybe the distrust by their revalations is intentional. Yuki is pretty much Kyons bodyguard, their relationship seems somewhat platonic, seems like the SOS-dan is actually trying to keep/get them together.

This anime pokes fun at a lot of anime stereotypes. Haruhi and Kyon have a gender switch of the traditional pattern in romantic comedies . Haruhi is the exentric and somewhat dense lead character instead of a male. Kyon is a straight tsundere, normally a female role. Koizumi is probably more capable then Kyon in everyway but he is not the ""one". Yuki is everything but the vulnerable nerd. Mikuru is the complete deconstruction of the clumsy spineless moe girl with a knack for domestic chores. I'm not entirely sure is she is as helpless as she appears, especially since I suspect Tsuruyato be of the same faction as Mikuru. To be fair the whole anime takes anime genres and twists them into something else, it's all part of the charm.

[VFTF1]

I'm sure the chemistry between the two is mostly to keep the yaoi/Boys Love fans happy, Kyon x koizumi is a fan favourite coupling in doujinshi

I didn't know this. Also, I have heard of Yaoi, but I take it that it's gay then - or am I misunderstanding? In any event, Kyon seems to react to Koizumi's "breach of personal space" with the same degree of rage as Kamina reacted to Ron in Gurren Lagann - albeit Kyon doesn't have a katana handy...

. Koizumi is a rival (of sort) for Haruhis affection but only enough to keep Kyon jealous

Here I kind of disagree - that is... I never got the impression that Haruhi is erotically interested in Koizumi - no matter what he does. The only rivalry here is one of affection in a non-erotic sense. Haruhi praises Koizumi and makes him vice-brigade chief, which seems to aggrivate Kyon - but I don't think it makes him jealous. I think Kyon was indignant that a non-thinking, dependent yes-man drone became vice-chief while Haruhi usually either ignored what Kyon had to say or would cut it to tell him to shut up and that he was generally wrong. That is to say - I think the rivalry between them is more for Haruhi's soul than for her body. Kyon doesn't think it's right for Haruhi to be surrounded by yes-men who hide the truth from her and prevent her from growing as a human being. Koizumi acts out of fear that "God" will destroy the world unless he's exceedingly nice to her, and always says yes to everything she proposes. Also, the rivalry between the two is one of normality vs supernaturalism in terms of how they view reality. Whenever Haruhi proposes something, Kyon looks at it from the point of view of whether or not the idea has merit on the face of it, while Koizumi seeks out some underlying supernatural dimmension (like when Haruhi decided to enter them into a baseball contest, which Kyon thought was dumb, but Koizumi said it beat looking for aliens)...

I really don't get the feeling that there's much sexual competition between the two lead males. Koizumi seems like Haruhi wouldn't even be his type. He's probably got a girlfriend in the Organization - maybe the Maid?

I suspect Tsuruyato be of the same faction as Mikuru.

She is indeed a mystery, and that 1 scene in season 2 where she looks like she's pulling the strings that Mikuru is on makes me wonder...

However - the TRUE reveal of Tsuruya-san's powers can be seen in the anime Haruhi-chan. Her powers are more like those of Koizumi/Esper/Witches than time travel.

Pete

[Bri]

I didn't know this. Also, I have heard of Yaoi, but I take it that it's gay then - or am I misunderstanding? In any event, Kyon seems to react to Koizumi's "breach of personal space" with the same degree of rage as Kamina reacted to Ron in Gurren Lagann - albeit Kyon doesn't have a katana handy...

Sort of, boys love or yaoi is aimed at (Japanese) women, it's a genre revolving around romance between males. Pretty much like a lesbian fantasy for males, usually less sexual and more romance focussed.

Here I kind of disagree - that is... I never got the impression that Haruhi is erotically interested in Koizumi - no matter what he does. The only rivalry here is one of affection in a non-erotic sense. Haruhi praises Koizumi and makes him vice-brigade chief, which seems to aggrivate Kyon - but I don't think it makes him jealous. I think Kyon was indignant that a non-thinking, dependent yes-man drone became vice-chief while Haruhi usually either ignored what Kyon had to say or would cut it to tell him to shut up and that he was generally wrong. That is to say - I think the rivalry between them is more for Haruhi's soul than for her body. Kyon doesn't think it's right for Haruhi to be surrounded by yes-men who hide the truth from her and prevent her from growing as a human being. Koizumi acts out of fear that "God" will destroy the world unless he's exceedingly nice to her, and always says yes to everything she proposes. Also, the rivalry between the two is one of normality vs supernaturalism in terms of how they view reality. Whenever Haruhi proposes something, Kyon looks at it from the point of view of whether or not the idea has merit on the face of it, while Koizumi seeks out some underlying supernatural dimmension (like when Haruhi decided to enter them into a baseball contest, which Kyon thought was dumb, but Koizumi said it beat looking for aliens)...

