Morpheus Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 Concept of IRL stealth technology was introduced in Macross universe since Mac 7/Plus with the active/passive stealth on valk and some capital ships designated as stealth frigate/carrier/cruiser. However it seems that being stealth is pretty useless in space, stealth ships are always spotted by enemy, even got hit from long range. During operation Stargaze in Mac 7, the stealth frigate release several chaff to diffuse its fold signature, yet it was detected by the Varauta using their advance Spiritia detection system. I say stealth ships are useless in space unless its capable of full cloaking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedWolf Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 Well Macross does have a mastery of holography. As someone said the operator manning the cross-dimension radar should be fired. How can they not see the profile of Battle Galaxy? So stealth + sophisticated holography? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobbes221 Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 IRL stealth tech is also called Low Observability Technology, meaning that it does not keep the bad guys from seeing you altogether just keeps them from seeing you longer. I'm not done with M7 (only up to 25) so I'm not sure how it is shown there but in Frontier I don't think that it was ever stated that any type of craft was operating as a stealth should. By that I mean the -171s were shown with weapons slung under the wings which would kill the LO design of the airframe, however they could get around that if they also had active stealth systems. We saw no stealth ships prowling along alone in space away from the main fleet and other things along those lines. (at least I think so) During operation Stargaze in Mac 7, the stealth frigate release several chaff to diffuse its fold signature, yet it was detected by the Varauta using their advance Spiritia detection system. Have not seen this yet, but from what you are saying it sounds like they did not fully understand their enemy's capability. Did they know about a Spiritia detection system? And as for stealth against the Vajra I'm not sure if it was stated just how the Vajra found targets other than the whole fold wave thing. The one thing that I don't think we have seen yet since Macross took on stealth technology is how well it works against Zentradi fleets that could still pose as threats and I believe that could be a large reason as to why they keep the LO tech on hand. Also remember that it has been said that the military trains to fight the last war, maybe that's why there were speaker pods for the -25, just in case something like the Varauta showed up. I'm sure if we were to see what happens after Frontier, NUNS will be planning to fight without counting on reaction weapons due to the lack of effectiveness against the Vajra. I've talked with some people (active and retired military) who feel that the dogfights of WWII will make a comeback if everyone has stealth aircraft due to long range radars having little effect, and that brings up the topic of if radar has little use do you then get rid of them and run the risk of having the enemy use aircraft that are not stealthy but you can't see them anyways because you don't have the radar anymore. So all in all I think that stealth tech has its place in Macross, its just not the 'F-117As having free reign over Baghdad in '91' type of place. I have always liked the way in which the rate of Valkyries and tech of Macross seems to grow with each series. Hope I made at least some sense and that was not just one big ramble Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedWolf Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 Zentradi or at very least Quamzin's group has been shown to have stealth technology. The same thing can be said of Brera's VF-27. Thing is it has been shown especially with Macross Plus that AVF program was much made to deal with internal and domestic problems. There are still groups of AUN out there not to say the least rebel Zentradi. In the decades since Space War 1 UN Spacy/NUNS has not dealt with alien enemy forces except the Protodevlin and the Vajra. The guys they are really scared about another Zentradi Bodol fleet or the Supervision Army has not manifested yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d3v Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 (edited) Well, we've seen that active stealth can make a craft disappear from radar altogether in Mac Plus episode 1. In episode 4 however,as they're defolding and preparing to fly into Earth, Yang mentions to Isamu that the probability of their active stealth keeping Earth's defenses from detecting them is 58%. So it seems that the arms race in terms of LO tech vs. sensors seems to move so quickly that stealth tech isn't as effective as it is today IRL. Edited October 8, 2008 by d3v Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr March Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 Stealth, as it's used in Macross, is almost assuredly included in the fiction for the purpose of justifying dogfight-style aircraft warfare. It's probably also a touch of realism for the sake of window dressing. Macross is