The MW Automotive Thread 5.0 GT

[dizman]

Lamborghini is pandering to a market, which is not something a low-volume supercar maker should have to do.

The times they are a changin'. If lambo wants to be around for the next 50 years then they have to change how they go about things like porsche and mclaren have been doing. They will keep making V12 monsters till regulations absolutely forbid them but at the same time they need to show they can keep up with the future.

[SchizophrenicMC]

They're owned by the second-largest carmaker in the world. They don't have to pander. At low volume, Lamborghini is able to maintain profitability without that pandering. In fact, because they are low volume they're exempt from many regulations. Increasing that volume makes them subject to all kinds of regulations that they weren't affected by, before they came up with the Gallardo. (What a blase car the Gallardo)

Next there's gonna be a Lamborghini F1 team. Friggin' Lamborgaudi.

In other news, I'm thinkng about buying a late first generation 300ZX turbo. I need some meaningful turbo badging in my life.

[skullmilitia]

Forced induction is the best!

I just finally got a wideband thrown in my Bullitt, so now it's time to see how close

to boom I get going from 8lbs to 11lbs of boost.

[SchizophrenicMC]

I always wanted to add forced induction to the 240SX, one way or another, but the price is too steep, and the chassis isn't really capable of my demands. So, Fairlady Z here we come.

[Beltane70]

I always wanted to add forced induction to the 240SX, one way or another, but the price is too steep, and the chassis isn't really capable of my demands. So, Fairlady Z here we come.

I guess you would've wanted to do more than just swap in an SR20DET into the 240?

[areaseven]

Presenting the car that plays dress-up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zca6Lv4PW8M

Daihatsu Kopen Concept

[reddsun1]

Presenting the car that plays dress-up.

*snip*

*snip*

Daihatsu Kopen Concept

Well, I suppose if things like weight, space, complexity, maintenance, and money weren't an issue: I wouldn't mind slapping a twin-turbo setup on my ol' Clevo, just fer sh*ts an giggles. Somethin' to frighten the bejeezus outta the scoot jockeys and the boy racers...

[areaseven]

[SchizophrenicMC]

I guess you would've wanted to do more than just swap in an SR20DET into the 240?

I'm not a fan of taking the easy way out. Everyone has an SR20, and they're not really all that great an engine, they're expensive, and I don't think they're very pretty. Options I had on the table included turbocharging or supercharging the KA, which would have resulted in respectable, if minimal, power gains, and the most torque of any of my options, or installing a CA18DET with bolt-ons to achieve 300 or so horsepower. A CA18DET is signfiicantly lighter than even the SR20, and its stock internals can withstand far more abuse than the SR20. A KA24DE+R/T would have had more torque than either of those engines, across a more usable band, but it weighs so very much, and adding weight to that engine in a car meant for handling performance is a tad silly.

Then again, there's nowhere around me to drive a car designed for great handling performance. So why even keep the 240? Thinking about a 300ZX Turbo from the late 80s. That'd be fun too.

[reddsun1]

[areaseven]

The new Mustang 4-cylinder EcoBoost is tested.

[SchizophrenicMC]

That Mustang's got some choo-choo, Martin.

[modelglue]

That's incredible. There is a 5.0 GT in the lot I am working at today. It's that nice royal blue, and 46K CAD. I've notified my wife, but I doubt she'll approve.

The 2.3L is a nice alternative to the ground pounding V8's. I just worry about turbo maintenance and burn out. Is that still a concern?

[SchizophrenicMC]

I don't think it's been an issue since approximately 1984. Turbos aren't really all that maintenance intensive- not the modern ones anyway. My grandma has a '13 Fusion, with the 1.6l turbo engine. It has all the get-up-and-go of an engine slightly over twice its size, but a lot less fuel consumption and Ford recommends oil changes at 10,000 mile intervals. Ford also recommends changing the coolant every 100,000 miles, or every 7 years, whichever is first, so cooling isn't an issue there either. I haven't heard of any sensor or fuel system problems with the lineup, and the only problem we've ever had with the car was a loose intercooler pipe, but that was the fault of the technician who performed a recall service on it and didn't properly reconnect the pipe. We're past 30,000 miles now, and still going very nicely. Bumper-to-bumper warranty's about to end, but we've got plenty of time left on the powertrain warranty.

Similarly, my cousin drives a Focus ST. The 2.0l turbo in that has been perfectly reliable for him, albeit less economical than ours has been for us. Because of all the choo-choo, Martin.

Actually, the last time I knew anybody who had turbo-related problems with his car was when that same cousin had a heavily-modified Eclipse GSX. Too fast, too furious bro.

[reddsun1]

Just 'cause they're so. effin'. cool.

[Ignacio Ocamica]

Just 'cause they're so. effin'. cool.

QFT!!!

[reddsun1]

Okay, not exactly automotive. But it's got a motor in it!