Oh indeed, Haruhi isn't interested in Koizumi at all. He is nothing more to her then a second officer. But affection does not have to be romantic to create jealousy. I don't think it's just indignance at selecting Koizumi as second in command, I'm sure Kyon wanted to be asked, as he was the first member. Just look at how Kyon reacts when Koizumi teases him that he might tell Haruhi that he loves her when Kyon refuses to do so in E8. Koizumi is a yes man for sure, but he simply likes Haruhi as a person while Kyon does not even dare to admit that. Remember that Kyon is a tsundere, petty jealousy is their stock and trade

[VFTF1]

Hm... I am intrigued by these character archetypes... I have heard Asuka Langley described as a Tsundere.... she was also jealous - but she's so intense, while Kyon is very passive, it's kind of like they have the same view of reality - but one is mellow about it while the other is a psychological wreck...

At the risk of making myself look like a total newbie - I'd like to get this straight. Can someone please give me

a) The literal Japanese definition of the word

b) The general anime definition in every day usage

1. Tsundare (really jealous person??)

2. Bishojou (beautiful hot babe?)

3. Yaoi (Male romantic love that is not necessarily purely erotic, but not philas either? [and no, I refuse to call it "platonic" - juxtaposing "platonic" love against erotic love is completely wrong IMO and has entered into general usage but the people who use it have never read Plato, don't understand Plato's concept of friendship, and don't understand that the proper juxtaposition to erotic love should just be philas IMO...umm...but...getting kind of beside myself...)

4. anything else??

Sort of, boys love or yaoi is aimed at (Japanese) women, it's a genre revolving around romance between males. Pretty much like a lesbian fantasy for males, usually less sexual and more romance focussed.

Once again - thank you for that explanation. This makes sense now because I've generally noticed that young girls are into Yaoi - I guess it makes sense that men have lesbian fantasies so girls have gay or semi-gay fantasies - but still... I didn't know that's what Yaoi was.

Would Roy and Hikaru be considered "Old School" Yaoi? Anime back then was not as "self-conscious" - or so it seems - and lots of these archetypes seem to be gleened off of earlier anime where they existed sub-consciously, whereas now they are consciously exploited.

Koizumi is a yes man for sure, but he simply likes Haruhi as a person while Kyon does not even dare to admit that.

Again...I kind of disagree...although "disagree" is the wrong word. I find myself unable to get caught up in some of your broader generalizations - like this one...

Here's why:

For me, we learn the most important thing about Kyon in his opening lines in the first part of the Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya (so episode 2), where he tells us that he always wanted things like aliens, super robots and secret organizations to exist, but then he matured and accepted the physical laws of the universe, although he also held on to his beliefs despite this maturing.

In other words - he "knew" that these things didn't exist, but he still believed them - and he found himself doing this calmly - he even defined maturity as being able to hold this kind of view of reality - where on the one hand you accept the limits of the real world, but on the other you don't let go of your deepest beliefs.

It's this comportment towards existence that, for instance, allows Kyon to maintain blase passivity and even boredom in the face of the various monsters and sub-space (or whatever it's called) dimmensions and Ritsuko trying to kill him or Yuki getting impaled in front of his eyes. It's the source of his sarcastic way of being. Not to say he wasn't scared when Ritsuko came at him with a knife - but as soon as she "converted" the room into a computer graphics center, Kyon started to JOKE instead of just being scared that another person was coming at him with a knife. And he was more in awe of Yuki's impalement (because she immediately spoke to calm him) than freaked.

In any case - my point here is that I don't think Kyon actually likes Haruhi as a person. I think he simply regards her as a person, in contradistinction to Koizumi, for whom she is a dangerous fickle God. Kyon certainly finds Haruhi attractive - but for some reason (and I can't for the life of me figure out the reason) - Kyon has an EXCELLENT pathos of distance towards women.

Kyon recognizes babes and is attracted to them - but he totally doesn't let girls know that their physical beauty casts a spell over him.

