Mr March

I think that's the heart of the matter. Not just Yamato, but a lot of Japanese toy companies I would guess are extremely interested in the popularity and sales to be had in the current action figure market that Kaiyodo has created with these Revoltech figures. But to my mind there's a very specific set of variables for the success of the Revoltech line and I don't think the other Japanese companies understand this. The Revoltech line is offering line art-styled, detailed sculpts with the best articulation possible using sturdy joints that don't loosen with heavy use. It's a nearly unbeatable package. My first three Revoltechs are among the most fun I've ever had with a figure. They are almost impossible to put down and leave in just one pose. I've had them for months and I'm still discovering new poses. Just like Yamato has the market cornered on Transformable Valkyries, Revoltech has the market cornered on articulated action figures. The Revoltechs are going to be a tough act to follow.

This thread is all kinds of win

wolfx I cringe at the thought of those events Zinjuster I agree. There's so much to laugh at in that show and it's not laughing with them To add to azrael's points, we actually don't know what happened to the VF-19 Custom. Technically, none of the Sound Force mecha belong to the pilots; they are the property of the UN Spacy, Macross 7 Fleet. So it stands to reason the VF-19 Custom is still onboard City 7 or maybe it was just scrapped. Mylene and Ray are obviously still in Sound Force.

Just a note about beam weapons, I think fans are being awfully presumptuous about the advantages and capabilities of beam weaponry, both in the Macross franchise and in science fiction in general. I think there is a lot unspoken about the beam weapons of Macross. They may have disadvatanges that many seem to dismiss outright. It's almost taken for granted that because a beam gun fires an energy beam, it's without fault, limitation or disadvantage. Surely, these are not reasonable assumptions. Perhaps beam weapons have only limited destructive capability when scaled down to fighter size. It's definitely true that a lot of the big beam weapons in Macross are certainly large and very heavy. Beam weapons might require cooling systems that are cumbersome. All the Zentradi mecha that use these big beam guns are terribly heavy compared to the light, nimble Valkyries and sometimes weigh three times as much as a VF (most Zentradi mecha are in the 30-40 tons range). Beam cannons may only be capable of firing a certain number of times then need to cycle down before firing again. By far the most popular beam weapons are small and medium bore guns which suggests they are the most efficient. Perhaps beam weapons are just one of the OverTechnologies that has proven very difficult to build for use on on small, lightweight hardware like the Valkyries. I think it's also assumed that these energy guns are somehow firing faster than ballistic weapons. I don't know about too many other fans, but I don't see a lot of these mecha-scale beam guns in Macross being used at longe ranges and these "laser cannons" sure don't act like lasers. I'd be surprised if Kawamori and Co. ever state these weapons are even capable of light or near light speeds. Anyway, just a few points to consider.

It's an easy fix; one line of dialog. Thank god we invented the "Whatever-device."

Basara was originally going to fly with Laiza in her VF-5000G when he noticed the VF-19P in the same hangar. He then distinctly said to Lawrence that he was "borrowing this" in reference to the VF-19P. The VF-19P also uses HOTAS cockpit controls and is not flown using the non-conventional guitar stick of his VF-19 Custom (though, like the VT-1C Basara pilots earlier, he still uses a guitar to tap and nudge the throttle and stick controls in the desired direction...I kid you not). Ergo, the VF-19P was not Basara's; it belonged to the Zolans.

Run Forest, run!

There are a bunch of scans around here. You might have to search for them. Check the pinned threads at the top. You could also visit my website

I better save some of this information. It'll be useful for profiles somehwere down the line

Ruining? Are you kidding? This may just be the most awesome gun in the universe and certainly the most manly!

It can't hurt to add it, but it can't hurt to have a footnote either, just like I did with the Star Mirage entry. Best to be cautious.

The phallic symbolism is staggering. One might almost think a Japanese anime artist created that

Actually, I can see the Japanese doing something like that. Not for a Valkyrie name in Macross, but they do like words like that. Like adopting "Mehve" for example. I could see a slight alteration in the spelling of "Matryoshka" used for the name of something in anime

Wow. That's a significant find GGemini. I can certainly make note of it on the M3, though as azrael has wisely pointed out it may be prudent to make note that "Phoenix" is perhaps just a nickname. Regardless, this inclusion on the official website is enough to convince me it should at least be included in the M3, even with a footnote. My thanks.

