Official - Weapons Banter Thread

[captain america]

Hi Bsu. Thanks for the link! I'm really surprised to find yet another arms manufacturer here in Canada.

JS: Definitely a money thing.

We need the proper $$ to get the prototype built, tested, and if possible, patented. I think that if we can just get it built & tested/proven, geting a manufacturer or an investment firm to commit wil be infinitely easier.

Right now, the 9mm is about 60% done in cad, and my engineer has assured me that he can at least do partial loads testing virtually; maybe even fully. The thing is, knowing that it won't blow up is one thing, but you still need a real working unit to assess whether or not it shoots worth snot

The way I see it, a one-off might cost as much as 10G, then of course you have the testing, for which the costs are as yet unknown. As for patents, we have 4, maybe 5 concepts just on the 9mm that can be patented, and at roughly $30k per patent, it adds up real fast. I think I really just need to win the lottery.

[JsARCLIGHT]

This might be a longshot but you might think about putting an ad in Shotgun News looking for investors or fabricators. SGN is read by just about every firearm market retailer and gun manufacturer in the US... you don't need to show much of anything in the ad, just put out a feeler.

Like I said, when it comes to capital networking, networking, networking. Get in there and hang your shingle out. Someone will bite eventually.

[bsu legato]

This might be a longshot but you might think about putting an ad in Shotgun News looking for investors or fabricators. SGN is read by just about every firearm market retailer and gun manufacturer in the US... you don't need to show much of anything in the ad, just put out a feeler.

Or the....*snicker*....Canadian Access.....*chortle*...To Firearms.

Bwa-hah-hah-hah-hah-haaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

No, seriously. JsARC's idea is pretty good.

[captain america]

Hi guys.

I just wanted to say thank you to all of you. This has been far more insightful & informative than you could immagine. The good thing is that I think we've honed our approach strategy to where we now have a really good direction. THe bad news is that we may yet be up to our collective armpits in legal forms

[CoryHolmes]

THe bad news is that we may yet be up to our collective armpits in legal forms

Funny how that happens whenever someone tells me we're in a a paperless society

[JsARCLIGHT]

As we were speaking about bullpups and "other" type feed guns a few pages back here is a pic from Shot Show showing the soon to be made CIVILIAN legal P90 and F2000.

[bsu legato]

Curse you, I was just going to post those pictures (or similar ones). Does a civvy P-90 mean that FN has loosened their sphincter about the 5.7 ammo?

[JsARCLIGHT]

Yes. 5.7mm ammo is flooding the country (well... the US that is) as we speak.

Mostly because they mass dumped a ton of their new FN Five seveN pistols chambered in that caliber on us.

Edited February 2, 2005 by JsARCLIGHT

[Zentrandude]

hmm interesting i wonder how long till the bullet molds come out. i can always use another set of molds when i get one of them civ p90

[CoryHolmes]

Why do those weapons have barrels on the ends of them? I thought the whole point behind bull-pup style weapons was to have as short a barrel as possible.

[bsu legato]

Why do those weapons have barrels on the ends of them?  I thought the whole point behind bull-pup style weapons was to have as short a barrel as possible.

*cough* Civillian market. *cough*

And since I didn't get to post the pics of the civvy P-90 and FN-2000, here's some pics of a nasty Colt Anaconda KB.

http://iris.nyit.edu/~bithead/anaconda/

Edited February 2, 2005 by bsu legato

[CoryHolmes]

And since I didn't get to post the pics of the civvy P-90 and FN-2000, here's some pics of a nasty Colt Anaconda KB. 

Why let that stop you? Post away. I wanna see more

EDIT

What exactly caused it to explode like that?

Edited February 2, 2005 by CoryHolmes

[Opus]

Dang! that blowed up real nice.

[JsARCLIGHT]

Ah the sweet smell of malfunciton.

As for what exactly caused that malfunction I'd put my guess on one of two things... either a dangerous overloaded handload in a weak casing or the first bullet lodged in the barrel just inside the forcing cone and the second struck the first and "Elmer Fudded" the cyllinder.

I saw something similair happen to a Kimber 1911 once on a range... guy must have been shooting hot handloads and one had a weak case and blew up in chamber. It sent the magazine flying out the bottom of the gun and froze the entire action.

Just more reason to shoot quality ammo... and always expect the unexpected.

