Macross II versus Macross 7

[SpacyAce2012]

Honestly though, what about Gubaba? Gubaba causes me some internal conflict. At some points, I think Gubaba is excellent comic relief. Clearly cute and childish, downright outlandish at times, but for some reason I didn't really mind. Okay, that episode where Gubaba got lost on the planet was too much but otherwise I think, as much as I dislike myself for doing so, I actually liked Gubaba.

Gubaba kicks ass.

[Zinjo]

SpacyAce2012 you must realize by now that for Keith any correllation or similarity between Mac II (aka the "Blasphemy") and Kawamori (aka the "holy god") is simply and absolutely impossible.

So trying to debate him on it will result in your own frustration...

However, I agree that there is room for you speculation of factions within the SA.

Personally I like to speculate that the SA considered the PD as their gods as part of their mental conditioning.

Thus any war they fought would be a holy war, with all the enthusiasm that would bring.

Then there is the very real probability that the SA were capable of building weaponry and even fashioning new more powerful weapons. After all they are composed of PC decendants as well as Zentreadi.

In SDFM the Macross was a SA gunship, with buster canon technology that the Zentreadi did not seem to possess (in DYRL they did, but since SK hasn't revealed what was actual history, we don't know. All we know is he said the true story is somewhere in between the two).

The PD also reinforce this idea with how they rebuilt the Megaroad 13 capital ships into their own designs, with their new army.

I like to speculate that the SA are smaller in number than the Zentreadi, but with more powerful and innovative weaponry.

Thus you have a situation of one side winning over the other through superior numbers and brute force or the other side winning by use of weaponry with devastating power, as opposed to some sort of massive capital ship slugging match which the Zents would almost always win.

Such a notion of a capital ship slugfest doesn't support the idea that the SA were any real credible threat to the giants, and that isn't the case.

Not to mention that if it has taken the Zentreadi war machine 1/2 a million years to "mop up" the SA, that isn't saying much about the Zentreadi armada's war record...

EDIT:

Gubaba kicks ass.

Amen brutha...

Edited January 3, 2007 by Zinjo

[Keith]

Just finished watching the entire M7 series in order to give it a try.

What I like:

Some of the songs (not all)

The mecha

What I didn't like:

Basara and his supposed commitment to singing over battle. Some people will say his dedication to peaceful resolution is commendable but I think it's dumb as his stubborness is fatal. All the cannon fodder VF-11 dies around him as he sings. His singlemindedness(sp?) reminds me of G Dub and Eye-Rack.

Stupid stupid Mylene.

Some of the bad songs being repeated over and over again.

Quantifying the mystic sound energy. This amounted to when Star Wars said the force is a bunch of midichlorines...totally killed it for me.

I voted for/against M7.

No one "ever" died as a result of Basara's singing. Simple fact is, regardless of whether he would have been fighting or not, an extra pilot on the battlefield served to distract more Varuta away from the cannon fodder VF-11's. One more pilot taking pot shots at them wouldn't have made a difference. Besides which, very few, if any, of those VF-11 pilots actually died. Part of the reason they were taken out so easily is that they weren't just being shot at, they were having their spiritia drained. That nullified their ability to retaliate against their attackers, and left them immobile targets.

And considering when all is said & done, that the Protodevelin's technology vastly outclassed any weaponry the U.N. Spacy had, just fighting them never would have ended well. If anything, the singlemindedness comes from those who think only returning violence against violence will solve a conflict. Considering there was a whole fleet full of fighter pilots, one (then later 4) musicians hardly put the rest in danger.

SpacyAce2012 you must realize by now that for Keith any correllation or similarity between Mac II (aka the "Blasphemy") and Kawamori (aka the "holy god") is simply and absolutely impossible.

So trying to debate him on it will result in your own frustration...

However, I agree that there is room for you speculation of factions within the SA.

Personally I like to speculate that the SA considered the PD as their gods as part of their mental conditioning.

Thus any war they fought would be a holy war, with all the enthusiasm that would bring.

Except nothing of the sort is even remotely shown. It's doubtful the Protodevelin would have treated the Varuta forces any different than the SA, and the the Varuta treated the PD at best like an aristocracy, most certainly not like gods.