How the hell do you even measure that much power?! That's got to be a guesstimate, eh? "--How much is it making? --Plenty!"

[renegadeleader1]

This is it! my last race on the season, and probably for a long time since my brother is moving to Montana next month. With him gone I lose my mechanic, and transportation to and from the track. So much for Minion Motorsports.

Its been a heck of a run.

[reddsun1]

Best of luck! Remember: check every nut and bolt. Then, check 'em again. To finish first, you must first finish.

[renegadeleader1]

Best of luck! Remember: check every nut and bolt. Then, check 'em again. To finish first, you must first finish.

We did everything but check the damn fuel gauge. :doh:

[reddsun1]

They're owned by the second-largest carmaker in the world. They don't have to pander. At low volume, Lamborghini is able to maintain profitability without that pandering. In fact, because they are low volume they're exempt from many regulations. Increasing that volume makes them subject to all kinds of regulations that they weren't affected by, before they came up with the Gallardo. (What a blase car the Gallardo)

Next there's gonna be a Lamborghini F1 team. Friggin' Lamborgaudi.

In other news, I'm thinkng about buying a late first generation 300ZX turbo. I need some meaningful turbo badging in my life.

Wouldn't be the first time an unlikely automaker has dipped their toes into the F1 pool. DeTomaso tried their hand at it back at the end of the 60's/early 70's, without much success. Piers Courage lost his life in a tragic crash and fire at the wheel of a DeTomaso at Zandvoort in '70 IIRC.

Could very well be a PR stunt? That, or they genuinely have no inkling whatsoever of the sheer magnitude of money, R&D, resources, etc. that'd required to be competitive at that level of motorsport. Could be another "Team Hesketh" affair at best. Or at worst, they'll completely embarrass themselves and build some back markers, while pissing away great heaping sh*tloads of money in the process...

Edited October 20, 2014 by reddsun1

[SchizophrenicMC]

Automobili Lamborghini was established by one Ferrucio Lamborghini, who didn't like Enzo Ferrari as a man, and wanted to show his road cars up, but as a tractor-builder originally, he didn't care for racing. Lamborghini's whole history is one of making fast cars and no race cars. Have some pride in your pedigree dammit.

[dizman]

We did everything but check the damn fuel gauge. :doh:

Oooh how many laps did you get in before the sputtering?

Automobili Lamborghini was established by one Ferrucio Lamborghini, who didn't like Enzo Ferrari as a man, and wanted to show his road cars up, but as a tractor-builder originally, he didn't care for racing. Lamborghini's whole history is one of making fast cars and no race cars. Have some pride in your pedigree dammit.

I would love to see Lambo try and get into the F1 race scene because as you said they have such a small history with motorsports. In the end if Audi wants Lamorghini to build an F1 car, they will build a F1 car pedigree be damned.

[SchizophrenicMC]

Which is why I hate corporate takeovers. Renault ruined Nissan, GM ruined Isuzu, and VW AG is ruining Lamborghini.

[Agent ONE]

Which is why I hate corporate takeovers. Renault ruined Nissan, GM ruined Isuzu, and VW AG is ruining Lamborghini.

Can you elaborate on lambo being ruined?

[SchizophrenicMC]

Two words: Gallardo Spyder.

[Agent ONE]

Two words: Gallardo Spyder.

All convertibles are dumb... Loss of structural integrity. Is Ferrari any different?

[SchizophrenicMC]

Lamborghinis are supposed to be an event. One of a very few of that car, handmade, and fairly exclusive. Not the mass-produced homey-looking R8-chassis affair that was the Gallardo, let alone the Spyder. The Gallardo is essentally an Audi R8 V10 with a vaguely Italian-looking body. It's not the exciting affair that Lamborghini used to be. The first time I saw a Diablo, I was amazed, and the first time I saw a Countach (also the last time) I was simply gobsmacked. I've seen 3 Diablos in my life and one Countach. When I see a Gallardo, my reaction is "oh hey a Gallardo." I've stood on a showroom floor that had no fewer than 25 Gallardos of various year sitting on it, around 100 grand a pop.

I have never seen another Countach in person. I have seen more Gallardos than I have Tesla Ses. And they sell the S new here in Dallas.

[derex3592]

Gallardos are kind of abundant around north Dallas for some reason....I drove a 2008 Gallardo a few years back and wasn't impressed AT ALL. It felt like a tank. That being said, I also drove the original Audi R8, and umm...where do I sign??? . But I agree with you about the Gallardo being a bit "boring" compared to older Lambo's. I do however think the Aventador looks like a proper Lambo though....

[SchizophrenicMC]

It's because there's a lot of people in North Dallas with ~$100k to blow on a flashy car, and that's all it takes to get into a Gallardo. And then, when it comes due for the first service since they bought it, they realize they can't justify the cost of servicing a Lambo, even if it is just an Audi, so they sell it to the next poor schmuck.

