384 replies to this topic

[Gubaba]

I've been trying to think of ways to keep this from falling into the "too long/didn't read" abyss, but I really can't find any way around it. Breaking it up into separate segments seems to be the best way to do it, but that doesn't change the fact that the whole thing is huge.

Anyway, the "whole thing" is still a work in progress, which is another good reason to post it piecemeal...criticism of one part can be addressed in the next part, and so on.

I was hoping I'd get a lot of rebuttals against my findings (or, more accurately, non-findings), but I kinda doubt that will happen. When I first started hinting at this stuff, a number of people dismissed it. Once I let people in on the whole tale, they seem to readily agree (with one exception, who I talked with over PM, and who came up with "answers" to my arguments, like "Maybe Shaloom never said it was a radio show," and then told me that everything I said could be easily rebutted. I wonder if he'll find the WHOLE story so easy to answer...?).

So yes. Five parts to this essay, including an introduction and a conclusion. Part Three and the Conclusion haven't been written yet, due to the fact that I'm still waiting to see a real scan of the Famitsu Magazine interview...which I believe is the deciding factor here.

A disclaimer: it is quite possible that I'm wrong, and I'm ready for that. If that's the case, I'll admit my mistake, apologize to the people involved, and I hope everyone will let me move on. But although I have no 100% conclusive proof yet, I'm sure enough that I'm not wrong to go ahead and start spilling the beans, or opening the can of worms, or whatever you want to call it.

So enjoy my frustration!

Whether or not to conclude it [the love triangle] was quite a last-minute decision, actually. Like, looking at the final scene, inside everyone...I don't have clear words for it, but..."which will win, who will stick together?" It shouldn't become that kind of attitude. "It might not have to be like that," was the feeling I got.
Every member of the staff spoke out about it, but for a quiet and unsociable person like Alto to act naturally, he should love the sky more than girls, right? So, you can't force a decision, you have to let the other people choose their own path.
"Won't the fans be angry about it?"
"Yeah. But, well, that's okay. I'm prepared for that."
That was the kind of conversations I had. Afterwards, when everyone had given different feedback, finally Kawamori-san got a little upset. At least, he looked worried about it.

- Hiroyuki Yoshino, Frontier's Scriptwriter and Series Planner
from Macross F Official Fan Book

The finale will be impressive, because the very director Kawamori wrote the script. We will begin to see it on the screen as soon as the Valkyries take off. You will also see that it will try to make true different dreams he has. You will see.

- "Hiroshi Ohnogi," scriptwriter
from an undocumented radio show

*

I think Yoshino had a lot of fun abusing Sheryl.

- Shoji Kawamori, Chief Director
from the Commentary for Episode 18, in 2059: Memories

Kawamori told me that episode 18 would be completely done with my script.

- "Hiroshi Ohnogi," scriptwriter
from an undocumented radio show

Introduction
The question of whether Hiroshi Ohnogi (a writer who planned out the post-SWI episodes of SDFM, and wrote a number of episodes for the show, as well as being a writer for Orguss, Zeta Gundam, the Area 88 TV Series, Macross Zero, and, weirdly, a Doraemon movie) worked on Macross Frontier is a strange one, considering that it essentially came out of nowhere and was not seriously questioned by anyone until much later.

The initial news was innocuous enough, with a post from the Spanish-language Macross Generation forums, showing a portion of an interview with Kawamori from Famitsu Weekly Magazine, issue #1035. From Macross Generation, it was translated into English and posted at the whatboutmystar live journal (http://community.livejournal.com/whatboutmystar/20651.html?thread=277931). Note specifically the comments for episode 5 (and connecting to episode 18), episode 14, and episodes 21 and 22:

Shoji Kawamori's Famitsu Interview
This is an interview of Shoji Kawamori by Famitsu about his thoughts on the different episodes of MF. 



Notes: 
-Famitsu is one of the most popular video games magazine in Japan, published weekly.

-Hiroshi Ohnogi is a Japanese screenwriter/novelist focusing on anime productions. His works include Gundam, SDF Macross, Macross Zero, RahXephon and Eureka 7

-Haruhiko Mikimoto - manga-ka (Ohnogi attended Keio University in the same years as Mikimoto and Kawamori)

Credits:
-Interview translation: stray (AS, #macrossuki@rizon.irc.net)

-Notes info: Dash_Hunter (AS)



Episode 1 : Kawamori is finally be able to see the culmination of 3 years of work.



Kawamori on Episode 2: "I always dreamed that Minmay would have an older sister and I felt exactly that when we designed the mini duet of Ranka and Sheryl at the observatory."



Kawamori on Episode 4: "This was a debt to Mikimoto, who forgave me for Minmay winning her pageant. Not only him, but Matsuda Seiko (Mikimoto's inspiration for creating Minmay) never won anything as an unknown. As I was writing the script, I thought to prove that Mikimoto would have been right."



Kawamori on Episode 5: "This episode was written to definitively establish Sheryl as Ranka's big sister, but when we finished the script we discovered a new character through her qualities as a woman. This was our most edited script, and I still wasn't convinced this was an important character for Frontier. But Risa Ebata convinced me to give the changes a chance, and when I saw the fan response, I didn't give credit. Hours later we were in a conference with Big West to send a list of changes for episode 6 to our secondary studio."



Connecting to Episode 18 : Though the script has been changed as early as Episode 5 to work Sheryl's character into the story, expanding Sheryl's storyline is another matter, as Kawamori isn't sure which direction Sheryl should take, so Ohnogi asked to leave everything into his hands; he was given free reign over Episode 18+ onwards as Kawamori watched. Here, this is where Sheryl's character is "remade" and polished in Episode 22.



Episode 7: This episode was a gift to the mecha fans. Completely dedicated to them.



Episode 10 : In the second half, Kawamori's cameo [the director] was unplanned. However, it [Ranka's fame] ended up being counterproductive, as Ranka in future episodes demanded much, so Kawamori believes her fame doesn't bring her good fortune. (The phrasing was vague in some parts, but this is the best I could do.)



