HG and Robotech Debates

[Whamhammer]

Bridges have been burned years ago so either company wont have a relationship.

We may blame Tatsunoko for part of the responsibility but in the end HG is Douche Inc..

Well then, I guess you dont get what you want. Ive learned that when its in enough of an entitys best interests that they will mend a fence or a bridge. Maybe Big West doesnt consider the American anime market worth it enough to pony up some fence mending to bring you Macross here?

[EXO]

Thats your opinion.

actually it's not just his opinion... we have an aircraft thread so move that talk over there cuz your off topic.

[EXO]

Well then, I guess you dont get what you want. Ive learned that when its in enough of an entitys best interests that they will mend a fence or a bridge. Maybe Big West doesnt consider the American anime market worth it enough to pony up some fence mending to bring you Macross here?

Actually we do get what we want as evidenced in the toy thread. Or are all those toys just hallucinations?

[VF5SS]

No that's standard practice. Something like Gundam 08th MS Team had new designs to go along with the new characters. It gets new merchandise out there that's distinct from the existing product while settling new fans into an existing story filled with callbacks.

[Seto Kaiba]

Well then, I guess you dont get what you want. Ive learned that when its in enough of an entitys best interests that they will mend a fence or a bridge. Maybe Big West doesnt consider the American anime market worth it enough to pony up some fence mending to bring you Macross here?

Okay, enough of the Harmony Gold apologist attitude... it's really becoming obnoxious. I don't know what it is with Robotech fans, but whenever they see anything that resembles legitimate criticism, they get their panties in a bunch and start trying to make it look like everybody BUT them is being an irrational twit.

Is it really any surprise that Big West doesn't want to work with Harmony Gold, given Harmony Gold's track record of trying to screw its business partners over and blaming them for everything that goes wrong (Netter Digital, GameTek, the various comic licensees), and their generally belligerent and borderline illegal behavior towards importers of Macross goods in the past? Harmony Gold made asses of themselves, and now they're dealing with the results of their actions... it's as simple as that.

Edited September 15, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[Gubaba]

<begin sarcasm> I totally agree . Due to the fact many Macross fans get a burr up thier butt at the mention of Robotech, H.G. should just shut thier doors and not make anything. The world will be at peace again.<end sarcasm>

Theres a saying about auto mechanincs, if they arent complaining, they arent happy.Trust me on this, auto mechanics love to complain, and theyll find something to complain about if the previous complaint is resolved. I think the scenario is the same here. After you kill Robotech, you'll have to find another series that conflicts with Macross. Will it be that Mospeada is a total rip-off of Macross? Or that Project A-Ko insulted Macross's integrity in some scenes? Or some new series I havent even seen yet has some big battle-carrier thing and confronts aliens "and that just aint right man!!!" ???

No one puts a gun to your head and says "buy Shadow Chronicles and Shadow Rising" in a thick Russian accent. You can get a group together that wants Robotech dead, raise some money along side of Big West so they can give H.G. an offer they cant refuse. Or make an appeal with Big West and H.G. to work together to bring Macross here for you. H.G. does want to make money, an effort to bring Macross to the U.S. can be equally beneficial for the two groups.

You've been putting an awful lot of words in my mouth, and I don't appreciate it.

Can you stick to the arguments I'm making instead of the arguments you think I might make?

Look, we can throw piles of words at each other, but it all comes down to two main points: 1) I don't think there's any point in continuing a twenty-five-year-old slapdash, bowdlerized, whitewashed, Frankenstein monster of an anime (which is a footnote in history thanks to being the missing link between completely hacked-up kids shows like Battle of the Planets and the unfiltered, uncensored, unwesternized anime that came out in the '90s). 2) You apparently do.

I don't think I'm being unreasonable in my dislike of Robotech. I've told the story of my history with Macross and Robotech multiple times here and elsewhere, so I don't want to rehash it again.

But to say that my dislike of Robotech has nothing to do with Robotech itself, and everything to do with having something to complain about is untrue, insulting, and shows that you have no idea about where I'm coming from.

[EXO]

"beneficial to two groups" lol.

There's some people that just skip over posts because they can't wait to post whats on their minds. Until they get banned from RT.com and then it's "F those MotherF'ers!"

