Relationship Between American And Japanese

[Phalanx]

I started this topic after I was thinking about sci-fi anime. I noticed that in Japanese Sci-fi anime and video games, a vast majority of them have aircraft or spacecraft that look more sleeker and wicked than those you would find with American movies, TV shows, and games. For example with anime you have the Valks from Macross, The Vanguards from Vandread and for Japanese video games, the Vic Viper from Gradius and the Silverhawks from Darius. opposed to the ships you see in B. Galactica, Star Wars (some of them) Star Trek and for games you have that ship from Wing Commander. Please send me some feedback on this.

[mechaninac]

Here we go again...

While your statement that anime designs are sleeker and more dynamic than their Western Sci-Fi counterparts may be mostly true, there are exceptions (the movie that shan't be named is one example). It often comes down to logistics; most Western Sci-Fi is live action and require that full scale props be built... that tends to place a financial limit on what can be designed/built, specially on a TV budget. Anime is mostly 2D animation with more and more 3D cell-shading being used; this gives the creative team and mecha designers an extremely flexible degree of freedom to conceptualize the hardware to any given universe.

Add to the financial factor the fact that different cultures will come up with different design aesthetics. Most Western Sci-Fi mechanical designers will often create more "realistic", rugged designs... probably as a result of the incredible influence that the original Star Wars had on the genre, and everyone who pursued this type of career because of its influence. Oriental artists, while also drawing form Star Wars and other sources, will often design much more delicate, fluid space craft (call it a Zen/Bushido influence)

Edited March 7, 2006 by mechaninac

[valkyrie_cadman]

I also would like to add for a better part of the 80's and into the 90's, most of the American animation was soley driven by toys and toy sales. The show was produced to promote the toy, and not vice versa. Designing, casting, and asembling toys WAS an incredibly expensive procedure back then (but thanks to modern computer designing and laser measuring, toys can be mass produced at a relatively low cost). So the less effort and complex the design, the cheaper it was to make the toys. That's why you get the "boxy" looking spacecraft. Also throw into the mix that most of the toy designers back then weren't (for the lack of the word talented) heavily influnced by anime and fluid designs.

[Mr March]

The answer is simple, if you pay attention. Most western artists understand that when they are creating science fiction spacecraft, there is no such thing as drag and other atmospheric conditions in the vacuum of space. Further, these artists are often told to design spacecraft using the fictional technology inherent in the created sci-fi universe (such as anti-gravity, anti-acceleration, etc). Most anime stories don't use the more "magical" technologies found in western sci-fi. Case in point, most anime stories featuring fighter jets are still bound by the limitations of gravity and g-forces (including Macross).

Western science fiction shows - particularly the big franchises like Star Wars, Star Trek, and Stargate - include various "mundane" technologies as part of their fictional universe. Often, these technologies nullify dependance upon aerodynamics or in some rarer cases, the fictional spacecraft aren't meant to operate planet side at all.

Take Star Wars as an example. From the beginning, the Star Wars universe has included a technology called the Repulsorlift drive which allows any vehicle so equipped to defy gravity. This is why non-aerodynamic craft fly effortlessly within an atmosphere (snow speeders), using the repulsorlift to fly rather than relying upon aerodynamic lift. It is also why those massive, kilometer long captial ships can easly float above ground without crumbling under their own mass (Star Destroyers).

So an X-Wing doesn't have to be aerodynamically sound. Hell, the X-Wing's primary role is a space superiority fighter, so why waste time making the thing aerodynamic for an atmosphere when you can just build it with a miniturized repulsorlift drive?

Now look at Yukikaze or Macross. These universes enjoy no such miniturized technology for fighter craft (such anti-gravity tech is available only for capital ships like the Macross), so they must still design craft capable of aerodynamic lift.

When one examines other franchises, like the Starfury fighter from Babylon 5, it's clear the craft can operate only in space and not in an atmosphere. At least until they designed the Thunderbolt Starfury, which could do both

Edited March 8, 2006 by Mr March

[JB0]

The answer is simple, if you pay attention.  Most western artists understand that when they are creating science fiction spacecraft, there is no such thing as drag and other atmospheric conditions in the vacuum of space.  Further, these artists are often told to design spacecraft using the fictional technology inherent in the created sci-fi universe (such as anti-gravity, anti-acceleration, etc).  Most anime stories don't use the more "magical" technologies found in western sci-fi.  Case in point, most anime stories featuring fighter jets are still bound by the limitations of gravity and g-forces (including Macross).