Kawamori on Episode 12 : "I only made this episode to make people angry, and from there, the kira. Someone who arrives to a battle singing nowadays isn't as crazy as in the time of Macross 7." (stray: "I think the gist of 12 is that he wanted to go from raaaage... to.... kira!")



Kawamori on Episode 14 : "Here I wanted to pay homage to the work of a great friend (Ohnogi)."



Episode 16 : Another idea of Mikimoto's. To show how a romantic idea (singing) under the perspective of whatever government lose it's romantic meaning to become an instrument of war.



Kawamori on Episode 17 : He's teasing fans who didn't get the pineapple salad concept; it's not fatal for Skull Leaders, just womanizers. That Roy was Skull Leader and a womanizer was just a coincidence.



Kawamori on Episode 20 : "This was the most difficult episode I've had to direct in my career. I read in diverse forums that people were sad. The staff was the same way. But we were able to express exactly what we intended: the desperation."



Kawamori on Episode 21 : "This was the end of a cycle full of trying different things. The innocent version of Ranka Lee was different from the message we were trying to convey. Ohnogi then sent her on a voyage of self discovery. It was hard for us, and for her."



Kawamori on Episode 22 : "Humility is the word. Ohnogi stopped here to polish sheryl. This episode is full of tests of humility."



Episode 23 : Family, the simple life. Dreams and actions. A good episode to show the real motivations of the main characters.



Kawamori on Episode 24 : "The last frontier of the heart is yourself. The fans loved the scenes of Alto and Sheryl, and I must say, so did I! They look great on screen. (laughs)"



Episode 25 was Kawamori's dream made reality.



Q1: How would you define frontier with respect to your previous work?


Kawamori : "While Macross plus is a history where conflict arises in profound mental and physical trauma, adding emotional problems, in Frontier I wanted to express the type of conflict that could occur if it is not possible to understand suitably. To continue, Frontier is an example of the tragedies that can occur when [one] could not understand someone, by the fault of lacking a suitable language."



Kawamori on Macross Frontier Movie : The Macross Frontier movie will follow the guideline of "Do You Remember Love, I'd like for all to see Frontier on the big screen, with great sound."

Here it was made clear that Ohnogi was a pivotal figure for Frontier in general and Sheryl in particular.

The episode 14 note is rather puzzling, but was extensively elaborated on later. But more about that later.

It's worth pointing out that some of this IS verifiably accurate. For example, there is a scan going around of the Famitsu interview, unfortunately incomplete, but "Q1" and Kawamori's answer are taken verbatim from it. It's easily possible that a lot of the "interview" here is taken from Kawamori's actual words. However, the rest of the article, while too small in the scan to actually read, is clearly in standard interview format, with no episode commentary, unless the comments are worked into the text.

I should note at this point that the documentation for Ohnogi's involvement is sparse. Essentially, it comes down to two sources:
1. The Kawamori Interview from Famistu #1035, found (but not scanned) and translated into Spanish by Shaloom of Macross Generation.
2. Radio Interviews, transcribed (but not recorded) and translated into Spanish by Shaloom of Macross Generation.
Additionally, there are references to several "novels" about Macross by Ohnogi. These are documented only by Shaloom of Macross Generation.

Part One: Liner Notes and "Novels"
Part Two: The Radio Interviews
Part Three: The Famitsu Interview
Conclusion

Edited by Gubaba, 03 June 2009 - 10:02 PM.

[dreamweaver13]

Cool. i've been waiting for this. keep em coming.

[Bri]

I applaud your translating efforts and zeal to get to the bottom of things Gubaba. But would it be weird as to just send an email to studio Satelight and ask them?

Edited by Bri, 03 June 2009 - 03:48 AM.

[sketchley]

I applaud your translating efforts and zeal to get to the bottom of things Gubaba. But would it be weird as to just send an email to studio Satelight and ask them?

Because there are some English speaking fans that need what Gubaba is doing to get the point. A short, paraphrased e-mail message won't cut it for them, and we'd be back to square one with them.

[Gubaba]

Because there are some English speaking fans that need what Gubaba is doing to get the point. A short, paraphrased e-mail message won't cut it for them, and we'd be back to square one with them.

Actually...it's more embarrassing than that.

If I had thought of writing Satelight, I would've. It just never occurred to me. Instead, I went on a research odyssey.

And I dunno about people really NEEDING it. I posted the Yoshino interview and the Kawamori Commenary (so far) over at AnimeSuki, and most everyone pretty much agreed that they'd been bamboozled.

Here, I PM'd a few people after the last "Ohnogi Outbreak" in the news thread, and almost everyone said, "Oh. Yeah. That doesn't really pass the smell test, does it?" or words to that effect.

That said, there are still one or two holdouts, so we'll see.

[mike_s_6]

1. The Kawamori Interview from Famistu #1035, found (but not scanned) and translated into Spanish by Shaloom of Macross Generation.

Could you please post this too, no matter how bad the quality is? Let's label it exhibit X

[Gubaba]

Could you please post this too, no matter how bad the quality is? Let's label it exhibit X

Good idea. I was saving it all for part three, but here you go:

Here's the too-small-to-read scan of the whole article. For the green page, the first section says "About Macross Frontier." The second says "About Macross Ace Frontier." Again, notice that's it's clearly an interview, not episode commentary (unless, of course, the commentary is embedded in Kawamori's answers).
 kawaroriint.jpg   73.83K   47 downloads

Here's detail of the right-hand page of the article. The beginning of this is the same as the answer to "Q1" from the "translated" interview...the bit about the difference between the themes of Macross Plus and Frontier.
 762280.jpg   57.22K   24 downloads

Now, bishopcruz should be receiving a copy of the magazine soon, so better scans should be available. We just don't know when.

[Swampstorm]

Actually...it's more embarrassing than that.

