Macross TV or DYRL?

[mpchi]

Its hard to say one better than the other, as I view them as one, 2 components working hand in hand. DYRL is definitely the one that defines the visual for me. When I think of classic Macross, its mostly DYRL visuals that pop up in my head. Its still a visual marvel to behold today, even though its dated back in 84. But it doesn't have all the details and character development from the TV series. Just by viewing DYRL, characters are very shallow for someone never seen the TV series. When we feel like we know the characters like Focker, Hikaru, Minmay and such, its the TV series characters that we actually know, as DYRL gives us very little info of who they are.

So in the end, can't vote one over the other. To me, classic Macross = TV Series + DYRL.

[mikeszekely]

I voted TV. The story and pacing was so much better there. I see some are arguing that the movie is more focused on the Hikaru-Minmay-Misa love triangle, but it actually tosses in a lost Protoculture city and a Zentradi vs. Meltrandi subplot.

Yeah, the art is more detailed, which makes DYRL prettier to look at, which is fine. It also makes for a complete story in a package that can be watched in one sitting. That doesn't make up for the fact that the story is greatly inferior.

[SchizophrenicMC]

I asked the very same question to my wife and we both agreed both.

we both started watching Macross in Japan on the Air force base

when it was re-shown on tv in 1987 we saw the Movie at the base Theatre

in 1988 we watched it again in Hawaii in 1989 and so i feel the same way

Macross is very specail to both me and my wife.

Like old friends we still love the Laserdisc,VCDs,VHS, and dvds we collected.

we love the new Macross we picked up in Hawaii a 3 disc all episode

Macross Frontier dvd and its something that stills holds magic for us both

and from what you typed you feel the same way.

Me and my wife grew up on the base housing called the Flight line and we loved the

Jets and personel we saw from our backyards.

Being Air force brats Macross is very special because from where we sat we saw real Jets

and pilots.

Koushiro, are you a member on CombatAce Forums? I could swear I know a Koushiro there... Maybe not, I dunno.

Yeah, DYRL? has the better visuals, TV has the story.

Maybe Macross Ace will have it TV Story, DYRL? Designs, something I accept as canon to begin with.

[VFTF1]

hey, i know you have a girlfriend who looks like Misa (that is you, right?), but, woah, that's harsh on minmay. you just stopped short of calling her a sl*t.

Yeah...my girlfriend is older than me, has a "really important job" where she bosses people around and has the reputation for being a "demon lady," but at the same time is cute, good looking and oscilates between a foul temper and womanly helplessness. She also generally fit Misa's looks (brown/hazel long hair, green eyes, and those cute little ears:) )...

In any event - sorry if I came down too harsh on Minmey - I really do like her. The thing is, whenever I write about Minmey and Misa comparatively, I think it always seems like I'm coming down harsh on Minmey because - by comparisson - I'm praising Misa to the moon

i did not see it as a "i'll sleep with you even if you already slept with misa coz i own you" thing. rather, to me, it was more of an "i understand, those were crazy times, we all thought we were gonna die. i forgive you, and i still love you" kind of thing. and from my perspective, i didn't notice any indication that minmay didn't really love Hikaru in DYRL. in SDFM, maybe, but not DYRL. from all indications, Hikaru could very well have been the first and only love of her life

I guess this is possible. She seemed authentically "In love" when Hikaru busted through the Zentran ship's wall to "save her" (and failed).

HOWEVER:

Notice that Misa COULD have also taken the "well I don't care what you did/have been doing with this woman [Minmey]" routine as well and the two ladies could have sat there and argued it out.

Instead - they reacted to the sitution in accordance to their characters:

Misa: broke down crying and told Hikaru to go after Minmey because Misa accepted that a) obviously no man would ever really want to be with such a shrew like her and b) she loved Hikaru and wanted him to be happy - even if that meant "giving him" to Minmey. [All of this indicates a very lady-like and caring character that is humble, and focused on pleasing the man].

