Swampstorm

Oh don't worry. I was being facetious. You do have a knack for the art, though, from what I've seen over at AS. As one can infer from your post, it isn't really about what you say, so much as how you say it. People get riled up over shipping arguments because people are deliberately inflammatory when writing up their reactions to the series. The slaps from the TV series are a case in point (as you are probably more than familiar with). I think it's the difference between saying that you liked the presentation of the scene as opposed to the act itself.

Oh Gubaba, you troll.

As desirable as it would be to avoid a discussion of shipping, it's implicit in the discussion - especially since it was cited as a possible motivation for Shaloom's actions. The problem with this is two-fold. Firstly, we really don't actually know what Shaloom was thinking unless he comes out and tells us. Secondly, there's a certain amount of "soapbox" talk and venting that builds off of this kind of speculation. As an example: Now, I'm not suggesting that you throw stones at this sort of thing. But you need to keep in mind that these statements rely on the divisions that we set in our minds between "shippers" and "non-shippers", or between "Animesuki" and "Macross World" (or between "Sheryl fans" and "Ranka fans" for that matter - who says that you can't like both?). But the fact of the matter remains that there are plenty of people who post across both forums, and plenty of people who enjoy both the relationship and mecha elements of the series (after all, you need both to really "get" Macross). There's nothing wrong with "shipping" in itself - it just depends on the way in which it's expressed. Ironically, as MM himself pointed out when the interviews were brought up in the FV thread, the arguments presented by FV - and, by extension, the interviews themselves - sound extremely plausible. So it's not that one "group" of fans was more inclined to buy into the story than another - almost everyone initially took it on faith. But this was an issue that the fanbase could only combat with real information, and that's exactly what you gave us. As DeX (who posted just a little bit before) could no doubt tell you, AS isn't the scary place that it seems to be at first glance - and he's a fairly staunch Ranka fan. It is scary in other ways, however, as you'll undoubtably find out.

Roundabout, yes; subtle, no. Try to humour him, though, and let it slide. I'm bound to enjoy this sort of game much more than you will.

Well, its necessity depends more on what you want the scope of this thread to be. If the question that you're addressing is the credibility of the Shaloom interviews, then you've more than fulfilled the task - both by noting the author's lack of evidence and the inconsistencies in the content of the writing. In fact, this is something that you accomplished back in late April when you first suggested that the interview was fabricated. So long as someone is trying to prove that Ohnogi worked on the series, the burden of proof is always on them, not you, to show that this is the case. If, instead, you wanted to prove that Ohnogi didn't work on the series, the burden of proof is reversed. You could, in theory, disprove any number of claims that he worked on the series, but you'd still run the risk of turning these into a negative proof. Naturally, you're bound to reach a point where you'll become skeptical of any further claims, but skepticism has to do with belief (which is different issue altogether). That's part of the reason why I nudged you about sending off that email; it prevents you from being locked into a situation where there's a lack of evidence to support either position. Another point that was of interest to me (and, as I understand, is of interest to you), is in figuring out which parts of the Shaloom and the Famitsu interviews (if any) are verifiable as valid. As a case in point, the translation of the Famitsu mentions Ohnogi as a writer, which makes it suspect. Yet at the same time, if we dismiss the entire Famitsu article on that basis, we run the risk of losing verifiable insights into the series (the statement on polygamy comes to mind here). I suspect that a lot of the misconceptions being propagated are convincing because they incorporate partial truths - so the best solution would be to separate the truth from the 'fiction', in both senses of the word. It's not my intention to dampen your parade - you've done an excellent job and I fully support what you're doing. I'm sure that you're anxious to close this situation and move on, but you may see some merit in incorporating the above-mentioned issues, for the sake of completeness (call me pedantic).

Gubaba, are you still planning on following that outline that you put out in your opening? I was wondering whether you were still planning on addressing the Famitsu interview at a later point.