fundamentally an aircraft show in a science fiction setting, so stealth technologies could be mentioned to add a sense of reality to the fictional aircraft/spacecraft. Real aircraft use stealth, so the Valkyries can appear more legitimate if they also use stealth. Within the Macross fiction, stealth appears to function in a different manner depending upon the circumstances and era. The change in effectiveness of stealth over time may also be an attempt on the creator's part to tell the audience how electronic warfare really works; advances in both evasion and detection are constantly evolving and thus the nature and effectiveness of stealth with rise and fall over time. Though I admit, such continuity is definitely giving Kawamori and Co. more credit than the thought they likely put into Macross itself. Likely the inclusion of the technology is "stealth in name only". In SDF Macross, DYRL, FB2012, stealth wasn't mentioned at all. In Macross Zero, the SV-51 was basically invisible to radar even at close range In Macross Plus, Guld's YF-21 disappeared completely from radar despite flying less than a dozen meters from Isamu's VF-11B Thunderbolt In Macross 7, stealth is part of the official literature on the mecha and ships, but doesn't appear to be mentioned or shown in any way In Macross Frontier, the only stealth shown is Brera's VF-27. His craft appears difficult to detect at any significant range and he's always popping out of nowhere almost undetected until he's right on top of everyone. For ships, there appears to be very little difference between stealth and non-stealth from the viewers perspective. I think the way stealth is handled in Macross may be an attempt on the creators part to both acknowledge real stealth but to avoid being limited by it. Reiterating my original point, I think stealth in Macross is "Real Robot" style flavoring; a way to add realism to the fiction of Macross. Stealth may also be used for plot convenience, but it may be ignored later without much thought. Stealth helps explain a few things about the nature of warfare in Macross, but it doesn't have much prominence beyond that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1/1 LowViz Lurker Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 (edited) What I'd like to see is optic stealth. When are they going to have a Ghost which can actually cloak itself visually from cameras like a real ghost? http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/...70402141206.htm A ground version of the ghost drone that creeps on the ground would be useful. Sort of like an evolution of the octos, that hides in the water, then goes to ground and cloaks for surprise attacks. Edited October 9, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morpheus Posted October 9, 2008 Author Share Posted October 9, 2008 What I'd like to see is optic stealth. When are they going to have a Ghost which can actually cloak itself visually from cameras like a real ghost? http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/...70402141206.htm A ground version of the ghost drone that creeps on the ground would be useful. Sort of like an evolution of the octos, that hides in the water, then goes to ground and cloaks for surprise attacks. Grace original Dimension Eater on Galia IV got optical stealth, so I believe Galaxy got some prototypes of cloaking tech on one of their valk/ghost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Final Vegeta Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 Grace original Dimension Eater on Galia IV got optical stealth, so I believe Galaxy got some prototypes of cloaking tech on one of their valk/ghost. Not talking about Battle Galaxy itself . FV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1/1 LowViz Lurker Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 Yeah but if Brera had it on his valk he could have avoided being seen by Alto in the series when the first Vajra massive beam gun thingy was first shown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azrael Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 Grace original Dimension Eater on Galia IV got optical stealth, so I believe Galaxy got some prototypes of cloaking tech on one of their valk/ghost. I think you guys are confusing stealth with camouflage. Grace's DE on Galia 4 was optical camouflage, not stealth. Battle Galaxy was probably using active stealth to reduce/eliminate it's radar signature, optical camo to avoid unwanted eyes, and then the holographic projection of Ranka. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishimaru Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 I think you guys are confusing stealth with camouflage. Grace's DE on Galia 4 was optical camouflage, not stealth. Battle Galaxy was probably using active stealth to reduce/eliminate it's radar signature, optical camo to avoid unwanted eyes, and then the holographic projection of Ranka. Still stealth, there are different meanings to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morpheus Posted October 10, 2008 Author Share Posted October 10, 2008 Still stealth, there are different meanings to it. I think what Azrael means is stealth concept which can not be detected by radar/sensor while the entire camouflage thing (or cloaking) is to hide the object visually from an observer. Off course the two are entirely different thing, like how missile gains lock on a target, one depends on radar signature or heat signature and there are also another type which relies on visual lock on target. VF-17 attempt to do both by using passive stealth and black camouflage to make it difficult to track in the darkness of space. However the concept of using hologram as a camouflage/cloaking is somehow not right IMO, the concept in camouflage/cloaking is to make yourself blended with the environment (thus making it difficult for enemy to locate you visually). When Battle Galaxy is using Ranka hologram as a camouflage, is like inviting Ranka-hater to shoot it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azrael Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 However the concept of using hologram as a camouflage/cloaking is somehow not right IMO, the concept in camouflage/cloaking is to make yourself blended with the environment (thus making it difficult for enemy to locate you visually). When Battle Galaxy is using Ranka hologram as a camouflage, is like inviting Ranka-hater to shoot it. I didn't think that they anticipated someone actually shooting the image... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr March Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 That's one tech complaint I had about the final episode. I suppose there could have been ECM involved, but the hologram of Ranka should have had zero effect upon radar. It's not even a physical object, so radar would have seen right through it and detected the Battle Galaxy. But even if ECM was being used to mask the Battle Galaxy, wouldn't any experienced NUNS captain (like Wilder or Wilen) recognize that all that jamming would be used to hide something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d3v Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 Well, if Battle Galaxy was using good enough stealth or ECM, it's possible that all the bridge operators could see was a big contact where the Ranka image was. That, combined with the reverse culture shock of having Ai Oboete Imasuka used against them would mean that they were probably caught off guard and at that point were more focused on repelling the Vajra counterattack. The fact that a Vajra cap ship got close enough to go for a point blank shot at the bridge could possibly show how effective the counterattack was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Final Vegeta Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 But even if ECM was being used to mask the Battle Galaxy, wouldn't any experienced NUNS captain (like Wilder or Wilen) recognize that all that jamming would be used to hide something? Why jamming? Battle Frontier is a ステルス攻撃宇宙空母 (stealth attack space carrier). FV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobbes221 Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 That's one tech complaint I had about the final episode. I suppose there could have been ECM involved, but the hologram of Ranka should have had zero effect upon radar. It's not even a physical object, so radar would have seen right through it and detected the Battle Galaxy. But even if ECM was being used to mask the Battle Galaxy, wouldn't any experienced NUNS captain (like Wilder or Wilen) recognize that all that jamming would be used to hide something? There could have been both noise and deception ECM system going at the same time. With a false target generation system making for other contacts in the area the Battle Galaxy could have been 'strobing' it's stealth system, on the radar one moment and gone the next, there by making it appear to be just one of the fake targets. They did say something about the Vajra using ECM way back epi 1, didn't they? So that may also have complicated things as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garou Kuroryuu Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 There could have been both noise and deception ECM system going at the same time. With a false target generation system making for other contacts in the area the Battle Galaxy could have been 'strobing' it's stealth system, on the radar one moment and gone the next, there by making it appear to be just one of the fake targets. They did say something about the Vajra using ECM way back epi 1, didn't they? So that may also have complicated things as well. Yes, enough ECM from Battle Galaxy + holographic projection + supposition that Battle Galaxy was missing + Vajra massive barrage = total confusion and lack of attention to details Battle Galaxy may not have been totally undetectable to Frontier, but it was as unexpected to them that it was easy to assume that it was indeed a Ranka holographic projection being generated by the Vajra themselves. Com'on, weren't most of us fooled as well? Even when we clearly had the advantage over NUNS of having seen Galaxy's bridge in Alto's virtual dive into the Ranka hologram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedikid129 Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 Yes, enough ECM from Battle Galaxy + holographic projection + supposition that Battle Galaxy was missing + Vajra massive barrage = total confusion and lack of attention