Then there is the very real probability that the SA were capable of building weaponry and even fashioning new more powerful weapons. After all they are composed of PC decendants as well as Zentreadi.

Considering the Varuta were shown to still possess complex technical skill, that's quite likely, as someone would have to re-engineer the weaponry of their fleet, and it's doubtful the PD would want to sit & do all that work themselves. The same should be true for the PD.

In SDFM the Macross was a SA gunship, with buster canon technology that the Zentreadi did not seem to possess (in DYRL they did, but since SK hasn't revealed what was actual history, we don't know. All we know is he said the true story is somewhere in between the two).

What Macross were you watching? Britai's ship had that technology, as did the rest of the bulkier ships in Bodolza's fleet. That's what they used to toast Earth. Also note, the whole "true story is somewhere between the two" spiel is from before Kawamori's return to Macross with Plus & 7, i.e. before DYRL was relegated to a movie within the canon.

The PD also reinforce this idea with how they rebuilt the Megaroad 13 capital ships into their own designs, with their new army.

I like to speculate that the SA are smaller in number than the Zentreadi, but with more powerful amd inovative weaponry.

Thus you have a situation of one side winning over the other through superior numbers and brute force or the other side winning by use of weaponry with devastating power, as opposed to some sort of massive capital ship slugging match which the Zents would almost always win.

Such a notion of a capital ship slugfest doesn't support the idea that the SA were any real credible threat to the giants, and that isn't the case.

Not to mention that if it has taken the Zentreadi war machine 1/2 a million years to "mop up" the SA, that isn't saying much about the Zentreadi armada's war record...

Let's put this into perspective then. The only real sign of the Supervision Army has been half demolished ships. By the 2040 era of Macross, the U.N. Spacy has spread a pretty good bit through the Universe. While there are indications of Zentradi fleets still roaming around, the general implication has been that many were "mopped up," so to speak. Britai was so bored at the beginning of Macross that he & Exedor went chasing after a near comfirmed kill just to make sure there was nothing left to fight there. The only other Supervision Army ship aside from the Macross that has been seen was another wreckage in 2011. When the Protodevelin revived would have been the time to regroup any significant SA force to complement their newer army. When Basara was regaining major chunks of the Varuta would have been an even better time to pull back in any remaining SA. They had the ability to fold damn near anywhere they wanted, they had all the modern communications equipment they'd need, and they had no reason "not" to use them. Hell, when the PD learned to sutain themselves at the end of 7, you'd think that if for no other reason then to tie up all bygons they'd regall the SA "then" just to demilitarize them. But still no sign of them.

Considering all the facts presented, combined with the general take of "in-fighting" of bored Zentradi like Kamjin, that the SA were pretty close to whiped out by the start of the first Macross series. And even if they were to pop back up, they would no longer have any reason left to fight.

Contrast this with the Marduk who are shown to have their own mythology (apparenlty loosely based on a mythical space ship), and dialogue from either Ishtar or one of the high priestess emulator's (I forget which) that the Marduk were once an independent race just like humans who came across the Zentradi & won them over with their culture (only to enslave them & use their technology to stomp over the galaxy), and you have very little similarity to the SA at all. Hell, their "mind control" technology couldn't have been more different. The SA/Varuta were still capable of independent thoght & action, just skewed towards the PD's goals. The Marduk Zentradi on the other hand were reduced to animal actions of fighting & sleeping, nothing inbetween.

[Zinjo]

What Macross were you watching? Britai's ship had that technology, as did the rest of the bulkier ships in Bodolza's fleet. That's what they used to toast Earth.

Um the real one! The Zent fleet used their turret cannons to bombard the Earth no Buster Cannon was every seen, you are confusing DYRL with the series...

Let's put this into perspective then. The only real sign of the Supervision Army has been half demolished ships. By the 2040 era of Macross, the U.N. Spacy has spread a pretty good bit through the Universe.

Hardly. A few dozen emigration fleets are not going to "spread a pretty good bit" through the "universe" that number would have barely covered a sliver of our own galaxy!

This doesn't include all the expeditions there were lost over the years, we only know of 2, but there could have been more and since Spacy never sent out SAR's to look for them, who knows what their fates were.