Denrobius I would think the VF-17 development would be relevant given that it became a main variable fighter. Regardless, why wouldn't VF development become a longer and more complex process? Modern fighter development is becoming increasingly expensive and complex, and Macross also has OverTechnology thrown into the mix. As development of the newest technologies progresses, complexity ultimately follows. It's not unreasonable to assume as much. And I think you just answered your own question. Maybe the UN Spacy/New UN Spacy adopted the VF-171 precisely because development times/costs/manufacturing difficulties were growing with each new variable fighter generation. Perhaps the NUNS saw the VF-171 as a way to obtain a better fighter, but allieviate their budgets and allow technology a chance stabilize in the face of ever more cutting edge Valkyries. Only when it became financially/industrially/politically viable to pursue high performance Valkyries once again was the VF-25 introduced, maybe. Ironically, this theory also helps explain why there may be some perceived slowdown in VF development. Like I said, a renaissiance of sorts. And lastly, we still don't know what happened to the VF-19 and VF-22. I get the impression fans are completely writing them off for their lack of appearance in Macross Frontier episode 1. There's only so much Big West could do with the first episode. Like I said, they already included the VF-17-ish and Ghost X-9-ish, so I don't see what all the worry or concern is about. It seems to me the VF-19 and VF-22 may yet appear. And even if they don't, perhaps their fate will eventually be revealed. Moral of the story: don't jump the gun and stay tuned. We might get some answers. Zinjlobular Good point about the obvious plot line connection with the inclusion of the VB-6 Konig. Personally, I'm not sure how the games fit into the chronology. I know at the very least they are official and the Macross Compendium includes their histories in the chronology. But they would ultimately be subservient to the anime productions and given Kawamori's flagrant disregard for continuity, they would be dismissed whenever inconvenient. Still, as a responsible fan, we'd seek to unify the video games within the larger Macross chronology (unless specifically told they were not a part of it) in every area where they aren't contradicted by the anime productions themselves. Sumbody I agree. The VF-171, even if we assumed it's performance was only equal to the old VF-17, is a vast improvement over the VF-11 both in performance and firepower. Another good point about the YF-19 being notoriously difficult to handle. It went through seven test pilots. A fighter isn't much good if the majority of pilots simply can't fly the thing. Also, has anyone ever considered that politics played a big role in the adoption of the VF-171? Think about it, General Galaxy has been playing second place to Shinsei Industry for a long time. Perhaps the UNG voted in someone very partial to General Galaxy. Perhaps even a Zentradi or Meltrandi who thinks very fondly of General Galaxy's designs and decided it was well past time GG was given the coveted main variable fighter contract. Macross007 Not a bad theory and quite simple. Though we know that not every pilot of the VF-19 was a brilliant one (see Emerald Force) Mark Nguyen I see the VF-19 and VF-22 as simply unknowns. Azrael has touched on this issue before and I'm inclined to agree with him. We simply don't know what happened with the VF-19 and VF-22, whether it was in the Macross Plus/Macross 7 era or the Macross Frontier era. There is even dispute over whether the VF-19 was actually mass produced on a large scale (though the appearance of the VF-19P on a fringe world in Macross Dynamite 7 seems to suggest it was). It's also possible these fighters were more widely available but only for a limited number of production years before (as you say) other priorities took over. I've also suggested political reasons came along and radically changed why the NUNS went with the VF-171. The UN Spacy itself was obviously reorganized on a fundamental level and private military companies have really taken center stage. Who knows what changes in mandate have been made in the government of the UNG. All we know from the first episode of Macross Frontier is that there have indeed been many significant changes.

