Real World Technical References of Macross Variable Aircraft

[ce25254]

I always figured the FAST packs on the F-15E Strike Eagle were the starting point for the leg super parts on the Super/Strike Valkyrie.

Oh, the '80s.

Edited March 26, 2015 by ce25254

[Andras]

The E model itself was a bit late to be a direct inspiration for the VF-1 FAST packs (E model first flight '86, operational '88)

But the concept of the FAST/CFTs was demonstrated at the 1980 Farnborough show.

wiki says:

McDonnell Douglas modified the second TF-15A prototype, serial number 71-0291, as a demonstrator. The aircraft, known as the Advanced Fighter Capability Demonstrator, first flew on 8 July 1980.^[9] It was previously used to trial conformal fuel tanks (CFT), initially designed for the F-15 under the designation "FAST Pack", with FAST standing for "Fuel and Sensor, Tactical.^[9] It was subsequently fitted with a Pave Tack laser designator targeting pod to allow the independent delivery of guided bombs.^[11] The demonstrator was displayed at the 1980 Farnborough Airshow.^[12]

[wmkjr]

Not a variable aircraft. Maybe should change topic to real world references of Macross items.

Siorkorvsky Sea Sargent:

Sikorsky SH-3 Sea King

Edited March 27, 2015 by wmkjr

[David Hingtgen]

The Lockheed C-130 Hercules & the VC-27 Tunny.

Even though the engine lay-out is more inline with the C-5 Galaxy, the VC-27 being a medium cargo aircraft would place it in the same class as the C-130. I also remember seeing a video of the military attempting to give the Hercules a pair of jet engines (placed above the wing like the Tunny's), though they kept the design as is (can not find images of on the net)

Trivia; A C-130 Hercules did a carrier landing (Look ma, No hook!), and take-off, without the assistance of the USS Forrestal (CV-59) that it used as a runway.

I've always thought it was much more based on the An-72:

T-tail, overwing jets.

But I also definitely see some Ekranoplan influence in there:

[Valkyrie Driver]

Not a variable aircraft. Maybe should change topic to real world references of Macross items.

Siorkorvsky Sea Sargent:

Sikorsky SH-3 Sea King

I think it looks closer to the HH-3 Jolly Green Giant.

[wmkjr]

I was thinking of that too but liked the rear tail of the SH-3. I'd say a mix of both.

As for the Tunny, someone was looking for the YC-14:

[GuardianGrey]

wmkjr, on 27 March 2015 - 02:48, said:

As for the Tunny, someone was looking for the YC-14:

Response:

Yeah that was me & that one was the unit I was thinking of, though thought Lockheed (not Boeing) built it. Thank you, wmkjr.

______________________________

David Hingtgen, on 25 March 2015 - 23:30, said:
I've always thought it was much more based on the AN-72:

Response:

I can see why one would have that opinion, David Hingtgen.

The nose/cockpit to me though looks more like the YC-14 & C-130 Hercules than the AN-72 Cheburashka (NATO reporting name: Coaler).

All were being tested/flown during the art development period for SDFM during the late 70's.& very early 80's.

I think the personal transporter version of the An-72 may also have inspired the design for the VC-33 Mom's Kitchen, though the tail of said is a combo H-style & butterfly. http://www.macross2.net/m3/sdfmacross/momskitchen/momskitchen.gif

(Tangent: Really wish I knew why the Flash options don't work for me, would have liked to posted & not linked that)

--------------- Back to Topic ---------------

As brought up with the Cat's Eye, AEW craft are usually a needed part of the military, and only qualification is that it can fly with a radar attachment on it. This is seen with many militaries in the Real world & in Macross with the VE-1 ELINT Seeker, RVF-25, RVF-171 & the radar-dome attachments for the VF-11 boosters & VF-17.

Though, as dedicated craft form the AEW&C position, none have yet matched the EC-22B Disk Sensor. Heck, I see at least three different aircraft in this one!

1. I see a DC 20 in the main airframe, though with a H-style/butterfly tail combo (like seen on the VC-33)
2. I see a standard disk radar-dome on top (like the E-2 Hawkeye & E-3C Sentry) in the latter half of the craft
3. I see a spin ridge communication/radar assembly (not as dramatic as the EMB-145 Eireye's systems) on it front half of the craft

I can see more references to other AEW aircraft sensor-pods. I get the impression that if it moves, the EC-22B will find it. Though that is my opinion of a fictional craft.

[Mr March]

Ugh, that old Sea Sergeant artwork is killing me to look at. Okay, I wanted to save this for the next update, but it's just bothering me too much so here's a much improved version...