Minmey: Ran off in "tears" thereby giving a not-so-subtle hint to Hikaru which read: "Run after me - you know you want to - now you're going to have to after what you said - now you'll have to beg me! I'm waiting! Here doggy! All the other guys run after me. Here boy!" [which indicates a very lowly character that sees men as toys and which is aware that there will always be hords of men running to get her, and which NEVER asks whether any of those men are actually worth it]. This is also supported by how she reacts to Hikaru when Hikaru DOES run after her. She goes so far as to say that she doesn't care if everyone else on the Macross dies. That's not love. That's selfishness and pettiness. That's looking at Hikaru as a teddy bear or a box of chocolates that only she can have. It's totally the opposite of Misa who sees Hikaru as a human being with the right to be happy with another woman - and takes Hikaru's love seriously enough to believe that he might want to run after Minmay out of authentic love...

As for Hikaru being the only meany in the traingle - Well - you COULD say that; but it's more likely that the guy is ALWAYS at fault in such situation - and that is the fate of guys. We're there to comfort women, to make them feel good, and then to get a barrel of crap unloaded on us and be called worthless and chucked away until the next day, when they need a hug or a lightbulb screwed in.

Pete

[Bri]

I don't think DYRL is completly fair to Minmey. Let me explain:

Friendship is the foundation of Hikaru's and Minmeys relationship in SDFM.

Both Minmey and Misa need Hikaru but in a different way. Hikaru is Minmeys friend and confidant. She isn't looking for a lover but an equal she can trust and fall back on when things get tough. In the end I think that is why Minmey can let go of Hikaru in SFDM. Even with Misa as Hikaru's love interest she will still have the most important part of their relationship: their friendship.

Hikaru is physcially attracted to Minmay(makes me wonder of he ever took a good look at Misa -Hello-) and feels a kind of big brother like need to protect her. He wants to be needed -which shows his own insecurity- but Minmey is way to independant and selfcentered to truely need him. Idolsinger Minmey can have pretty much any guy she likes (plus a whole fleet of Zentradi who would die for her). She wants a true friend.

This element goes missing in DYRL as the time Minmey and Hikaru have together is too short and Minmey is already a star so Hikaru is never her equal.

Misa is different. She has built a wall around herself to keep people away.

Misa acts the tough carreer officer routine but is very insecure as a private person. Hikaru just goes straight through Misa's defences with his sincerity. If she messes up or does something he doesn't like he will tell her off no matter if she is a superior officer or not. Only Global, Claudia and Hikaru ever get to see the real Misa. Hikaru is the only guy she can reach out to. In both SDFM and DYRL you can see that their mutual understanding and respect grows. Both are so insecure and it's touching to see them realise: -Oh, he/she really likes me- .

I agree with VTF1s reading of the scene where Minmey runs of. DYRL Misa easily wins over Minmey. SDFM's Minmey is far more noble then her movie counterpart, altough I'm firmly in the Misa camp. Still a relationship between an insecure and an indepandant person can work as we saw with Claudia and Roy(Claudia did reach a level of understanding Roy that made it bearable for her, I don't see Hikara achieve that with Minmey). I guess it comes down to person preferance what type of person you like as both women have their fare share of fans.

[Killer Robot]

This element goes missing in DYRL as the time Minmey and Hikaru have together is too short and Minmey is already a star so Hikaru is never her equal.

This reminds me of something else, in that SDFM Hikaru has a story arc beyond just his love life. It's also a long arc about his going from a talented kid that doesn't understand or like Roy's choice to be a military pilot, through becoming a soldier himself, through the responsibility of command, losses of friends and teammates, all sorts of experiences culminating in a seasoned and responsible veteran making the final realization that Minmay doesn't really understand him when she asks him to leave the military and throw away such a large part of himself. By contrast, DYRL Hikaru grows up from a young soldier to a young soldier that gets to personally gun down the big bad guy.

Sure, almost every stage of Hikaru's development touches on the girls, but there's a personal war story/coming of age story in there as well as a relationship story, and it probably got hit even harder in the translation to a shorter film format.

[VFTF1]

Both Killer Robot and Bri hit on some really good points. Can't argue with either of you guys. But does this all mean that Misa's character is really one dimmensional - since she looses the least and is the easiest to transfer out of the series into the movie?

Also - about Misa- I think that something which can be inferred, although it's never said - about why she is the way is is comes from her past with Riber. She was in love with Riber, and then Riber dissappeared. It's never shown, but I can see Misa engrossing herself more and more into her military role and her job to forget about the pain of such a loss.