Well first off, let's start with where you went wrong on the time line VF-0 = Rollout 2005, initial deployment 2007, never mass produced. VF-1 = Rollout, initial deployment, mass production 2008 (benefitted a lot from the VF-0 program though) VF-4 = Rollout 2010, initial deployment 2012, replaced VF-1 2020 (12 years between VF-1 and VF-4) VF-5000 = Rollout 2018, mass production 2020 (replaces VF-4 sometime in the 2020s) VF-11 = Rollout 2028, replaces VF-5000 in 2030 VF-17 = development 2026, first flight 2035, estimated deployment time between 2035-2038 VF-19 = official adoption 2041 (YF-19 first flight 2034, Super Nova AVF ends 2040), possible initial deployment 2045 Now as for the rest, you do realize the VF-171 is basically a VF-17 with minor changes, yes? The differences between the VF-17 and the VF-171 amount to no more than the differences between the YF-19/VF-19A and the VF-19F. Ergo, the VF-171 was not a variable fighter designed from the ground up (read previous post) and thus typical "NEW" VF development time frames would not be applicable to the VF-171. We also know from official text on the subject that the VF-171 does not approach the performance levels of the VF-19/VF-22 just as the VF-17 did not (again, see my post above). Hence, for whatever reason the UN Spacy chose to go with a re-designed VF-17, named it the VF-171 and now had a main variable fighter superior to the old VF-11 but not as good as the VF-19/VF-22. Why did the UN Spacy (eventually becoming the New UN Spacy) choose to go the VF-171 route? Perhaps because of cost, politics, manufacturing, all of the above? We don't know because we've had only one episode so far (once again, see post above).

Oh, I couldn't disagree more. The VF-19 Excalibur and VF-22 Sturmvogel II were far ahead of the VF-17D Nightmare in terms of performance. It is true that the VF-17 was a dedicated space variable fighter and it is true that for it's class, the VF-17 was a high performance VF. In fact, even though the VF-17 was much heavier than the VF-11 (11.85 tons versus 9.0 tons), the VF-17 engines made the Nightmare much faster and more maneuverable. But compared to the next generation fighters, the VF-17 was far behind, even in space. The VF-11C has a thrust-to-weight ratio of 6.33 while the VF-17D Nightmare has a thrust-to-weight ratio of 9.28. By comparison, the VF-19F Excalibur has a thrust-to-weight ratio of 16.96 and the VF-22 Sturmvogel thrust-to-weight ratio of 13.61. The only advantage the VF-17 has over next generation variable fighters is solely against the VF-22 in the atmosphere. The cooling problems with the VF-22 engines limit it's thrust to a maximum of 60% in the atmosphere, dropping the VF-22 thrust-to-weight ratio to 8.17 in the atmosphere. Great minds...and all that

Adding to Sumdumgai's already good points, life cycles for fighters are not uniform through history. Some fighters have shorter operational lives than others and not all new fighters stand the test of time. We don't yet know all the details of the new Macross universe. There have been many serious changes. The UN Spacy has apparently been completely reorganized. Private military companies have taken center stage. Older variable fighters have been updated/redesigned and now assume the role of the main line variable fighter. Obviously, things during the mid 2040's changed quite a bit before we got to 2059. Also, the VF-171 is not a completely new design and it stands to reason the development of the VF-17 into the VF-171 was much simpler than creating an entirely new fighter from the ground up. The VF-17 was already a superior fighter to the VF-11 (not only do the statistics prove this, but ace pilot Milia Jenius was impressed with the improved performance of the her VF-17S custom) so as our friend Sum has said, it may have been a logical, more cost effective alternative. Lastly, we have a single episode of Macross Frontier from which to speculate on all the changes in the Macross universe for the past 14 years. That's not much to go on nor is this single episode intended to be an exposition free-for-all that recounts everything in between 2047-2059. It stands to reason that much more of the modern Macross era will be revealed as Macross Frontier progresses. Given the appearance of the both the VF-171 and the "new" X-9 Ghost fighters, both obvious design throwbacks to previous Macross productions, it's not unreasonable to speculate that we may see more of the VF-19/VF-22 as the show goes on.

I agree. Many of the Valkyrie names are known from outside the anime series. And even those names that are mentioned within an anime are almost always within throwaway lines or mentioned once and never again. Not a big deal really and like I said in the naming thread, it's not like the names for the Valkyries are anything particularly creative or memorable.

