Macross isnt what it used to be..

[frothymug]

Despite Shin's age, I also felt that Zero had a more "adult" feel to it.

We know that Frontier was marketed towards a younger audience and I originally did not like this fact all that much. However, I found myself becoming attached to the more "adult" supporting cast as I worked my way through watching it. I don't really like the series's main trio, but I got around it by focusing on the things I do like a lot more.

See? It's not hard to have some criticism for something that's widely accepted by most of the fanbase, and still present it in a very diplomatic way. If anyone took extreme exception to what I just stated, can it!

[Bri]

We know that Frontier was marketed towards a younger audience and I originally did not like this fact all that much.

Frontier is a late night anime and just like the Macross OVA's aimed at the otaku/collectors market, which is made up of older teens and adults.

Edited April 10, 2012 by Bri

[Keith]

No, I just happen to like Macross Zero and Macross Plus especially Macross Plus. This was Kawamori's best work bar none.

Is it a crime to wish some adult oriented Macross ?

Plus his best? No, sorry, but no. Have you even seen Escaflowne? I mean come on.

[Agent ONE]

Plus his best? No, sorry, but no. Have you even seen Escaflowne? I mean come on.

You liked Escaflowne?

[s001]

Macross has changed in order to fit the mainstream. You know: more nudity, more violence, more gore, more 'coolness', etc.

It is what it is. It's following the path of everything else in the media. Some of us don't like it, some do like it and some pretend to like it.

For me it's kind of like a bittersweet experience, I like bits of it but that's it. At the end of the day no matter how much I love macross it's just one of my many hobbies.

[Einherjar]

No, I just happen to like Macross Zero and Macross Plus especially Macross Plus. This was Kawamori's best work bar none.

Is it a crime to wish some adult oriented Macross ?

That adult oriented Macross already exists, but the people running that interpretation have stopped taking it seriously. To some though, it pretty much has done all the bold points you've described.

[VF5SS]

Macross has changed in order to fit the mainstream. You know: more nudity, more violence, more gore, more 'coolness', etc.

did you watch DYRL?

[Gubaba]

what are ya, like 80?

Maybe.

[Jasonc]

Sometimes, reading some of the comments here make me miss the days of reading fringe Robotech fans' explanations in the Robotech licensing forum. Talking about train wrecks. Good times.

[peter]

did you watch DYRL?

Yeah, DYRL was like that, I don't get how his comment relates to the new stuff......is there more nudity, violence, gore and coolness?

There's a lot more weirdness, I'll say that. Just watched the second Frontier movie and it was very psychedelic. I think it would be awesome to watch if I was stoned. Yeah, it was way better than 7 (which was the biggest waste of my life I have ever experienced), but Frontier is just too weird for me. The only thing that came after DYRL that I truly lked was Mac Plus.

Maybe if I watch it a few more times, Mac F will grow on me.....I've give it another try sometime.

[Renato]

Frontier is a late night anime and just like the Macross OVA's aimed at the otaku/collectors market, which is made up of older teens and adults.

Perhaps, but I believe that Macross Zero was aimed mostly for the original Macross fan crowd, late thirties/early forties, with very little consideration for the teens. I doubt there was little overlap at first, and actually it was only later that younger audiences who got into the franchise through Frontier went back to check out Zero, since a lot of the plot points tie into each other (plus there is also the "Legend of Zero" episode, which is basically an advert for the OVA -- so good strategy there).

[Bri]

Perhaps, but I believe that Macross Zero was aimed mostly for the original Macross fan crowd, late thirties/early forties, with very little consideration for the teens. I doubt there was little overlap at first, and actually it was only later that younger audiences who got into the franchise through Frontier went back to check out Zero, since a lot of the plot points tie into each other (plus there is also the "Legend of Zero" episode, which is basically an advert for the OVA -- so good strategy there).

Yea, but that's just a different generation in the same market. SDFM and M7 were essentially children's shows, aired on normal times and which also appealed to older viewers. Frontier is specifically created for the late night demographic which is comparable to the people that made up the OVA market of the 80s and 90s.

