The Ass-2 Or Tou Salaam May Not Exist

[Goth Kitty 22]

I submit that only one detailed, Macross type, Supervision Army Gunboat design exists on paper. The blocky one seen in the first episode should be considered the TV series version.

However, various details on the damaged ship may show that a beefed up variant of the Alien Star Ship-1 exists. The engines are wider but do not seem to be rotated ninety degrees. There is an extended structure with long antennas between the engines. There is a detached piece which can't be seen in the underside drawing.

The model, if it is one, chooses to fuse the cannons, as well as the engines.

This proves that the Tou Salaam reconstruction is inaccurate.

[briscojr84]

I submit that only one detailed, Macross type, Supervision Army Gunboat design exists on paper.  The blocky one seen in the first episode should be considered the TV series version.

However, various details on the damaged ship may show that a beefed up variant of the Alien Star Ship-1 exists.  The engines are wider but do not seem to be rotated ninety degrees.  There is an extended structure with long antennas between the engines.  There is a detached piece which can't be seen in the underside drawing.

The model, if it is one, chooses to fuse the cannons, as well as the engines.

This proves that the Tou Salaam reconstruction is inaccurate.

388663[/snapback]

The Tou Salaam is a theoretical design put out by the URRG and is not canon by no means, it was just a way to explain the second ASS. it was never meant to be anything but a fan based item.

So really there is no reason to debunk it.

[Nied]

The TV version of ASS-1 (essentially identical to the re-built Macross but without a bridge module) has been retconned into the design you show above (which really isn't that bad considering that there's only one shot where it's clear that the ASS-1 is identical to the Macross). While you do a good job of pointing out the similarities to the ASS-1 I'm inclined to believe that the ship Vrlitwhai and crew encountered is a different class (certainly the engines appear to be different).

[Noyhauser]

The TV version of ASS-1 (essentially identical to the re-built Macross but without a bridge module) has been retconned into the design you show above (which really isn't that bad considering that there's only one shot where it's clear that the ASS-1 is identical to the Macross).  While you do a good job of pointing out the similarities to the ASS-1 I'm inclined to believe that the ship Vrlitwhai and crew encountered is a different class (certainly the engines appear to be different).

388719[/snapback]

I'm inclined to agree with nied. It looks pretty obvious to me that the ASS-2 splits height wise to fire its main gun (like other Zent ships) while the other ASS-1 picture splits widthwise (like the SDF-1). Also wasn't there a Meltrandi derivative put foward as well?

A completely spurious question that has always bugged me... what sort of personal attack craft does the supervision army use?

[Nied]

I'm inclined to agree with nied. It looks pretty obvious to me that the ASS-2 splits height wise to fire its main gun (like other Zent ships) while the other ASS-1 picture splits widthwise (like the SDF-1). Also wasn't there a Meltrandi derivative put foward as well?

A completely spurious question that has always bugged me... what sort of personal attack craft does the supervision army use?

388721[/snapback]

The Meltrandi version is from the DYRL continuity, where the ASS-1 is an early model gunboat. It's been theorized that this ship class exists in the official continuity as a design fielded by one of the factions of the stellar republic, and that the SA design is actually a re-modeled version of it (somewhat similar to how the Varauta mecha are re-modeled VF- and VA-14s).

[Ginrai]

The reason RRG needs debunking is because everyone, especially Robotech fans, think it's some kind of official source and insist on using their bullshit, completely imaginary names, like Tou Salaam. That irritates me to to no end.

[JB0]

I always assumed the major diffrences between the 2 vessels were because the ASS2 was a twisted and mangled wreckage.

[briscojr84]

The reason RRG needs debunking is because everyone, especially Robotech fans, think it's some kind of official source and insist on using their bullshit, completely imaginary names, like Tou Salaam. That irritates me to to no end.

388818[/snapback]

For crying out loud settle down, trying to debunk it only draws more attention to it, don't act like some of the Robotech fans who rabidly hate macross, and be a macross fan that rabidly hates Robotech, act the better person.

[Boxer]

How can Robotech fans rabidly hate macross? It's where their precious brainchild came from! Without Macross there would be no robotech! And besides, because they raise so much of a stink we'll never see quality Macross games!

Anyway, It's a shame we only see a passing glimpse of the ASS-2 wreakage- so much that I have to wonder why it was in the story at all. A hook to a possible sequel? A plotline never followed? To save the threat, perhaps this question can be answered.