The VF-1 was also, in-continuity, designed as an airplane first and foremost. The Lancer 2 was intended to be humanity's primary space fighter. And it's more "western" in styling.

Western science fiction shows - particularly the big franchises like Star Wars, Star Trek, and Stargate - include various "mundane" technologies as part of their fictional universe. 

INERTIAL DAMPERS! YAY!

Take Star Wars as an example.  From the beginning, the Star Wars universe has included a technology called the Repulsorlift drive which allows any vehicle so equipped to defy gravity.  This is why non-aerodynamic craft fly effortlessly within an atmosphere (snow speeders), using the repulsorlift to fly rather than relying upon aerodynamic lift.  It is also why those massive, kilometer long captial ships can easly float above ground without crumbling under their own mass (Star Destroyers).

Of course, the original trilogy Star Destroyers(which are much larger than their prequel counterparts) were also built in space and never meant to enter an atmosphere.

So an X-Wing doesn't have to be aerodynamically sound.  Hell, the X-Wing's primary role is a space superiority fighter, so why waste time making the thing aerodynamic for an atmosphere when you can just build it with a miniturized repulsorlift drive?

On the other hand... NEVER take a TIE into an atmosphere. Repulsors or not, those solar sails mean it has NO maneuverability(and yet, the novels and comics insist the Empire used them for atmospheric combat instead of something that can turn...).

The A-wing looks pretty streamlined, even though it's not really designed for aerodynamic flight. If I had to take a Star Wars fighter into the atmosphere, that'd be the one I'd use.

[Renato]

Oriental artists, while also drawing form Star Wars and other sources, will often design much more delicate, fluid space craft (call it a Zen/Bushido influence)

377706[/snapback]

A Zen/Bushido influence. OK, then....

[Rocket Punch]

Oriental artists, while also drawing form Star Wars and other sources, will often design much more delicate, fluid space craft (call it a Zen/Bushido influence)

377706[/snapback]

The word "Oriental" should only be used for things like salad dressing and architecture, not people.

[jenius]

The word "Oriental" should only be used for things like salad dressing and architecture, not people

Unless your salad dressing is made of people...

"Soylen dressing is PEOPLE!!!"

Man, I am so retarded. Anyway, the VF-1 looks like a modern day (um, for the 1970s) western fighter to me and the Zent ships are big blocky floating things and so is the SDF-1. I don't really see how Macross fits the bill here. Other than that the difference is almost entirely the difference between drawn Science Fiction and live-action science fiction. There are plenty of exceptions too. As Hollywood budgets get bigger you'll notice that SciFi props are getting sleeker and sleeker.

[JB0]

The word "Oriental" should only be used for things like salad dressing and architecture, not people

Unless your salad dressing is made of people...

"Soylen dressing is PEOPLE!!!"

*laughs*

... the Zent ships are big blocky floating things

FLYING PICKLES!1111

[Mr March]

The VF-1 was also, in-continuity, designed as an airplane first and foremost. The Lancer 2 was intended to be humanity's primary space fighter. And it's more "western" in styling.

A very good Macross-specific example.

INERTIAL DAMPERS! YAY!

Hmmm, I beleive Star Wars uses some other term, but that sounds appropriate.

Of course, the original trilogy Star Destroyers(which are much larger than their prequel counterparts) were also built in space and never meant to enter an atmosphere.

Actually, there was never a canon source stating the Imperial Star Destroyers were capable/incapable of planet fall. Since even the Death Star was equipped with repulsorlifts (novelization), its unlikely any mere capital ship is incapable of floating in a planetary atmosphere, unless specifically designed as such.

On the other hand... NEVER take a TIE into an atmosphere. Repulsors or not, those solar sails mean it has NO maneuverability(and yet, the novels and comics insist the Empire used them for atmospheric combat instead of something that can turn...).

The Rebel Transports on Hoth and the Trade Federation Core Ships on Geonosis are basically bricks using repulsorlifts to fly and manuver. How well repulsorlift flight translates to fighters for actual combat manuvers is an open question.

