LOST

[the white drew carey]

I don't think there is a "good" guy. Jacob is a pretty amoral bastard as well, they both manipulate and kill people to suit their needs, so who's to say MIB is the bad guy cuz he kills people himself while Jacob uses phenomena to do it?

Oh, yeah... I never thought he is a 'good' guy. Just that he's not the be-all-end-all evil that the show is hinting at (black stone, white stone).

My guess is that the story isn't so black and white as they are making it out to be.

[eugimon]

Oh, yeah... I never thought he is a 'good' guy. Just that he's not the be-all-end-all evil that the show is hinting at (black stone, white stone).

My guess is that the story isn't so black and white as they are making it out to be.

Oh, sorry, I didn't mean to imply you were implying he was a "good guy", just that I don't think there are "good" or "bad" guys when it comes to the non human entities behind the curtain.

[EXO]

MIB is definitely the bad guy... he's an evil that can't be let loose in the real world (even though there's obviously a number of characters that shouldnt be allowed in the real world anyway.) But the rest of it deals with what is right and how far will you go to achieve what is right?

Desmond ran over Locke in a wheel chair for crissakes.

I don't think they are trying to seem like it's all black and white.

[eugimon]

MIB is definitely the bad guy... he's an evil that can't be let loose in the real world (even though there's obviously a number of characters that shouldnt be allowed in the real world anyway.) But the rest of it deals with what is right and how far will you go to achieve what is right?

Desmond ran over Locke in a wheel chair for crissakes.

I don't think they are trying to seem like it's all black and white.

Why, because Jacob says he's evil? Jacob has killed FAR more people than MIB.

[Hurin]

Why, because Jacob says he's evil? Jacob has killed FAR more people than MIB.

If you know there's an afterlife. . . and seem to have some connection with it, is killing people really all that bad of a thing anymore? To Jacob, I mean? And, assuming the MIB has the same knowledge, this might also mitigate how we perceive his actions as well.

[eugimon]

If you know there's an afterlife. . . and seem to have some connection with it, is killing people really all that bad of a thing anymore? To Jacob, I mean? And, assuming the MIB has the same knowledge, this might also mitigate how we perceive his actions as well.

I suppose that depends on the specific beliefs about the afterlife. But even so, then what makes MIB "evil"?

[EXO]

Why, because Jacob says he's evil? Jacob has killed FAR more people than MIB.

are you seriously looking for that big twist at the end? Are you going to be one of those angry disappointed viewers if you don't get it? I understand that LOST is supposed to be one of those twisty turnie type stories, but all successful stories have to have a solid base to build from. So do you actually believe that it's a lie that the whole thing is NOT about keeping the MIB on the island?

And who did Jacob kill again? No, that's a serious question... I can't recall a person that Jacob actually killed of sent out someone to have killed.

I suppose that depends on the specific beliefs about the afterlife. But even so, then what makes MIB "evil"?

If there's no specific event that defines MIB as evil aside from his nature and the fact that he outright kills people. I'm saying he's evil because as a plot device HE is the evil that can't be let off the island, the central point of the mythology (i guess as I see it, I don't know what other people think it is.)

[azrael]

And who did Jacob kill again? No, that's a serious question... I can't recall a person that Jacob actually killed of sent out someone to have killed.

Jacob is responsible for getting people killed by bringing them to the island, but Jacob hasn't actually killed anybody. MIB is the one who's actually killed people. So saying Jacob has killed people sounds a bit far fetched.

[eugimon]

are you seriously looking for that big twist at the end? Are you going to be one of those angry disappointed viewers if you don't get it? I understand that LOST is supposed to be one of those twisty turnie type stories, but all successful stories have to have a solid base to build from. So do you actually believe that it's a lie that the whole thing is NOT about keeping the MIB on the island?

And who did Jacob kill again? No, that's a serious question... I can't recall a person that Jacob actually killed of sent out someone to have killed.

