Robotech and HG license debates

[TheLoneWolf]

Okay question. Since part of the reason HG tried to stop the Macross Plus valks from being released here in the states was their belief that they own all things Macross

We don't know what HG believes. We can be fairly certain that the M+ Valks didn't get released because HG wanted to be paid royalties if they were released in the US, and BW wouldn't allow that.

Actually, Toycom has gone on record stating that they were willing to pay royalties to both Big West and Harmony Gold, but HG wouldn't hear any of it.

Perhaps, in retrospect, HG was worried that a future court would find them at fault for accepting royalties for shows that HG knew were not in their license. HG would not be able to plead uninformed ignorance, as it would be difficult to convince a court that they were not aware of what their license even contained. In this case, HG's best bet was to blow a lot of hot air at Toycom and pray that Toycom folds, and that's exactly what happened. Just my nickel.

edit: syntax

Edited March 25, 2004 by TheLoneWolf

[ewilen]

Can you cite a source for that?

The most complete account of the negotiations that I've found is in the news reports at http://www.valkyrie-exchange.com/newsarchive.html

The entry for October 30, 2000 states:

Toycom gave us the official confirmation late Friday that the Macross Plus Valkyries will not be released in the US market by the end of this year.. Apparently, the licensing negotiations remain open despite Toycom's effort to offer royalty payments to BOTH Harmony Gold and Big West. Toycom still has hopes to get a US release of the Valkyries and is pushing hard to get these Valkyries out sometime early 2001. No definitive dates have been set.

From previous comments on this forum, it's always been my impression that Big West wouldn't allow Toycom to pay royalties to both BW and HG. However, this is the first time I've seen an account as detailed as yours (not to mention contrary to what I'd been led to believe).

Also, your account doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Even though HG knew their copyright claims were weak, they could still assert trademark claims in reasonably good faith. I don't happen to agree with their trademark/dilution/market confusion argument, but I doubt they would be found at fault for making it. And I'm fairly certain they could base their royalty demands on that argument.

On the other hand, by allowing payment of royalties to HG for a property that BW believed it owned exclusively, BW would be giving up control of the Macross franchise, at least in North America. It would be extremely difficult for them to later turn around and attempt to reassert their exclusive rights. This interpretation is consistent with the belief that BW disallowed the payment of royalties to HG. (Of course, things could be more complicated--for example, hypothetically, BW might have been willing to accept some form of compensation to HG that couldn't be construed as a royalty, but HG wouldn't accept that.)

Incidentally, in http://www.valkyrie-exchange.com/news/toynami/1242001.html (Interview with George Sohn) Kevin writes:

Mid through the 2000 year, Harmony Gold served papers to Toycom and asked them to cease and desist the line until the property can be resolved with Big West.  Surprisingly, Harmony Gold had allowed Toycom to display the Valkyries at the San Diego show, where both Harmony Gold and Big West could meet to discuss the issues. This is where the Macross troubles began…

US Licensing of Macross/Robotech: History 101

Now with Harmony Gold and Big West negotiating, Toycom was stuck in the middle, still with the lawsuit. As the owner of Toycom, George was directly named on the suit.

Initially, the passage refers to HG "serving papers" and asking Toycom to "cease and desist". Later, a "lawsuit" or "suit" is mentioned. Does anyone know if an actual lawsuit was filed? My impression has always been that there was no actual suit, just a C&D communication.

[Gaijin]

HG, if it didn't go after Macross named stuff probably feared that they might lose it. It can happen, if a company doesn't protect it's rights to a license, why should anyone bother to care if they decide to one day do that. They wised up(in turn, screwing many Macross fans), and fought for whatever they thought a US court would probably think that they owned.

As it stands, I believe that perhaps all the licensing issues may have been ironed out, and HG will hopefully be "kind" to the Macross fans. They can't afford not to. They KNOW how much cash is being lost to imported stuff.

[agass4u]

Can't we just blow up HG and then that would solve the problem. I mean they deserve it for making the Shaka Zulu movie anyway. Man that was a horrable movie.

[agass4u]

Wait a minute, what about this. I think it was in this area where someone asked why BW is going off the DYRL sotry. What if the reason they are doing that is so they can try to work around HG owning the rights to SDF. If they go off DYRL, that means different animation, so they dont need to say anything to HG. What does everyone think, or am i just high?

Edited April 9, 2004 by agass4u

[JB0]

Wait a minute, what about this. I think it was in this area where someone asked why BW is going off the DYRL sotry. What if the reason they are doing that is so they can try to work around HG owning the rights to SDF. If they go off DYRL, that means different animation, so they dont need to say anything to HG. What does everyone think, or am i just high?

They're going off the TV story. Essentially.

They just use the DYRL art style.