Actually, I don't think that the Ohnogi question itself was what lead to the perception of Kawamori as a "troll". I suspect it had more to do with a tongue-in-cheek statement that he apparently made regarding polyamory, after the series ended. That remark has always struck me as somewhat baffling from a storyline perspective, as Michael was always trying to get Alto to make a choice either way regarding his feelings, and Michael's death seemed to really drive home that concept. Likewise, the translations that you made suggest that this theme was not one that was addressed specifically in series, but rather one expressed after the fact. As such, I think that perception of Kawamori as being "out-of-touch" depends largely on whether you take that remark seriously or not. Even in reading those "Ohnogi interviews", I didn't specifically see an 'Ohnogi = Sheryl/Kawamori = Ranka' divide until reading FV's "analysis" of those "interviews". Likewise, that perception depends largely on whether you take FV's remarks seriously or not.

Oh, and if you do get around to writing them, could you post up the response as well? It could be exhibit Y.

More specifically, Ohnogi and Kawamori have been reduced to symbols of Sheryl and Ranka, respectively. A part of me is curious about how the tone of this piece would change if Kawamori and Ohnogi's roles were switched. That's a fairly accurate picture, but there's a slight difference here. In the example you provide, you describe how external factors frame your viewing of the series. This thread is an example of the reverse: we're looking at how a viewing of the series can frame your perception of external content (in this case, the interview). This reading of the interview, with Ohnogi and Kawamori framed in terms of the OP's perceptions of Sheryl and Ranka, is what turns it into a character rant. On an unrelated note: there's nothing inherently wrong with shipping, so long as you take it with a grain of salt. This applies to the onlookers who get frustrated with it as much as it does the people who actively participate in it. Actually, the first Mary Sue was an ACC published as part of a Star Trek fanzine in the 70s. It's not a novel, but rather a very short fanfic: at best it's a 30 second read. The point being parodied is not that the character is perfect (she ultimately dies in the end, after all), but rather the way in which the character is sold to the reader (when she dies, she's mourned by all). This is where the talk of authenticity comes in: the ACC, an unofficial, fan created character, is elevated above the official (and by extension, authentic) characters in the series. While this concept has been simpified down along the lines of "an annoyingly perfect character" courtesy of sites such as Wikipedia and TvTropes (since when was deconstruction defined as "subverting a genre"?) it still carries that theme of authenticity with it. It's hardly surprising, then, that the OP makes reference to Ohnogi with phrases such as "A fan that knows the director is like a computer programmer with a screwdriver," or describing his writing as "bad fanfiction"; the association with fandom is used here too in order to imply that the latter half of the story was somehow unauthentic. This, in turn, leads the OP to suggest how things "ought" to have turned out. Why not fight fanfiction with fanfiction? To be sure, which is why the criticisms heaped on Ohnogi stood out as unusual from the outset. While I'm not in a position to analyse any potential deception in the source material, I was referring more to the way in which even that source material was misrepresented. I don't think that the term "observation" applies here, as it seems to connote an objectivity that nobody in this thread actually has. That being said, I wonder: who gets to decide how much importance a character "should" really have? Perhaps someone who's objective?

I think the problem is actually the opposite - namely, that the criticism comes across as disingenuous. The tragic tale of friendship and betrayal in the OP is a red herring: it serves no purpose in the criticism of the story itself, but rather serves to create the illusion that the story that we saw in Frontier was not authentic. Frontier could just as well have been written by an infinite number of monkeys, but all other things being equal, that should hardly change the nature of our criticisms regarding the storyline itself. The discussion of Mary Sue characters hinges on a similar question of authenticity. The original Mary Sue was created as a parody of ACC and SI fanfics of the time. As such, it represents a tension between canon and fanon, or alternatively, between the "authentic" content of the fictional universe and the content introduced by the fanfic writer. This concept is applied in this thread in a similar fashion to imply that the "true" or "authentic" protagonists were ursurped from their rightful roles by the alleged Mary Sue(s). However, because these designations were arbitrary to begin with, this entire line of reasoning ended up as nothing more than a cleverly disguised rant about how certain characters didn't end up being as important to the plot as people thought they ought to be. Of course, there's nothing wrong with disliking a series because the plot or characters didn't turn out the way you wanted them to. But I'd much rather see that simply stated up front.

