dreamweaver13

very good and thought out points, and the speculations are sound enough to be true. if it all pans out as you predicted, it would tie in with the rest, if i recall the events correctly (and without watching the entire series in its entirety yet). hope springs eternal, and i still hope for sheryl's love to be requited. i feel she deserves it.

just to clarify. this thread was not set out to argue or establish that macross frontier itself is similar, or is a rip-off of the enderverse. it's only intent is to point out similarities or homages. and when compared to the differences, the similarities are sooo few and far betweem. in no way is macross frontier, as a whole, similar to the enderverse. they're just light years away. so when we start pointing out differences, then there would be no end to it.

ender had the concept of queens in each fleet. when Mazer Rackham killed the queen in one fleet, that entire fleet went dead, but the formics continued on as a species as long as there are other queens alive. i can't recall if enderverse had a MOTHER QUEEN concept (one queen to rule them all). it would seem the Vajra has a MOTHER QUEEN, one which grace is so desperate to find. "collective hive-mind" and "queen-mind with appendages" is actually difficult to distinguish. they're almost similar from a human's point of view.

Thanks for starting this thread. i've always found the mythology stories in macross zero very interesting. and the first time i watched it, i paid special attention to the mythology. the geek in me was trying to figure out how much of the mythology was related to the actual facts concerning the coming of the protoculture. it was interesting how much the narration certainly had the "feel" of a typical creation mythology -- a good story, good imagery, but mostly unbelievable. but with our knowledge about protoculture from SDFM and macross 7, the mythology certainly took on a new meaning and significance. of course, we could all agree that the myth shouldn't all be taken literally. i think of it as a roadmap of the true history and origin of mankind (in the macross universe), but interpreted by someone who had no understanding of technology. as arthur clarke said, "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic". hence, all these references to space turtles and shells. but it's still amazing just how much of it can be true. A long time ago, when the world was at its beginning, there was the sea and the wind. At that time, man was a fish. One day, the Birdman, who traveled between the stars, came across the sea. Before the great wings of the Birdman, man said in awe and fear, “You can fly, but you do not know the depths of the sea. What a sad and pitiful being you must be,” he laughed. The angry Birdman then cut the man’s tail and fin. From those wounds, legs grew, and the first man, Rooy Kamu, was born. i would surmise a guess that no such conversation took place. hehe. whatever sea creature the protoculture toyed with was, i'm guessing, incapable of intelligent communication. much less being haughty at the protoculture's s supposed inability to swim. so the protoculture took that sea creature (or a multitude of sea creatures), experimented with genes and started to create what would eventually be humans. Rooy Kamu went on a journey by ship. At that time, there was no land yet. Thirsty Rooy Kamu cried sorrowfully, “What an unfortunate man I am. I am full of thirst, yet I have no spring to quench it.” And so, the Birdman dropped a sea-turtle’s shell. The sea turtle’s shell hit a rock and shattered. And so, that shell became the island of Maya, and the splinters of the shell became the surrounding islands. well, since the first humans were most probably created in the protoculture's ship or island, it wouldn't be a stretch to imagine the first "man" going on a journey in that ship. you could say that a "test tube baby" took a journey in a test tube first, as weird as that sounds. could the protoculture have created the mayan islands (it would be easy enough to create an island through landfill for a civilization as advances as the protoculture)? yup. is it also possible that the protoculture simply found a pre-existing group of islands and put the first humans there? still plausible. from the point of view of the first humans, those islands still came out of nowhere. Rooy Kamu stepped onto the island and cried sorrowfully, “What an unfortunate man I am. I have to live alone in such a place. I have no wife to share my joy and sorrow.” And so the Birdman descended and cut his own neck. The blood flowing from his neck took the form of a human and became the woman Rooy Waka. Rooy Kamu and Rooy Waka married and had many children. here's where i think the origin story gets tricky. most origin stories would have man created first, then woman. in fact, the way the mayan myth goes, it sounded eerily like christian adam and eve mythology. yup, down to the details where adam wanted companionship (read as "horny") and god created woman out of his own bone. I would hazard a guess that man and woman were created at the same time. the protoculture/birdman spilling his own blood to create woman should apply to both genders. so, it's not so much that the protculture simply experimented genetically with the earth's sea-creatures to create another random intelligent being. it's more like the protoculture using its own blood and DNA to tweak the creature's genetic structure in order for it to become similar to the protoculure. OR it could even be a case of the protoculture cloning itself but adding the sea-creature's DNA or genetic make-up to the mix, to make the first human an indigenous intelligent race. either way would work, and either would require the protoculture using some of its own blood for the experiment. OR how about this. the first man was a sea-creature clone with a protoculture upgrade. the first woman was a protoculture clone with a sea-creature DNA infusion. let them procreate, then you would have the first actual new species called "humans". Then Rooy Waka, who have given birth to many children, went home to the other side of the sea, to beyond the stars. “Oh, come back, my wife.” To which the Birdman replied, “Oh, my husband, Rooy Kamu. The day I shall return is the day the reign of heaven will crumble. On that day, the Song of Destruction will echo throughout this world.” this would imply that by the time the protoculture left earth, the first woman was still alive. if so, this would mean that humanity was merely at its infancy. 2 or 3 generations at best. which would explain why the protoculture creation story was relatively unknown, and a handful of people were left with the task of trying to tell that story in the best way that they can. yes, with a space turtle. it could also imply that the first people already understood that humanity was a result of a mix of both human and protoculture. thus, when the protoculture left, it could have been symbolized as humanity's "wife" leaving earth; leaving her "husband" (the humans) to fend for himself. so why the doomsday scenario? why the need to fear the protoculture's return? why was the AFOS left? 1. maybe the protoculture had no intention of returning. if other space-faring creatures were to return, it wouldn't be them. it would be the zentraedi. hence, the song of destruction. the AFOS' task would be to either fight the zentraedi, or to self-destruct earth along with the zentraedi fleet. 2. maybe the AFOS was left behind as a failsafe device (as isamu starkiller pointed out). there are trigger points: if the humans ever developed sufficient technology to find, capture and re-attach the two parts of the AFOS, and if the humans by that time were "warlike", then they would be considered a threat to the protoculture and space, and thus should be eliminated. in either case, the "return of the birdman" (either by way of the AFOS, or the zentraedi) should definitely be feared as it would bring about the "song of destruction".