I have to agree that Zero is a bit different: I think it's an early example of some very niche OVA of modern times, like Gundam Unicorn, VOTOM's Pailsen Files, etc. aimed at the original fans of long running franchises (and the SRW crowd). Those anime are far more restrained in the use of tropes and character types of what is popular now.

[Pterobat]

Honestly, Ranka only rates a measly 0.2 Moe units on the moeton meter.

Terrifying. D:

Maybe we could use some more perspective from cheerful girls who like Macross more than the stinky old men in this thread :3

Don't look at me....

This thread:

A lot of people outside of Macross fandom are complaining where anime in general is "going" these days, so it's not just the wicked n' nasty "Robotech people who don't watch anime" who are holding that opinion. The issue is the same, though: calling out "nostalgia blinders" on every criticism of new stuff is pretty knee-jerk. Under most circumstances, I'd rather have a good clean nerdy argument over what's changed and what hasn't.

Edited April 11, 2012 by Pterobat

[VF5SS]

Terrifying. D:

You have yet to plunge the depths of moe.

Honestly I think Mome from Orguss rates higher than Ranka.

When I was at Anime Boston, I showed off the "hidden" Itasha Ranka Lee cover for the VF-25 Master File to some people, including a Ranka cosplayer. She said she loved Frontier and Ranka but didn't care too much about the robots :3

Don't look at me....

:3

Under most circumstances, I'd rather have a good clean nerdy argument over what's changed and what hasn't.

Honestly I don't think we can leave out nostalgia entirely as in my experience, many old school fans are rather willfully ignorant of the kind of things that were commonplace even during the golden era of the 1980's.

I feel like some are overestimating the number of "magic bullets" for general audience appeal that can come out of Japan at any given time.

[Cobra__]

You have yet to plunge the depths of moe.

Honestly I think Mome from Orguss rates higher than Ranka.

Moe has been in anime since the begining of time. What has changed is how moe is shown. In the seventies moe were sexy girls like Cutie Honey, Beauty and Reika from Daitarn 3, Fraw Bow, Mirai and Sayla from Gundam. In the 80's you had to have the famous shower scene or beach or public baths scene. In every genre, from real robots, to super robots to comedies, to epic adventures etc... What has changed in the last 10 years is that what would have been adult characters or young adult in old animes have been shoved into prepubescent characters, with all the sexification that comes with it.

If late night animes are geared for young adults, male or female then why, why in god's name do we find characters continually being depicted as prepubescent girls. For boys its not so common. There is a dark side to being an otaku (otaku in the sense the japanese define it) not in the sense of being an anime fan we westerners understand it. And anime publishers are catering to that dark side. And don't tell me I'm imagining things.

When I was at Anime Boston, I showed off the "hidden" Itasha Ranka Lee cover for the VF-25 Master File to some people, including a Ranka cosplayer. She said she loved Frontier and Ranka but didn't care too much about the robots :3

:3

Fontier is no different from Code Geass. Designed by comittee to appeal to boys and girls alike. That's why you have top have bishounen characters in mecha shows today. To get the fangirls who wouldn't give a crap about robots but would fall over their feet for the "nice effeminate guy".

I guess the first real culprit here is Baldios, although that mecha show had a lot of redeeming qualities that made it a great show even if mostly obscure nowadays.

Honestly I don't think we can leave out nostalgia entirely as in my experience, many old school fans are rather willfully ignorant of the kind of things that were commonplace even during the golden era of the 1980's.

I feel like some are overestimating the number of "magic bullets" for general audience appeal that can come out of Japan at any given time.

Nostalgia has nothing to do with it. I appreciate modern animation techniques, and modern animes. What I can't stand is loli characters appearing everywhere just to appeal to the otaku's dark side. And the blame for this is entirely on the japanese. If they hadn't driven anime into a niche that survives only thanks to those otakus we wouldn't see such questionable shows today.