Now we know the PC Republic spread out all over our own galaxy and that is HUGE in it's own right, so what Spacy has witnessed in the produced series' doesn't amount to much of what is really out there.

While there are indications of Zentradi fleets still roaming around, the general implication has been that many were "mopped up," so to speak. Britai was so bored at the beginning of Macross that he & Exedor went chasing after a near comfirmed kill just to make sure there was nothing left to fight there. The only other Supervision Army ship aside from the Macross that has been seen was another wreckage in 2011.

Again, our galaxy alone is vast, and since most warring armies don't announce their whereabouts to their enemies, we are not privy to how many SA forces were actually in our sliver of the galaxy at the time of SDFM.

Boredom in the ranks of an agressive fighting race between battles seems pretty reasonable to me, no other implications should be read into that.

Your "implications" have about as much weight as my "speculations".

When the Protodevelin revived would have been the time to regroup any significant SA force to complement their newer army. When Basara was regaining major chunks of the Varuta would have been an even better time to pull back in any remaining SA. They had the ability to fold damn near anywhere they wanted, they had all the modern communications equipment they'd need, and they had no reason "not" to use them.

Well let's analyse this argument.

The SA were all over the galaxy and the PD had no idea where to begin looking or even if their army had survived (assuming they even cared as the impression I gleened from M7 was that they were essentially selfish beings).

Since they already had a population to exploit, they had no need to even bother looking for an army that could have been extinct.

Then there is the fold communications. Now everyone knows that in a hostile region all communications would be monitored.

So in order for the PD to put out a "call to arms" to the SA (assuming they even cared they still existed) they would have to send a wide area broadcast using an ancient encryption that would likely have been broken by then, which in turn would alert any Zent fleet in the vicinity to attack them.

In M7 we saw none of this, when they woke no one knew until the M7 fleet arrived.

Hell, when the PD learned to sutain themselves at the end of 7, you'd think that if for no other reason then to tie up all bygons they'd regall the SA "then" just to demilitarize them. But still no sign of them.

Again, these beings were selfish entities who only cared about themselves, why would they care about an army that were essentially their cannon fodder slaves?

They released the Megaroad 13 population only because they no longer had any need for them.

I got no impression that they had a sudden change of character, only that they were now self sustaining entities.

Considering all the facts presented, combined with the general take of "in-fighting" of bored Zentradi like Kamjin, that the SA were pretty close to whiped out by the start of the first Macross series. And even if they were to pop back up, they would no longer have any reason left to fight.

Well I can see how a highly aggressive race bred for war would never fight amongst themselves in between battles, unless their enemies were on the decline...

The Zents fought throughout their history on Earth, why would it be such a stretch to conclude it could happen between battles in space?

It isn't like either side would announce their presence to the other or that they would be fighting constantly either.

WWII was a series of battles over multiple fronts, not just one big one.

Contrast this with the Marduk who are shown to have their own mythology (apparenlty loosely based on a mythical space ship), and dialogue from either Ishtar or one of the high priestess emulator's (I forget which) that the Marduk were once an independent race just like humans who came across the Zentradi & won them over with their culture (only to enslave them & use their technology to stomp over the galaxy), and you have very little similarity to the SA at all.

HUH? What show were you claiming to watch?

The legend of the Alus was there and there was mention of conquests over other worlds, but nothing about their origins.

Hell, their "mind control" technology couldn't have been more different. The SA/Varuta were still capable of independent thoght & action, just skewed towards the PD's goals. The Marduk Zentradi on the other hand were reduced to animal actions of fighting & sleeping, nothing inbetween.

Well Keith I've learned that you tend to see what you want to see, so I won't even bother with this one as it's been discussed before...

[Oihan]

Ahhhhhhh....debates on Macross II (with Keith no less)...brings me back to the days of AFM. (I still stand by my arguments made way back then. )

[Skull-1]

I hate Do You Remember Love, just to be different.

Ditto.

[SpacyAce2012]

SpacyAce2012 you must realize by now that for Keith any correllation or similarity between Mac II (aka the "Blasphemy") and Kawamori (aka the "holy god") is simply and absolutely impossible.

So trying to debate him on it will result in your own frustration...

Well, considering I was attempting to discuss, rather than debate...........