If I had thought of writing Satelight, I would've. It just never occurred to me. Instead, I went on a research odyssey.

Oh, and if you do get around to writing them, could you post up the response as well? It could be exhibit Y.

[dreamweaver13]

As a person who relishes every bit of trivia on a specific matter of interest, I certainly welcome (and appreciate) any effort to summarize interviews and findings about the intricacies of Macross Frontier. For me, the ultimate resolution of the mystery (i.e. whether or not ohnogi had anything to do with Frontier) is, while certainly interesting, a secondary priority to the wealth of information that could be shared in the process. For this, it's the journey that drives me, more than the destination. So with that I say thankee-sai and carry on.

[Gubaba]

Introduction

Part One: Liner Notes and "Novels"
We didn't really hear much more until Shaloom of Macross Generation starting compiling his "liner notes" for the FWF-MG fansubs of the series. They made no pretense to being official documents, but rather a massive collection of everything Shaloom had read, heard, or noticed in the show.

(What caught MY attention about them was the existence of SDFM "novels" and short stories about which I had never heard. Since I was in the "collection stage" of my Complete Macross Translation Project, to find out about an unknown wealth of material was simultaneously enthralling and disheartening. Enthralling because there was more out there, disheartening because it meant a lot more work for me.)

The entire body of notes (in English) is online at http://forums.animes...722#post2228722 and it goes on for quite a couple of dozen pages. At the time of this writing, there are no notes for Episode 25.

I'll only quote the relevant portions (and a couple of oddities).

Most of the notes for the first clutch of episodes are completely accurate, except for some unverified stuff (show of hands, please. Who here has played Macross Love Stories and gotten to the really difficult-to-find secret ending involving panty-chasing? Anyone? Anyone? I thought as much).

It's when we get to the middle episodes that the questionable stuff starts showing up, starting with episode 10:
- When the director of the film take Rankas hand and she steps up the stairs, it is an homenage [sic] to a scene in the Super Dimension Fortress Macross novels, written by Sukehiro Tomita.

- In said novels, the director of the film Shao Pai Long also takes the hand of Minmay and says the same lines as the director in Macross Frontier. Tomita makes an analogy to the steps of Minmay "climbing the steps of fame". The cinema audience then gives thunderous applause and Hikaru Ichijo finalizes the chapter by saying "Congratulations, Minmay".

Now, there are no Macross "novels" by Tomita. He wrote a story in "Dreaming Prelude: My Fair Minmay," but that one's about the Miss Macross Contest. There is only one Macross novel which covers Shao Pai Long, and it's by Toshiki Inoue (he wrote the three-volume novelization of SDFM. "Shao Pai Long" appears in volume three). However, no scene like the one described above appears in the book.

The one that really frosts me is this, from Episode 11:
- The scene with Ranka and her cookies seeing the fold in the distance makes reference to a short story. It is in the collection of shorts "Studio Nue Entertainment Bible", called "Today I wanted to give you...." In it, Minmay wanted to give Hikaru an autographed record of hers, for his birthday, but Hikaru has to escort Misa back to earth and can´t go on the date with Minmay. He sends Max Jenius in his stead.

It frosts me because I sought out and bought both volumes of the Studio Nue Entertainment Bibles (not really expensive, but not cheap, either), and the story isn't in either of them. In fact, there are NO stories contained the books...just a bunch of magazine columns reprinted at the end of Volume 2.

After this, everything goes REALLY crazy:

From Episode 13:
- Sheryls line "You stop that guy, even if it kills you" is a reference to the Macross TV series novels, written by Hiroshi Ohnogi. It is referent to a dialogue Misa has with Hikaru, while they are escaping Bodolzas fortress.

- Michaels line ( which was translated differently by the guys in the Macross Generation forum than most translations... according to them it says "She is a good woman, and you are important to her" ) is also a line Max Jenius uttered, when Hikaru and him go to the Arcade Center to have some fun. This is, again, the TV series novels, written by Ohnogi.

From Episode 14:
- The line of Elmo "It's the day where the history of the whole galaxy will change" is a reference to the novels written by Ohnogi ( I´ll keep the reference this short for the future ), where the manager of Lynn Minmay says the same previous to the first showing of Shao Pai Long.

- The line of Ranka to Ozma "If you are going to regret it, then give it your all and be successful" is a reference to dialogue between Isamu Dyson and Myung Fang Lone in the Macross Plus novel, written by Ohnogi, when he "borrows" the just built plane of Guld Bowman and Myung tells him not to do it.

(I've included the last reference specifically because Ohnogi did NOT work on Macross Plus.)

- The damage Island 1 receives from the Vajra and the dead of civilians who are expulsed into space is a reference to the enormous damage the SDF-1 received in the novels by Ohnogi. In said novels, Ohnogi relates that the Zentraedi shots caused much more damage than was shown in the TV series.

- The scene where Sheryl asks Alto to not die is reference to the novels by Ohnogi, where Hikaru is going on the offensive to rescue Minmay from Kvamzin. Misa asks him to rescue Minmay but begs him to promise her that he won't die.

From Episode 16
- The dialogue of Ram Hoa "1,2,3,4... the new lieutenant is amazing, isn´t he?" is a reference to Claudia LaSalle mocking Misa Hayase about the recent promotion of Hikaru to first lieutenant, in the novels by Ohnogi.

From Episode 18:
- Operation “Cinderellas Horn” is a reference to operation “Queen’s Horn”, which is an military emergency operation in Macross City for an Zentraedi Attack. This plan is commented upon by Admiral Global to Misa Hayase, in case that Kvamzin Kravsheera manages to conquer Macross City, to detonate the whole city to overload the pin point barrier of the SDF-1 and therefore evaporate the city. This is from the novels by Ohnogi.

- The scene of Sheryl crying in the rain, while Ranka is shown on the screen at her press conference is a reference to a very similar scene of Misa Hayase crying disconsolatedly in the rain, while on holographic screens Minmay is giving a press conference. This is from the novels by Ohnogi.