[HannouHeiki]

Off topic but a good place to ask: is the VF-11C different from the B in any way, besides the color?

[Seto Kaiba]

Off topic but a good place to ask: is the VF-11C different from the B in any way, besides the color?

Yeah, there are some minor differences... enhanced avionics, leg munitions bays, the deletion of the bayonet from the gunpod, etc.

[Andras]

plus a different gunpod, and different FAST packs.

[Nekko Basara]

wiki says:

McDonnell Douglas modified the second TF-15A prototype, serial number 71-0291, as a demonstrator. The aircraft, known as the Advanced Fighter Capability Demonstrator, first flew on 8 July 1980.^[9] It was previously used to trial conformal fuel tanks (CFT), initially designed for the F-15 under the designation "FAST Pack", with FAST standing for "Fuel and Sensor, Tactical.^[9] It was subsequently fitted with a Pave Tack laser designator targeting pod to allow the independent delivery of guided bombs.^[11] The demonstrator was displayed at the 1980 Farnborough Airshow.^[12]

I'm guessing I'm not the only person on these boards who gets slightly annoyed by the use of the "FAST Pack" term in Macross, when the main purpose of the packs seems to be adding thrusters and munitions, with fuel present only for the thrusters and no sensors to speak of.

[Andras]

No, you aren't. I have the Aero Series volume on the F-15 (1978) I practically grew up with that book welded to my hands since grade school.

The conformal pallets were supposed to be removable and replaceable so the same airframe could perform multiple missions.

The fuel pallets had enough to make a nonstop trans-Atlantic crossing w 3 600gallon tanks in 5 hours.

The proposed pallet packages were:

ECM+ fuel

Recon Sensors (on a 2 seater)

Strike Assist (IR/Laser + fuel

Conformal Bomb Carriage + fuel- this became the E model

Conformal AIM-7 Carriage + fuel- would have added fuel while keeping the AIM7s

Augmented Thrust (fuel plus small boost engine of some kind)

Critical Cargo Carrier w 2 compartments

Gunpod w cannon, ammo, and fuel

Spray tanks

Buddy tanker w probe and fuel

The recon pack was to replace the RF-4E birds, in combination with a 2 seat model.

[charger69]

You guys posting great ideas and images here! Thank you

[GuardianGrey]

--------------- On Topic ---------------

Though old, and not widely known at the time of SDFMacross production, the A-12/D-21 combo l feel (in image) might have been partly the inspiration of the VF-0 Angel package for M-ZERO.

I know the A-12 was used as the launch vehicle only (abandoned after a bad separation that lead to the crash of both drone and mother-ship craft), though I am going off image only.

Which makes me speculate that if they could have kept the 'brain' in the QF-2200D (the only difference I believe between the D-A [drone] & D-B [booster pack] versions), I wonder how much a distraction it would be to enemy units. That is pure speculation due to that (according to the Macross continuum) the configuration is never used again.

[Valkyrie Driver]

No, you aren't. I have the Aero Series volume on the F-15 (1978) I practically grew up with that book welded to my hands since grade school.

The conformal pallets were supposed to be removable and replaceable so the same airframe could perform multiple missions.

The fuel pallets had enough to make a nonstop trans-Atlantic crossing w 3 600gallon tanks in 5 hours.

The proposed pallet packages were:

ECM+ fuel

Recon Sensors (on a 2 seater)

Strike Assist (IR/Laser + fuel

Conformal Bomb Carriage + fuel- this became the E model

Conformal AIM-7 Carriage + fuel- would have added fuel while keeping the AIM7s

Augmented Thrust (fuel plus small boost engine of some kind)

Critical Cargo Carrier w 2 compartments

Gunpod w cannon, ammo, and fuel

Spray tanks

Buddy tanker w probe and fuel

The recon pack was to replace the RF-4E birds, in combination with a 2 seat model.

The FAST Pack idea has changed somewhat. Look at the Silent Eagle, the conformal bays now only contain armaments, not fuel. So In this case it's life imitating art, rather than the other way around.

[Nekko Basara]

The FAST Pack idea has changed somewhat. Look at the Silent Eagle, the conformal bays now only contain armaments, not fuel. So In this case it's life imitating art, rather than the other way around.

Yeah, but the point is that those conformal bays are no longer referred to as "FAST Packs." The acronym stopped being used when it no longer applied... except in Macross, where it was always used despite never applying.

Also, it's probably worth noting that the Silent Eagle is a more recent development than any Macross series.