i agree. hikaru must have been knocking his head against the wall when he saw that picture.

my god, so this is what's going on inside bobby's mind.

nope, far as i know, the protoculture didn't live "under the ocean". that island was above sea-level. the earth-dwelling protoculture sunk it to hide it from the zentraedi eons ago before they left. as for the fish, based on the old origin/folk stories of the mayans (Nomes), the birdman protoculture cut off the fish's head and turned him to a human. while it shouldn't be taken literally, we can assume that it was based somewhat or loosely on fact. we can hyptothesise that the protoculture experimented genetically with a sea-based living creature and turned it into a man. would also tie in with the scientific that all life on earth started as sea-based living things.

yup, that's what i supposed. alto's first instinct was to give first aid to the cut. sheryl refused, for fear of infecting alto. awwwww..

Oh come on, Hikaru should win this one hands down. Alto is not really dense - in a way he seems quite sensitive to what's going on around him. indecisive maybe. a bit aloof maybe. but not dense. he already had an inkling about ranka's feelings way back in ep 10. (in fact, he didn't seem at all surprised that ranka confessed to him in ep21. it was more of the timing, and what ranka planned to do). and he seems aware that sheryl has feelings for him (he doesn't react violently or like an idiot when michael or klan is trying to get him together with Sheryl). he just goes with the flow. and while it may seem he hasn't made a final decision yet, he doesn't do any irresponsible act that would show insensitivity to either ranka or sheryl on his part. basara just doesn't seem to care that much. he's not clueless, and i think he can understand women if he wanted to. he seemed to understand the bioker chick's feelings for him. and hey, he clearly understood sivil, a girl who only screams "anima spiritia" over and over again. gotta give him props for that. and as for Hikaru... oh my where do i begin. after rescuing misa, he should've gotten an idea of how misa felt for him. misa was all clingy the whole time. but let's forgive that for the moment. in a span of 2 years, during which misa had the keys to his place, and she would regularly clean it, he never gave it a second thought. Misa invited him to her room in britai's ship for tea, started to tell him something important, and ordered him to kiss her (again). nope still nothing. when vanessa set him straight, he acted surprised and it took him the rest of the night to wisen up. and just when we thought hikaru finally got it, he regressed in the very next episode and stood misa up for minmay. even if he had no romantic intents twoards minmay at that time (which is highly unlikely), to even think of breaking a date to go out with a person misa is clearly threatened by is sooo dense on many levels. come on, did Hikaru really NEED misa to confess on his doorway for him to wisen up? although i would have to differentiate SDFM hikaru with DYRL Hikaru. the latter's quick on the draw, sharp with women, decisive and consistent. alto and basara couldn't hold a candle to this guy.

Thanks for the screencaps. yeah, i guess it's not 3. but you know, we could avoid all this confusion by saying that Alto and Sheryl decided to move in together and get a new place of their own. yowza, no wonder alto's getting teased by his subordinates!