(Not really relevant to this part of the discussion, but still rather interesting, are these two notes; the first from Episode 16, the second from Episode 18:
- The "Call up Monster Girl" design on the König Monster was designed by Risa Ebata, solicited by Kawamori.

- The nose art of “Call Up Monster Girl” is a piece of art which Ohnogi asked from Risa Ebata for the König Monster.)

But there is a lot of talk throughout the notes about the "novels" of Ohnogi. Naturally, these were what I was most interested in. I asked Magnuskn (who, by the way, is a stand-up guy and should in no way be blamed for this mess) to ask Shaloom about them for me.

He responded quite quickly, translating an oddly defensive missive by Shaloom about how MacrossWorld and the Compendium are incomplete, and have no information about the Sky Angels doujinshi by the Macross Attack Team or the seven "novels" of Ohnogi. Shaloom stressed that the novels are not canonical, and thus would not be of much interest to most Macross fans.

So I checked Japanese wikipedia. I checked amazon.co.jp. I checked several Japanese Macross fansites I found. There was nothing about them. I finally asked at Macross.co.jp, where a member informed me that Ohnogi had only written one Macross novel: Misa Hayase - White Reminiscences. I have that one, and it doesn't contain anything that Shaloom talks about (the entire novel is about Misa meeting and falling in love with Riber).

(It's worth mentioning here that as far as "official" SDFM novels and stories go, there are a few: Dreaming Prelude~My Fair Minmay by the entire SDFM writing team (1983), The three-volume novelization of SDFM by Toshiki Inoue (1983), Misa Hayase: White Reminiscences (1984) by Hiroshi Ohnogi, and two short stories in Macross Perfect Memory ("The Plundering Fleet" by Kenichi Matsuzaki and "The Lost Two Years" by Kawamori) (1984).)

Shaloom often quotes from the stories at length, giving entire scenes, synopses, and dialogue. Some of them, like Max keeping a photo of Milia in his helmet, are rather touching. Always in them, Minmay's dialogue and situations are given to Ranka, Misa's to Sheryl, and Michael is a mix of Max and Focker.

Later, bishopcruz approached Shaloom to ask about the "novels." According to the answer he got, they aren't novels at all, but rather short stories, serialized in "magazines like Animage and Out" between 1986 and 1988*, and were never reprinted. Shaloom also mentioned again that they aren't canonical. Bishopcruz asked which issues they were in, and Shaloom replied that they were serialized, so that any issue of the magazines should contain a little bit of a story. Shaloom also said that he himself only had a few of the issues, and had no scanner or any way to upload them. Bishopcruz asked which issues Shaloom owned, and got no response.

I asked around at MacrossWorld and found a few people who had issues of Animage from that period. Two said that there were no such stories in them (the third never responded). I also found a website (http://homepage2.nifty.com/out-site/) with detailed contents for every issue of Out ever printed. No mention of any Macross stories, and only one (unconnected) reference to Ohnogi.

By this point, I was almost convinced that the stories didn't exist, and that Shaloom was just making the whole thing up. But I really hadn't found out much...Just that the Studio Nue Entertainment Bibles didn't have any stories, and that a couple of people who had a few issues of Animage hadn't seen any Macross stories in them. Also that the Japanese fans had no idea what I was talking about when I asked them. Really, it wasn't much to go on. The Entertainment Bible mix-up could have been just a simple mistake. Ditto Shaloom saying the Ohnogi wrote the Macross Plus novel, when in actuality it was by Keiko Nobumoto, who also wrote the script for Plus. It might be an innocent error on Shaloom's part (but more about that later).

Not being able to find something is of course not the same as proving it doesn't exist, but it should put the burden of proof onto Shaloom to provide some evidence, since he seems to be the only person with access to this material.

By the way, if any Macrossworld members DO have any of these stories, please let me know. I'd love to have confirmation here one way or another, and if they do exist, I would really love to translate them.

* This doesn't fit very well with other portions of the notes. Again, when asked, Shaloom said the stories were published between 1986 and 1988. but in one of the Ohnogi Radio interviews, Ohnogi says that in Episode 14, "Kawamori put some tributes to the novels of Macross TV Series written in 1983." These would, according to the Episode notes, be his own novels. And yet, Ohnogi himself says in the interview in the back of Misa Hayase: White Reminiscences (again, published in 1984) that it's his first novel. It's possible to harmonize all of this (White Reminiscences was written first in 1983, followed in quick succesion by other novels, which weren't published until much later, or that Ohnogi is simply misremembering). But it's just one of many such mistakes.

Part Two: The Radio Interviews
Part Three: The Famitsu Interview
Conclusion

[josue]

Fast reply.

Gubaba thanks for the effort... But i would like to point one more thing. Who does the commentation for the MacF DVDs? Isn't there Yoshino, Kawamori and Kikuchi? (IF I'm wrong please correct me I don't have the time to check ) I guess that should be proof enough that Ohnogi didn't participate at ALL in Frontier.

Edited by josue, 03 June 2009 - 10:32 PM.

[dreamweaver13]

Fast reply.

Gubaba thanks for the effort... But i would like to point one more thing. Who does the commentation for the MacF DVDs? Isn't there Yoshino, Kawamori and Kikuchi? I guess that should be proof enough that Ohnogi didn't participate at ALL in Frontier.

from the intro of gubaba's essay (or dare i say, thesis? ), it's not so much about Ohnogi being a credited writer of MF, but more of the theory that most of the MF dialogue was supposedly lifted from, or inspired by, alleged previous works of Ohnogi.

[ErikElvis]

May I ask who this Ohnogi is?

[mike_s_6]

May I ask who this Ohnogi is?