EDIT: Oh, I see now that's what you were commenting on with the "life imitating art" bit.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Nekko Basara

[Valkyrie Driver]

Yeah, but not all Macross FAST packs were just weapons and thrusters. Look at the VE-1's extra equipment, that's worth noting, as it was nothing but sensors and thrusters and fuel.

Maybe the original idea was to have extra guidance and tracking systems to utilize the additional weapons systems, since youd need them to properly utilize that much extra armament.

[Mr March]

Interesting discussion. Some things to note...

During the Macross Plus/Macross 7 era, there seemed to be a deliberate effort to steer away from the term "FAST Pack". While it's true the prototype YF-19 and YF-21 retained the terminology, there was a change starting with the VF-11B Thunderbolt whereby the trivia named the added space equipment Super Parts/Super Packs. This continued into the Macross 7 series in which the term "FAST Pack" is almost nowhere to be found in the official trivia, but "Super Parts/Super Packs" are labeled for each space-optimized valkyrie, including the VF-11C Thunderbolt, the VF-17 Nightmare and the VF-19 Excalibur.

Recently I've been working to finalize the M3's Macross Frontier section, adding new trivia and profiles for the YF-24 Evolution, The VF-25/MF25 Tornado, the YF-25 Prophecy, the YF-29 Durandal and cleaning up the existing profiles. While re-reading the official trivia for the VF-25 Messiah, I found this note...

VF-25 Messiah trivia:

power output, armaments, sensors and other systems have all been completely integrated which results in greatly enhanced performance

...which MAY imply these systems were previously isolated in earlier valkyries. If true, the old FAST Pack systems may have required their own guidance and tracking systems as Valkyrie Driver has suggested. So the term may have been more approriate in the pre-Macross Plus era.

As it turns out the Macross Frontier era brought about a kind of return to Macross roots and the term "FAST Pack" made something of a partial return into the franchise trivia. But it seems those writing Macross trivia didn't know, didn't notice or didn't remember that the newer term was "Super Part/Super Pack". So as has become typical of the Macross Chronicle writer's tendencies we've seen in so many pages of the series, they decided to COMBINE the terms as a compromise. So we see frequent mention of Super FAST Packs throughout Macross Frontier

Edited March 28, 2015 by Mr March

[GuardianGrey]

I can see your point, in part, Nekko Basara.

The only FAST packs that seem to full have Fuel And Sensor Tactical abilities are the ones off the VE-1 ELINT Seeker, VT-1 Super Ostrich & the VF-11C Super Thunderbolt "Radome." All others (like the RVF-25, RVF-171 & the VF-17 with a Radome attachment) are dedicated AEW/EW platforms. and at least are armed (same can not be said for the VF-1E Funny Chinese [i do not believe that one is cannon] & Reguld Tactical Scout Battle Pod)

Tangent; Has anyone noticed that the VE-1 minus the FAST packs looks a lot like the VT-1C?

_______________________________

That is interesting to note there, Mr. March. If your reading is true, then the speculation of Valkyrie Driver is legit on the added systems came with their own software. Which, I feel, then would make FAST packs very big Fire-&-Forget systems. That is in reference to a Singer missile system

--------------- Back to Topic ---------------

I am not going in any particular order on the matter of dedicated Drone units. heavy thumbnails in order of the unit being named.

In SDFMacross we are introduced to the QF-3000, which to me looks like a M2-F3 or a lot of the lifting-body experimental-crafts from the 1950's-70's,

This influence, I feel, continued into the X-9/QF-4000/AIV7/AIV-9 airframe though mostly from the X-23 PRIME & X-24C/L301.

I can see where Valkyrie Driver has the opinion that the QF-2200D-A maybe based off the Boeing Bird of Prey, though I think the X-36 might have had influence too. The X-36 sensor cap (it was unmanned) also looks like the YF-21 canopy...

Then finally the Target Drone from M+ seems to me to be like an updated version of the BGM-34C (Teledyne Ryan Model 259).

The 34s were the drone version of the Modular Design Robot (MDR, like the series four of destroids), & the BGM34C could be outfitted & used as a Target Drone (BQM-34 did that), Recon & Electronic Warfare (AQM-34 handled that chore) & Attack/Multi-mission operations (BGM-34B was set for that).

[Andras]

The VF-1 Super booster packs on one of the DVD covers do have tiny wings that might be sensors of some kind.

http://i.imgur.com/s0IecdY.jpg

The other interesting thing about that cover is the 4 barrel gatling carried in hand or under the wing, in addition to the GU-11 pod.

[sketchley]

Yeah, but the point is that those conformal bays are no longer referred to as "FAST Packs." The acronym stopped being used when it no longer applied... except in Macross, where it was always used despite never applying.