AS to the design itself, of course we should throw out the RT RPG's fansite, as most of it is probably bunk anyway. From here it looks as if the intact ASS-2 was meant to open up like a Meltran gunboat, with the middle section seperating/lowering as well as the booms splitting. Otherwise, like the ASS-1, it appears like a supervision gunboat.

I think the prototucutres/Supervision might have used fighters and craft of thier own... One could ask nanashi, since he seems to know about unusual and rarely seen machines.

[azrael]

How can Robotech fans rabidly hate macross? It's where their precious brainchild came from! Without Macross there would be no robotech! And besides, because they raise so much of a stink we'll never see quality Macross games!

Anyway, It's a shame we only see a passing glimpse of the ASS-2 wreakage- so much that I have to wonder why it was in the story at all. A hook to a possible sequel? A plotline never followed? To save the threat, perhaps this question can be answered.

388889[/snapback]

The message we get from ASS-2 is humans and the Zentradi are not the only ones out there in space. Considering the wreak was a recent wreak, this only serves to reinforce the fact that they need the factory satellite and they need to pick up the pace a bit.

[mikeszekely]

But it's still an idea that was never really developed. I mean, they happened upon a recent wreck, and we know from the beginning of Macross that there are Zentraedi fleets out hunting for remnants of the Supervision Army... yet for the next 45 years, all they come across is the Protodeviln sealed on Varauta 4, despite a mass exodus of humankind to colonize the galaxy?

[Boxer]

How can Robotech fans rabidly hate macross? It's where their precious brainchild came from! Without Macross there would be no robotech! And besides, because they raise so much of a stink we'll never see quality Macross games!

Anyway, It's a shame we only see a passing glimpse of the ASS-2 wreakage- so much that I have to wonder why it was in the story at all. A hook to a possible sequel? A plotline never followed? To save the threat, perhaps this question can be answered.

388889[/snapback]

The message we get from ASS-2 is humans and the Zentradi are not the only ones out there in space. Considering the wreak was a recent wreak, this only serves to reinforce the fact that they need the factory satellite and they need to pick up the pace a bit.

388905[/snapback]

Not much of a message if they just pass it up to go capture the factory sattelite. I mean, they could have done the same thing with asking Vrlitwhai to recount the reason why he was tracking the ASS-1 in the firstplace, rather than show us a wreak.

I mean, in the petty sense, the ASS-2 wasn't even market material because it was a wreak. And nothing official anywhere says what becomes of it? The only thing I know about it's fate was from a Macross RPG site saying it was lost forever, even when a survey party returned to the location.

[jenius]

I mean, in the petty sense, the ASS-2 wasn't even market material because it was a wreak. And nothing official anywhere says what becomes of it? The only thing I know about it's fate was from a Macross RPG site saying it was lost forever, even when a survey party returned to the location.

I'm not a fan of the RPGs for anything other than toilet reading material but I seem to recall the idea that the wreck was probably booby-trapped and it would just fold somewhere... chill for a decade or whatever, then fold somewhere else. The hopes were that it would eventually find itself somewhere where it would be investigated and the investigators could then be enslaved. Who knows though, that could all just be some crazy conclusion I drew.

[azrael]

Remember, it could have been booby trapped, which is why they didn't want to risk it. If ASS-1 was set to override any system if discovered, who knows what may have been set for ASS-2. Yes, it wasn't developed, but it left the door open to other stories that can still be revisited. It left the door open for the Protodeviln and who knows what else. Space is vast, so it still may come about.

[Ginrai]

For crying out loud settle down, trying to debunk it only draws more attention to it, don't act like some of the Robotech fans who rabidly hate macross, and be a macross fan that rabidly hates Robotech, act the better person.

388841[/snapback]

You're misintrepreting me. I am not a rabid Macross fan who hates Robotech. I hate the RRG and their bullshit which people are constantly trying to pass off as reliable information. There are Robotech DVDs sitting next to my Macross DVDs, I have all of the Robotech novels, and a lot of the comics, and Robotech and Macross toys, blah blah. I take anything I can get, under either name.