In a nutshell, he is a writer who has worked with previous Macross installations, and whose involvement with Macross Frontier is in question and is quite controversial(-ized). The issue in question is if he indeed wrote for Macross F, and the authenticity of the materials that these circumstances are based on. It has upset many Ranka fans as he is depicted as a staunch Sheryl supporter in these "interviews".

[Gubaba]

May I ask who this Ohnogi is?

You may, but you'd look a little foolish for doing so, since I already said this in the first post:

Introduction
The question of whether Hiroshi Ohnogi (a writer who planned out the post-SWI episodes of SDFM, and wrote a number of episodes for the show, as well as being a writer for Orguss, Zeta Gundam, the Area 88 TV Series, Macross Zero, and, weirdly, a Doraemon movie) worked on Macross Frontier is a strange one, considering that it essentially came out of nowhere and was not seriously questioned by anyone until much later.

[Gubaba]

from the intro of gubaba's essay (or dare i say, thesis? ), it's not so much about Ohnogi being a credited writer of MF, but more of the theory that most of the MF dialogue was supposedly lifted from, or inspired by, alleged previous works of Ohnogi.

No, it IS about Ohnogi being a credited writer. The homages to his supposed "novels" are just the set-up.

Of course, he isn't credited anywhere, which should be enough for most people...

In a nutshell, he is a writer who has worked with previous Macross installations, and whose involvement with Macross Frontier is in question and is quite controversial(-ized). The issue in question is if he indeed wrote for Macross F, and the authenticity of the materials that these circumstances are based on. It has upset many Ranka fans as he is depicted as a staunch Sheryl supporter in these "interviews".

It's not so much the Sheryl-fan mentality that bothers me, it's the presentation of Kawamori as a dithering, out-of-touch jerk who cares about only Ranka and nothing else.

So that AnimeSuki, for example, you have people already calling for Kawamori's head on a platter because Ohnogi's not working on the movie.

[VF5SS]

People have been hating Kawamori since Macross 7 because he's not continuing the franchise in the way they want it. This Ohnogi nugget is just a way for them to keep branding him as the George Lucas of anime.

[Swampstorm]

It's not so much the Sheryl-fan mentality that bothers me, it's the presentation of Kawamori as a dithering, out-of-touch jerk who cares about only Ranka and nothing else.

So that AnimeSuki, for example, you have people already calling for Kawamori's head on a platter because Ohnogi's not working on the movie.

Actually, I don't think that the Ohnogi question itself was what lead to the perception of Kawamori as a "troll". I suspect it had more to do with a tongue-in-cheek statement that he apparently made regarding polyamory, after the series ended.

That remark has always struck me as somewhat baffling from a storyline perspective, as Michael was always trying to get Alto to make a choice either way regarding his feelings, and Michael's death seemed to really drive home that concept. Likewise, the translations that you made suggest that this theme was not one that was addressed specifically in series, but rather one expressed after the fact.

As such, I think that perception of Kawamori as being "out-of-touch" depends largely on whether you take that remark seriously or not.

Even in reading those "Ohnogi interviews", I didn't specifically see an 'Ohnogi = Sheryl/Kawamori = Ranka' divide until reading FV's "analysis" of those "interviews". Likewise, that perception depends largely on whether you take FV's remarks seriously or not.

[Gubaba]

Actually, I don't think that the Ohnogi question itself was what lead to the perception of Kawamori as a "troll". I suspect it had more to do with a tongue-in-cheek statement that he apparently made regarding polyamory, after the series ended.

That remark has always struck me as somewhat baffling from a storyline perspective, as Michael was always trying to get Alto to make a choice either way regarding his feelings, and Michael's death seemed to really drive home that concept. Likewise, the translations that you made suggest that this theme was not one that was addressed specifically in series, but rather one expressed after the fact.

As such, I think that perception of Kawamori as being "out-of-touch" depends largely on whether you take that remark seriously or not.

Even in reading those "Ohnogi interviews", I didn't specifically see an 'Ohnogi = Sheryl/Kawamori = Ranka' divide until reading FV's "analysis" of those "interviews". Likewise, that perception depends largely on whether you take FV's remarks seriously or not.

Did Kawamori really make that remark? The Yoshino interview seems to indicate that the unresolved love triangle was all his (Yoshino's) doing, and that Kawamori was against it initially.

EDIT: Ha! Found a listing for this supposed comment of Kawamori's:

http://74.125.95.132...N...=clnk&gl=us

And guess where it's supposed to be from? FAMITSU!

I bet Kawamori never said it.

FURTHER EDIT: Actually, looking at the scan of the interview, part of it gets cut off, but he DOES say that some animals are polygamous. Is that an endorsement of polygamy? I don't know.

Edited by Gubaba, 04 June 2009 - 06:08 PM.

[Macross007]

Did Kawamori really make that remark? The Yoshino interview seems to indicate that the unresolved love triangle was all his (Yoshino's) doing, and that Kawamori was against it initially.

EDIT: Ha! Found a listing for this supposed comment of Kawamori's:

http://74.125.95.132...N...=clnk&gl=us

And guess where it's supposed to be from? FAMITSU!

I bet Kawamori never said it.

FURTHER EDIT: Actually, looking at the scan of the interview, part of it gets cut off, but he DOES say that some animals are polygamous. Is that an endorsement of polygamy? I don't know.

Polygamy in Macross = Epic fail. Plain and simple. I really hope the idea never crossed Kawamori san mind.

[Gubaba]

Polygamy in Macross = Epic fail. Plain and simple. I really hope the idea never crossed Kawamori san mind.

Yet another reason why we need a good complete scan of Famitsu article.

It's Famitsu #1035, from Oct. 2008.

Please, somebody! Find it!

[josue]

I think we're losing track of the topic. Just accept that Ohnogi had nothing to do with Frontier. That's it.

And even if Kawamori said something about poligamy I would think it is just a joke.

[Gubaba]

Okay...I just sent the email off the Satelight. It's going to the webmaster, so I don't know how long it will take to get someone who actually knows about the production details to listen.