See - the thing with women is that there are two contradictory things that drive them:

A) The need for men to adore and worship their sexual beauty

B) The need for men to be strong and independent.

But when a man adores and worships a woman's sexual beauty - he is NOT strong. The more he adores and worships a woman's sexual beauty - the more he shows the woman that he is WEAK - that he can be easily influenced and bamboozled by tits and ass.

This paradoxically drives the woman away - even though she wants and expects to be adored - she will also push the man away the more fawning he becomes because it is a sign of his weakness.

Kyon displays NONE of this. Not even towards Mikuru - for whom he exhibits extreme self control, as he does with all other girls.

The only girl with whom he allows himself to be weak is...Yuki!

Yes - Yuki - because he lets slip "I never was a glasses man anyways" - he catches himself immedietly, and Yuki is too dense to understand - and therefore the "show of weakness" has no negative effect on her view of Kyon's manliness.

This is, by the way, why Yuki is the best girl. She is beautiful, but hides it (therefore few men adore her), and the guy lucky enough to see her sexual beauty doesn't have to worry about her getting aggravated if he goes all weak and wobbly in the knees for her (mainly because she's not really a woman, but a Data Interface Being or whatever).

Aaanyways...

This is a long way of saying that Kyon isn't - in my opinion - in love with or even attracted to Haruhi. He calls her Bishojou - but so what? He never ACTS like it matters to him, and he's actually often approached by beautiful girls. Remember when he was walking up the hill to school and Ritsuko stopped him, twirled around, gave him a smile and told him she had to hurry ahead to do some chore?

Ladies like Kyon because of his calm. He's not only physicall attractive - but he has a character which draws women towards him because he is passive about their sexual beauty.

Haruhi simply notes that Kyon's a bit LESS passive about Mikuru's sexual beauty than he is about her - and this pisses her off all the more so, because given how demure Kyon is about sexual attraction - the fact that he lets go of himself a little bit more when Mikuru is around drives Haruhi insane...

But this doesn't mean Kyon loves her - or likes her. He kisses her partially because of Mikuru's "Snow White" warning and because he realizes the situation they're in.

Besides - he kept telling Haruhi to find a nice guy and go to the movies with him instead of searching for aliens in a high school.

So - the kiss was kind of a natural follow up to that - it was a more romantic and less crude version of Al Pacino's words to Michelle Pfiefer in Scarface "What's your problem...you got a problem cause you got beautiful body...beautiful legs...beautiful tits...all these guys in love with you...only you got a look in your eye like you haven't been fcuked in a month!"

That's basically what Kyon "said" to Haruhi in the kiss.

Haruhi herself, in one episode, admited she had "needs" and tightened her legs just in case we didn't get the allusion - but her view of love is that it's a pure biological/chemical phenomena and that there's no reason to let it overcome your reason - or...HER reason...what Koizumi would call her "common sense"...which just happens to dictate that one needs to search for aliens, espers and hope for murders during summer vacation...

I guess what it boils down to is this:

Kyon is WAY too mature for his "age" - it's like...either he's got a really good father who has taught him a lot about women, or he's just a natural born manly man who can handle babes.

But I know that it took me a loooong time to learn how to deal with beautiful women - and here Kyon's doing it like a pro as a JUNIOR in HIGH SCHOOL.

Kyon's character is the most intriguing one out of them all for this reason.

Pete

[Marzan]

I guess what it boils down to is this:

Kyon is WAY too mature for his "age" - it's like...either he's got a really good father who has taught him a lot about women, or he's just a natural born manly man who can handle babes.

But I know that it took me a loooong time to learn how to deal with beautiful women - and here Kyon's doing it like a pro as a JUNIOR in HIGH SCHOOL.

Kyon's character is the most intriguing one out of them all for this reason.

Pete

Kyon does seem to let the man upstairs make the decisions for him instead of the man downstairs.

But at the the end of the day can't it just boil down to him not really being attracted to girls who are anything but "normal"? I mean as fascinating as the three ladies are, they all represent too much of a challenge if you wanted to date them. A deity, a time-traveller and an artificial life form are not exactly an easy proposition, specially for someone as demanding as Kyon.

[VFTF1]

I mean as fascinating as the three ladies are, they all represent too much of a challenge if you wanted to date them.

Virtu tentamine Guadet!

Pete

[Bri]

Hm... I am intrigued by these character archetypes... I have heard Asuka Langley described as a Tsundere.... she was also jealous - but she's so intense, while Kyon is very passive, it's kind of like they have the same view of reality - but one is mellow about it while the other is a psychological wreck...