Edited April 11, 2012 by Cobra__

[Gubaba]

Stuff.

Dude, I don't even know what you're so hot and bothered about anymore. But I do know that your grasp of anime history needs some work.

[VF5SS]

I remember when committees shoehorning robots into every story regardless of their ultimate impact on the plot was considered a good thing :v

[Shaorin]

Macross isnt what it used to be...

Anime isn't what it used to be, actually...

Proving yet again that "some" robotech engraciated Macross fans just aren't "anime" fans. A problem much more rampant in the burning shards that once was the robotech fanbase, but we get them over on the Macross side too. I find his observations as inane as you do, "stop making it soo...anime-ey" indeed!

i myself was introduced to Anime through ROBOTECH, and suffered through Americanized ROBOTECH products and story.

that said, i learned about the -Truth- quite early on, embraced it, and desired pure, unmolested MACROSS pretty much from the start.

i just had to take what i could get at the time, (mid-90's) and most of what was available to me was either crappy 1/100 ARII VF-1 models,

and/or ROBOTECH oriented.

that didn't stop me from catching onto MACROSS II/MAC. PLUS, and Anime in general, however.

thanks to the local SUNCOAST VIDEO i used to have, (went defunct around the mid-2000s)

and i quickly learned that all the great Anime tropes we're all familiar with were new and exotic to me,

yet clicked with me 100% right off.

from then on, i drank in all the Anime-related material i could possibly get

(not much, considering my family's location and financial state at the time)

and by the early 2000's, with DVD and the Anime Boom it brought forth,

it was time for the bounty, and boy was i ever ready for it.

if there were any questions left about my Anime fandom, (which there really was none)

it was the 2000's boom that cinched things with me.

sadly, though, while there are still some good ideas to be found in today's Anime,

for the most part, i tend to feel that it's best days are behind it, and what is left is largely empty, tasteless and uninspired.

for instance, there are LOTS of very talented Moe artists out there, i see them all the time,

but, unfortunately, i also see, all the time, most of that talent being wasted on attempts to dress up an otherwise

no-talent, cardboard Video Game design, or on H-rated Dating Sims/Erotica that never sees the light outside of Japan. (and for good reason, doubtlessly)

it's all sad, IMO, anyway, but it does not change the fact that there are more than three solid decades worth of quality Anime/Manga material out there to enjoy,

even if only in hindsight, and, as a most dedicated, loving Anime fan, enjoy it i forever will...

Edited April 11, 2012 by Shaorin

[Cobra__]

Bring back the good old days when people like Kawajiri would make an OVA just because it was cool and he couldn't give a crap about target demographics. Today everything is so constrained, you can't make a step without doing market research, inserting item a because otaku fetishists will like it, insert item b because it will turn on the fujoshi crowd etc... To hell with this.

We need more space, more unbrindled creativity and the money to go with it. Of course you'll get a lot of crap anime but you will also get a lot of good anime or even masterpieces. That is what anime was about, the glory days of OVAs and creativity without bounds. I miss those days.

I remember when committees shoehorning robots into every story regardless of their ultimate impact on the plot was considered a good thing :v

Hey nobody said the japanese viewers had good taste.

Hell in the mid eighties Sunrise wanted to put Gundam aside and start a new franchise (Metal Armor Dragonar). #

What happened ? Japanese viewers cried like babies to have their oh so precious Gundam back.

And Sunrise said yes and then fostered upon the world almost 3 decades worth of useless remakes.

[VF5SS]

I find your uncited information to be highly dubious :v

[Cobra__]

I find your uncited information to be highly dubious :v

What uncited information ?

[VF5SS]

The part about Dragonar

which you just made up :v

To be frank, the whole "bring back the OVA market" thing is tiresome. There's been plenty of truly creative works made after the 80's. Just not a lot of generic sci-fi action pieces that play out like the terrible computer games of the time.

You aren't going to fix the industry by making more Kawajiri stuff that only appeals to the same creepy nerds looking for crazy demontechnology infused sexcapades.