I love minmay. while i think that's it's good that Hikaru ended up with Misa, a part of me wishes that Minmay also had her happy ending. and i think Minmay is still is Hikaru's true love, til the very end. and i never got the impression that Minmay was depicted worse in DYRL. sure she wished everyone else was dead in a time of despair, but aside from that, whet else did she do? when she dated hikaru and fell for him, she was consistent. and she was even the one who made the move to get hikaru back. she never wavered, second-guessed or flirted. once she found out hikaru was alive, she went straight to him. from her perspective, she went from a date with hikaru on saturn's rings to meeting him again on the macross stage. who could blame her for going after his man, since she had no idea or inkling of what happened in between. and despite being depressed and heart-broken, all it took was a slap and a few seconds for her to sing and save humanity, and make peace with misa. SDFM Minmay was not at all bad either. her only fault in SDFM was being a wee bit flighty and dense when it came to hikaru's feelings. but all in all, she was a fantastic girl. it was only RT which ruined her, IMO. sadly. so to introduce myself, "Hi, i'm dreamweaver. and i'm a minmay fan." everyone else: "gasp"!

i think they did. i seem to remember the lunchbox being empty before sheryl tried to leave, but i'll have to watch again to be sure.

wow. how fast is that?! Unfortunately, it's booby trapped. whenever a virus threat comes along, you lose control of the computer and wipe out the systems of all other computers in its network.

No. GAMLIN is his bitch, not mylene.

On the contrary, i think they lightened up when they saw the buns (who wouldn't? ), but when they ate it, alto started getting fatalistic (there's no way out), sheryl got some suicidal tendencies (i don't care if that's vacuum out there, i'm leaving) and ranka got... well... absolutely quiet. ergo... seeing nyan nyan tuna buns = lighten up! eatging nyan nyan tuna buns = despair!

This is perfect!! Thanks for this Whispo! you da Ozma!

haha. what a way to close the series out. Alto, kabuki speaker for the dead. later on, he finds the planet where gubaba (the macross 7 character, just to be clear!) came from and discovers that they kill each other for honor. gubaba is a pequenino!

for me, 2 sounds reasonable. 3 is most likely. 1 and 4 are less likely but still possible. some are intepreting it as "don't leave me", which could mean either sheryl or alto's place. But if it's literally "don't go home", then it most likely is sheryl's place (with this, we are again left with alto as the eternal vagabond. hehe). the apartment might look different, but maybe it's all a matter of atmosphere. in ep19, ranka's room was a well-lighted happy place coz.. well... that's ranka. but we certainly can't have that atmosphere to emphasize that sheryl is slowly dying. if it's sheryl's own apartment, it must be new (so it's not a "first time on air" moment). she used to stay in a hotel before her confrontation with grace. then from there, straight to saotome mansion. well since alto can't fully take care of her in the mansion (since he has that old "i'll never go back home again" oath), maybe she convinced sheryl to get her own place.

just to continue the discussion in the news thread... what's the answer to the ultimate question, "your place or mine?". whose place was it (where sheryl got drunk)? alto's or sheryl's? theories so far: 1) alto's apartment (gasp! first time on air!) 2) Sheryl's new apartment 3) Ranka's apartment when she was the new star of the NUNG, given to sheryl. 4) Alto's spankin' new apartment as a squadron leader for NUNS

good points. sure doesn't seem like money was ever a problem for alto-hime. AND to get back on track, why are they juxtaposing michael's death with a ranka-alto pairing? is this supposed for foretell something?

If it is, indeed, Sheryl's place, then it's most likely the same place where Ranka stayed while she was employed by the government. after all, sheryl did take her place, why not her flat?

haha. pretty fancy apartment for a student who had been disinherited. but then again, that's alto for you. someone that pretty has to be in a fancy apartment.

Hey, cool! i thought the thread died out since it was no longer in the 3 pages of the forum. didn't know you could "search" it back to life. thanks! what exactly were they saying, by the way? i can catch that they were teasing alto about sheryl, but how are they teasing him? are they assuming they're a couple? in fact, do they know that the two are living together? but even though i only caught the gist of their chat, i was laughing all the way. didn't even know that alto was making a reference to a "jinx" until someone here pointed it out. funny!

updated. added enderverse similarity # 7 to the OP upon watching ep 23.

well, before he moved out, he obviously lived at the saotome mansion. after he joined SMS, he lived at the barracks. now that he's top NUNS honcho, i'm guessing he gets the same lofty accomodations as Ozma used to have (with sheryl, to boot!) but the question remains: after saotome mansion and before SMS, where the hell did he stay? the cardboard box theory seems to hold water.