As I said, if we were attempting to somehow unify the continuity of Macross II with the rest of the Macross franchise, perhaps I could see the Metal Siren special ability as some kind of variation of the PPB system even if it's anachronistic (production -wise) with Macross Plus. Otherwise, it comes across as plot device. Examining each continuity separately, I sure don't see any relation between the Auto Attack Bits and the Ghost X-9 in Macross Plus. The Ghost X-9 is clearly both a conceptual and design descendant of the QF-3000E Ghost from the original SDF Macross (the original Ghost itself being simply an advanced version of unmanned aircraft used in modern militaries). As for Kawamori himself, there is almost nothing to suggest his Valkyries post-Flashback 2012 used any influence from Macross II at all. The Kawamori Valkyries don't utilize design motifs from the Macross II mecha and the technology doesn't adopt rail guns or uber-beam cannons. If Macross Frontier adopts such technologies, they can certainly be logical extensions of established Macross technology, as has already been speculated in other threads regarding the Vajra cannon and the VF-25 cannon from the anime/manga. Fold Boosters and fighter-scale pin-point barriers certainly have ties directly to SDF Macross with no lineage to Macross II (especially since Macross II basically dropped barrier systems entirely). Battroid arm-mounted shields, a Kawamori invention (perhaps also inspired by Gundam, but most likely created to utilize excess Fighter hull in the Battroid mode), are still used in the mecha of Macross Frontier.

This one is a good choice.

That is totally working for me. Nice one.

That's a good explanation. I'd figured it was more fan perception than actual fact. I'd have to agree with you that it sure seems erroneous to me. The fact that a VF-19P was on Zola is quite telling that the VF-19 was well spread/available across UN Spacy space by 2047. And like you said, the Macross 7 fleet was already well stocked (and launched prior to the outcome of the Project Super Nova AVF) which would have little need for the latest fighters until actual war broke out, which is exactly what happened.

I'll admit, most of the official Valkyrie names in Macross have been really uninspired. I think "Nightmare" is about the only name in Macross that hasn't been used that much in other media but naming a black fighter nightmare isn't particularly creative either. Naming conventions are definitely not one of the things I like about the franchise. The naming scheme pretty much just follows real world conventional fighter designations, a naming convention which has itself long since run out of names (See re-use of "Lightning" for the F-35). Plus, nearly every fictional franchise has already used all these names over and over again (Gundam, Star Trek, Babylon 5, Star Wars, Battletech, et cetera). And I mean, there's only so many bird names one can use and all have them have been used and beaten to death. I kinda like Chimera as someone suggested or Gorgon, but they sound almost too fantasy-like in a way. Also, perhaps names like Zealot, Eclipse, Reaver might work. Something that also implies transformation while sounding like sci-fi such as Parallax (a change in angular position) Maybe even have a little fun, like Xenophobe (okay, maybe not, but you have to admit it's kinda appropriate) I'd welcome a move away from the naming schemes of typical military convention. However, to really work for me they'd likely have to go beyond one word names or at least choose something other than conventional titles, mythology or nostalgic words. Perhaps VF-25 Star Wind or something like that would work.

I agree that the time span between the end of Macross7/Dynamite 7 and Macross Frontier turned out to be much less than many of us had feared. I can still remember when the number 2070 was floating around as the setting for MF. Having said that, I think the VF-23, VF-24 and VF-25 is a sound number of Valkyries to develop in the 14 year gap. And as I've stated on this matter before, there may have been other VF-5000-like Valkyries developed as well during those years. Let's also not forget that the UN...er, I should say New UN Spacy has apparently also gone backwards and re-designed the VF-17 into the VF-171. It's possible a type of renaissance took place in variable fighter engineering which saw the rebirth of older technologies which were more cost-effective and efficient. The adoption and re-engineering of a special operations fighter (the VF-17) into a new main line fighter is a pretty telling indication that some policy radically changed. It might also be important to consider that perhaps the Project Super Nova AVF over-estimated what was really possible with variable fighters at the time. Ahem, anyway...