Also - given her family's miltary habits, I don't imagine Misa ever learned how to do much soul-searching or come to terms with things like love and womanliness. As she herself said at on point, she's very much like the Zendradi in a way. Anyways - this would probably make the scars left by Riber's loss all the bigger.

I think it's interesting that they show Riber in the movie - show that part of Misa. They make no comments on it, there is no narration - if you haven't seen the series you just have to infer that it's a lost love of sorts...

But - yeah - interesting that they keep that part of Misa's past in the movie, while Minmey does indeed just get "reduced" to being an idol - and nothing more.

And another thing about the movie which bugs me:

THEY NEVER SAY WHY THE MACROSS IS FLYING AROUND IN SPACE in the first place. It almost feels as if the Macross is like an ark that managed to ESCAPE Earth - but then why would it be flying back...?

Anyways - this is really a downside to the movie.

Pete

[Bri]

Your right, it's just like the first part of the movie is missing. It was the first thing a friend asked when I loaned him my clash of the bionoids - why is that ship in space?-

About Misa:

I don't think the character is shallow at all. My guess would be that the writers wanted a clear resolution of the triangle for the part of the movie audience who had not seen SDFM. So they made Minmey weaker while leaving Misa intact. For me movie Misa would still win over SDFM Minmey just with less difference. (Wonder if this will happen in the Frontier movie).

[lebhead]

TV series. Can't beat nostalgia!

DYRL just had to cover too much ground in too short of a span. Maybe if it were a 5 part OVA. Of course DYRL looked so damn cool though.

[Killer Robot]

Misa's story probably got cut least from SDFM to DYRL because there was less of it to start. Not that she was one-dimensional or badly handled, I should clarifiy. Quite apart from the relationship dynamic Hikaru and Minmay both had a lot of growing up to do in their path from being two kids to a seasoned pilot and a famous singer/actress, and needed a lot of story attention showing how this transformed their lives. This needed time and a lot of stages. Misa on the other hand was young but she was a professional with a career and authority to start, and the transition from her role at the beginning and the end of the series was smaller: for her the personal story was learning to open up again and have something outside of her work. That was a lot easier to do inside of two hours of animation than what happened with the other two.

What did get cut for Misa was her role as most central character involved in the political/ideological conflicts among the upper levels of human command, but that was less a character development engine for her in a direct sense, so while I know many people miss it in DYRL, it doesn't feel like a lacking in her part.

[VFTF1]

Well - something else that got cut was the butt grabbing scene between Misa and Hikaru. And I'm not just mentioning that to evoke images of Misa's butt, although that might be a pleasant side effect. The butt grabbing scene happened in an episode which was pretty symptomatic of the slow development of Hikaru and Misa's love - and particularly of the "opening up" to love that Killer Robot mentions Misa went through...

Now that I think of it - this opening up took on many shapes and was presented with many different shades in SDFM TV - not just in the "notices something outside her work" shade - but more like "womanliness vs. professionalism" or something like that. I guess I'm just now recalling to mind all of the little scenes where Misa flashes her womanliness before us - and in those moments she becomes so lovable.

In DYRL, this really happened only twice: once on the devastated Earth, in the tent - and really it didn't so much happen in a visual sense as Misa just basically explicitly SAID it ("oh how ironic, I, super-woman soldier, helpless and needy while you, insubordinate man who doesn't fit in - so in control and manly") - and the second time being her extacy when Hikaru says he had always loved her...

Meanwhile - in SDFM TV - it comes in short spurts. My favorite is when they get stuck during the Transformation in that segment and end up talking - again - on a personal level and getting closer and closer - and as they seem about to kiss - the alarm is lifted and they are freed. Then, towards the end, as they are about to go their seperate ways - suddenly - BANG!

Misa reaches for Hikaru's hand and motions that he stay with her a while. Just this one episode - which went from "you pervert! you grabbed my butt (although it felt good)!" to "Yes, I secretly love Kaifun like you love Minmey (so we can never be together)" to "screw appearances and conventions - I'm tired - hold my hand and walk with me because I'm happy with you around."

The love story in SDFM TV is far more pronounced because we have episodes like that one (Shau Pi Lon) where the entire episode is really dedicated to fleshing out just the love story of Misa and Hikaru - kind of...hm...a bit like when Minmey and Hikaru were trapped, just, much sadder, less dramatic, more somber...