[HappyPenguins]

Thats your opinion.

while it is his opinion, he does make a good point...

The general audience don't care for any outdated designs

I mean, look at all the remakes that are taking classic themes

and modernizing them *gag* While you and I prefer the classics

there's always going to be some people who would rather see everything

modernized

[Lolicon]

I was pissed that the VF-1 was replaced by the VF-25 in Frontier.

[Gubaba]

I was pissed that the VF-1 was replaced by the VF-25 in Frontier.

Did the VF-4, VF-2SS, YF-19, YF-21, VF-19, VF-17, and VF-0 piss you off, too?

[Funkenstein]

Did the VF-4, VF-2SS, YF-19, YF-21, VF-19, VF-17, and VF-0 piss you off, too?

Of course not. None of those are canon anyway

[Jasonc]

But this is what people in this thread are saying they WOULD LIKE to see happen...a Robotech unburdened by the past. My feeling is then it would cease to be Robotech, and the reason to put the name on it is for sales value. But the sales value in the name is negligible...so why bother?

Maybe I really AM having trouble communicating tonight...

I think you nailed it on why they'll keep the name Robotech, even if all was changed and there were absolutely no links to any of the 3 series it was based on. HG doesn't have the staff, or the creativity to create something 100% original, for one. If they were to create something new, they'd have to do a lot of work to gain clout just to get that new series some respect. I'm sure HG has the idea that the name is a cash cow, and the interest in a LAM seems to be enough proof of that theory. The problem that HG has is that if they completely severe the ties to Macross, they'd be committing a franchise suicide. It's why their Macross toys continue to sell the best out of all the products. It may be something they say they'd like to do, but I'm sure they like the fact that they can exploit Macross as much as possible. No Rick Hunter, no story.

[Gubaba]

Well, I just watched Part 2 of the 2004 Anime Expo Robotech panel that Memo posted on youtube, and I realized...I'm in it! Mostly you can just see the back of my head, but at 8:13 or thereabouts, I turn around and look for the guy asking the question.

So...should I send Memo a cease and desist order?

[Whamhammer]

Actually we do get what we want as evidenced in the toy thread. Or are all those toys just hallucinations?

Im talking about the actuall anime.

[Einherjar]

After you kill Robotech, you'll have to find another series that conflicts with Macross. Will it be that Mospeada is a total rip-off of Macross? Or that Project A-Ko insulted Macross's integrity in some scenes? Or some new series I havent even seen yet has some big battle-carrier thing and confronts aliens "and that just aint right man!!!" ???

But those shows didn't literally cut and paste other shows together to make theirs.

Robotech has been dead for a long time now, HG and WB are just wasting money trying to bring new life into it. And the results have been embarrassing.

[Gubaba]

Im talking about the actuall anime.

We get that too. Some of us even get it legally.

[Whamhammer]

Okay, enough of the Harmony Gold apologist attitude... it's really becoming obnoxious. I don't know what it is with Robotech fans, but whenever they see anything that resembles legitimate criticism, they get their panties in a bunch and start trying to make it look like everybody BUT them is being an irrational twit.

The same can be said about all fan groups.

Is it really any surprise that Big West doesn't want to work with Harmony Gold, given Harmony Gold's track record of trying to screw its business partners over and blaming them for everything that goes wrong (Netter Digital, GameTek, the various comic licensees), and their generally belligerent and borderline illegal behavior towards importers of Macross goods in the past? Harmony Gold made asses of themselves, and now they're dealing with the results of their actions... it's as simple as that.

Then Big West needs to find another way in then. Like I said , I have nothing against Macross products getting distributed here.

[Whamhammer]

actually it's not just his opinion... we have an aircraft thread so move that talk over there cuz your off topic.

Its not off topic , I'm relating what was said about the Shadow Chronicles not following Robotech history of fighter design to a historical basis for my arguement on it .

[Whamhammer]

"beneficial to two groups" lol.

There's some people that just skip over posts because they can't wait to post whats on their minds. Until they get banned from RT.com and then it's "F those MotherF'ers!"

If you were reffering to me in saying someone getting banned from RT.com , youve been skipping over posts yourself, I wasnt banned from RT.com, never had been ever. I walked away after I got tired of the way they treated people there that questioned them and accused people of being fanboys (some for even being "Macross" fan boys) so oure barking up the wrong tree there.