[Keith]

Perhaps, but I believe that Macross Zero was aimed mostly for the original Macross fan crowd, late thirties/early forties, with very little consideration for the teens. I doubt there was little overlap at first, and actually it was only later that younger audiences who got into the franchise through Frontier went back to check out Zero, since a lot of the plot points tie into each other (plus there is also the "Legend of Zero" episode, which is basically an advert for the OVA -- so good strategy there).

Ooooh, that's why Zero had Sara running around naked, jokes about fertility sticks, the third member of the love triangle being a busty 11 year old, and popular gag of the day "double finger butt poke." Nice try, but no. Zero was just as indicative of trying to appeal to younger demographics as the other seies you complain about. Nice try though.

[Cobra__]

The part about Dragonar

which you just made up :v

No, this is the truth.

Start from this wikipedia article : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_Armor_Dragonar and for further information read "Great Mechanics, issue 7, 「ガンダムをリニューアルする」"

To be frank, the whole "bring back the OVA market" thing is tiresome. There's been plenty of truly creative works made after the 80's. Just not a lot of generic sci-fi action pieces that play out like the terrible computer games of the time.

You aren't going to fix the industry by making more Kawajiri stuff that only appeals to the same creepy nerds looking for crazy demontechnology infused sexcapades.

Please, OVAs of that era were yes focused on science fiction for the most part but you still could find other genres.

Area 88 is not science fiction, and has some of the best hand drawn animation ever as well as a great story. In some places it rivals that of Macross DYRL and DYRL was a film.

As for Kawajiri, I'm not a fan of his fix with rapes but he has talent for actions scenes. And he also knows how to draw realistic characters.

[Shaorin]

To be frank, the whole "bring back the OVA market" thing is tiresome. There's been plenty of truly creative works made after the 80's. Just not a lot of generic sci-fi action pieces that play out like the terrible computer games of the time.

You aren't going to fix the industry by making more Kawajiri stuff that only appeals to the same creepy nerds looking for crazy demontechnology infused sexcapades.

true, that, to a certain degree, at least.

after all, not ALL of those games were all THAT terrible...

Edited April 11, 2012 by Shaorin

[Einherjar]

No, this is the truth.

Start from this wikipedia article : http://en.wikipedia...._Armor_Dragonar and for further information read "Great Mechanics, issue 7, 「ガンダムをリニューアルする」"

I see the problem - it sounds a lot like Gundam without being called Gundam.

Also, your lack of restraint, and boarderline prejudice, doesn't really help whatever you're trying to do.

[VF5SS]

You're gonna have to translate the rest of that if you want us to understand the whole picture regarding Dragonar.

Please, OVAs of that era were yes focused on science fiction for the most part but you still could find other genres.

And you can still find other genres today as well.

The 80's would have never given us a shoen fighting anime about baking bread now would it?

Area 88 is not science fiction, and has some of the best hand drawn animation ever as well as a great story. In some places it rivals that of Macross DYRL and DYRL was a film.

Yeah so? It's a drama about airplanes starring a beautiful man who is forced to buy weapons from a Jewish stereotype in made-up middle Eastern country-stan. That's pretty fictional and has airplanes which count as mecha. It's porn for airplane nerds :3

As for Kawajiri, I'm not a fan of his fix with rapes but he has talent for actions scenes. And he also knows how to draw realistic characters.

I think we're past the term "realistic" when the guy created a woman with handlebars attached to her neck who is ridden by a midget :v

Edited April 11, 2012 by VF5SS

[Beltane70]

I think we're past the term "realistic" when the guy created a woman with handlebars attached to her neck who is ridden by a midget :v

Actually, we have Buichi Terasawa to thank for that. He's the actual creator of Midnight Eye Goku. Kawajiri just directed the OVAs derived from Terasawa's original manga.

[VF5SS]

Even betterer

Well Kawajiri is still responsible for bringing the sexual deviancy of Wicked City to the OVA market since it was originally a novel.