Essentially, I thanked them for making Macross F, but that there was rumor going around that Ohnogi had written episodes 18~24. I said that I couldn't find any evidence for this, and thought it wasn't true, but thought I'd ask anyway.

I also included a link to the relevant post at Animesuki, so that they could read the English version of the first Bobby/Ohnogi interview.

I'll let you all know as soon as I get a response.

Likewise, much earlier this week, I sent off an email to Shaloom asking him about the inconsistencies between the official books and his liner notes. Still waiting for an answer.

[dreamweaver13]

I think we're losing track of the topic. Just accept that Ohnogi had nothing to do with Frontier. That's it.

And even if Kawamori said something about poligamy I would think it is just a joke.

We can't just do that! we pick the red pill.

[Gubaba]

Introduction

Part One: Liner Notes and "Novels"

Part Two: "Bobby" "interviews" "Ohnogi"
The later parts of the liner notes are given to radio interviews of Ohnogi. These interviews are conducted by voice actor Kenta Miyake in the character of Bobby Margot. As such, Bobby is kind of playing the situation for laughs, while Ohnogi is trying to stay serious. But reading them is a weird experience, because Ohnogi, while professing a lot of repsect for Kawamori, also shows him in a very bad light...indecisive, insecure, and continually at odds with the staff, primarily over the issue of Ranka and Sheryl. He seems out of touch with what the staff and Ohnogi want to do, which is also, according to both Ohnogi and Bobby, what the fans want to see. Ohnogi is presented as the man who saved Frontier, and Kawamori is presented as the man who almost ruined it.

The interviews begin with this introduction from Shaloom:
The inclusion of Hiroshi Ohnogi to the staff of Macross Frontier caused furor in various Japanese forums, and actor Kenta Miyake (Bobby Margo) has invited him to the Macross Radio program for an interview. The program was broadcast on the Radio MBS, August 9, 2008.

Unfortunately, this is also where the problems begin. What furor? And what Macross Radio program? For the furor among Japanese fans, the most likely place to go would be the official Frontier BBS. Here is the google search for the site and the name "Ohnogi."
http://www.google.co...f...mp;oq=&aqi=

As you can see, there are only two hits, neither of them having anything to do with Ohnogi writing Frontier.

It's harder, of course, to find anything by searching 2chan, but after a few months of searching the relevant boards, I've found nothing. If someone else can find something, I'll be happy to accept it.

As for the "Macross Radio Show" which Shaloom states as being on MBS, this cannot be the official Macross Radio show, because all of the episodes are available for download on nicosound, and not one of them contains Bobby interviewing anyone . Even if you don't know or understand Japanese, Bobby's voice is HIGHLY distinctive, and he is nowhere present on the episodes made during Frontier's run (he was, however, present on RADIO MACROSS, the radio show building up to the premiere of Frontier...but that would've been before Ohnogi was brought on board).

When asked about this, Shaloom said that he was in Japan for most of Frontier's run, and that there was a service whereby for 500 yen (about five U.S. dollars), one could download special radio shows to one's cell phone, and listen to them as many times as one liked, which is how he managed to do a translation of the interviews. He also said it was a different radio program than the one listed elsewhere.

However, neither the Macross F website nor Japanese Wikipedia show any radio show other than the main one (which, admittedly, has gone through several name changes), which is hosted by the voice actors for Alto, Michael, and Ranka, with occasional guest appearances by other voice actors (but no staff, so far).

So we're left with a downloadable radio show, of which no recordings exist on the web, that was not promoted on the official website, and does not appear to be known by anyone except Shaloom.

By the way, here's the google search for "Macross F," "Ohnogi," "Bobby," and "Interview": http://www.google.co...f...mp;oq=&aqi=

Nine hits. None of which is relevant.

Much of the information from these interviews is unverifiable, about conversations between Kawamori and Ohnogi, plans for events and character developments that were ultimately abandoned, but there are several factual errors that creep into the interviews. I'll confine myself to the two that I think are most puzzling.

First, this bit:
Bobby: I heard you had a very long meeting with Kawamori-sama about the opening [Lion].

Ohnogi: Kawamori told me that episode 18 would be completely done with my script. This episode had also been scheduled for the premiere of the new opening, strangely named "Lion". Do I mentioned that is how I think of Sheryl? Mrs Yoko Kanno and I had worked in Macross Plus so Kawamori and I joined immediately to work the opening concept. Kawamori wanted to send a "preview" to what they will see in subsequent episodes. There is a lot of symbolism of what will happen, so do not miss it and be observers.

What's so strange about this is that Ohnogi DIDN'T work on Macross Plus, and I doubt he could have been mistaken and thought he did.

The second quotation was originally one of my favorite bits of the interviews. Since I still like it, I'll quote it in full:
HO: Indeed. Actually, it is more obvious for the veteran fans. It is a homenage to the goodbye scene between Hikaru Ichijyo and Minmay in the episode “Aiwa Nagareru”. It is something I wanted to do.

B: Tell us, Hiroshi-kun! Please!

HO: Well, the original scene, which you surely remember, was written by my teacher Tsukehiro Tomita-sama y splendidly directed by my mentor and almost-father of everyone of us at Studio Nue: Noburo Ishiguro-sama. I remember that when I was at university and director Kawamori insisted on me coming to the studio and helping them, because they needed script writers, I arrived just when Tomita-sama gave this booklet to post-production and he would go on to write DYRL. I remember that I couldn´t stop reading this scene, I was fascinated by the timing, the dialogue, the emotions, the surroundings. I thought that so many things in my heart would not be well drawn and was surprised again when we saw the finished episode in the studio. I was moved very, very much by this scene. The image surpassed my imagination and this was done by Ishiguro-sama. I remember that then every night, for three months, I wrote and re-wrote again this scene, ripped up the papers and wrote it once more. With other characters, with me and my wife, me and my muses, characters of other series on which I was working on. And finally I wrote a mini-script with the names kept in blank and stashed this away for years.