[Chowser]

there's different types of ammo for the P90.

not sure of the numbers, but i think the civvie version of the P90 and FiveseveN will have SS196 ammo available which is not AP. I think the AP SS190 ammo is still controlled. the bradys are trying to ban this now, but i think someone at the atf showed them they were full of crap. brady crap on 57

Not really sure, I will have to check. I was giving serious looks at it since HK will not sell it's longguns to civvies and to do a LE buy, I'd have to go through my dept. and they will not do it for me. even for a semi-auto version....

well, still can't find the article, but here is a list of ammo:

SS190 (AP) Standard Ball, 31 gr. FMJ, 2,133 fps.

RESTRICTED SALE - AGENCY DROP-SHIP ONLY per FNH-USA company policy

Fax agency request for quote to (303)762-7342 N/A POR

L191 Tracer, 31 gr. Tracer, 2,133 fps.

RESTRICTED SALE - AGENCY DROP-SHIP ONLY per FNH-USA company policy

Fax agency request for quote to (303)762-7342 N/A POR

SS192 Duty/Training, 28 gr. JHP, 2,034 fps. 50 box/2100 case

Discontinued

SB193 Subsonic, 55 gr. FMJ, 984 fps.

RESTRICTED SALE - AGENCY DROP-SHIP ONLY per FNH-USA company policy

Fax agency request for quote to (303)762-7342 N/A POR

SS196SR, 40 gr. V-Max (Replaces the SS192 round) Not sold where prohibited by law

Unreleased

21.00

box

who knows, as soon as i find the artcle from the atf, i'll post it.

Edited February 2, 2005 by Chowser

[Chowser]

here's the article

atf on fn fiveseven

here's a quick copy

The FN 5.7 (Fabrique Nationale) pistol is a semiautomatic pistol in 5.7 X 28 mm caliber approved for importation as a sporting firearm.

The classification of all ammunition is governed strictly by the definitions presented in the GCA. Specifically, as defined in 18 U.S.C. Section 921(a)(17)(B), the term "armor piercing ammunition" means-

a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.

FTB has also examined a 5.7 X 28 mm projectile that FN Herstal has designated the "SS196." The SS196 is loaded with a Hornady 40 grain, jacketed lead bullet. FTB classified SS196 ammunition as not armor piercing ammunition under Federal firearms statutes.

According to FNH USA, FN Herstal tested the SS192 ammunition. SS192 ammunition did not penetrate the Level IIIA vests that were tested. FNH USA states that SS196, Hornady V-Max 40 gr. bullets fired from a 4-3/4 inch barrel did not penetrate the Level II vests that were used in testing.

FNH USA has informed FTB that SS192 is no longer imported for commercial sale to the United States and that commercial sales of 5.7 X 28mm ammunition are restricted to the SS196 (not armor piercing).

FN Herstal 5.7 X 28mm Ammunition

SS190 - Armor piercing (AP)

SS191 - AP Tracer

SS192 - Hollow Point (not AP)

SB193 - AP Subsonic

SS195 - "Green" - lead free hollow point projectile with copper jacket (not AP)

SS196 - Sporting round (Hornady 40 gr. V-max, hollow point lead), (not AP)

10700004 Blank (not classified as ammunition under Federal law)

10700005 Dummy

[pfunk]

yup, I never use hot rounds.................anymore

WTF would you need a hot round in a .44 is beyond me, my buddies anaconda soots through 1/4" mild plate, no problem, even running a +p in his 9mm just puts dents in it. Guy is Super lucky though, damn

[bsu legato]

I've shot hot-but-not-maximum loads thru my dad's Ruger Super Blackhawk, and it was verging on unpleasant for both the shooter and any bystanders. But you know some people....there's always one bubba who just has to load it a bit hotter.

Conversely, it could have even been a round that was loaded too light. Depending on the powder, too-light loads can have similar nasty results.

[JsARCLIGHT]

Conversely, it could have even been a round that was loaded too light. Depending on the powder, too-light loads can have similar nasty results.

A "Squib" load could have caused that same malfunciton as squibs occasionally do not have enough "oomf" to push the bullet down the barrel and if the shooter did not realize their last shot did not escape the barrel and they pull the trigger again on a normal load that bullet with contact the other one still in the barrel... resulting in an elmer fudd.