Which doesn't matter, since HG's claim is htey own Macross, not the original TV series.

[muswp1]

Gee, this is the quietest this thread has been in a while...

[Pat Payne]

Ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh....don't jinx it!

[wrylac]

yyyyyyyyaaaaaaaawwwwwnnnnnnnn...

wha...somebody say something...right...just keep the q-tip out of your mouth before you cut yourself...*zonk*

[muswp1]

Here we go again guys...

Toynami sending out C&D Letters to Yamato Dealers

My take on this, same s###, different day. It failed before and it will do so again.

[muswp1]

Ok, this may have been brought up before, but...

Robotech DYRL Super and Strike Superposables

Since when does HG have merchandise rights to that show???

EDIT: Bad grammar.

Edited May 4, 2004 by muswp1

[Effect]

Tommy Yune said in RT.com's chat that they had finally gotten around to properly getting the license when people were asking about the DYRL toys. Which means they did not have the rights before hand.

People are thinking that maybe now after this legal mess that there might be some talks on behalf of Tatsunoko Pro since they are listed as working on DYRL, not sure how big of a part though. Or maybe they tracked down the rights for DYRL and that might include some toy rights, thus getting around BW. No one really knows and you can never get an answer out of HG. Maybe by AX they will explain it more.

Lot good it will do them. They canceled the second set of DYRL poseables and canceled the Kazaki poseable as well. So only the Roy, Hikaru, and Max versions will be released.

[muswp1]

Is it only the rights to the animation to DYRL that are totally messed up or is it all the international rights, including merchandise rights, that are messed up. I know there's been some legal hang up in regards to bringing out an official Region 1 release of DYRL.

[Ladic]

Robotech back on TV:

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/pressrelease.php?id=352

Robotech Licensed for Anime Network Broadcast

anounced on 2004-05-10 12:31

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

HOUSTON, May 10, 2004—The Anime Network™, fresh off their 24/7 linear launch announcement with Insight at the recently held NCTA in New Orleans, today announced that it has acquired the exclusive right to broadcast all 85 episodes of Harmony Gold’s classic Robotech, the smash-hit anime series that introduced generations of Americans to anime.

The Robotech series is credited by many as being responsible for raising the awareness of the Japanese anime phenomenon in America, beginning with the animated series that aired in early 1985. The series was re-aired in 1994 on SCI FI Channel and once again on The Cartoon Network in 1999. Robotech has become a major merchandising force, with movies, DVDs, comics, graphic novels, books and toys incorporating and elaborating on the story.

Recently it was announced that Robotech has undergone complete digital remastering, offering near-pristine video, restored and remixed 5.1 stereo audio, and new footage featuring scenes cut from the original broadcast version.

Often compared to Star Trek and Star Wars, Robotech is a multifaceted intergalactic drama that takes place across generations, spinning together hard-hitting mecha action and richly developed characters. The entire 85 episodes take place over the course of three acts: The Macross Saga; Robotech Masters; and New Generation. The riveting story begins when an alien spacecraft crashes onto Earth. Meanwhile, the nations of the world who have been involved in a bloody global war must band together to assess the alien threat.

“With the mounting popularity of Anime Network, it was a natural fit for us to license Robotech to air on this dynamic network that has immeasurable fan appeal,” said Alan Letz, executive vice president, business development of Harmony Gold.

“Robotech is classic and simply put, it was a must-have for our lineup on our newly announced linear channel,” said Kevin Corcoran, Anime Network president. “This show has such a strong appeal. It’s one of my all-time favorites.”

Robotech has seen tremendous popularity on home video, and the digitally remastered version is already available in stores around the country. All 85 episodes of Robotech will air later this year on Anime Network. Anime Network is currently available on Comcast, Time Warner, RCN, Cablevision, Rogers and beginning this summer on Insight. Anime Network is also available in high definition on iN DEMAND.

About The Anime Network

The Anime Network, a subsidiary of A.D. Vision, Inc. (parent company to ADV Films and Newtype USA), is the first cable channel in North America dedicated to anime with access to thousand of hours of exciting, eye-catching serialized programming. Anime Network launched in North America in late 2002 with extensive availability initially through digital cable video-on-demand technology and has become the #1 offering of video-on-demand. The network is broadening its initial roster of multi-system operator agreements to provide its programming nationwide, helping to bring the elusive 18-34 tech savvy male demographic back to television and drive demand for additional digital services offered by MSO’s. Additional information on Anime Network is available at www.theanimenetwork.com.