Pete

[Vifam7]

It's really not fair to compare DYRL to the TV series. One is a TV series that has the luxury of telling a story over 36 episodes. The other is a movie that runs about 2 hours. You can't expect a 2-hour movie to tell everything that a TV series does.

DYRL itself is a beautifully produced movie which essentially tells the TV series story at a slightly different angle and shorter timeframe. In the end it still has the same moral.

DYRL (IMHO) is one of the best composed anime movies ever. Comparing it to the TV series and knocking it for not having certain parts more developed makes no sense. Both should be enjoyed for what they are. Not what they aren't.

That said, some of the complaints against DYRL could exactly be what critics in the Macross universe might say about the movie. I could see it now - News headline: "SDF-1 veterans trashes new movie about Space War 1. Critics call it inaccurate and historical revisionism." XD

Edited January 26, 2009 by Vifam7

[Sdf Prime]

You know, after reading all of this, I think we need a super extended DYRL. Add an hour or two to help flesh everything out and give screen time to the characters that didn't get that much in the film like Global, Roy and Max. But if you were going to go through the trouble of adding all that additional footage to the beginning of the film and peppering additional scene throughout you might as well just make a OVA or something to give you the additional time needed to do every thing.

Though I don't think I would really want anyone to mess with the original characters and story line again. Theres just to much of a chance of somebody screwing it up, and then you have a new debate SDF, DYRL or OVA which is cannon and and then we will be told 'somewhere in between ' the three, and the we all break down and cry .

[Gubaba]

It's really not fair to compare DYRL to the TV series. One is a TV series that has the luxury of telling a story over 36 episodes. The other is a movie that runs about 2 hours. You can't expect a 2-hour movie to tell everything that a TV series does.

DYRL itself is a beautifully produced movie which essentially tells the TV series story at a slightly different angle and shorter timeframe. In the end it still has the same moral.

DYRL (IMHO) is one of the best composed anime movies ever. Comparing it to the TV series and knocking it for not having certain parts more developed makes no sense. Both should be enjoyed for what they are. Not what they aren't.

That said, some of the complaints against DYRL could exactly be what critics in the Macross universe might say about the movie. I could see it now - News headline: "SDF-1 veterans trashes new movie about Space War 1. Critics call it inaccurate and historical revisionism." XD

I agree with everything you said (especially that last point...everyone here compares DYRL in-universe to the Pearl Harbor movie...now imagine if Pearl Harbor had had Korean War-era uniforms and aircraft, and said that the base on Pearl Harbor had been attacked by the Japanese AND, say, the Italians. WWII buffs would be having seizures).

I'm not really sure why everyone is saying that DYRL doesn't stand on its own...it's not really MEANT to...it's a supplement to the TV version, not a replacement. In effect, Studio Nue is saying, "You liked that? Okay, here's more, and it looks AWESOME!" To fit the story into a movie, they had to eliminate all but the most important plot points, and they managed to bring those out rather cleverly by creating the idea of the Protoculture pop song.

If someone put a gun to my head and said I had to choose one, I'd pick SDFM because it's fuller. But since no one is doing that, I refuse to pick one. I love them both, and they compliment each other in a wonderful way, each becoming stronger because of the existence of the other.

[SchizophrenicMC]

Somehow, I wanna pick DYRL? because of episode 32...

Other than that, it's 50/50...

[dreamweaver13]

If someone put a gun to my head and said I had to choose one, I'd pick SDFM because it's fuller. But since no one is doing that, I refuse to pick one. I love them both, and they compliment each other in a wonderful way, each becoming stronger because of the existence of the other.

Choose, dammit!

Edited January 26, 2009 by dreamweaver13

[Gubaba]

Choose, dammit!

SDFM! SDFM! SDFM!!!!

J-Just let her go, dammit!

And if you've hurt her, I'll, I'll...do, uh, something.

[dreamweaver13]

I agree with VTF1s reading of the scene where Minmey runs of. DYRL Misa easily wins over Minmey. SDFM's Minmey is far more noble then her movie counterpart, altough I'm firmly in the Misa camp. Still a relationship between an insecure and an indepandant person can work as we saw with Claudia and Roy(Claudia did reach a level of understanding Roy that made it bearable for her, I don't see Hikara achieve that with Minmey). I guess it comes down to person preferance what type of person you like as both women have their fare share of fans.