to details Battle Galaxy may not have been totally undetectable to Frontier, but it was as unexpected to them that it was easy to assume that it was indeed a Ranka holographic projection being generated by the Vajra themselves. Com'on, weren't most of us fooled as well? Even when we clearly had the advantage over NUNS of having seen Galaxy's bridge in Alto's virtual dive into the Ranka hologram I was totally fooled, until they blew away the giant ranka. I remeber thinking "Why are you shooting at it, thats soo--OH poo! BATTLE GALAXY!?) Perhaps Galaxy depended a little too much on stealth, because at visual range, Cannon and all, they got pwned. That's a legitmate concern for our world too I suppose...What would we do if our Uber expensive F-22s lost all their stealth HAX? Even without it suppose F-22 > 2-3 Su27s but when they have 5 to 1 odds or more against them with stealth negated nothing can win not even the f-22. Galaxy met that fate, 2 on 1 and they didnt have the conventional weapons and tactics to deal with it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1/1 LowViz Lurker Posted October 11, 2008 Share Posted October 11, 2008 (edited) I think you guys are confusing stealth with camouflage. Grace's DE on Galia 4 was optical camouflage, not stealth. Battle Galaxy was probably using active stealth to reduce/eliminate it's radar signature, optical camo to avoid unwanted eyes, and then the holographic projection of Ranka. What I wanted to see was actual optical camouflage as well on the battroid mode. If you are a sniper, you want to have all the advantages you can get on the insects. If you are a victim of sniper, you want to make their job as hard to shoot you as you can. If this tech exists for the fold bomb (dimension eater or whatever that thing is) to hide it, why not make use of it on other things? If Brera had optical stealth/camo, Alto would never have caught the footage of him in his gun camera sneaking away in the episode where you first get to see Brera in his flashy red futuristic valk. Of course there would be "something" on radar to suggest someone was there, but you wouldn't get to describe what it was since it is cloaked right? If Max had the optic stealth valk way back in space war I, he could easily sneak aboard ships better, undetected instead of using that silly disguise. I think UN Spacy has these valks in existence for special missions. That's what those Black yamato non-canon VF-1 toy releases are: when you just have to get close to something and be inside the ship to know what's going on. Oh well maybe if we get a series 2 of macross frontier: New use destroids are used to build cities on the settled home planet and now the humans are being attacked by hostile aliens which were natural predators of the Vajra and had used them as food for millions of years and the humans have upset the balance by taking away their food source. The new version of the octos is used to explore, and ancient ruins are found in the water of a race that once lived there but was destroyed by the vajra. (the vajra had eliminated them a long time ago) Now a split between nuns and vajra and these hostile aliens has begun for control of the planet. The backstory of the supervision army is given. Edited October 11, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d3v Posted October 11, 2008 Share Posted October 11, 2008 What I wanted to see was actual optical camouflage as well on the battroid mode. If you are a sniper, you want to have all the advantages you can get on the insects. If you are a victim of sniper, you want to make their job as hard to shoot you as you can. If this tech exists for the fold bomb (dimension eater or whatever that thing is) to hide it, why not make use of it on other things? If Brera had optical stealth/camo, Alto would never have caught the footage of him in his gun camera sneaking away in the episode where you first get to see Brera in his flashy red futuristic valk. Of course there would be "something" on radar to suggest someone was there, but you wouldn't get to describe what it was since it is cloaked right? If Max had the optic stealth valk way back in space war I, he could easily sneak aboard ships better, undetected instead of using that silly disguise. I think UN Spacy has these valks in existence for special missions. That's what those Black yamato non-canon VF-1 toy releases are: when you just have to get close to something and be inside the ship to know what's going on. It's possible that they simply cannot disguise an object as large as a valk with optical camo... yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobbes221 Posted October 11, 2008 Share Posted October 11, 2008 It's possible that they simply cannot disguise an object as large as a valk with optical camo... yet. And having to place enough emitters/projectors on a craft that transforms could also be a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macrossvf-1msx Posted October 11, 2008 Share Posted October 11, 2008 (edited) 1/1 LowViz Lurker do you realy want Macross to copy something for gundam seed lol GAT-X207 Blitz Gundam Edited October 11, 2008 by macrossvf-1msx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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