At the risk of making myself look like a total newbie - I'd like to get this straight. Can someone please give me

a) The literal Japanese definition of the word

b) The general anime definition in every day usage

1. Tsundare (really jealous person??)

You'd probably be better of asking Gubaba for the exact translations but in anime: Tsundere is a contraction of two states of mind. tsun tsun, which is something like arrogant, aloof, distant and dere dere which is caring, shy, loving mode. Either trait can be dominant though in anime characters with a dominant tsun tsun side tend to be more common. The key feature is that a tsundere due to some kind of trigger can snap and go from one mood to the other very fast. Often these characters are coupled with flawed heros, jerks that in the end aren't bad guys at all. An example of this is Micheal and Klan from Macross Frontier.

Would Roy and Hikaru be considered "Old School" Yaoi? Anime back then was not as "self-conscious" - or so it seems - and lots of these archetypes seem to be gleened off of earlier anime where they existed sub-consciously, whereas now they are consciously exploited.

I don't think so. While sempai junior relationships are common, Roy and Hikaru seem more a big brother- little brother relationship played up straight. Michael and Alto most definetely are fujoshi bait.

[...]

This is a long way of saying that Kyon isn't - in my opinion - in love with or even attracted to Haruhi. He calls her Bishojou - but so what? He never ACTS like it matters to him, and he's actually often approached by beautiful girls. Remember when he was walking up the hill to school and Ritsuko stopped him, twirled around, gave him a smile and told him she had to hurry ahead to do some chore?

Ladies like Kyon because of his calm. He's not only physicall attractive - but he has a character which draws women towards him because he is passive about their sexual beauty.

Haruhi simply notes that Kyon's a bit LESS passive about Mikuru's sexual beauty than he is about her - and this pisses her off all the more so, because given how demure Kyon is about sexual attraction - the fact that he lets go of himself a little bit more when Mikuru is around drives Haruhi insane...

But this doesn't mean Kyon loves her - or likes her. He kisses her partially because of Mikuru's "Snow White" warning and because he realizes the situation they're in.

Besides - he kept telling Haruhi to find a nice guy and go to the movies with him instead of searching for aliens in a high school.

Though it's open to interpretation, I would have to disagree here. I think this whole anime revolves around Haruhi and Kyon slowly getting together and the rest of the cast are there to facilitate this. As once discussed in NGE, they have a hedge hog dilema, both sides are drawn to eachother but can't really lower their armor out of fear for being hurt. Haruhi even calls love a disease at the start.

I think there are plenty of hints around that Kyon cares but doesn't want to admit it. Like complimenting her on her pony tail, defending her against Taniguchis remarks and the jealous reaction on Koizumis taunts and walking her home in someday in the rain. One thing I enjoy it that both are strongwilled individuals and neither is prepared to give in easily. Mikuru is often caught in the cross fire as Kyon shows his physical attraction openly which annoys Haruhi, while Haruhi using Mikuru as a plaything agrevates Kyon to Haruhis amusement.

Unconditional love is a *really* annoying trait in a lot of romance anime where the girl has loved the male protaganist since forever and he is the center of her universe often without him even knowing. Without risk there is no gain.

So - the kiss was kind of a natural follow up to that - it was a more romantic and less crude version of Al Pacino's words to Michelle Pfiefer in Scarface "What's your problem...you got a problem cause you got beautiful body...beautiful legs...beautiful tits...all these guys in love with you...only you got a look in your eye like you haven't been fcuked in a month!"

That's basically what Kyon "said" to Haruhi in the kiss.

Haruhi herself, in one episode, admited she had "needs" and tightened her legs just in case we didn't get the allusion - but her view of love is that it's a pure biological/chemical phenomena and that there's no reason to let it overcome your reason - or...HER reason...what Koizumi would call her "common sense"...which just happens to dictate that one needs to search for aliens, espers and hope for murders during summer vacation...

I guess what it boils down to is this:

Kyon is WAY too mature for his "age" - it's like...either he's got a really good father who has taught him a lot about women, or he's just a natural born manly man who can handle babes.

But I know that it took me a loooong time to learn how to deal with beautiful women - and here Kyon's doing it like a pro as a JUNIOR in HIGH SCHOOL.

Kyon's character is the most intriguing one out of them all for this reason.

heh, nicely said, but I would get that impression from say nekki Basara who has that natural kind of detachement. I think Kyon is struggeling a bit to much with his own place in events and purpose in life to have that kind of confidence. Though we're probably way past over-analyzing these characters already.