If there's no specific event that defines MIB as evil aside from his nature and the fact that he outright kills people. I'm saying he's evil because as a plot device HE is the evil that can't be let off the island, the central point of the mythology (i guess as I see it, I don't know what other people think it is.)

Why so angry? No, I won't be all angry, nor do I sit around trying to figure the show out. I just don't think it's as clear cut that MIB is bad and that Jacob is good. Jacob causes boats, planes and all other manner of events that cause people to die so that he can have his candidates come to the island. Just because Jacob doesn't directly kill those people doesn't mean he's not responsible for their deaths.

Jacob is responsible for getting people killed by bringing them to the island, but Jacob hasn't actually killed anybody. MIB is the one who's actually killed people. So saying Jacob has killed people sounds a bit far fetched.

If you cause the circumstances that leads to someone's death, you're still held responsible for their death. That plane, those boats, didn't go off course on their own accord.

Edited April 22, 2010 by eugimon

[Hurin]

If you cause the circumstances that leads to someone's death, you're still held responsible for their death. That plane, those boats, didn't go off course on their own accord.

That only goes so far.

If I hijack a ship and take it to Lebanon. And then I release the passengers. . . and one of them gets hit by a drunk driver while walking the streets in Lebanon, can I really be held responsible for what the drunk driver did to that person?

You might think so. . . since I was responsible for placing that person in Lebanon where he was killed. But the law generally doesn't see it that way. It would be the drunk driver's fault. For being a drunk driving a-hole.

[eugimon]

That only goes so far.

If I hijack a ship and take it to Lebanon. And then I release the passengers. . . and one of them gets hit by a drunk driver while walking the streets in Lebanon, can I really be held responsible for what the drunk driver did to that person?

You might think so. . . since I was responsible for placing that person in Lebanon where he was killed. But the law generally doesn't see it that way. It would be the drunk driver's fault. For being a drunk driving a-hole.

No, but if you cause an airplane full of people to fly over an area known to be hazardous and they all die horribly as a result, you are responsible.

What the survivors did to themselves is on them, but what happened to all the other passengers, that's on jacob.

[Hurin]

What the survivors did to themselves is on them, but what happened to all the other passengers, that's on jacob.

Meh, by now the writers have made it abundantly clear that we're not supposed to give two craps about the other passengers. Or the others themselves actually. Considering

the last of them just got wiped out

by a Widmore fire mission.

P.S. I'm kidding. You make a good point that Jacob seems to consider people pretty expendable.

[EXO]

Why so angry? No, I won't be all angry, nor do I sit around trying to figure the show out. I just don't think it's as clear cut that MIB is bad and that Jacob is good. Jacob causes boats, planes and all other manner of events that cause people to die so that he can have his candidates come to the island. Just because Jacob doesn't directly kill those people doesn't mean he's not responsible for their deaths.

I'm not angry.... sorry to come across that way, but you seem to be annoyed whenever someone straight out says that MIB = evil. Even if I was wrong at the end it's not a far fetched supposition because the show has has gone out of its way to represent him as that. And to say that OMG you're so trusting with the writing... so what? It's exactly what they bring to the show... guessing is fun but at the end you only get what they give you.

If you cause the circumstances that leads to someone's death, you're still held responsible for their death. That plane, those boats, didn't go off course on their own accord.

First off, I never said Jacob was good, but he is a man with a mission. Plus he can't be that much of a good guy if he can't take the responsibility given him and spent the last few hundred years trying to abandon it by dumping it on someone else. But I do think that the goal given him is to keep evil from escaping to the outside world, and that puts him and the future guardian on the 'good' side of the line.

[eugimon]

I'm not angry.... sorry to come across that way, but you seem to be annoyed whenever someone straight out says that MIB = evil. Even if I was wrong at the end it's not a far fetched supposition because the show has has gone out of its way to represent him as that. And to say that OMG you're so trusting with the writing... so what? It's exactly what they bring to the show... guessing is fun but at the end you only get what they give you.