About Harmony Gold

"Working in Harmony to make Gold. Since its inception in 1983, Harmony Gold has been active in the production, acquisition and distribution of quality international film, television and video/DVD programming. ROBOTECH sits among it's productions of some of the industry’s classic and history-making television programs. The best-selling anime series, has become Harmony Gold's flagship franchise and has been sold in every major international market. Worldwide licensing and merchandising of ROBOTECH has produced a wide array of top sellers, including the recent 2002 of the Robotech DVD's,Video Games, Toys, Comic Books, Novels, Soundtrack CD's, Clothing and Trading Cards. Anime Network will launch the first broadcast of the newly Remastered version of ROBOTECH. Look for information on these as well as the upcoming Robotech features on www.robotech.com http://www.robotech.com and www.harmonygold.com "

[JB0]

Did reading that press release trigger anyone else's gag reflex?

[Legioss]

That's so stupid. I thought it was going to be back on Cartoon Network. If it's on Anime Network, then the new series will probably also be on Anime Network, and this Robotech revival won't go on for much longer after that because nobody's watching Anime Network. No need to pay for extra cable channels to get your nostalgia fix. I'm sure there will be torrents for the new Robotech.

[Radd]

I think we should keep comments about this (the Anime Network showing of Robotech) to the thread dedicated to it. It really has nothing to do with the licensing debate.

[Hoptimus]

Sooo.

Who has BIG WESTs comment on the HG DYRL scandal?!

[bandit29]

Sooo.

Who has BIG WESTs comment on the HG DYRL scandal?!

Maybe BW has nothing to say at all.

Maybe both companies have finally realized that the Macross fan base isn't big enough to have 2 companies fighting over it and that they'd make more money working together.

MACROSS: DO YOU REMEMBER LOVE  and all related characters and elements are TM & © Harmony Gold.

Copyright 2004, Toynami Inc.

hopefully there will be some sort of news at the upcoming cons

[CoryHolmes]

Sooo.

Who has BIG WESTs comment on the HG DYRL scandal?!

Maybe BW has nothing to say at all.

Maybe both companies have finally realized that the Macross fan base isn't big enough to have 2 companies fighting over it and that they'd make more money working together.

MACROSS: DO YOU REMEMBER LOVE  and all related characters and elements are TM & © Harmony Gold.

Copyright 2004, Toynami Inc.

hopefully there will be some sort of news at the upcoming cons

I'd be very happy to see that. As a fan of both shows, I just want to enjoy them both without all this hub-ub and pointless bickering between the two fanbases.

[ewilen]

Even if there's a settlement, the bickering won't stop unless and until the situation improves with respect to getting quality Macross stuff outside of Japan. If HG/Toynami facilitate the distribution of the good stuff, instead of trying to prevent it, people are going to be happy. OTOH, if all they do is pay BW for rights to DYRL and then churn out superposables and MPC versions of the DYRL designs, people are going to remain pissed off. (But some of the anger will also be directed at BW for abandoning the US Macross fans.)

[justvinnie]

Trademark does not equal copyright. We've known for some time that HG has trademarked the name Macross. It is surprising that they've also trademarked DYRL. I'm just going to wait and see what happens.

vinnie

[ewilen]

Yes, but the interesting thing here is that HG is claiming to own the copyright on all the characters and elements of DYRL, and apparently copyright on the film itself, as well as the trademark on the title.

Also I want to remind observers that using "trademark" as a verb is ambiguous. I just checked the US Patent and Trademark Office online database, and I didn't see a record of HG applying to register a trademark on "Macross: Do You Remember Love". I think it's more accurate to say that HG "claims trademark" on DYRL. To own a trademark, you don't have to register it--you just have to use it and be able to show that it uniquely identifies your products.

[justvinnie]

Yes, but the interesting thing here is that HG is claiming to own the copyright on all the characters and elements of DYRL, and apparently copyright on the film itself, as well as the trademark on the title.

Heh, I'd like to see them try and release an offical R1 version. The fact that they don't have the masters makes it a little hard, does it not?

Of course... if they really do believe they own the movie rights... they shouldn't have a problem forcing BW to hand them over right?

vinnie

[Effect]

I'd like to see them try as well. Seems they have forgotten that the design rights to the series designs are owned by Big West. I see the same thing happening with the movie as well. After all HG can only have what TP has.

[wrylac]

Even if there's a settlement, the bickering won't stop unless and until the situation improves with respect to getting quality Macross stuff outside of Japan. If HG/Toynami facilitate the distribution of the good stuff, instead of trying to prevent it, people are going to be happy. OTOH, if all they do is pay BW for rights to DYRL and then churn out superposables and MPC versions of the DYRL designs, people are going to remain pissed off. (But some of the anger will also be directed at BW for abandoning the US Macross fans.)

HG has always said that they would love to deal with Yamato and Bandai. The hold up on that hasn't been on their end.

[Effect]

So why is it forbidden to say their names when talking about valks on Robotech.com then? Not where to buy them but just to say their name. Toynami having all the toy rights doesn't seem to show that they want to work with other companies. Nor does it seem room for them to work with the other companies if given the chance. Just something I noticed.