[BeyondTheGrave]

After reading all the post....

I don't understand why Hg hasn't tried to update the Veritech(Valkyrie) designs.

If you were to look back at all the aircraft designs in Macross you can actually see how they have remained the same and yet at the same time are unique in their design.

@ War Hammer why can't you create one large post with multiple quotes?

Its quite annoying to see new post and and over 4 of them are yours in a row with one line each.

Anyway I think at this point one would have to actually consider what the main drawing points of robotech that allow its story to stand out without looking like a rip off of Brave New World.

Also what are the 41 Images that were brought up earlier. I don't want to suffer and watch Memos videos.

Edited September 16, 2009 by BeyondTheGrave

[Seto Kaiba]

Also what are the 41 Images that were brought up earlier. I don't want to suffer and watch Memos videos.

The ones listed here: http://web.archive.org/web/20020803190522/...ents/index.html

Central characters, mechanical designs, and insignia from the original Super Dimension Fortress Macross series.

Edited September 16, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[BeyondTheGrave]

The ones listed here: http://web.archive.org/web/20020803190522/...ents/index.html

Central characters, mechanical designs, and insignia from the original Super Dimension Fortress Macross series.

Thank you.

Rt.com link confused me.

[Whamhammer]

You've been putting an awful lot of words in my mouth, and I don't appreciate it.

Can you stick to the arguments I'm making instead of the arguments you think I might make?

Look, we can throw piles of words at each other, but it all comes down to two main points: 1) I don't think there's any point in continuing a twenty-five-year-old slapdash, bowdlerized, whitewashed, Frankenstein monster of an anime (which is a footnote in history thanks to being the missing link between completely hacked-up kids shows like Battle of the Planets and the unfiltered, uncensored, unwesternized anime that came out in the '90s). 2) You apparently do.

I don't think I'm being unreasonable in my dislike of Robotech. I've told the story of my history with Macross and Robotech multiple times here and elsewhere, so I don't want to rehash it again.

But to say that my dislike of Robotech has nothing to do with Robotech itself, and everything to do with having something to complain about is untrue, insulting, and shows that you have no idea about where I'm coming from.

I would love to stick to the arguement you make as long as you stick to the ones I was making, I really feel that you havent . I respect that you dont like Robotech, thats fine with me. I've tried to say how Shadow Chronicles and Rising couldve/would be better via better a staff and better development and planning and not using Macross as well as criticized the parties at be on its shortfallings. Youv'e responed in kind on how the only good Robotech is a dead Robotech which is your right to believe but is hardly anything to add to the topic and hardly respectfull to my points as well. As much as people can say Im insulting , theres been more than enough of it going to me and Im not one to lay down while taking a beating and Ive been known to stay on the recieving end either.

Whn I have been proven wrong, I have openly admitted it and tried to add to the conversation on the way people see things. When you questioned my assesment of what you said, I told you where I was comming from and narrowed it down (even though, honestly I picked up a tone of insult from the way you questioned it, but wrote it off maybee I shouldnt of, oh well). I never meant to imply that your hatred of Robotech doesnt stem from Robotech, I meant to imply that it doesnt JUST stem from Robotech, sort of "thou doth protest too much" kinda thing like theres something underneath.

When it comes down to it, if you want this topic to be primarily about talking bad about H.G. and Robotech yourre not really looking for discussion, discussion contains constructive critisims as well as points of contention. Maybe the Mod's should change this thread to "How Robotech sucks and H.G. is evil" because thats the only thing some people seem interested in discussing, would this be more accurate?

[Whamhammer]

After reading all the post....

I don't understand why Hg hasn't tried to update the Veritech(Valkyrie) designs.

If you were to look back at all the aircraft designs in Macross you can actually see how they have remained the same and yet at the same time are unique in their design.

@ War Hammer why can't you create one large post with multiple quotes?

Its quite annoying to see new post and and over 4 of them are yours in a row with one line each.