[Graham]

Simple answer, Japanese mecha designers are more talented

Graham

[jenius]

Simple answer, Japanese mecha designers are more talented

Is there such a thing as an American mecha designer? What mecha would they have created? I can only think of the armored frames in MatrixII and the cargo frame in Aliens.

[Mr March]

The word "Oriental" should only be used for things like salad dressing and architecture, not people.

377853[/snapback]

That's actually a misnomer. North American political correctness has attributed to the mislabelling of "oriental" as a derogatory/erroneous term. In reality, it is not a slur nor is it incorrect as a descriptor compared with other nomenclature. It was originally criticised mainly for the vagueness of meaning and as a dated word. However, even attempted replacement words like "asian" have been criticized as insufficient and equally vague.

Thus, this example once again exposes political correctness as a barrier to proper communication *selfish, socio-political rant*

"Oriental" is no more incorrect than calling people "westerners" or "middle eastern."

[Sundown]

The word "Oriental" should only be used for things like salad dressing and architecture, not people

Unless your salad dressing is made of people...

"Soylen dressing is PEOPLE!!!"

Man, I am so retarded.

*Cackles inanely*

I actually appreciated that.

[JB0]

Of course, the original trilogy Star Destroyers(which are much larger than their prequel counterparts) were also built in space and never meant to enter an atmosphere.

Actually, there was never a canon source stating the Imperial Star Destroyers were capable/incapable of planet fall. Since even the Death Star was equipped with repulsorlifts (novelization), its unlikely any mere capital ship is incapable of floating in a planetary atmosphere, unless specifically designed as such.

I thought the Death Star repulsors were for "hovering" above the atmosphere without entering a proper orbit, not inter-atmosphere maneuvering.

I think it'd be a safe bet that neither a Death Star nor an Imperial Star Destroyer would be landable without extensive modifications. And I supsect a Death Star might collapse under it's own weight on a planmetary surface.

On the other hand... NEVER take a TIE into an atmosphere. Repulsors or not, those solar sails mean it has NO maneuverability(and yet, the novels and comics insist the Empire used them for atmospheric combat instead of something that can turn...).

The Rebel Transports on Hoth and the Trade Federation Core Ships on Geonosis are basically bricks using repulsorlifts to fly and manuver. How well repulsorlift flight translates to fighters for actual combat manuvers is an open question.

377941[/snapback]

Neither example was a fighter. High maneuverability wasn't a necessary design feature.

The TIE's problem isn't one of repulsorlift performance, it's one of aerodynamics. The solar panels make it very vulnerable to sidewinds and are going to have nasty effects on any maneuver that isn't parallel to the cells. Worst-case scenario you could pull a maneuver that would actually rip the panels off your TIE through wind shear.

The Interceptor design should be less sensitive to this issue since it has lower-profile solar panels.

[Mr March]

Is there such a thing as an American mecha designer?  What mecha would they have created?  I can only think of the armored frames in MatrixII and the cargo frame in Aliens.

377948[/snapback]

*this is so much fun*

The term "mecha" has a much broader meaning than that applied to giant humanoid robots by science fiction anime fans. The term is actually a japanese abbreviation of the english word "mechanical" which is the japanese use to refer to vehicles, computers, and even guns.

Applying a japanese abbreviation of an english word to "western" artists and designers would mean a great deal more. Everything from sci-fi fighter planes and tanks to powered armor and robots would be considered mecha in western stories.

Most fans would point to the following as the more famous examples of "western" mecha:

• Tripod - War of the Worlds, H.G. Wells arguably the first mecha ever
  
• AT-AT, AT-ST, AT-TE, AT-RT Walkers - Star Wars
  
• Power Loader - Aliens
  
• Hunter-Killers and the T-800 Terminator - The Terminator
  
• ED-209 - Robocop
  
• APU Armored Personnel Unit - The Matrix
  
• Powered Suit - Starship Troopers
  

To a lesser degree, creations like the Stormtroopers/Clonetroopers (Star Wars), Spartans (Halo), and other such powered armor suits would be defined as mecha.

Edited March 8, 2006 by Mr March

[Rocket Punch]

The word "Oriental" should only be used for things like salad dressing and architecture, not people.