I'm not annoyed, I'm just stating what I think based on what the show has shown us so far. Jacob kills indirectly and his followers kill, kidnap, and brainwash people so I'm not terribly inclined to believe what he says either.

First off, I never said Jacob was good, but he is a man with a mission. Plus he can't be that much of a good guy if he can't take the responsibility given him and spent the last few hundred years trying to abandon it by dumping it on someone else. But I do think that the goal given him is to keep evil from escaping to the outside world, and that puts him and the future guardian on the 'good' side of the line.

okay, I'm just saying the guy who has killed more people than the evil guy might not really be on the good side.

[Hurin]

Plus he can't be that much of a good guy if he can't take the responsibility given him and spent the last few hundred years trying to abandon it by dumping it on someone else.

I don't think he's looking to ditch his responsibility and foist it on someone else. Rather, I think Jacob realized that the MIB would eventually succeed in finding his "loophole" and achieving his explicitly stated goal of killing him (Jacob). So, he began searching for his successor in preparation for when (if?) that eventually indeed happened.

Or, of course, this is all an elaborate demonstration being orchestrated by Jacob for the benefit of the MIB as a means of finally settling their argument over the nature of humanity. In that case, Jacob being killed is actually all part of Jacob's plan. I've personally always gotten that sense.

Edited April 23, 2010 by Hurin

[azrael]

Perhaps Jacob finding a successor is his way of proving his point; that people are inherently good. But the problem is that people have to make that choice. Jacob can't do it or he would lose the argument.

In any case, the upcoming episode "Across the Sea" (airdate: May 11, 2010) will probably explain this whole argument between Jacob and MIB. And the episode after that, which is right before the series finale, well, I think the title explains it: "What They Died For".

[EXO]

I'm not annoyed, I'm just stating what I think based on what the show has shown us so far. Jacob kills indirectly and his followers kill, kidnap, and brainwash people so I'm not terribly inclined to believe what he says either.

okay, I'm just saying the guy who has killed more people than the evil guy might not really be on the good side.

I don't know if you missed the part about Jacob saying that he brings people to the Island to prove to that people are inherently good. And people fail, because if the first guy he brings on the Island succeeds... well there wouldn't be a show.

[eugimon]

I don't know if you missed the part about Jacob saying that he brings people to the Island to prove to that people are inherently good. And people fail, because if the first guy he brings on the Island succeeds... well there wouldn't be a show.

No, I got that part, I'm just saying killing hundreds of people so he can prove to MIB that people are good is rather morally ambiguous

[EXO]

Ah crap... the two people before me made that point... should read first then reply.

But that's a good angle on Jacob dying... didn't really think of it that way.

[azrael]

As Jacob said, "It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress."

[the white drew carey]

I think that Jacob is just much more nefarious. His calm demeanor belies the fact that he has no problem using people as tools for whatever little game he is playing with MIB.

[Hurin]

Though, caveats about Jacob's nature aside, I have to say: People taking what the (apparent) villain says as gospel does indeed remind me of all the people who started calling the Jedi evil because the Emperor said so many bad things about them.

When the villain of a piece of fiction is explicitly spelled out to be dishonest and manipulative, and yet you still accept what he says, visit various internet discussion forums, and make contrarian arguments based on that character's assertions. . . well, that's sort odd.

[Ghost Train]

Since Jacob is pseudo-dead, maybe he is the new smoke monster - not-Locke is the new Jacob...

[jenius]

What's with the boys that keep popping up and haunting MIB?

[azrael]

What's with the boys that keep popping up and haunting MIB?

That's probably what he's afraid of.