[Noriko Takaya]

Maryland's stupid gun laws will prevent one like me from owning a civvie P90 simply because of the magazine capacity laws here. They suck! If I get one I guess I'll have to leave the state, buy some mags, and come on home. That's legal to do, go figure. As for the barrel length, the BATF requires a 16" minimum on all carbines if I remember rightly. However, I was just looking at a FN Five seveN pistol the other day...

[JsARCLIGHT]

Not only does the federal barrel length limit require 16" from breach to muzzle but the overall length cannot be less than 27"... Just by looking at the civvie P90 in that picture makes me want to get out my yardstick. It looks a tad short.

[VF19]

It isn't a carbine, it's an SMG....

As for the ammo types, SS190 should, and will never be allowed on the civvie market. It's copper jacketed STEEL. Last time I heard it was used, they put thermal sights on it and shot a guy through a wall.

196, however, will be allowed, because otherwise, they'd be firing blanks.

And if I recall correctly, someone said the point of having a bullpup was to have as short a barrel as possible, not true. Point is to have the longest barrel in the shortest weapon possible.

[Druna Skass]

Two questions

I can't quite seem to find a good website covering this. But does anyone know the handgun laws in California?

I'm moving into an apartment or condo next year with a friend and I told her I'm getting a gun for the place. She said she can work the slide on an automatic and could only use revolvers (hence the first question). Now the second question is if she can't work the slide on an auto, would she be strong enough to load rounds with a pump shotgun? Because there's no way I'd leave a gun laying around with a loaded chamber.

[JsARCLIGHT]

All I can tell you about Cali law is make sure the guns you intend to own are on the DOJ "approved" list. Also make sure the apartment you rent at does not have some sort of "no guns allowed" clause in it's lease agreement.

As long as your weapon is legal to own in that state and your landlord does not have some sort of restrictions in place on ownership you should be free and clear to have it in the apartment.

Quick question: if you friend is too weak to cycle an automatic what makes you think the kick from a shotgun will not knock them down? I had an older middle aged woman who was reffered to me for handgun training and she also was too weak to cock the slide on most small autos. She wound up with one of those new Smith titanium jobs in if I remember right .38. She could handle it well enough but the recoil still was a tad much for her. She was a very "slight" woman with no upper body strength. I could not see her racking a shotgun in my life. I'd advise taking your friend to some gun shops and have them try out the rack on some shotties and see if they have the mustard to cycle them. Remember that shotties need to be cycled quite fast in order to not jam... then again you could always get a semiauto shotty.

Edit: it should also be added that shotguns are the tank cannons of the personal weapon world. Unless you go with a 20 ga. youth model the kick on most shotties is fair to moderate. Sure they have the benefit of not really needing to "aim" at close range but most of them tend to be quite large, unwieldy things in tight spaces. Most combat shotguns are intended for breaching doorways and not defending homes.

Edited February 3, 2005 by JsARCLIGHT

[Opus]

Two questions

I can't quite seem to find a good website covering this. But does anyone know the handgun laws in California?

I'm moving into an apartment or condo next year with a friend and I told her I'm getting a gun for the place. She said she can work the slide on an automatic and could only use revolvers (hence the first question). Now the second question is if she can't work the slide on an auto, would she be strong enough to load rounds with a pump shotgun? Because there's no way I'd leave a gun laying around with a loaded chamber.

The best place to find state laws is the state police or attorney general's sites.

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/index.html

If you friend is so weak she can't cycle an auto a shotgun would tear her arm off. I'd say a gun is not for her. Get her a nice nice big cannister of CS instead.

[Zentrandude]

I would send her to a1 and bulk up on the muscle mass. If she can't pull the slide on an semi-auto you can always break in the sping so its little bit easier to pull back. My 10mm was like that at first and having a very slippery surface on the slide didn't help much.

[Opus]

I wouldn't trust A1 with my women or my doorknobs.

[Druna Skass]

Well it's not that she's a really small person, it's something with her wrist. She's fired guns before with an ex and can handle recoil.

So I'll check out the laws and the lease and if I can't get a revolver, I'll keep breaking in the spring in mind. The thing is I'd like to have the shotgun since a cop has told me that they've avoided confrontations just by raking the shotgun slide.

[Opus]

Something else you should look into is California's laws regading home invasion and self defese. Here in VA the person has to be in your house and you have to prove that you had no way to escape but in Texas you can shoot someone for trying tring to steal your car.