Keith's feelings on Macross II are, indeed, well known to me. While I don't agree with them, I do respect his opinion (and wouldn't think of even attempting to change his mind. He's pretty passionate).

Myself, I enjoy all of the Macross releases to date. And while I have my nitpicks/gripes regarding each series, I would watch all of them again (and I do, when I get the urge to do so).

So, I suppose that makes me one thing: A CONSUMER WHORE!!! HUZZAH!!!

And damned proud of it!

EDIT: This makes for some good sig material, this new self realization.

Edited January 4, 2007 by SpacyAce2012

[jigahus]

I'm glad I watched all M7 and M2 on Youtube. I wouldn't have paid donkey dung for that crap.

[SpacyAce2012]

I'm glad I watched all M7 and M2 on Youtube. I wouldn't have paid donkey dung for that crap.

To each their own, brother.

Would you like me to start singing "Planet Dance" for you right now?

By the way, welcome to the madhouse (aka Macross World Forums).

[JB0]

I'm glad I watched all M7 and M2 on Youtube. I wouldn't have paid donkey dung for that crap.

Use the 'torrent, Luke!

[Skull-1]

They both suck but the mecha designs in MII are better than M7's.

[Keith]

Well, considering I was attempting to discuss, rather than debate...........

Keith's feelings on Macross II are, indeed, well known to me. While I don't agree with them, I do respect his opinion (and wouldn't think of even attempting to change his mind. He's pretty passionate).

Myself, I enjoy all of the Macross releases to date. And while I have my nitpicks/gripes regarding each series, I would watch all of them again (and I do, when I get the urge to do so).

So, I suppose that makes me one thing: A CONSUMER WHORE!!! HUZZAH!!!

And damned proud of it!

EDIT: This makes for some good sig material, this new self realization.

Part of fandom is taking the bad with the good, hell, even I own a copy of II on DVD, just as I owned it on tape back in the day.

[Zinjo]

Keith's feelings on Macross II are, indeed, well known to me. While I don't agree with them, I do respect his opinion (and wouldn't think of even attempting to change his mind. He's pretty passionate).

That is to be sure...

I enjoy it at times, when he's on his game, he can be quite a formidable opponent.

Myself, I enjoy all of the Macross releases to date. And while I have my nitpicks/gripes regarding each series, I would watch all of them again (and I do, when I get the urge to do so).

Too true... I have been considering watching M7 again, with the mindset of a kid so I can appreciate it for what it is.

[jigahus]

To each their own, brother.

Would you like me to start singing "Planet Dance" for you right now?

By the way, welcome to the madhouse (aka Macross World Forums).

At least it would be better than the 24 hours in downtown song...which was utter crapola. Well thanks for the welcome.

And I just remembered another thing I liked about the show. The Black guy diamond force leader...he was a pimp as a pilot and with the bridge bunnies.

But another thing that someone asked..I didn't like Guvava.

[Sweet Zombie Jesus]

Um the real one! The Zent fleet used their turret cannons to bombard the Earth no Buster Cannon was every seen, you are confusing DYRL with the series...

I agree with everything else you're saying, it's all interesting speculation, but if you watch this, Macross (TV) Ep.27 pt.1 from about 5:43, you'll see the Zentradi ships opening up to fire as they did in DYRL.

[Keith]

but if you watch this, Macross (TV) Ep.27 pt.1 from about 5:43, you'll see the Zentradi ships opening up to fire as they did in DYRL.

What he said.

[SpacyAce2012]

At least it would be better than the 24 hours in downtown song...which was utter crapola. Well thanks for the welcome.

And I just remembered another thing I liked about the show. The Black guy diamond force leader...he was a pimp as a pilot and with the bridge bunnies.

But another thing that someone asked..I didn't like Guvava.

"Holy Lonely Night" was one of the best Fire Bomber tracks in the whole series.

I agree that Captain Kinryuu(sp?) was an interesting character. His death was also one of the more heroic in the series.

[Keith]

Was Kinryu black? I always thought he was Japanese. Ray was likely black though.

[SpacyAce2012]

Was Kinryu black? I always thought he was Japanese. Ray was likely black though.

I thought he was, despite the Japanese name. With the "Great Genetic Bingo Lottery" (a term I picked up from a Battletech novel back in the day) that post-Space War Earth was, I wouldn't be suprised if he was black (Islander or African descent), but ethnically Japanese (comes from a predominately Japanese family).