Nice AU fic, but Ohnogi was a bit too OOC for my taste. The difficulty in reading this is that a large number of the listed points don't reference any source, so it's difficult to separate fact from the story used to weave them together. By polarizing Kawamori and Ohnogi into opposing forces battling for authorship, we are presented with the illusion that there are not one, but two stories. This second, hypothetical storyline sets the stage for rest of the post to reship reshape the entire story. I'm a bit surprised that Yoshino's role wasn't discussed, seeing as he was the one who apparently put forward the existing love triangle concept in place of the Macross Plus style triangle, during the pre-production stages. I think the biggest thing that was glossed over here was the fact that the story never was written by just one person to begin with - it was a collaborative effort.

If the character is static, then it doesn't make that much of a difference. By contrast, the path that a dynamic character's character development takes can influence whether you like them or not. There are two things that you can do if a dynamic character fails to meet your expectations. First, you can re-evaluate the character in terms of the new development to see whether they still captivate your interest, or you can try to justify to yourself that the character hasn't fallen short of what you wanted to see. I think the difference between the two approaches lies in whether you feel more compelled to extol the character's virtues, or if you feel more compelled to absolve them of their mistakes. While first impressions can be important, this isn't necessarily the defining criterion for whether we prefer one character over another; especially when the characters are evolving over time. There is, however, a difference between a character impression which is carefully detailed and expanded upon over time, and one that has been completely neglected. Since the plot requires that we not know Grace's diabolical plans until the very last minute, her character has been poorly developed in the interests of preserving that mystery. In so doing, any development that she does recieve will hinge on a last minute revelation in which her character is thrust upon the audience. As far as gimmicks go, she's a fun character, but she loses out in terms of characterization. It all boils down to what you're looking for, I guess. Not necessarily. Grace is more symbol than character, embodying the baser qualities of human nature. The destruction of Galia-4, the onset of Sheryl's illness, and the power struggle on Frontier were all events that could have been written in without Grace's involvement in the story; the common thread lies in the ideas of ambition (be it scientific or political) and betrayal. Since her character hasn't been explored in relation to these events, she's more the symbolic representation of a "conflict" than a character in herself. Villains can be much more than that. Even very simplistic villains often recieve sufficient character development to allow them to serve as foils for the protagonists. If their motivations are carefully explored throughout the series, they can stand alone as characters in their own rights. But again, it depends on whether the writer is interested in actually exploring the character or simply is looking a means to set up a conflict. The focal point of the story has always been on how the three protagonists interact with each other in the face of the obstacles placed in front of them. You could see it in episode five, where Sheryl and Klan's dialogue on why people fly or sing, in conjunction with Alto's paper airplane, gave Ranka the inspiration to sing her first song in public. You could see it in episode seven, where Ranka's insight into Sheryl's feelings on stage provided the impetus for the duet that helped Alto in the battle with the Vajra. Whether you love them or hate them, every conflict links back to the relationship between the three protagonists, and their greatest successes always result from them working together as a team. The actual nature of the conflict itself is largely irrelevant; all that matters are the bonds that unify them. Alto's character, specifically, has been somewhat underdeveloped in the interest of building suspence with regards to the triangle. The framework has been built up quite well, but there are a lot of deliberate holes that have been left behind, especially with regards to his past, that make him difficult to read. But this is a common enough trade-off in romance; as the intersection point of the triangle, his character is defined more in terms of his relationship with the girls, than his own qualities as an individual. He might not be exceptional, but he gets the job done. A thread is no more shallow than the people participating decide to make it.

We haven't been given all that much to go by, with respect to Grace's character. Again, the mystery of her character gives the appearance of masking something more complex, but until her character is developed, it remains nothing more than an appearance. I think one of the problems surrounding her character is that she's repeatedly been used as a plot device to initiate events in the story. Overall, I get less of a feeling that her actions are driven by a unified purpose so much as they act as a means for the writers to periodically inject mayhem into the lives of the characters. Not that she needs to do much more, of course; "evil for the sake of being evil" will often suffice for motivation when the villain isn't meant to be the centerpiece of the story. From what I've seen, MF's greatest strength lies in the way in which it communicates the emotions of the characters; not simply through dialogue, but through subtle gesture and expression. Regardless of whether you approve of the way in which the various relationships between the characters have been explored or not, it's clear that there's a lot more detail that was put into portraying the characters. Whether you prefer the plot to the characters is a different story altogether.