I just hate the RRG, and this goes back 10 years or more with Peter Walker's poo on the Robotech Mailing List. They make things up and people treat them like facts. It's got nothing to do with Robotech and everything to do with accuracy. Everyone calls the Sherfield (or Shrewfield) or however you want to romanize that in Southern Cross the Sylphid, which is totally wrong when you look at the kana. And they completely fabricate names (like Tou Salaam and Nous'dohl) and people use them. They can't even get Robotech right, when the go around referring to the Garland as Garland instead of MODAT 5, and then they use pre-production Megazone as imaginary variations and all this other crap.

I don't hate Robotech, I hate the misinformation the RRG spreads about both it and its source material. Fans in the know spend a lot of their time explaining to less informed fans that the RRG is wrong and just fanfic.

[briscojr84]

For crying out loud settle down, trying to debunk it only draws more attention to it, don't act like some of the Robotech fans who rabidly hate macross, and be a macross fan that rabidly hates Robotech, act the better person.

388841[/snapback]

You're misintrepreting me. I am not a rabid Macross fan who hates Robotech. I hate the RRG and their bullshit which people are constantly trying to pass off as reliable information. There are Robotech DVDs sitting next to my Macross DVDs, I have all of the Robotech novels, and a lot of the comics, and Robotech and Macross toys, blah blah. I take anything I can get, under either name.

I just hate the RRG, and this goes back 10 years or more with Peter Walker's poo on the Robotech Mailing List. They make things up and people treat them like facts. It's got nothing to do with Robotech and everything to do with accuracy. Everyone calls the Sherfield (or Shrewfield) or however you want to romanize that in Southern Cross the Sylphid, which is totally wrong when you look at the kana. And they completely fabricate names (like Tou Salaam and Nous'dohl) and people use them. They can't even get Robotech right, when the go around referring to the Garland as Garland instead of MODAT 5, and then they use pre-production Megazone as imaginary variations and all this other crap.

I don't hate Robotech, I hate the misinformation the RRG spreads about both it and its source material. Fans in the know spend a lot of their time explaining to less informed fans that the RRG is wrong and just fanfic.

388933[/snapback]

Okay Peter can be a total wanker sometimes I think even Rob's said he gets a little rabid sometimes, but the site does say Unofficial, if somebody misinterprets it as actually canon that is there own fault, heck if it wasn't for Rob's help my page wouldn't have existed in the first place, he's even mailed photocopies of stuff to me, don't blame the page just because Peter acts the jerk.

And there are a lot of Macross fans who make up information out there as well that confuse fans just as much as the URRG does, part of the problem is people taking everything as the word of god whether it is or not, most sites really need to stress the fact that alot of there information isn't canon, I've tried to stress that as much as possible myself, and I've even gone back to the shows and artbooks freeze framing things and taking a frigging fabric tape measure to recheck dimensions and make it accurate as possible.

The major problem is people being to lazy to verify info.

[Roy Focker]

Weren't the RRG also the ones that named the Orguss hyrid VF that appeared in a sight gag in Macross. Didn't they name it "Jotun" or something?

From what I remember about that group is they pass themselves off as experts but do appear to list stuff is unoffical. You just have some fans buying things as fact. That has been a common tradition among uninformed fandom. You want to learn about something. Type a few keywords on a search engine and find a well written by full of speculation essay. If its on a well produced site it gives it even more power. For some fans that is all that is needed for stuff to be canon.

Some times the authors make it clear what is made up and what comes from source material but it just takes one fan to buy every things as a fact and pass it around. Happen to me and a few here a couple of times. Where we had to say, "Um. That fiction I made up. If you go to the main index or scroll down you would see the disclaimer."

[JB0]

Remember, it could have been booby trapped, which is why they didn't want to risk it. If ASS-1 was set to override any system if discovered, who knows what may have been set for ASS-2. Yes, it wasn't developed, but it left the door open to other stories that can still be revisited. It left the door open for the Protodeviln and who knows what else. Space is vast, so it still may come about.

388921[/snapback]

And the fact that the official continuity says they couldn't find it when they went back supports the booby-trap notion.

The trap failed, so it folded somewhere else to wait and try again.

[Nied]

And the fact that the official continuity says they couldn't find it when they went back supports the booby-trap notion.

The trap failed, so it folded somewhere else to wait and try again.