Actually, the producers of Macross DID stop using it. It's just 'us' English speaking fans who haven't stopped calling them FAST packs (I'd err on it being a common term that's still used to aid communications, and not a case of blind ignorance [unlike the "colony fleet" term that's used in English discussions on Macross...]).

As has been mentioned elsewhere in this topic, Super Parts and Super Packs are the terms that replaced FAST Packs, and us English speakers have to start using those terms more.

Edited March 29, 2015 by sketchley

[sketchley]

(same can not be said for the VF-1E Funny Chinese [i do not believe that one is cannon]

It is - though the proper name is: VEFR-1 "Funny Chinese" (VFMF refers to it as the VF-1G, though in both cases, it predates the introduction of the VE-1). http://www.mtranslation.host-ed.me/Stats/Statistics/VF-1/VF-1alt.php#VF-1G

It appears in SDFM, and gets as much screen time as the GBP-1S "Jotun" (that Orguss based VF-1 in joke).

[charger69]

I always think that fast packs are a way close the gap between the older and newer fighter generation gap in Macross continuum. As an example, VF-25 got the Tornado Packs to match with VF-27

Other poorly drawn examples

VF-11 Fast Packs to match with YF-19

VF-17 Super Parts with dual cannons to match with VF-22

Edited March 29, 2015 by charger69

[Seto Kaiba]

Actually, the producers of Macross DID stop using it. It's just 'us' English speaking fans who haven't stopped calling them FAST packs (I'd err on it being a common term that's still used to aid communications, and not a case of blind ignorance [unlike the "colony fleet" term that's used in English discussions on Macross...]).

As has been mentioned elsewhere in this topic, Super Parts and Super Packs are the terms that replaced FAST Packs, and us English speakers have to start using those terms more.

Well, they haven't completely abandoned the term... it crops up a lot in Variable Fighter Master File, for instance.

They just gave the acronym a slightly different meaning. It became "Fuel, Arms, and Sensors Tactical" in the VF-25 book. The most recent volume (the VF-22 book) still uses it.

[Nekko Basara]

Well, they haven't completely abandoned the term... it crops up a lot in Variable Fighter Master File, for instance.

They just gave the acronym a slightly different meaning. It became "Fuel, Arms, and Sensors Tactical" in the VF-25 book. The most recent volume (the VF-22 book) still uses it.

Believe it or not, that brings me a lot of peace.

EDIT: Although "Fuel, Arms, Sensors, and/or Thrusters" would be even better!

Edited March 29, 2015 by Nekko Basara

[GuardianGrey]

Andras, on 28 March 2015 - 21:10, said:

The VF-1 Super booster packs on one the DVD covers do have tiny wings that might be sensors of some kind.

The other interesting thing about that cover is the 4 barrel gatling carried in hand or under the wing, in addition to the GU-11 pod.

Response:

Cover art, got to love/hate it. The fin/wings on the FAST packs might have been in the original concept, though streamlining for animation had it dropped.
With the addition of the four barrel Gatling, it could be a predecessor-design for the SDP-1 Stampede.

I do not place much stock in concept/cover art, considering the LucasArts (now Disney) franchise of Start Wars. Episode six was originally going to be called Revenge of the Jedi, and some drafts of the original scripts & art for episode four had the character that developed into Luke as a girl.

Also, as everyone believed the artist renditions of the F-19, and the actual F/B-117 was nothing like it.

_______________________________

sketchley, on 28 March 2015 - said:

It is - though the proper name is: VEFR-1 "Funny Chinese" (VFMF refers to it as the VF-1G, though both cases, it predates the introduction of the VE-1)

It appears in SDFM, and gets as much screen time as the GBP-1S "Jotun"

Response:

I see, & thank you.

I wonder if the wings lost the ability to use hard-points, for I thought it was learned before the 80's that ASW/EW craft in combat scenarios need weapons. I know the profile says armaments are none.

Do you play based off the Palladium Books Robotech RPG series? The site you gave has good information, though also in game jargon formatted as such.

A question that I was asked; since the VF-0 got SWAG armor & active stealth, do all VF get those systems?

_______________________________

Well, charger69, your FAST/Super pack theory seems sound with a unit like the VF-11D Thunder Focus (which uses special equipment packs to follow the AVF racers in the Unlimited class)

Although, the introduction of the first FAST packs were on the VF-1 Super/Strike Valkyrie (the VF-0 Angel was more a on site kitbashing for the situation) and there was no competition/keeping-up-with other VF units. Like the FAST packs for the F-15, the Super Valkyrie equipment was to expand performance for a given situation that would not be needed otherwise.