Beyond,

On these two points;

1) In my opinion, they shouldn't bother updating the Valk's design, they arent being used by Earth , her colonies or the Expeditionary Force for about twenty years or so. They use the Alpha's and Beta's. I would say that Earth had a doctrinal change that changed what they needed in a fighter, now the Alphas offer a more flexible of a platform than the Valks were able to (what appear to be a larger weapons payload and more protection for components, etc.) , the Logan and A.G.A.X. were also on a more ground support capable kick (the Logan was a story of a plane become "jack-of-all-rades-master-of none" in my opinion) The E.D.F. even used non transformable fighters as thier mainstay intercept force(to its detrement) almost like they were trying to stretch the military budget to fit the better equipped R.E.F. while funding the E.D.F. . Like I've said earlier, if you use the last Forty years of the United States militaries arsenal as a comparison point, they dont look the same as the stuff that out now. Also take into account the frequency of air power used in Robotech, that amount of conflict spurs change faster in comparison to the amount of air combat seen by our armed forces that The U.S. has had over the same span of time.

2) I'm still not that familiar with this forum design. Im sorry that it annoys you , but Im trying to get more confident with it and Im tryng to keep the my discussions better organized by putting them to one "reply" each. Hopefully, Ill get better soon.

B.T.W. whats Brave New World? Is it anime? ( I only get to see like maybee one or two new series a year).

Edited September 16, 2009 by Whamhammer

[BeyondTheGrave]

I would love to stick to the arguement you make as long as you stick to the ones I was making, I really feel that you havent . I respect that you dont like Robotech, thats fine with me. I've tried to say how Shadow Chronicles and Rising couldve/would be better via better a staff and better development and planning and not using Macross as well as criticized the parties at be on its shortfallings. Youv'e responed in kind on how the only good Robotech is a dead Robotech which is your right to believe but is hardly anything to add to the topic and hardly respectfull to my points as well. As much as people can say Im insulting , theres been more than enough of it going to me and Im not one to lay down while taking a beating and Ive been known to stay on the recieving end either.

Whn I have been proven wrong, I have openly admitted it and tried to add to the conversation on the way people see things. When you questioned my assesment of what you said, I told you where I was comming from and narrowed it down (even though, honestly I picked up a tone of insult from the way you questioned it, but wrote it off maybee I shouldnt of, oh well). I never meant to imply that your hatred of Robotech doesnt stem from Robotech, I meant to imply that it doesnt JUST stem from Robotech, sort of "thou doth protest too much" kinda thing like theres something underneath.

That how the internet is you can't exactly tell how someone is talking by text alone. Facial expressions and voice inflection play a large part.

When it comes down to it, if you want this topic to be primarily about talking bad about H.G. and Robotech yourre not really looking for discussion, discussion contains constructive critisims as well as points of contention. Maybe the Mod's should change this thread to "How Robotech sucks and H.G. is evil" because thats the only thing some people seem interested in discussing, would this be more accurate?

Yes this thread does go down that road a lot. It's not so much a dislike of robotech just a dislike of how its original source material is treated. It doesn't when someone (not saying you) says that RT is the greatest thing to happen besides the Beatles and Hg owns everything associated with Macross

Edit:

I can see what your saying about the use of fighters . True the world of RT and Macross have need for fighters for different missions.(Correct me if I'm wrong) Rt solved the problem by just making a jack of all trades fighter and gave it a bunch of missiles. Macross went about it by creating a fighter that excelled in combat but gave it different armor packs to boost effectiveness.

One thing I noticed about SC is that they fired more missiles versus having actual dog fights.

Brave New World is a book... Not an anime. A crappy TV movie but not an anime.

Edited September 16, 2009 by BeyondTheGrave

[Lolicon]

Why does Big West need to "find a way in?" They seem to be doing just fine without giving HG a cent.

[Einherjar]

When it comes down to it, if you want this topic to be primarily about talking bad about H.G. and Robotech yourre not really looking for discussion, discussion contains constructive critisims as well as points of contention. Maybe the Mod's should change this thread to "How Robotech sucks and H.G. is evil" because thats the only thing some people seem interested in discussing, would this be more accurate?

I have to disagree, peppered into a lot of the stinging remarks a lot of us here have been posting are some real constructive criticisms about how HG has acted as a company as well as it's direction for Robotech. Trust me, it's been well documented by people here over the years. In fact, I'll say that it's been well documented everywhere except rt.com and fandom related sites. While a lot of it is negative, it really reflects some of what they've really been doing over the years, without the facade the company tends to bring about on their site, convention tours, and podcasts. All of that is Public Relations for the fans, and it doesn't always reflect what the company actually does. You say HG should have worked harder to turn Robotech into whatever and the like, but if they really could do anything they wouldn't be in this mess 25 years after their only success.