389017[/snapback]

Actually JB0 I think you just fell into a trap set by one of my pet peeve sites Dave Deitrich's Macross Mecha designs. Like the RRG it fills in it's own (mostly well reasoned) BS to fill out the descriptions of most mecha and ships, but unlike the RRG it doesn't point out where it's BS and where it's official. I haven't found anything in the official continuity to support his claim that the ASS-2 was never found again (incidentally I do believe that term ASS-2 is his creation as well). If you can point me to some piece of info supporting this that's not on Dave's site I'd love to see it.

[Duke Togo]

I can't find a damned thing on the Compendium about this ship. That says alot to me.

[JB0]

And the fact that the official continuity says they couldn't find it when they went back supports the booby-trap notion.

The trap failed, so it folded somewhere else to wait and try again.

389017[/snapback]

Actually JB0 I think you just fell into a trap set by one of my pet peeve sites Dave Deitrich's Macross Mecha designs. Like the RRG it fills in it's own (mostly well reasoned) BS to fill out the descriptions of most mecha and ships, but unlike the RRG it doesn't point out where it's BS and where it's official. I haven't found anything in the official continuity to support his claim that the ASS-2 was never found again (incidentally I do believe that term ASS-2 is his creation as well). If you can point me to some piece of info supporting this that's not on Dave's site I'd love to see it.

389021[/snapback]

Well, poo.

I THOUGHT I'd seen that on the Compendium. Checked the right area of the chronology, and nothing. Mind must be playing tricks on me.

ASS-2 was just a more convenient name than "that wrecked supervision army ship in the factory satellite episode."

Logically it'd be ASS-4,750,000 or something, since we ran into a lot of alien vessels fighting the Zentradi.

[azrael]

This is all Egan has to say about the subject:

http://macross.anime.net//feedback/index.html

October

The derelict Supervision warship

    In the episode "Viva Miria," they showed something somewhat like the SDF-1 (ASS-1), the ASS-2. I'm not sure what the ship is or anything, since we viewers didn't get to see what it was. What is this ship exactly? What does it have to do with the ASS-1 with its similar design and the Supervision Army, as it was their ship? I really want to know more about this ship and why it was left out of the Saga as it could have changed everything.

Dean Seirafi

For the episode "Viva Maria," the creators say this unnamed ship is thought to be of the same size and gun destroyer type as the SDF-1 Macross. The ship is important for setting up Exsedol's narrative of the Zentradi-Supervision civil war in the following episode ("Satan's Dolls").

Just as crucially, Exsedol's suggestion that the wreck is recent and boobytrapped also drives home the threat of the ongoing battles between the two factions. This foreshadows Global's reason for spreading humanity throughout the galaxy with a colonization plan in episode 36. (Incidentally, the episode "Viva Maria" is named after Komilia Maria Fallyna Jenius as opposed to her mother Milia, and the derelict ship is never called "ASS-2" in Macross.) Macross 7 offers more details about the origins of the different factions in the galaxy.

[Boxer]

That makes sense, thanks Azrael.

Though I wish a future Macross series could use the wreakage to visit that threat of inter-factional warfare- and I don't mean the reawakened Protodevlin in M7. Surely there are pre-Macross Supervision remnants still around and not under Protodevlin control, are there? Space is vast, and I find it hard to beleive the origioanl supervision army was wiped out by M7.

Weren't the RRG also the ones that named the Orguss hyrid VF that appeared in a sight gag in Macross. Didn't they name it "Jotun" or something?

It might have been them. Leave it up to the RTers to find anything they can and extrapolate something out of it- canon or otherwise.

Though, if it were not for that injoke, I would have never discovered Orguss.

Edited April 9, 2006 by Boxer

[JB0]

That makes sense, thanks Azrael.

Though I wish a future Macross series could use the wreakage to visit that threat of inter-factional warfare- and I don't mean the reawakened Protodevlin in M7. Surely there are pre-Macross Supervision remnants still around and not under Protodevlin control, are there? Space is vast, and I find it hard to beleive the origioanl supervision army was wiped out by M7.

They may have been.

They amy also have been assimilated into the new Varuta army.

It might have been them. Leave it up to the RTers to find anything they can and extrapolate something out of it- canon or otherwise.

Are you perhaps implying the YF-1R ISN'T totally awesome?

Edited April 9, 2006 by JB0

[Boxer]

It might have been them. Leave it up to the RTers to find anything they can and extrapolate something out of it- canon or otherwise.

Are you perhaps implying the YF-1R ISN'T totally awesome?