[Bri]

Moe has been in anime since the begining of time. What has changed is how moe is shown. In the seventies moe were sexy girls like Cutie Honey, Beauty and Reika from Daitarn 3, Fraw Bow, Mirai and Sayla from Gundam. In the 80's you had to have the famous shower scene or beach or public baths scene. In every genre, from real robots, to super robots to comedies, to epic adventures etc... What has changed in the last 10 years is that what would have been adult characters or young adult in old animes have been shoved into prepubescent characters, with all the sexification that comes with it.

You're mixing up moe and cute. Cute is a description of character traits and has always been part of anime. Moe is a fairly recent description of a feeling of passion a character/object triggers with the observer. Most people on this forum are totally moe for the Macross valkyries and that doesn't mean they want to sleep with them...'cept a few diehard nuts and bolts guys

If late night animes are geared for young adults, male or female then why, why in god's name do we find characters continually being depicted as prepubescent girls.

Nostalgia on the part of the viewer. High school and high school aged characters represent a time between childhood and adolescence when life was still simple and easy. Idealized memories of a time of innocence that never was. Much like the way 80s and 90s anime is perceived in this thread...

[Keith]

Let's see, the hentai doujinshi market is about as old as fandom itself, so no, Moe is most definately "not" a new phenomenon, just a new term.

[Bri]

Let's see, the hentai doujinshi market is about as old as fandom itself, so no, Moe is most definately "not" a new phenomenon, just a new term.

While both the points you mention are true, I don't see the connection between the two?

Edited April 12, 2012 by Bri

[Jasonc]

Why do so many people cite Wikipedia as 100% fact, when it's written by unauthorized people? Just because you quote Wikipedia doesn't mean that your argument is 100% all true. You might as well say that you're right because your neighbor said it was right. Wikipedia has been proven wrong many a time.

[VF5SS]

Most people on this forum are totally moe for the Macross valkyries and that doesn't mean they want to sleep with them...'cept a few diehard nuts and bolts guys

I think the Valkyrie Musume comics from the Frontier manga might be able to change that :3

[Tochiro]

RANT ON!

Ok, this is a thread that I’ve refrained from commenting in because I honestly find its premise to be a little redundant. Has Macross changed over the past THIRTY YEARS? Of course it has. So has music, film, and pretty much any type of media or entertainment that one might enjoy. I wouldn’t expect kids today to enjoy the exact same thing that I enjoyed when I was a kid – heck if the creative momentum of any IP showed such creative stagnation that it kept making the same sort of show for three decades then I’d be content with my nostalgic memories and wouldn’t be as interested in following newer installments and developments.

One issue that annoys me to no end however is the claim that all modern anime is otaku pandering moe bait. Similarly, I’ve heard friends in the US complain that all modern anime is nothing but loli pandering and that Japan hasn’t made a good series since Cowboy Bebop.

Really? I mean, REALLY?!?!?!

Below is a list of anime that’s come out since the dawn of the current century – in other words in little over a decade. I’ve chosen this time frame because I moved to Japan in 2000 and watched most of these as they were released. While personally I prefer SF, I am open to most anime that isn’t too moerrific and has a story or some other element that grabs me. (please keep in mind that I don’t claim that all of the following are ‘great’ shows per se, just that they don’t fall into the stereotypes and tropes that some members on the board assign to all anime as of late).

Take a look at this list and tell me with a straight face that we got anywhere near the volume or range of anime in any 12 year period in the rose coloured past.

As oldskool Macross fans, I’ll presume that most of us have watched the more hardcore mecha series like the two Gundam IGLOO OVA’s, Macross Zero, Gundam Unicorn.

Certainly there were some new iterations to robot anime with a younger angle to them but still had plenty of good mecha action in them if you were willing to give them a chance – Gundam Seed, Gundam Seed Destiny, Gundam 00, Gundam Stargazer.