This is where i differ in opinion. for me, in SDFM, misa wins out because the development of the romance between her and hikaru was thoroughly developed, while minmei was the girl who realized her feelings a bit too late (if she really did). in DYRL, i'd have to give minmay the edge because she never really wavered in her feelings from the time she met hikaru to the end. the misa angle just came out of nowhere. and if i had no SDFM background, there just wasn't enough development from bickering enemies, to friends and to lovers.

[Morpheus]

I'm also with Gubaba on this one (before his avatar is being held at gunpoint ). I liked both SDFM and DYRL, I think they both complement each other.

From SDFM, We got the background story of the UN-Zentraedi war and most of the character background while DYRL greatly emphasize itself on Hikaru-Misa-Minmay relation ship and the final battle with the Zentraedi itself. In SDFM I think we didn't see Misa and Minmay together, all I can remember is when Misa went into Hikaru home and found him living together with Minmay and also in the last episode where they talk to each other. In DYRL, their first meeting (Misa-Minmay) is much more intense (I think it was during the ceremony) and climaxed in Hikaru's room.

Well, talking about SDFM vs DYRL, I think most people will talk about the plot and character development rather than talking about mecha pron.

[Protoculture]

Have always prefers SDFM over DYRL. Its nostalgia thingie, since I'd watched original SDF:M in late 1980s before Robotech version 'corrupted' me.

Safe to say, getting around watching DYRL re-converted me back as Macross-lover.

SDF:M is fuller & richer story, it started the great franchise we loved today. As for DYRL, its a visual fest, makes Minmay a greater star, Hikaru Mikimoto rich refined character designs, & yes, VF-1 STRIKE Valkyrie!

Seeing the entire SDF:M, followed by 2 hrs DYRL & a nice goodbye of Flashback 2012, is a nostalgia fest to me. And now, even Hal is back for the serialised Macross the First manga, a mish mash of SDF:M with DYRL! Gotta loved that retcon!

Edited January 27, 2009 by Protoculture

[Beltane70]

I could never pick between Macross TV and DYRL. I like them both for different things, and as others have said, I think the two complement each other

In a perfect Macross world, I'd have the story of the TV series with the animation of DYRL.

[edwin3060]

In a perfect Macross world, I'd have the story of the TV series with the animation of DYRL.

I think that's what SK has sort of established as his canon-- notwithstanding any future changes he might want to make

[Killer Robot]

I think that's what SK has sort of established as his canon-- notwithstanding any future changes he might want to make

From what I hear, the new manga seems to bear that out so far.

[westfall]

Personally, if forced to choose one, i would choose DYRL.

But what would be really awesome? A TV series with the animation quality of the movie.

I know most people are against remakes but after seeing Macross Frontier and all that VF-25 eye candy, who wouldn't like a remake of the original Macross with state of the art animation? The original, with all its strengths is seriously lacking, going from standard 80's quality (for the most part) to flat out mediocre quality. I mean, i like it but sometimes... argh! it hurts your eyes.

Same story (with just a few tweaks) + quality animation = awesome. Have Kanno do the soundtrack and i'll be in Macross heaven.

It's part of my anime wish trifecta: SDF Macross remake + GITS SAC Season 3 + Akira TV Series (or OVA).

[VFTF1]

You know - I usually can't stand remakes, and I'm usually scared of them. But and SDF TV remake with the same quality animation as Frontier would be wonderful.

Pete

[edwin3060]

But you know its not going to be the same! They gotta modernise the story... put it in the current context...throw in a handful of conservative bashing...wait.. this isn't hollywood, is it?

[SchizophrenicMC]

You know - I usually can't stand remakes, and I'm usually scared of them. But and SDF TV remake with the same quality animation as Frontier would be wonderful.

Pete

...Wasn't Frontier a remake of SDF TV?

I hate remakes. However, THIS is how remakes are meant to be made. RoE OWNS!

[westfall]

...Wasn't Frontier a remake of SDF TV?

I hate remakes. However, THIS is how remakes are meant to be made. RoE OWNS!

I wouldn't call Frontier a remake. As a 25th anniversary celebration project it has A LOT of references to SDFM as well as to Plus, 7 and Zero. But its not a remake.