[Freiflug88]

Well, I just watched Part 2 of the 2004 Anime Expo Robotech panel that Memo posted on youtube, and I realized...I'm in it! Mostly you can just see the back of my head, but at 8:13 or thereabouts, I turn around and look for the guy asking the question.

So...should I send Memo a cease and desist order?

Why bother we all know your face now thanks to your description. Your current identity is ruined. Buy some glasses and get a job as a newspaper reporter or something as a secret identity. Writer for Protoculture Addicts perhaps?

Edited September 16, 2009 by Freiflug88

[Whamhammer]

I have to disagree, peppered into a lot of the stinging remarks a lot of us here have been posting are some real constructive criticisms about how HG has acted as a company as well as it's direction for Robotech. Trust me, it's been well documented by people here over the years. In fact, I'll say that it's been well documented everywhere except rt.com and fandom related sites. While a lot of it is negative, it really reflects some of what they've really been doing over the years, without the facade the company tends to bring about on their site, convention tours, and podcasts. All of that is Public Relations for the fans, and it doesn't always reflect what the company actually does. You say HG should have worked harder to turn Robotech into whatever and the like, but if they really could do anything they wouldn't be in this mess 25 years after their only success.

H.G., just as any company can work harder, it just requires the decision to do so and the will power to make it happen a little more planning wouldve been key in making S.C. a better product. McKeever loves to say how profitable and succcessfull they are. I say take that success, take that profit, convert it into capital and do something with it. If they dont want to , sell it to a company that does. Take everything else you hated about Robotech/Shadow Chronicles, would you agree that Shadow Chronicles wouldv'e been more palatable if just the dialogue had been improoved by say, 25%? That wouldve gone a long way in moving that franchise forward. The worst part is that members of thier fan base complained about it , and instead of listening, they portrayed them as the enemy . I have never said H.G. is willing to do the things that I suggested. Heck I plain doubt that they will, but that doesnt mean I shouldn't say it with the thought that it will get a few more people thinking about it and maybe roll with it.

[Whamhammer]

Why does Big West need to "find a way in?" They seem to be doing just fine without giving HG a cent.

Last I've heard, the complaint is that H.G. is making it hard for Macross products to make it into the U.S., is this not true?

[EXO]

Im talking about the actuall anime.

How would the anime benefit from HG's involvement? They're already done. And have you seen what HG can do with anime? The answer from BW would still be Thanks but no thanks.

[EXO]

Last I've heard, the complaint is that H.G. is making it hard for Macross products to make it into the U.S., is this not true?

The only people with that complaint has either never heard of the internet or people that want BW to make the deal with HG, which would be Robotech fans. The benefits that HG can offer would be so minimal.

[Whamhammer]

That how the internet is you can't exactly tell how someone is talking by text alone. Facial expressions and voice inflection play a large part.

Edit:

I can see what your saying about the use of fighters . True the world of RT and Macross have need for fighters for different missions.(Correct me if I'm wrong) Rt solved the problem by just making a jack of all trades fighter and gave it a bunch of missiles. Macross went about it by creating a fighter that excelled in combat but gave it different armor packs to boost effectiveness.

One thing I noticed about SC is that they fired more missiles versus having actual dog fights.

Brave New World is a book... Not an anime. A crappy TV movie but not an anime.

It also seems that the Alpha also has more protection of vital components that the Valks do . The Valks seem to be more a "mission orientated" philosophy, put the extra weapons packs if you need them (and have access to them). The Alpha's philosophy seems to be "take into account all possibilites and work a comprimise in those roles"(give alittle bit of speed and manuerabilty here for firepower and toughness here, etc.), however they do have the Betas as a supplement (dont ask me why the Betas arent crewed, Ive been asking myself that for years). So yes, I agree with the way youve stated that.

Yes , I was let down with the "dogfights" in S.C. , they had blown a really good opportunity there, especially the scene where they were trying to establish Maia as this "ace" pilot shooting down twenty some-ought enemy craft in one "furrball", it really wasnt convincing.