389056[/snapback]

Given the choice between the Orguss Valk and the YF-1R, I'd rather fly the Orguss Valk

Because as we all know, dimensional travel is much more fun than having a head-mounted autocannon that never fires.

Edited April 9, 2006 by Boxer

[maxjenius81]

I personally don't find RRG that bad of an idea. I wish they would have a better system for listing what is and is not canon within the series (for a good example try: Daystrom Institute Technical Library) but the fact of the matter is that other anime have the bulk of there background material written by fans at some point (Gundam comes to mind). Filling in the gaps is a really nice idea and one that I wish wasn't as frowned upon. Though the RRG does get itself in a lot of trouble on its own, I applaud the overall concept and wish a similar site existed for Macross rather than just relying on the scant canon facts as presented by the Macross Compendium (which will always be THE canon source for facts).

[Duke Togo]

I once saw a 7 ASSed monkey.

[JB0]

It might have been them. Leave it up to the RTers to find anything they can and extrapolate something out of it- canon or otherwise.

Are you perhaps implying the YF-1R ISN'T totally awesome?

389056[/snapback]

Given the choice between the Orguss Valk and the YF-1R, I'd rather fly the Orguss Valk

Because as we all know, dimensional travel is much more fun than having a head-mounted autocannon that never fires.

389059[/snapback]

If I recall, the "YF-1R" ALSO winds up with it's head beat in by a zentradi in the anime.

I believe the Orguss Valk survives all of it's recycled stock footage encounters(though I feel really sorry for that Defender's crew...)

Edited April 9, 2006 by JB0

[Rocket Punch]

I read this thread's title as "Ass salam ma likom".

This thread is now being read by Homeland Security.

[JB0]

I read this thread's title as "Ass salam ma likom".

This thread is now being read by Homeland Security.

389115[/snapback]

What the hell is an ass salmon?

[Nied]

That makes sense, thanks Azrael.

Though I wish a future Macross series could use the wreakage to visit that threat of inter-factional warfare- and I don't mean the reawakened Protodevlin in M7. Surely there are pre-Macross Supervision remnants still around and not under Protodevlin control, are there? Space is vast, and I find it hard to beleive the origioanl supervision army was wiped out by M7.

389051[/snapback]

It's always been a pet theory of mine that the "Renegade Power Armors" (another Dave Deitrich brain bug) that Isamu fights at the beginning of Macross Plus are actually the SA's version of the Neusjadeul-Ger. The styling of that mecha certainly looks closer to the Varauta's than the Zentradi's (aside from the basic form obviously).

[Zentrandude]

I say the crew been smoking them protoculture flowers and was so high they thought they saw a ship infront of them but in reality it was empty space. They wanted to investigate the ship but the munchies came over the crew and forgot about it.

[Totoro242]

There is also this deleted footage from episode 1 of the ASS-1 after it crashed on Earth. I think it bares more resemblance to this pre-crash sketch than the rebuilt version. Most of the animation doesnt support this though, so I always assumed thats why it was cut.

[1st Border Red Devil]

Everyone calls the Sherfield (or Shrewfield) or however you want to romanize that in Southern Cross the Sylphid, which is totally wrong when you look at the kana.

As I understand it, that is because Steve Yun told them it was Sylphide, which goes along with the various names of myth for many of the mecha: Auroran, Basilisk, Garm, Salamander etc. But to Rob's credit, his SDC: Southern Cross Universe has the fighter listed as Shrewfield, with the addenda:

I'm not completely certain that 'Shrewfield' is the correct translation of the katakana shi-ru-fi-ru-do.

[Zinjo]

That makes sense, thanks Azrael.

Though I wish a future Macross series could use the wreakage to visit that threat of inter-factional warfare- and I don't mean the reawakened Protodevlin in M7. Surely there are pre-Macross Supervision remnants still around and not under Protodevlin control, are there? Space is vast, and I find it hard to beleive the origioanl supervision army was wiped out by M7.

389051[/snapback]

There is every reason to believe there are Supervision Fleets in the Galaxy.

In Mac 7, at no time are we lead to believe any Supervision ships assist the PD in the series, eventhough the PD are responsible for the formation of the SA.

We know that the population, crews and ships from the Megaroad 13 fleet had been assimilated into the new PD army on Varuata.

Most likely the SA fleets were engaged in battle with other Zentreadi fleets elsewhere in the Galaxy, completely unaware that the PD had reawakened.