As for Ray Lovelock, I figured he was from a black American background. But for some strange reason, American Indian pops into my head everytime I see Ray in the series.

[jigahus]

Just rewatched Macross II today. I can now definately say Macross 7 is trash.

[eight_car]

Mac7 is NOT trash!

Granted it could have been done better (much better) , but trash is a bit harsh.

If you want TRASH, there is something called roblowtech!

And I still vote MacZero as the worst!

Best to Worst

Macross TV Series

DYRL

Mac Plus 4 Part OVA (I haven't seen movie, need to get my VHS back so I can)

(tie) Mac 7 TV Series

(tie) Mac II (Movie, never seen the 6 part OVA)

Miss Dynamite

Mac Zero

And Miss Dynamite came close to beating out Zero, but Zero went way over the top in the story!

[Zinjo]

Just rewatched Macross II today. I can now definately say Macross 7 is trash.

Macross 7 is a J-pop kids show.

If you keep it in context, it isn't "trash", it just very different from the rest of the series'.

Keeping it in context also helps to appreciate it for what it is.

It isn't Shakespear, but it has it's moments.

[myk]

M7 does NOT rate over 'Zero...

[sketchley]

Macross 7? Trash? You guys talking about the manga Macross 7 Trash?

[eight_car]

M7 does NOT rate over 'Zero...

Yes it does, and I can prove it

Mac 7 ____ Mac 0

The Mac's cancel each other out

7 > 0

Simple math!

[Zinjo]

Yes it does, and I can prove it

Mac 7 ____ Mac 0

The Mac's cancel each other out

7 > 0

Simple math!

OK THAT is the weakest argument for Mac 7 to date...

[Keith]

All Macross (except for II) is exceptionally awesome. II is just kinda cool.

[Zinjo]

I agree with everything else you're saying, it's all interesting speculation, but if you watch this, Macross (TV) Ep.27 pt.1 from about 5:43, you'll see the Zentradi ships opening up to fire as they did in DYRL.

I stand corrected.

I just reviewed the episode and the Zents do indeed have buster cannon gun ships, but unlike DYRL "not all" have the cannons.

If you look carefully you will note that only a certain type of gunship has the buster cannon, the rest of the ships are in formation only.

It would appear that Bodolza never deployed the gunships with Breetai's or Lap Lamis's fleets, but brought them along with his own armada.

[eight_car]

OK THAT is the weakest argument for Mac 7 to date...

I thought the weakest arguement was ... I like Valks with breasts!

LOL

[JB0]

I thought the weakest arguement was ... I like Valks with breasts!

LOL

Hey, there's not many mecha designers still catering to Mazinger fans...

[bsu legato]

Part of fanboyism is taking the bad with the good,

Fixed it for you. The rest of us are perfectly capable of picking and choosing what to watch and what not to watch.

[DestroidDefender]

If you go back tot he original topic here: Which is the most hated? The answer has to be Mac7. Many people vehemently actually hate it. Whereas many are just indifferent to macII.

[Keith]

Actually, upon investigating various places on the internet, Macross 7 isn't very hated in the anime community at all. Just seems to be a handful of militant minded macross fans.

[jenius]

Actually, upon investigating various places on the internet, Macross 7 isn't very hated in the anime community at all. Just seems to be a handful of militant minded macross fans.

Keith, fresh from a trip to Macross7 fansites has determined that many people actually like Macross7. Nobody is saying that everyone hates Macross7 but I can honestly say that everyone I have actually met in person who is familiar with anime and has watched Mac7 has passionately disliked it. Before I ever saw it I was warned to avoid it like the plague because it might kill my passion for Macross. I've seen a few people on message boards defend it but have never run into one at a video store or anywhere I might be (although honestly, I don't know many people into anime at all). That said, those same people that hated Mac7 have always known MacII and just like DestroidDefender says, the typical reaction is either indifference or a "that one scene was cool" refering to something in particular they liked.

[eight_car]

Hey, there's not many mecha designers still catering to Mazinger fans...

Never heard of Mazinger, sounds cheesy from your reply to my joke though.

How bad WAS it?