Edited February 23, 2010 by Bri

[VFTF1]

Thanks for explaining tsundere - that's very interesting.

As to Kyon and Haruhi and whether it's love...well... the "problem" here is that they're in high school yet they show a level of maturity that is necessarily relavent in a situation where the fate of the universe is at stake. In this sense, all of them are tsundare insofar as they play two roles - and actually it's hard to tell which role is dominant.

But the point is... let me put it this way: Can you imagine them graduating and going their seperate ways as is the case with 99.99% of people who go to high school? Because I can't.

Heck - this isn't even "90210" type high school drama - despite the presence of romance - the high school is nothing more than a social setting. But ALL of them are mature beyond their years. This is easily explained in regard to Koizumi (part of a secret Esper organization), Mikuru (time traveler being overseen by her future adult, and therefore mature self), and Yuki (Data Interface Being)... but Kyon? ... where did his maturity come from?

And for that matter...where did Haruhi's?

I guess what I'm getting at is that the setting here is a pure abstraction. I don't see how the high school setting in any way shape or form has anything to really DO with high school.

I guess when I watch this anime - I just see the heros acting in a realm that happens to look like a high school and a nice town in Japan...but really - you have to kind of think of it as Yuki does: it's an alien planet.

If you look at the matter from Yuki's point of view - you disabuse yourself of the illusion that the context matters - and you see the struggle as a kind of cosmic drama....

I guess we'll see how it plays out... and yes - you'e right - it is open to interpretation. But I just can't see the anime as being about Kyon and Haruhi's love - I don't see them as in love. I think Kyon loves Mikuru deep in his heart, and would prefer being with Yuki. Haruhi is just a girl that he'd sleep with. That's pretty much how I see this running down.

Now - from my own experience, I do agree that strangely enough the girl you love deepest in your heart turns out to be evil (per Koizumi's warning), the girl you'd prefer being with turns out being non-human, and the girl you wouldn't think of as anything more than a fun sexual toy for a one night stand ends up being the love of your life (glad my girlfriend isn't reading this - but even if she did - she knows that's kind of how our relationship started...) ...

So - ok - in THAT sense...I can see Kyon and Haruhi getting together...kind of by default... But Mikuru would really have to prove to be as Koizumi warned...and Yuki would have to tragically disintergrate into little data particles...

I dunno...

At some point - if this story kept on going...it would have to evolve beyond the high school...

Now - the only part of the story that DOESN'T take place in the high school setting that's shown to us is:

A) Little Haruhi blackmailing time-traveling Kyon to help her or she'll report him to the cops as Echi

B) Little Haruhi destroying the world after realizing her insignificance during a baseball game

I guess I need to see the Dissapearance movie. I'm sure it clears up a LOT of this stuff.

When's THAT coming on DVD??

Pete

[JB0]

As to Mikuru..weeeeeeeeelllllllll...........

a) you forget Koizumi's warning about Mikuru. True, he MIGHT have been lying - but notice how Kyon has two "tempters" - Mikuru and Koizumi always vie for his favor. Mikuru uses sex appeal (albeit she seems to do it totally unwittingly) while Koizumi TRIES to use sex appeal ("Too close! Your face is too close!") which constantly fails to impress the not-gay Kyon, so Koizumi is "forced" to use reason - and keeps having discussions with Kyon.

Koizumi's exposition on the true nature of Mikuru is pretty radical - but I wonder to what extent it's true?

In Closed Circle Kyon says he trusts Koizumi least of all - but look at Kyon's actions? Kyon constantly trusts Koizumi in action....or...so it seems...in Sighs he certainly does.

Yuki on the other hand...she's the toughest to call. I think part of the "problem" is that she takes her orders to be an observer VERY literally - and therefore has no "stake" in "what" Haruhi will do, and whether or not to do something about it. She ends up following Kyon's orders ...well...why? ...

Because certainly Yuki DOES end up doing many pro-active things - kind of along the same lines as Ritsuko wanted to do - not as extreme, not "I'll murder Kyon and see what Haruhi does" - but blocking the Mikuru Beam, opening the Door in "Closed Circle" when Kyon recinds Haruhi's orders... is Yuki NOT thereby over-reaching - stepping outside the bounds of simple "observation" -- with the only difference being that she is following Kyon's will and not her own?