In romance, plot is secondary to character development. While characters like Grace certainly add flavor to the story, they tend to lose some of their lustre when their mystery wears away; that's probably why she's never in the forefront of any scene for very long. Keep in mind that "Just as planned" really only works insofar as the audience isn't actually aware what the plan actually is. But don't let that stop you from enjoying her character. There's nothing wrong with being taken in by appearances.

Well, as they panned to the photo, Alto delivered that line about how Sheryl didn't need to be strong and continue singing. In that sense, he was trying to approach the situation the same way as he did his mother. What he's offering her is a chance to give up her burdens and depend entirely on his support. But it's also important to note the intensity with which Sheryl rejected that offer in the very same shot. By this point, she's completely focused outside of herself and towards the duty she has towards the people of Frontier. She forces the realization that the situation is different - which lead Alto to decide to try to support her from the sidelines as she continued her work. I think the purpose of the recurring parallel that's being made here is that Alto isn't entirely helpless anymore (in contrast with how he was then); his experiences through the series have strengthened him to the point where he can take charge of his own destiny. It's just a question of deciding what he really wants to do, and then throwing himself into it.

How you interpret Alto's actions depend on what you percieve to be the "cause" of those actions. If you believe that Alto had no prior attachment to Sheryl before this scene, then you would probably tend to interpret his actions as being driven by the situation. On the other hand, if you recognize that the episodes leading up to this one trace the gradual development of Alto's feelings for both girls, then this episode does nothing more than force a revelation on Alto's part by drawing out feelings that were already there. Romance doesn't spring out of thin air. It may be helpful to compare this episode with episode nineteen, wherein Alto was unaware of Sheryl's condition. Sheryl tries to make her decision to quit singing into a minor issue by cooking up a story, but Alto still forces the issue and tries to convince her to sing again. Sheryl didn't ask for his help, nor did she give any indication that it was even a problem. The reason that Alto still brings the issue up again and again is because it matters to him. One of the reasons why the scene from this episode is so moving is because so much of the characters feelings are carried out through body language. After Sheryl tries to cover up her problems and pretend that everything is fine, everything from Alto's expression to his intonation shows that he's clearly in a great deal of pain. Pity carries a certain amount of detatchment - contrast Alto's reaction with Michael and Klan's reaction when they found out the exact same thing four episodes ago. All four of them are friends, but the reactions of each of the characters is widely different. I think you're on the mark with regards to the scene not "feeling right", in that there are still a lot of unresolved issues hovering in the air. While it's clear that Alto has strong feelings for Sheryl, he hasn't defined for himself what those feelings are and what he intends to do with them. His initial reaction was to try to protect her, by offering Sheryl the chance to give up the burden of her responsibilities, but she rejects that outright. By this point, Sheryl has essentially given up on herself, choosing to focus on helping others with what little time she has left (as shown through her charity efforts and her rememberance of the dead during this episode). That's what lead in to the hug - Sheryl was pushing him away with her words, so he strongly felt the need to reach out and make some sort of a connection with her. By forcing herself to take up the responsibility that Ranka left behind, Sheryl forces Alto into a situation where at best he can try to support her from the sidelines. That's part of the reason why Alto needs to stop and evaluate what he really wants, as Ozma suggested. If he's content with things as they are, then he can continue to walk along the path that he's been walking. But if he wants something more from either girl, he's gotta go out and fight for it.