[Snail00]

why is STIJLDB (Smokey Thing Inhabiting John Lockes Dead Body) depicted as a dragon in the ancient mayan ruins. What are mayan ruins doing on the island. Why are the cannon fodder zombies, if dead is dead then do people get reincarnated ie Jacob as the boy, how come Jacob has a name and STIJLDB doesnt, if STIJLDB wants to get off the island and kill everyone...why what would you do then when everyone is gone...wierd motive, Jacob mentions rules??? what rules, if your some scary monster that rips peoples limbs off and then turns them into zombies then why do you need rules????what happens to the skin job when STIJLDB becomes himself, how many lives did jacob/STIJLDB claim over the 100's of years. IS Desmond a time traveling Mutant xmen and is Saiyd a Deadpool clone. I swear the writers did drink the kool aid and it must have been STIJLDB's. I have completely tuned out of this show. I used to get excited but its now more of meh and I want to see what the writers come up with for a show ending. Its time to give things away in terms what really everything is and stop streching this thing out like a hour long episode of Y&R

Thank god for Sparticus, STU and the Pacific.

[Hurin]

I got the impression that the "boys" that keep appearing to Locke/MIB are the same boy, at different ages. And for some reason, I figured they were Jacob somehow. There seems to be some resemblance.

[eugimon]

smokey isn't in Locke's dead body, we've seen dead body, Smokey just looks like locke

[jenius]

I got the impression that the "boys" that keep appearing to Locke/MIB are the same boy, at different ages. And for some reason, I figured they were Jacob somehow. There seems to be some resemblance.

Didn't one of the boys remind Locke that he couldn't hurt Richard? I seem to recall that happening which I believe would support the theory that the boys do represent Jacob... but that leads to wondering why Jacob wouldn't just appear as himself (as we saw him) like he does to Hurley. Desmond also saw one of the boys though (again IIRC) and Desmond has no history of seeing dead people. It's a strange little mystery and I'm curious to see how they'll develop it.

[Snail00]

so everyone is practically dead, seems black smoke is the smartest thing on the island. Why dont people just give up!

I feel so bad for Sun and Jin. One should have left for the child to have a parent.

So we kate the eight :lol:

Kate

Hurley

Sawyer

Jack

Miles

Witmore

Claire

and Richard

So the Pool begins on whose going to kick the bucket next

My Picks are;

Claire

Miles

Richard

Whitemore

Edited May 5, 2010 by Snail00

[Zor Primus]

Anyone else find it ironic that Sayid went out eerily like a suicide bomber? After so much strife THAT is how he goes?

Seems like we are seeing the quick resolutions most feared would happen with so little time to end the series. I was surprised, shocked and then disappointed at the losses last night. Borderline cheesy...but hey who am I right?

Speaking of Miles were was he? Still at Whitmore's?

Snail you forgot that Ben is still alive and well

Edited May 5, 2010 by Zor Primus

[-Snowblind-]

(...)

So we kate the eight :lol:

Kate

Hurley

Sawyer

Jack

Miles

Witmore

Claire

and Richard

(...)

Hate to ruin your tally, but Desmond is still out there, too.

[spacemanoeuvres]

Hate to ruin your tally, but Desmond is still out there, too.

and it's Widmore...

sorry but spelling counts...especially on the intar'web'nets (see sig for maximum hypocrisy-effect)

Edited May 5, 2010 by spacemanoeuvres

[Snail00]

Hate to ruin your tally, but Desmond is still out there, too.

IIRC Desmond could be dead since Sayid was supposed to shoot him.

Or if he didnt he is still stuck in a well and unless he can grow wings he is going no where

so does it matter???? I dont know

[Ghost Train]

Anyone else find it ironic that Sayid went out eerily like a suicide bomber? After so much strife THAT is how he goes?

Seems like we are seeing the quick resolutions most feared would happen with so little time to end the series. I was surprised, shocked and then disappointed at the losses last night. Borderline cheesy...but hey who am I right?

Speaking of Miles were was he? Still at Whitmore's?

Snail you forgot that Ben is still alive and well

Miles chose to join Team Ricardo when they split with team Jack (I believe Ben is with them as well). And I don't feel that Sayid went out in the fashion you described. He probably felt that this was a way to atone for all the bad deeds he had accumulated throughout his "career," as there was still some good left in him.