I believe an earlier dialog between JBO & Mr. March discussed this with the VF-1 being a good general frame, though needed the GPS-1 to optimized for ground work & FAST packs doing simular for space combat.

Edited March 29, 2015 by GuardianGrey

[Valkyrie Driver]

Well, they haven't completely abandoned the term... it crops up a lot in Variable Fighter Master File, for instance.

They just gave the acronym a slightly different meaning. It became "Fuel, Arms, and Sensors Tactical" in the VF-25 book. The most recent volume (the VF-22 book) still uses it.

Hooray for backronyms!

[ce25254]

Actually, the producers of Macross DID stop using it. It's just 'us' English speaking fans who haven't stopped calling them FAST packs (I'd err on it being a common term that's still used to aid communications, and not a case of blind ignorance [unlike the "colony fleet" term that's used in English discussions on Macross...]).

As has been mentioned elsewhere in this topic, Super Parts and Super Packs are the terms that replaced FAST Packs, and us English speakers have to start using those terms more.

In fact the poster from the Macross Gold Book uses both terms. It refers to the parts in a large label as "Super parts (Leg part)" but then in the lower right-hand corner of the legend in it says "FAST pack Propellant 11000 kg" ...

Anyway I could not resist posting the F-15E picture since the flares made me think of an Itano Circus.

[GuardianGrey]

Well this posting is how life seems to follow art, for MF aired in 2008 that showed us the YF-24 Evolution.
I believe that Kawamori-san also expressed that he did not want to base the fighter-mode off of existing airframes.

First flight of the Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA aircraft was in 2010 as a pre-production model (like the VF-0 was of the VF-1)

(If you can see thumbnails that will help)

Though it maybe happen-stance that the T-50 seems to have elements of both the YF-22 & YF-23 ATF candidates, though the prolife also seems like the YF-24 as well.

If Kawamori wanted to predict the future, I would say he was darn close!

[Mr March]

The YF-24 Evolution and VF-25 Messiah definitely draw inspiration from existing real-world aircraft. It's been stated via his interviews that Kawamori only wanted to move away from the dominant style of "passive stealth silhouettes" of most modern jet fighter craft. Personally, I think anything that evokes the PAK FA is a win. I love that fighter

[Sildani]

Yeah, good looking bird. Pity about its troubles. Any idea why the 50 has such a nose-down attitude while on its landing gear?

[Seto Kaiba]

Well this posting is how life seems to follow art, for MF aired in 2008 that showed us the YF-24 Evolution.

I believe that Kawamori-san also expressed that he did not want to base the fighter-mode off of existing airframes.

Not quite... he said he wanted to get away from passively stealthy airframes, which is almost the same thing considering the focus of 5th Generation fighters.

While Kawamori might've possibly used the T-50 PAK-FA as an inspiration, I think most of it actually comes from his VF-EXPERIMENT column... where he did a couple design studies in the vein of "How the VF-1 might've looked if I designed it in 2000".

[David Hingtgen]

Yeah, good looking bird. Pity about its troubles. Any idea why the 50 has such a nose-down attitude while on its landing gear?

Mainly flown empty so far? Loaded up with a full combat load of fuel and weapons will make it flatter, as planes carry all their weight on their main gear, the nosegear bears almost none.

[GuardianGrey]

I agree with that, Seto Kaiba. considering the PAK FA first flew two years after MF was released, though the YF-.

The full operations version of the T-50 (according to Wikipedia) is suppose to be out by Christmas 2016!

____________________________________________________

The YF-24 Evolution, to me, originally looked like a VF-25 'reverted' back towards a SW-XA1 out of the VF-Experimental articles you spoke of.

Which goes back to me seeing the non-cannon work (like the VF-Experimental) of Kawamori being his proof-of-concept testing area that you never know what may spring up of older ideas or concepts for future Macross projects.

Like you said the SW-XAII could have got its final rendering as the YF-29 (with a YF-29 in SW-XAII colors in the VFMF; VF-25. I believe)

____________________________________________________

As someone said in another Topic thread, Isamu Alva Dyson was born on the 27 March 2015.

In a technological notes for this year in the Macross continuum; the VF-1 production will cease, and the mass production of the VF-5 (which we never see) begins.

Considering the specification inspiration of the VF-5 are suppose to be off the YF-2Y Sea Dart.

____________________________________________________

Very out there Tangent: Makes me wonder if Kawamori & others that have worked on Macross projects might be getting/giving inspiration to a parallel dimension via a small/slight spiritia/fold-wave resonance... just an out there thought about any/all 'fictional' story/worlds....