As MFSxA points out, Sheryl's confidence wasn't undermined by Grace's suggestion that she's somehow a "manufactured idol". In the scene with Grace after the OP, Sheryl counters by saying that she'll make it on her own, even if Grace isn't with her. That in turn provokes Grace into revealing that Sheryl will die from her infection. It's not that she lacks self-confidence, but even if she tries to rebuild, she doesn't even have a future to look forward to. The initial part of the conversation struck me as more along the lines of "Et tu, Grace?" Sheryl wants to know the reason for Grace's betrayal, and whether it was due to some deficiency on her own part (ie. because of Ranka's ability to influence the Vajra). Before coming to Frontier, Grace was the only person who Sheryl really knew, and the only person who she felt close to. It's only natural that she'd feel extremely hurt by the defection. Given the amount of control that Grace's faction seems to exert over promoting singers, it really seems that neither Sheryl nor Ranka have any control over their "fame". While Sheryl may have been helped by Grace's efforts, this is the same person who pulled all of her advertisments from the air. Even the girls at the discount bin note that she's disappeared completely from the music scene. She's been completely sabotaged. One important point to note is that Sheryl's attempts to stay strong throughout this episode have little to do with pride. When she's alone in the limo or away from everyone else, she has no problems giving in to her grief. It's just that she doesn't want to worry the people around her. In the scene with Michael and Klan, for example, Sheryl uses the line "I am Sheryl Nome" to comfort them(!), even though she should really needs comforting herself. When you look back through the earlier episodes, you'll see that she uses this phrase quite often to remind herself that she needs to be strong for the sake of others (the very first time it was used, for example, was after she arrived feeling tired on Frontier, but she had to remain tough - she had a job to do). (By the way, I fell in love with Klan this episode, building off of my feelings from back in episode five. If she ever ends up becoming best friends with Sheryl, I'll be really happy.) That's really one of the defining qualities of Sheryl's character. She always tries her hardest to remain strong for the sake of the people around her, and she's so good at doing it that they often don't realize the hardship that she goes through. I think this'll be a big problem with Alto, as well, because if he doesn't find out on his own, she'll never tell him her feelings on the matter. I wouldn't worry too much about her from a character standpoint (from an impending death standpoint, I do worry, naturally). Regardless, Sheryl will definitely prove to be one of the strongest female leads of any anime series for a good many years to come.

You're probably looking for this: http://macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?show...mp;#entry619277

There's always a sunset to be had in her more emotional and vulnerable scenes. It's as if the heavens themselves wish to illuminate her inner beauty. It's not just her hair, but her eyes as well, which range from azure to jade. Unlike her hair, which seems to consistantly follow a set of lighting rules (blonde under direct light, pink in the shade), her eyes seem to vary based on the scene. During her first kiss with Alto, for example, they're a dark shade of green, which with the pink, adds a softness to her expression. However, when she struggles out of bed to help Alto get his present, her eyes are an dark blue, which adds an earnest intensity to her expression. You could be on the right track, though. Maybe it's a result of her unusual blood type.

I think the people who are more into the love triangle side of things have their votes spread out a bit more, given the fact that we've had so many good episodes to choose from. Star Date definitely had some of the best banter, although I'd have also supported 6, 8, and 10 if I didn't have to choose. All the major mecha action is pretty much packed into episode seven, so it's a much less ambiguous choice.