377853[/snapback]

"Oriental" is no more incorrect than calling people "westerners" or "middle eastern."

377950[/snapback]

So, I'm Oriental, huh? That's funny. I thought I was filipino.

[Black Valkyrie]

What about go nagai`s UFO designs like Grendaizer

[jenius]

Thank you Mr. March for the education on the whole "mecha" thing. I guess since much of this conversation has been about starships and stuff I should have realized that sooner. I guess I was thinking mecha was somehow derived from robot or jinzo-ningen concepts (pardon my jinzo spelling there, i probably butchered it).

[Mr March]

I thought the Death Star repulsors were for "hovering" above the atmosphere without entering a proper orbit, not inter-atmosphere maneuvering.

I think it'd be a safe bet that neither a Death Star nor an Imperial Star Destroyer would be landable without extensive modifications. And I supsect a Death Star might collapse under it's own weight on a planetary surface.

Repulsorlifts enable even massive objects to remain intact against the gravity wells of planets, such as the kilometer long Venator Star Destroyers in Revenge of the Sith. As for the Death Star, it can sustain structural stress from acceleration measured in the hundreds of g's, so I doubt the gravity of any planet is a concern. Though to be honest, I can't imagine why the Death Star would manuver so close to a planet anyway.

Neither example was a fighter. High maneuverability wasn't a necessary design feature.

The TIE's problem isn't one of repulsorlift performance, it's one of aerodynamics. The solar panels make it very vulnerable to sidewinds and are going to have nasty effects on any maneuver that isn't parallel to the cells. Worst-case scenario you could pull a maneuver that would actually rip the panels off your TIE through wind shear.

The Interceptor design should be less sensitive to this issue since it has lower-profile solar panels.

As mentioned above, spacecraft in Star Wars can endure accelerations measured in hundreds-thousands of g's, so mere atmospheric stress would pose no threat to the hull of a TIE fighter. The only unknown is how manuverable fighters are utilizing repulsors alone in an atmosphere. I can't recall the films ever depicting an atmospheric fight between space superiority fighters. Mostly, all we see is the X-Wing, Millenium Falcon, Slave One, Naboo Royal Cruisers, and an assortment of other spacecraft transversing very quickly from surface-to-orbit and vice versa.

[Mr March]

So, I'm Oriental, huh?  That's funny.  I thought I was filipino.

377960[/snapback]

You can correctly call yourself "terran" should the occasion arise

[azrael]

Lay off the "Oriental" crap will ya.

Simple answer, Japanese mecha designers are more talented

Amen.

[Rocket Punch]

So, I'm Oriental, huh?  That's funny.  I thought I was filipino.

377960[/snapback]

You can correctly call yourself "terran" should the occasion arise

377969[/snapback]

Haha.

[Zentrandude]

The word "Oriental" should only be used for things like salad dressing and architecture, not people.

377853[/snapback]

"Oriental" is no more incorrect than calling people "westerners" or "middle eastern."

377950[/snapback]

So, I'm Oriental, huh? That's funny. I thought I was filipino.

377960[/snapback]

No your pinoy like me

[Graham]

I'm Zolan, only have 1 arm and hunt Galactic Whales.

Graham

[Guest Bromgrev]

I'm an Occident waiting to happen.

[Dante74]

a little of topic: Bromgev, What's that thing in your avatar? I know it's Eddie, but is it a cg model or a real world model?

Back to topic:

I'm,...uhm,...uuhhm,...to stupid to think of something funny.

[Guest Bromgrev]

It's a real-world pre-painted model - not mine, unfortunately ...

[Phalanx]

Well IMO I believe that the japanese have a sense of style and creativity when it comes to their designs of space craft. But I also believe that some of their space ship designs in video games and anime are influenced by jet planes designs. Like the Vic Viper ship from Gradius; it just so happens to look like a jet than a spaceship IMO.

[Coota0]

Simple answer, Japanese mecha designers are more talented

Is there such a thing as an American mecha designer? What mecha would they have created? I can only think of the armored frames in MatrixII and the cargo frame in Aliens.

377948[/snapback]

Robot Jox!

[Rocket Punch]

It's a real-world pre-painted model - not mine, unfortunately ... 

378012[/snapback]

...of Deathlok, right?