Updates to classic franchises? Fist of the North Star got 3 movies, 2 OVAs and a tv series about Raoh. City Hunter got a direct sequel (Angel Heart) as did Captain Harlock (Endless Odessey) and Cobra (2 OVA’s and one TV series). Not to mention the Golgo 13 tv series or the terrific Cyborg 009-1 spin-off series. Votoms also got at least 2 OVA’s and Yamato actually got a fully-fledged sequel with Yamato Ressurection. Evangelion also got the first 2 rebuild movies. Oh and Towards the Terra received an excellent update in the form of a new TV series that outdoes (imo) the old theatrical version.

Giant robots your thing? How about Rahxephon (arguably Izubuchi’s greatest work), Aquarion, Eureka 7 or Reideen?

Keen on Science Fiction? Ghost in the Shell Innocence (movie), 2 tv series and one movie for Ghost in the Shell Stand Alone Complex, 2 movies and one tv series for Appleseed, Trigun Badlands Rumble, Rideback, The Galaxy Railways (2 tv series & OVA), Space Symphony Maetel, Project Blue Earth SOS, Vexille, Tytania, Eden of the East (tv and movies), Mardock Scramble, Tiger and Bunny and the outstanding Redline.

Want more Kawajiri? Highlander: The Search for Vengeance may not be a terrific Highlander film, but it is VERY Kawajiri. Then you have US/JPN co-productions which sometimes have animation with a budget most Japanese studios can only dream of, if not necessarily the best writing. One things for sure though – they aren’t aimed at either kids or the typical moe crowd – Halo Legends, Afro Samurai, Batman Gotham Knight, Ninja Scroll TV, several Marvel collaborations.

Watch Nadia as a kid and want more Action Adventure? Again anime has you covered with Black Lagoon, Full Metal Alchemist, Darker than Black, Witch Hunter Robin, Blood+, Michiko & Hatchin.

How about Fantasy? Claymore, Production IG’s excellent Moribito, Samurai Champloo, Samurai 7 or the new Rurouni kenshin OVA?

Comedy – several series of Sayonara Zetsubo Sensei (some of the best social criticism of Japanese society ever animated) or, if you like your Transformer and zombie parodies a little coarser, Panty & Stocking.

As far as original productions are concerned, there was the tear-jerking Colorful, Sword of the Stranger, RIN, Summer Wars, and the larger part of the late Satoshi Kon’s filmography with Tokyo Godfathers, Millenium Actress, Paprika and Paranoia Agent.

This year alone see’s us get shows such as Yamato 2199, Lupin the 3^rd: A Woman called Fujiko Mine, Kids on the Slope (Watanabe + Kanno + Jazz!), Space Brothers, 3 Berserk movies, Leiji Matsumoto’s Ozuma, the final Mardock Scramble movie, a Tiger & Bunny movie, Kenji Kamiyama’s RE: Cyborg 009, Letter to Momo, Yuki to Ame (Hosoda + Sadamoto again!), the 3^rd Evangelion rebuild movie, the last two installments of Gundam Unicorn (the final one of which is rumoured to be a theatrical length feature) and a new adaptation of one of Kenji Miyazawa’s works The Life of Guskou Budori.

And looking ahead to 2013 there’s already (supposedly) Gundam The origin, the (still in production) Captain Harlock CG movie and Leiji Matsumoto’s Space Dreadnaught Mahoroba to look forward to as well as (hopefully) the post-humously completed Dream Machine from Satoshi Kon.

Please keep in mind that the above are only what I could come up with off the top of my head while making my morning coffee at work today so I may have missed a few titles. ;-)

One thing nearly all of the above have in common however is that they are not aimed squarely at children and are not primarily moe bait and otaku fanservice. A few titles may have one of these elements (Aquarion, I’m looking at you) but not to the extent that it defines the show.

Seriously, whether you like classic anime series, SF, action adventure or just anime in general the above list shows that you HAVE been catered to fairly well over the past decade by this medium that we all (at one point at least) claim(ed) to enjoy.

If there’s nothing in this list that appeals to you then I think it’s only reasonable to say that it’s not anime that has changed, it’s you.

Edited April 12, 2012 by Tochiro