B: Names kept in blank?

HO: Indeed. I didn´t know which characters I would use in that scene. I didn´t even know if I´d use it for another series which wasn´t Macross. When in pre-production Kawamori told me about his idea that Sheryl would go to Alto and confess to him, my mini-script came to my mind and I asked him for two hours time. I went to my house and went to my closet and searched for the sheets. I thought it would be a good homenage. Even while it took me more than two hours, I could not find the box in which I kept them( laughter ).

B: So Sheryl would confess herself? I don´t believe it!

HO: I couldn´t believe it either!

B: I can imagine the angry face of the director when you told him ( voice of angry Bobby ) “One moment! Sheryl and Alto will do the scene this way!”

HO: It wasn´t exactly like that ( nervous laughter ). Director Kawamori was very interested in seeing what I had in mind. When I read the script to him, which reflects dialogues of a man and a woman which love each other, but do not want to say it, knowing that they could die in the coming battle, the only thing Kawamori told me was “You are defining the triangle!”. We then had a very long debate. He desired to reserve things for himself for the final episode. But then I told him “Tomita-san wrote Aiwa Nagareru badly? Hikaru kisses Minmay with much passion, this did not define the finale in Macross. The series needs a classic moment which the fans will remember in 25 years, like Tomita-sama and Ishiguro-sama did it, risking it all for a kiss on screen.”

B: And what did the director say to this?

HO: He was at the point of saying something, but then stopped and kept thinking. He asked me to leave him alone. So I went out of his office and went home to wait for his answer, as it was already very late. I remember that Risa Ebata sent me an email this night, that director Kawamori didn´t get out of the studio until the next day, closed off in his office. Erasing and writing things. I told her not to worry and that what the director would decide, would be the best for the series. The next day I got a message on my cellphone from Kawamori : “You are right, it will be a fantastic scene”. And almost immediately, I received an email from Ebata-san, saying “I am so happy, I am crying, my pretty baby finally got her first kiss of love, thank you!” I suppose she was reading the script at the time ( laughter ). I understand that she alone made the animation of Alto and Sheryl, because she wasn’t disposed to leave to others the kiss of her “pretty baby”. I think she is Sheryl-fan number one! ( laughter ). And I believe it came out very well, I am very satisfied how it appeared in the episode.

It's a great story, isn't it? It has drama, human interest, the writer standing up against the director for something he believes in, and succeeds, giving both the staff and the fans exactly what they want.

But there's one huge, gaping problem with it:

Tomita didn't write "Ai wa Nagareru."

Kenichi Matsuzaki did. Now, again, I suppose Ohnogi could have made a mistake here, but it seems incredible that he would remember so much in such detail, but forget who wrote the script that he loved so much.

Of course, it also seems incredible that Shaloom would make that same mistake, since in every Macross book I've checked (Perfect Memory, Macross Grafitti, My Fair Minmay) and on Japanese Wikipedia, Matsuzaki is credited for the episode. Tomita did write many episodes (and co-wrote DYRL), but he didn't do that one.

It's also worth noting that none of books about Frontier mention anything about Ohnogi working the show (besides writing the script for Macross Zero, some portions of which were used in episode 10). I'll get into 2059: Memories in part three, because it's more pertinent there, but neither it, nor the Official Fan Book, nor the liner notes for Volume Nine of the DVDs (which contain several long staff interviews) say anything about him. Some Macross World members have told me that he didn't want credit, and so kept his name out of the staff list, but would someone who didn't want credit go on an (admittedly impossible-to-find) radio show and claim credit? And if he was so vital to the production, why do none of the staff talk about his contributions? Indeed, some of them would be stealing credit from him, since Yoshino, Kikuchi, and Kawamori all talk about things that Ohnogi reportedly says that HE brought to the table.

Part Three: The Famitsu Interview
Conclusion

Edited by Gubaba, 04 June 2009 - 08:30 PM.

[azrael]

We can't just do that! we pick the red pill.

That and we're trying to bury this Ohnogi-worked-on-MF-nonsense under 1000 ft of dirt, several layers of concrete, about 10m thick solid titanium-composite armor and a moat with sharks with freakin-lasers on their heads. Nothing like disproving (i.e. beating) something down, shooting it, poisoning it, then throwing it into a sack and tossing it into a river. Oh wait, most of that didn't work on the last guy that happened to.

[Gubaba]

I should add that, until I get my hands on a good scan of the Famitsu Interview, this is all I have.

I don't think I've conclusively disproven anything, but I hope I've shown that the information we've received from Shaloom is, at best, not error-free. And the onus should be on him to provide some evidence...either scans of the Ohnogi stories, or mp3s of the radio interview...hell, even a Japanese website listing them as existing would be a good start.

EDIT: I've been checking Macross Generation forums for the last couple of days, and, strangely, there seems to be no mention of any of this yet...

Edited by Gubaba, 04 June 2009 - 09:16 PM.

[shan]

I'm finding that Ohnogi interview more and more silly than I did before. This is what we get for living outside japan. We couldn't tell right away if the source is authentic or not so it's easy to get fooled. Even more so, interviews like this tend to color one's perception of the show. Atleast it did mine for a little while. I'd be happy if this is completely disproved. It'll feel weird to have the tides turn, the Ohnogi issue is filled with holes now. It is fun however to watch Gubaba "bury this Ohnogi-worked-on-MF-nonsense under 1000 ft of dirt, several layers of concrete, about 10m thick solid titanium-composite armor and a moat with sharks with freakin-lasers on their heads" from the sidelines.

[josue]

As for the "Macross Radio Show" which Shaloom states as being on MBS, this cannot be the official Macross Radio show, because all of the episodes are available for download on nicosound, and not one of them contains Bobby interviewing anyone . Even if you don't know or understand Japanese, Bobby's voice is HIGHLY distinctive, and he is nowhere present on the episodes made during Frontier's run (he was, however, present on RADIO MACROSS, the radio show building up to the premiere of Frontier...but that would've been before Ohnogi was brought on board).