[JsARCLIGHT]

Well it's not that she's a really small person, it's something with her wrist. She's fired guns before with an ex and can handle recoil.

So I'll check out the laws and the lease and if I can't get a revolver, I'll keep breaking in the spring in mind. The thing is I'd like to have the shotgun since a cop has told me that they've avoided confrontations just by raking the shotgun slide.

Racking the slide on a shotgun is one of the most distinct and easily recognisable sounds in the world. Almost everyone knows that Ka-Chunk-Chunk noise when they hear it. It's also good if possible to yell out a "Dirty Harry" phrase ("I've got a 12 gauge loaded with doube oh magnum buck! This thing will cut you in half! I don't want that stain on my carpet so please leave now!") when racking the slide from behind a door to put the fear into them even more.

Most criminals are cowards and usually want nothing to do with a determined homeowner with a loaded shotgun. Just remember what Opus said though, in most states your ability to defend your property and home can sometimes be quite limited.

[Chowser]

oh yes, the sound of a shotgun racking is a beautiful sound. I kinda miss it since we switched to semi-autos, now, all we hear is chik-chik.

back when we had pumps, we were chasing some car thieves, and one actually climbed a tree and refused to come down and told us to come and get him.

I racked the shotgun and said, "alright, it's duck hunting season, what, aw, c'mon sarge, how 'bout just a few warning shots, or can i just wing'im?" needless to say, he got down with a quickness.

most states are probably the same as in, you have a duty to retreat if you can do it safely, you can't use deadly force to defend property, you can only use deadly force to defend your life or the life of another that you believe is in imminent danger of serious physical harm or death. best thing is, when the boys in blue show up, say, officer, i was in fear for my life (or life of family member, pets don't count and are actually considered property). i thought that mofo was going to kill me. he said he was gonna cut me up and kill/rape/maim my family. (dead guys can't contradict you, but it's easier to tell the truth, this way, you won't have to remember what you lied about at a later date). yada, yada, yada.

and no, you can't shoot'em on your porch, drag'em in and put a kitchen knife in their hand. been done, we saw right through it, etc. etc.

[Chowser]

but in Texas you can shoot someone for trying tring to steal your car.

man, wish I lived in Texas...

caught a guy coming out of my kitchen window (back of the house) two years ago with my wife's purse in his hand, and i was trying to call my pregnant wife all the way home, and first thing i wanted to do was shoot the guy dead, but after i started screaming at him, i saw my wife come to the second floor window and could see that she was ok, so the ass beating began. he was in no condition to do anything when the local city pd finally showed up (over 2 hours later). damn punk. turns out he was a friend of the teenager next door. now my one neighbor wont talk to me cuz i hurt one of their kid's friends. whatever...neighbors come, neighbors go, but i don't have anymore neighbor problems now.

especially in the spring/summer time when i'm out back doing tameshigiri...

Edited February 5, 2005 by Chowser

[Mechamaniac]

Ahh, it feels good to be bad!.

Saturday, I stopped in to my local gun shop, and lo and behold, there was a nice used Springfield Armory 1911A1 that was one of their upscale modded guns. This one has the upgraded barrel bushing, the commander style hammer, replacement beavertail safety etc. So, I plunked down, and snagged it. I'll post pics when I pick it up next week.

Also, they had another tempting item there. They had some of the old S&W K frame .357 Model 10's that used to be issued to our local PD before they went to automatics back in the late 80's. My Dad had one just like it. They were a real bargain as well, and I just have a soft spot for that old 4" .357. Plus, at that price, it's the perfect home defense weapon. Dunno, I might get weak when I go back to pick up the 1911, and snag that one too.

[Mechamaniac]

OK, well CRAP!!!

I was thinking about getting the Para Ordnance pistol they had when I bought my Springfield, but it only comes with a 10 round mag.

14 round .45 mags are 50 bucks??

I mean, damn, they weren't that expensive back during the weapons ban era, what gives??

Guess I'm gonna pass on the Para Ordnance after all.

[JsARCLIGHT]

Damn, who is charging you that much for Paraord mags? Are they P14's?

You can get factory Paraords for $40 at a few spots I know and MecGar repro mags for about $20. I have a slew of MecGars for a few of my pistols and they seem to work just fine.