[Agent ONE]

I see what you are saying but some things have changed since the 1980's.

1. Rarity:

Italian Exotic cars (all of em, Ferrari, Lambo, Alpha, DeTomaso... ) weren't sold in the US back then with rare exception. There was no service network. There were almost no dealers. Many of them lacked modern manufacturing quality standards, therefore were incredibly unreliable, and that hurt demand. These companies couldn't risk irritating customers with a weak dealer/service network in the US. Most of these cars were classified as grey market imports. Since then manufacturing practices have improved, and the companies have grown. Market demand has shown these companies that consumers are not going to pay huge dollars for a car that doesn't start when they turn the key. Growth of these companies means they are less rare. 2000 Contach units were made, compared to 14,000 Gallardo units over each respective model lifetime.

2. Price:

You are dead wrong on the price issue. The 1985 US Countach model had a base price close to $100,000 (wiki - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamborghini_Countach). Accounting for inflation, $100,000 has a current value of $221,319.08 (Annual Inflation: 2.78%/Total Inflation since 1985: 121.32%. This price falls right in the actual price range of a Gallardo seen below from Motor Trend. (WAY off from your assertion of $100k).

2014 Lamborghini Gallardo

Price Range: $191,900 - $259,100 | MPG: 13 city/20 hwy

Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/cars/2014/lamborghini/gallardo/#ixzz3GsxPOIXr

[SchizophrenicMC]

They sold for a fair bit new, but they're all used now, and you'll see them sitting at, around, or below 100k. Good luck getting into a Countach for that much.

What I don't understand is, what's wrong with an exclusive, handmade Italian car? Especially now that they're owned by a company that makes enough profit from any one of its other marques that it could fund Lamborghini indefinitely at a sizeable loss? This isn't Nissan where I'm sad to see the French buggering a legacy with poor design philosophy, this is an icon. It's a history of passion and posters in the bedrooms of children. Every boy I knew as a child had a Countach poster. And that was in the late 90s, after the Diablo had replaced it. I've never known anyone with a poster of a Gallardo.

It's just not the same. And sure, maybe nothing can be the Countach again, but do we need a mini-Lambo? Is that what Lamborghini is now? If you can't afford a Lamborghini, you buy the half-price mini-me version from Audi?

This is an Italian company. I'm going to justify my statements about it, accordingly, by saying "it just doesn't feel right."

[Agent ONE]

They sold for a fair bit new, but they're all used now, and you'll see them sitting at, around, or below 100k. Good luck getting into a Countach for that much.

What I don't understand is, what's wrong with an exclusive, handmade Italian car? Especially now that they're owned by a company that makes enough profit from any one of its other marques that it could fund Lamborghini indefinitely at a sizeable loss? This isn't Nissan where I'm sad to see the French buggering a legacy with poor design philosophy, this is an icon. It's a history of passion and posters in the bedrooms of children. Every boy I knew as a child had a Countach poster. And that was in the late 90s, after the Diablo had replaced it. I've never known anyone with a poster of a Gallardo.

It's just not the same. And sure, maybe nothing can be the Countach again, but do we need a mini-Lambo? Is that what Lamborghini is now? If you can't afford a Lamborghini, you buy the half-price mini-me version from Audi?

This is an Italian company. I'm going to justify my statements about it, accordingly, by saying "it just doesn't feel right."

Hand made = terrible. May work great for shoes and suits, not good for anything mechanical. There is very little precision in hand made products especially when the tolerances required are so small. This is part of the reasons that those icons of the 80's never ran well.

Still not right about the price unless you are speaking about a high miles 10 year old Gallardo (yes its a 10 year old car)

http://www.ebay.com/sch/eBay-Motors-/6000/i.html?_nkw=lamborghini+gallardo&_frs=1

Most buy it now limits are are for 150+

I do know what you mean though with exclusivity. There are more out there... Supply always meets demand.

I don't see the R8 as a mini Lambo... Though the same frame, not the same car at all. I have driven both.

[Vifam7]

Even before VW takeover and the Gallardo, Lamborghini did always try selling lower cost alternatives to the flagship supercar Countach. Models like the Silhouette, Urraco, and Jalpa.

Even Ferrari makes mass-produced V-8 cars next to their exclusive supercars like the Enzo and LaFerrari.

[Agent ONE]

Even before VW takeover and the Gallardo, Lamborghini did always try selling lower cost alternatives to the flagship supercar Countach. Models like the Silhouette, Urraco, and Jalpa.

...

Terrific point, we just didn't see these in the states.

Every company is trying to make money. I don't see a problem with it.

After checking into the price of used Gallardos, now I want one. Schitzo... I think I am going to be one of those schmucks!

What do you guys think, should I trade my 9114s in?