RoE, now that IS a remake. And you're right, it's awesome. If only all remakes were done as RoE...

[dreamweaver13]

You know - I usually can't stand remakes, and I'm usually scared of them. But and SDF TV remake with the same quality animation as Frontier would be wonderful.

Pete

that would be cool. provided that the original mikimoto designs would be used. MF character designs on the old crew just won't work for me.

p.s. LOL on the pic. that's a pretty big minmay figure.

[Vifam7]

I wouldn't call Frontier a remake. As a 25th anniversary celebration project it has A LOT of references to SDFM as well as to Plus, 7 and Zero. But its not a remake.

RoE, now that IS a remake. And you're right, it's awesome. If only all remakes were done as RoE...

Umm... DYRL was an awesome the remake of Macross TV.

Anyone who thinks DYRL "wasn't that good" should get their head examined. IMHO.

[westfall]

Umm... DYRL was an awesome the remake of Macross TV.

Anyone who thinks DYRL "wasn't that good" should get their head examined. IMHO.

When i said they should do a remake of SDFM i was talking in terms of a TV series. I NEVER said DYRL wasn't good, it's a great film. What i said was the TV series was really poor and that a remake with with Frontiers animation quality would be awesome.

that would be cool. provided that the original mikimoto designs would be used. MF character designs on the old crew just won't work for me.

Yeah, they should keep the original designs. Just update the animation. The only things i would maybe change would be update the story a bit and the music. SDFM's music is not bad but as i said, put a Yoko Kanno soundtrack on it and i'll be in heaven.

[edwin3060]

The original character designs would look out of place if you update everything else though-- I think the character designs as per the Macross Ace book should be fine.

[Apollo Leader]

I would chose DYRL. A more mature storyline, getting rid of the more goofy elements of the TV series (ie. having an aircraft carrier and a troop/cargo transport mounted to the SDF-1 - the Gundam "movies" got rid of some of the more silly aspects/mechanical designs of its TV series as well), killer artwork and animation (that is also consistant), a great soundtrack, a better refinement of the Hikaru/Misa/Minmay love traingle, etc., etc., etc. The biggest flaw of DYRL is that in order to get the best appreciation of the film in helps to have seen the TV series first; I saw Attack of the Bionoids before I saw either Macross or Robotech The Macross Saga and I was a bit confused on what was going on. Of course with a 2 hour movie it can't possibly flesh things out like a full series.

The Macross TV series comes out on top in that it has 36 episodes to flesh things out. But the horrible inconsistancies in the artwork and animation and that the last 9 episodes were quite clearly tacked on (Episode 27 was clearly suppose to be the last episode and that Hikaru had clearly had picked Misa over Minmay at that point) are definitely its biggest flaws.

But regardless, both are classics in their own right.

[Dynaman]

Episode 27 was clearly suppose to be the last episode and that Hikaru had clearly had picked Misa over Minmay at that point

Agreed - I always wondered if the last few episodes would have worked better if Misa and Hikaru had some kind of falling out in episode 28, rather then Hikaru not having made up his mind yet. The last few episodes could have been the two of them remembering what it is attracted them to each other in the first place.

(Yup, I'm a new guy just coming out of Lurker mode)

[VFTF1]

I always wondered if the last few episodes would have worked better if Misa and Hikaru had some kind of falling out in episode 28

I can't remember the exact chronology - but Hikaru and Misa did have a falling out - probably not in ep. 28 exactly - but I remember Misa was wondering where Hikaru was and it turned out he'd seen Minmey...

But the main falling out was over the photo album - Misa's doing the dishes, laundry, cleaning - and Hikaru's got pictures of a nother woman up all over the place and a photo album full of cute Minmey pictures.

In what I consider to be one of the most beautiful scenes in the whole series, Misa approaches him and slips him photos and runs away before he can realize what they are - and they are of course cute lovely photos of MISA.

Great great GREAT moment.

I personally don't think the rest of the episodes were rushed or filler - they are part of what makes SDFM such a cult classic - there is not easy rosey ending - and we see that love is a difficult thing - and how petty people can be once physical danger has passed and the illusion of peace prevails...

But - anyways - lots of great moments in that last third of the series.

Welcome to the forum!

Pete