[wrylac]

So why is it forbidden to say their names when talking about valks on Robotech.com then? Not where to buy them but just to say their name. Toynami having all the toy rights doesn't seem to show that they want to work with other companies. Nor does it seem room for them to work with the other companies if given the chance. Just something I noticed.

As of right now they are still competitors. That seems like reason enough. And I don't know that Toynami has all toy rights. Even if they did, there could be a way for Toynami could act as a distributor. Besides, the fact that they've said as much past.

[ewilen]

HG has always said that they would love to deal with Yamato and Bandai. The hold up on that hasn't been on their end.

I've never seen anything that proves that "the hold up hasn't been on their end". What we know is that the various sides weren't able to come to an agreement. It could be that BW wasn't willing to work with HG at all, but it could just as easily be the case that HG was making demands regarding payments and fees which BW saw as unreasonable.

We still don't know what agreement, if any, has been reached to allow Toynami to license the DYRL trademark and designs for use in their superposables. The structure of the agreement could take nearly any form in terms of direct payments between BW and HG, licensing fees from Toynami to one or both of them, and distribution and licensing arrangements with Yamato/Sunwards.

HG has shown in the past that it is willing to use copyright and trademark claims to leverage control over the US Macross market. It is certainly conceivable that even in the context of an agreement with BW, HG could use its claims to exclude Yamato and Bandai from the market unless they agree to impossible terms, then fall back on Toynami after claiming that "HG tried to reach a licensing agreement". This might make a sort of business sense for HG if Toynami can offer higher margins (though at the cost of lower quality). Or even if HG does deal with Yamato and Bandai, HG may be in a position to demand such high fees that domestically licensed Macross products end up costing as much as imports. In other words, there'd be no improvement from the perspective of fans.

If this happens, I think that fans would be (rightly) annoyed at BW for giving away the farm. On the other hand, if things work out in such a way that the same or better quality and variety of Macross products becomes available, at better prices, most fans will probably see this as a good thing. But that wouldn't mean that all the argument and litigation has been pointless, because the final deal may be quite different from what would have been reached if HG had its way back in 2000.

[Radd]

All this is just conjecture though, until we hear a reply from Big West. I'm inclined to believe that some sort of deal has been made, however it is also possible that HG tracked down whoever it was that had the american distribution rights and bought those rights off of them, then took that to mean they own the movie.

Before we get into all sorts of debates, with the he said/she said type of 'evidence' to back up our claims, I'd rather wait and see what Big West's response to all of this is.

[ewilen]

Of course... if they really do believe they own the movie rights... they shouldn't have a problem forcing BW to hand them over right?

Nope. Just because you own the copyright to something, that doesn't mean you can force someone else to give you access to their copy of it, even if that's the master copy.

But I seem to recall posting a few pages back that the masters of DYRL appear to have been assigned to Tatsunoko. That's based on a machine translation of a court case, though, so I may have been mistaken.

[scand]

I was just over at toynami's website and saw something interesting. Don't know if this has been brought up yet. Look at the bottom of the page about the TM and copyright info.

"MACROSS: DO YOU REMEMBER LOVE and all related characters and elements are TM & © Harmony Gold.

Copyright 2004, Toynami Inc. "

link

Edited May 29, 2004 by scand

[JB0]

I was just over at toynami's website and saw something interesting. Don't know if this has been brought up yet. Look at the bottom of the page about the TM and copyright info.

"MACROSS: DO YOU REMEMBER LOVE and all related characters and elements are TM & © Harmony Gold.

Copyright 2004, Toynami Inc. "

link

They're getting a lot of mileage out of those TV series distribution rights.

...

I wonder when they're going to force Big West and company to stop infringing on their copyright...

[Duke Togo]

I was just over at toynami's website and saw something interesting. Don't know if this has been brought up yet. Look at the bottom of the page about the TM and copyright info.

"MACROSS: DO YOU REMEMBER LOVE and all related characters and elements are TM & © Harmony Gold.

Copyright 2004, Toynami Inc. "

link

I think this clearly shows a lack of Big West involvement, as both Macross 2 and Macross Plus have Big West marking on the packing, along with Manga's.

[Pat Payne]

I was just over at toynami's website and saw something interesting. Don't know if this has been brought up yet. Look at the bottom of the page about the TM and copyright info.

"MACROSS: DO YOU REMEMBER LOVE and all related characters and elements are TM & © Harmony Gold.

Copyright 2004, Toynami Inc. "

link

I think this clearly shows a lack of Big West involvement, as both Macross 2 and Macross Plus have Big West marking on the packing, along with Manga's.

The interesting, and somewhat ominous thing is that there's also no mention of Tatsunoko in the copyright notice...