[EXO]

H.G., just as any company can work harder, it just requires the decision to do so and the will power to make it happen a little more planning wouldve been key in making S.C. a better product. McKeever loves to say how profitable and succcessfull they are. I say take that success, take that profit, convert it into capital and do something with it. If they dont want to , sell it to a company that does. Take everything else you hated about Robotech/Shadow Chronicles, would you agree that Shadow Chronicles wouldv'e been more palatable if just the dialogue had been improoved by say, 25%? That wouldve gone a long way in moving that franchise forward. The worst part is that members of thier fan base complained about it , and instead of listening, they portrayed them as the enemy . I have never said H.G. is willing to do the things that I suggested. Heck I plain doubt that they will, but that doesnt mean I shouldn't say it with the thought that it will get a few more people thinking about it and maybe roll with it.

Really? Better dialogue would save an anime? What about better animation, better designs, better story?

Of course McKeever has to proclaim success... If he went out and said that they could have done much better he'd be out of a job. He's the MARKETING guy. I don't really understand a company that has a marketing guy that was so important that his name is up there along side the creative director... I'd pretty sure everytime he says the word success you can replace it with the word adequate. If you compare Macross's success in the little corner of the world they are relegated to versus THE REST OF THE WORLD that Tasanuko and HG claims... I'm pretty sure it'll fail to compare.

Where'd you guys find this guy anyway? Whamhammer... is that like George Michael's tool?

[Gubaba]

I would love to stick to the arguement you make as long as you stick to the ones I was making, I really feel that you havent . I respect that you dont like Robotech, thats fine with me. I've tried to say how Shadow Chronicles and Rising couldve/would be better via better a staff and better development and planning and not using Macross as well as criticized the parties at be on its shortfallings. Youv'e responed in kind on how the only good Robotech is a dead Robotech which is your right to believe but is hardly anything to add to the topic and hardly respectfull to my points as well. As much as people can say Im insulting , theres been more than enough of it going to me and Im not one to lay down while taking a beating and Ive been known to stay on the recieving end either.

Whn I have been proven wrong, I have openly admitted it and tried to add to the conversation on the way people see things. When you questioned my assesment of what you said, I told you where I was comming from and narrowed it down (even though, honestly I picked up a tone of insult from the way you questioned it, but wrote it off maybee I shouldnt of, oh well). I never meant to imply that your hatred of Robotech doesnt stem from Robotech, I meant to imply that it doesnt JUST stem from Robotech, sort of "thou doth protest too much" kinda thing like theres something underneath.

When it comes down to it, if you want this topic to be primarily about talking bad about H.G. and Robotech yourre not really looking for discussion, discussion contains constructive critisims as well as points of contention. Maybe the Mod's should change this thread to "How Robotech sucks and H.G. is evil" because thats the only thing some people seem interested in discussing, would this be more accurate?

Well, thank you for the psychoanalysis. How much do I owe you?

And no, I wasn't trying to insult you. As I said, maybe I'm just communicating badly. As for others...well, you kind of have to expect it, unfortunately. Over the years, we've had a fair number of crazed Robotech fans show up trying to justify their favorite show. Enough of them got abusive that I think a lot of us tend to be wary.

And yes, I know a lot of Macross fans have done the same thing on the RT.com boards. Personally, I don't condone that kind of behavior; I know what I like, and I don't really feel the need to force anybody else to conform to my tastes. Although if someone gets obnoxious about it, I don't mind pointing that out (witness the Sheryl/Ranka "discussions" of last year). As such, I don't feel the need to troll the RT.com boards, and I've come out against Youtube Macrss fans who just hurl expletives at Robotech videos.

But if you're looking for a real debate, I have to say I think you're at a disadvantage. Most of us have seen both Robotech AND Macross; you haven't. And what are we debating, anyway? Are you trying to get me to accept Robotech?

You're coming up with what HG needs to do to ensure that the next Robotech installment will be not be a mess. My question is, why does there need to be a next installment at all? And no one has really answered that.

B.T.W. whats Brave New World? Is it anime? ( I only get to see like maybee one or two new series a year).

Wow...you mean they didn't force you to read that in high school? Get on the ball, then...Aldous Huxley is quite good.