People are a bit worked up at Animesuki over the whole "who will end up with whom" issue, right now. Much character bashing has ensued, especially towards Sheryl, given that her actions can seem so ambiguous at times. It's unfortunate that you happened to walk into some of the backlash. I've discussed the character inconsistancy issue before, so perhaps I can try and talk this one out with you as well. Unless there's a better thread for this elsewhere, of course. This one was a bit tricky for me as well. The feeling on my part was more of an "age"-related issue: before the date episode, Sheryl mostly acts like she's a late twentysomething woman. Afterwards, she swings between 'a kid in a toy store' to 'thoughtful and slightly troubled teen' and occasionally back to 'mature and driven' again. This really only started to make sense only after episode six (in perhaps one of her least reactionary moments), where she explains that she was grew up without a family. She's had to mature quite rapidly in order to cope with the pressures of being a child star. The sights that Alto shows Sheryl are rather mundane, when you look at it (This is an observation tower... and this is a shopping mall...) but Sheryl is in awe of everything she sees. Alto is not just acting as a tour guide of Frontier; he's also acting as a guide to Sheryl's missing childhood. Seeing as she's held it all in for the past seventeen years, it's only natural that this 'release' takes place quite dramatically. Sheryl wants to ride the shiny EX Gear. Sheryl still takes her work seriously. Whether it be in jotting down a sudden inspiration, trying to set up a photoshoot, or even giving out career advice, Sheryl quickly switches back on to the job that she's spent most of her life in training for, pleasantries be damned. Even the things that she finds fun and enjoyable eventually find themselves integrated back into her work: her date becomes inspiration for a song, and her newfound love of flying becomes part of an advertising campaign to save Galaxy. She is a workaholic, and it is one of her greatest weaknesses. What I think people find so appealing about her character is how these different elements come together. On one hand, she has a playfulness and childlike sense of mischief that make her endearing, while her singleminded drive, confidence, and her ability to think on her feet make her a character who wins respect. Where a classical tsundere uses strength as a mask for weakness, Sheryl is simply nothing more than a character with an unusual set of strengths and weaknesses. This distinction often makes her act in ways that are more unpredictable than many seemingly similar characters that we may be familiar with. The initial phase was a bit quick, but then again, both the relationships are. Ranka meets Alto twice before she starts texting him as if the two have been girlfriends for ages, and Sheryl starts going out of her way to tease Alto from the moment that they step out of the shelter in episode three. What unbridled animal magnetism! Alto does give a fair bit of himself away during episode three, though. He shows himself to be quite driven, which Sheryl can relate to, he doesn't give her special treatment, and he doesn't take advantage of her embarrassing mishap in any way. By time the date starts, Sheryl feels quite comfortable with him, given how straightlaced he is (she's confident that he won't do anything inappropriate when she steals the charm around his neck, for example.) Not to mention the fact that she'd already figured out how easy he was to tease by the end of episode three. But most of their initial bonding took place during the date. I've seen this idea presented a number of times as well. I think at least part of it comes from the focus on Ranka's viewpoint; this is the second kiss between Sheryl and Alto that we've seen a 'cut-to-Ranka's-reaction'. With the repeated occurrance, the natural reaction is to question if it is deliberate. But when you think about it, it's a fairly tricky thing to pull off deliberately. Ranka is far away on the beach, and Bobby is actually physically blocking the line of sight between Ranka and the beach hut when Sheryl starts to lean toward Alto for the kiss. Little did Sheryl know that in the latest edition, quarter-zentrandi come with darkvision, x-ray vision, binocular vision, movable hair, and a base THAC0 of 10. If you want to make sense of what happened, you'll need to go back to the scene where Alto first finds out that he has to do a kiss (when the original actress was still cast as Mao, rather than Ranka). Sheryl teased Alto a bit, but she also looked worried about how he was taking it. When Sheryl comes to talk to Alto at the beach, her response to Alto's worries about Ranka's ability to do the role was "But what about yourself?" So it looks like she had originally intended to come help Alto while Bobby helped Ranka. A combination of Sheryl's rapidly growing feelings towards Alto, his feigned nonchalance, and Sheryl's impulsiveness were probably what brought on the kiss. On Sheryl's part, the kiss was less of a statement than it was a question. She's initially giddy just after the kiss, but then there's a long, awkward pause where she tries to read Alto's expression (who is still busy trying to mentally process what just happened). When she can't read his response, she covers it up, thinking that she's gone too far. It's quite an impressive scene because the dialogue is essentially "mimed out" to the audience, rather than made explicit. So while the scene can leave you feeling quite uncomfortable and awkward, it's difficult to pinpoint why until you scrutinze it in more detail. It also highlights how very vulnerable Sheryl has become as far as Alto is concerned, in spite of all her internal strength. There's a very gradual transition here that can be traced through episode five and seven, and it's a lot of fun to watch. But that's a story for another time. Minmay is Minmay, Ranka is Ranka, Misa is Misa, and Sheryl is Sheryl. These homages point in so many different (opposing!) directions that I wonder if they aren't simply there to encourage wild speculation and uncertainty. Take each as a unique character in their own right, and you'll get the most out of the experience. I understand that, as of now, Sheryl can be difficult to connect to, since we've gotten so little in the way of monologues from her. But keep a close eye on her; there are a lot of small, quick changes in her expression that can be easily be missed on a first watch. Or a second. But she's all there.

Aside from Klan, who seems to be rather straightforward by nature, I think all of the girls have shown themselves to have a caustic side by now. Even little Ranka had venom in her eyes when she stood up to tell the director that she'd be playing Mao. Fiestiness is good!