Huh... I think that once you're through with the print stuff, Mikuru's the only member of the brigade that HASN'T pledged allegiance to the Brigade or Kyon above their superiors, actually.

Though Yuki's faction is more of a "maintain the status quo" branch. Blocking Kyon's death would seem to be in keeping with that. Much like Koizumi's bosses, Yuki's would rather not poke the wasp's nest to see what happens.

I think the most independent she's been so far is actually Day of Sagittarius. She traced the cheat codes, hacked the Computer Club's PCs, patched the games while running to disable the cheats(and booby-trap them in print!), all on her own initiative. Because she wanted to win.

And after that, she actually starts showing up in the computer club from time to time. Just to play around.

...

Well, it's her most independent moment if you ignore Disappearance, anyways...

Let's just say Yuki is with the rest of the Brigade in that she trusts Kyon.

Even Haruhi, despite placing Koizumi in the vice-chief's role.

THIS IS NOT AN ACCIDENTAL DOUBLE POST!! REALLY!! YOU JUST DRANK TOO MUCH AND ARE SEEING DOUBLE!! REALLY!! SERIOUSLY!! AND IF YOU ARE SAYING "BUT I HAVEN'T BEEN DRINKING" THEN THAT JUST MEANS YOU'RE A FCUKING ALCOHOLIC AND YOU NEED HELP MAN!! STEP ONE IS TO ADMIT IT!! PUT DOWN THE BOTTLE !! HELP IS OUT THERE!

Awww, man... and I thought the bottle was my friend.

Edited February 24, 2010 by JB0

[Marzan]

Virtu tentamine Guadet!

Pete

Virtue rejoices in the challenge?

[VFTF1]

Good job!

Pete

[Bri]

And here we go, the 10th novel ariving shortly in late april. Nothing to soon, as we need more content for future Haruhi anime.

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2010-...-in-the-sneaker

Edited February 24, 2010 by Bri

[ly000001]

And here we go, the 10th novel ariving shortly in late april. Nothing to soon, as we need more content for future Haruhi anime.

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2010-...-in-the-sneaker

Aren't they talking about just the preview being published in The Sneaker on Apr. 30, not the full novel (at least from what I can read in the article's accompanying picture)?

[Bri]

Yep, your absolutely right. Skimmed over it too fast.

[Noriko Takaya]

The Endless Eight is kicking my ass. Almost done.

[Marzan]

Aren't they talking about just the preview being published in The Sneaker on Apr. 30, not the full novel (at least from what I can read in the article's accompanying picture)?

That's also what I gather from reading the story on ANN. It might be a while before we get the rest.

Does anyone know if this novel will be the finale to Haruhi Suzumiya or just another instalment?

[Noriko Takaya]

Well, I finally finished all of Haruhi Suzumiya, including the tedious "Endless Eight", which I really didn't mind. If I didn't have any foreknowledge of it I would have freaked, but I was satisfied. Now all that remains is finding the movie somewhere.

[Marzan]

Well, I finally finished all of Haruhi Suzumiya, including the tedious "Endless Eight", which I really didn't mind. If I didn't have any foreknowledge of it I would have freaked, but I was satisfied. Now all that remains is finding the movie somewhere.

Been looking for it for a while now, but all I get are dead ends and links that don't work. Let us know if you get any luckier...

[Bri]

You won't see any decent quality fansub of the movie until the DVD/BR gets released and that won't happen for another 4-5 months at least. The Haruhi movie is doing extremely well in Japan (for an anime) and it has been announced that it will be shown in more then the 24 cinemas originally planned. Probably delaying the DVD release.

Any torrents you are going to find in the mean time will either be fakes or camrips.

[Marzan]

You won't see any decent quality fansub of the movie until the DVD/BR gets released and that won't happen for another 4-5 months at least. The Haruhi movie is doing extremely well in Japan (for an anime) and it has been announced that it will be shown in more then the 24 cinemas originally planned. Probably delaying the DVD release.

Any torrents you are going to find in the mean time will either be fakes or camrips.

And I really don't like those so I'll just have to be patient and wait.

Thanks for the info.

[Marzan]

The Endless Eight is kicking my ass. Almost done.

Finally watching it, and as a Macross fan I am absolutely delighted at the Kakizaki/Itano circus reference! Wonderful stuff!

[Noriko Takaya]

Okay! Watch this video on YouTube: Haruhi Suzumiya, Actor Toma Ikuta to Appear in Gum Ad. Breath turns girls into Haruhi characters.