When asked about this, Shaloom said that he was in Japan for most of Frontier's run, and that there was a service whereby for 500 yen (about five U.S. dollars), one could download special radio shows to one's cell phone, and listen to them as many times as one liked, which is how he managed to do a translation of the interviews. He also said it was a different radio program than the one listed elsewhere.

However, neither the Macross F website nor Japanese Wikipedia show any radio show other than the main one (which, admittedly, has gone through several name changes), which is hosted by the voice actors for Alto, Michael, and Ranka, with occasional guest appearances by other voice actors (but no staff, so far).

Ok so I live in Japan and I had never heard about this. Now there's the new show with Sugita and Konishi (Leon and Osma) that's going to be streamed through cellphones, but no Kenta Miyake radio on those dates.

[Gubaba]

I'm finding that Ohnogi interview more and more silly than I did before. This is what we get for living outside japan. We couldn't tell right away if the source is authentic or not so it's easy to get fooled. Even more so, interviews like this tend to color one's perception of the show. Atleast it did mine for a little while. I'd be happy if this is completely disproved. It'll feel weird to have the tides turn, the Ohnogi issue is filled with holes now. It is fun however to watch Gubaba "bury this Ohnogi-worked-on-MF-nonsense under 1000 ft of dirt, several layers of concrete, about 10m thick solid titanium-composite armor and a moat with sharks with freakin-lasers on their heads" from the sidelines.

Well, one of the things that I think is funny about it is the fact that Macross Generation apparently demands that people credit them if they post their news elsewhere.

If it hadn't been for that, we would've had NO idea who was responsible for this. As it is, the blame falls on one guy and one guy alone.

I still don't feel comfortable calling it a hoax, or Shaloom a liar...but I really can't see any other options.

That said, Tak at AnimeSuki swears up and down that he saw a Japanese source that talked about Ohnogi oining the Frontier writing staff, but he can't seem to find it anywhere.

[Gubaba]

Ok so I live in Japan and I had never heard about this. Now there's the new show with Sugita and Konishi (Leon and Osma) that's going to be streamed through cellphones, but no Kenta Miyake radio on those dates.

I saw something about that the other day, and it weirds me out. Last October, Shaloom said there was an exclusive cell-phone only Macross radio show, and suddenly, now there is. Can he see the future? Should we write to Macross Ace and DEMAND that he write stories about Max and Milia, and Minmay trying to give an autographed record to Hikaru?

[Mr March]

After reading this thread I just have to ask, what would be the implication(s) of Ohnogi working on Macross Frontier? From what I can tell, there's off-hand comments about Kawamori's role/influence on the series but little more than that. The only thing I can discern by reading between the lines of Ohnogi's supposed "involvement" is some disgruntled opinion of Kawamori/Frontier. Are those opinions the reason for all this research and debate? If it's fun to research or a sense of pride is being gleamed from all this, who am I to argue? But if I didn't know any better, I'd say Ohnogi's supposed involvement was all a prank, like one would find at 4chan.

Digressing, I guess I'm just curious what the big "revelation" would be if Ohnogi's "involvement" was proved/disproved. Is there some great treasure of valuable Macross trivia waiting at the end of this long road? I'm sensing a big anti-climax from all this.

[Gubaba]

After reading this thread I just have to ask, what would be the implication(s) of Ohnogi working on Macross Frontier? From what I can tell, there's off-hand comments about Kawamori's role/influence on the series but little more than that. The only thing I can discern by reading between the lines of Ohnogi's supposed "involvement" is some disgruntled opinion of Kawamori/Frontier. Are those opinions the reason for all this research and debate? If it's fun to research or a sense of pride is being gleamed from all this, who am I to argue? But if I didn't know any better, I'd say Ohnogi's supposed involvement was all a prank, like one would find at 4chan.

Digressing, I guess I'm just curious what the big "revelation" would be if Ohnogi's "involvement" was proved/disproved. Is there some great treasure of valuable Macross trivia waiting at the end of this long road? I'm sensing a big anti-climax from all this.

You're probably not wrong about that.

The outbreak has been confined mostly to AnimeSuki, but over there, Ohnogi has been essentially hailed as a god, while Kawamori is insulted and reviled at every opportunity.

For me, the research started because I'm trying to translate all the Macross novels and stories, and Shaloom refers to a lot of them I'd never heard of before. Finding out that they didn't exist led to other things, and pretty soon I had all this text.

And it would be like a 4chan prank except that nobody ever really questioned it...

[Mr March]

Well, if nothing else comes of this fiasco, we can at least praise your thoroughness in providing us with an informed opinion on the matter. This topic would probably make a good FAQ thread to save for future reference, cause we know the subject will likely come up again.

[Gubaba]

Well, if nothing else comes of this fiasco, we can at least praise your thoroughness in providing us with an informed opinion on the matter. This topic would probably make a good FAQ thread to save for future reference, cause we know the subject will likely come up again.

I think it's a relatively minor eruption so far, but no, it will probably never die. Years from now, someone will see macross F for the first time and join up here to say, "I heard some other guy wrote the last few episodes and that's why they suck/rock" or something like that.

For myself and my situation, I'm more troubled by the thought of people coming to my blog when I'm completely done with SDFM, saying, "Why didn't you translate the Ohnogi stories? I really wanted to read those, because so much of Frontier is based on them!"

Although, I suppose I could always answer, "Hey, if you can find 'em, I'll do 'em" or some such. Or else just forward any messages like that to Shaloom, and have him deal with them.

The problem is that a lot of the information in the liner notes is completely accurate, and interesting. Why anyone would wreck a detailed list of all the homages in Frontier by adding a bunch of BS is beyond me. But then, so is the question of why someone would go to all the trouble of making up the BS in the first place.