High Definition Media & Technology Thread

[David Hingtgen]

Unconfirmed, but very likely to be true from AVSforum:

"BestBuy is having a promo next week, where you get $100 off a PS3 or 360 when you buy a HDTV"

Man, if I only was ready to buy next week...

[eugimon]

you could always try this: 100 dollar credit when you make a purchase of 299 or more with a new Sony VISA.

[Gaijin]

yeah.. who needs a more affordable, easier to manufacture, region free and spec finalized format when we can have get over priced players that can't play releases just a year later due to a format that's always changing, sloppy transfers on a bloated out-dated codec and 2 disc releases which completely negate the advantages of increased capacity. Yup, consumers really won this time.

Aside from many of your points being wrong or outright lies, even given that, it is all a moot point if there are no studios supporting it. There were few before, there are fewer now.

[eugimon]

Aside from many of your points being wrong or outright lies, even given that, it is all a moot point if there are no studios supporting it. There were few before, there are fewer now.

HD-DVD more affordabe? true, entry level players are more affordable.

HD-DVD easier to manufacture? True, HD-DVD is based off of DVD tech and doesn't require completely new facilities to be built.

HD-DVD region free? true, blu-ray is not.

HD-DVD spec finalized? true HDi was done from the start and offers access to the menu during playback as well as interactivity and PIP. BD just got it and older players may not be compatible.

Sloppy BD transfers? Look at Pirates of the Carribean: Dead Man's Chest. compression related artifacts abound.

Bloated codecs? Yup, most everyone agrees MPEG-2 doesn't give any better IQ even though it produces much larger files... thus, bloated.

2 Disc releases? Yup, look at all of the Pirates BD releases. Given all the hype BD fanboys throw around about BD vaunted higher capacity, I find it kind of funny.

Just because you've been blinded by the hype machine that is blu-ray, doesn't make what I said either wrong or lies. And i've said it before, and I continue to say it, i don't care if HD-DVD wins or loses. My post was a direct response to jwinges fanboy flame post, I simple answered rhetoric with rhetoric. A point which you completely missed or ignored, just like you completely ignored the discussion Dangard Ace and I were having on the actual merits of the two formats.

[Gaijin]

HD-DVD more affordabe? true, entry level players are more affordable.

HD-DVD easier to manufacture? True, HD-DVD is based off of DVD tech and doesn't require completely new facilities to be built.

HD-DVD region free? true, blu-ray is not.

HD-DVD spec finalized? true HDi was done from the start and offers access to the menu during playback as well as interactivity and PIP. BD just got it and older players may not be compatible.

Sloppy BD transfers? Look at Pirates of the Carribean: Dead Man's Chest. compression related artifacts abound.

Bloated codecs? Yup, most everyone agrees MPEG-2 doesn't give any better IQ even though it produces much larger files... thus, bloated.

2 Disc releases? Yup, look at all of the Pirates BD releases. Given all the hype BD fanboys throw around about BD vaunted higher capacity, I find it kind of funny.

Just because you've been blinded by the hype machine that is blu-ray, doesn't make what I said either wrong or lies. And i've said it before, and I continue to say it, i don't care if HD-DVD wins or loses. My post was a direct response to jwinges fanboy flame post, I simple answered rhetoric with rhetoric. A point which you completely missed or ignored, just like you completely ignored the discussion Dangard Ace and I were having on the actual merits of the two formats.

Relax kid. Not blinded. Vested interest in. Well beyond, "buying a player and discs" fanboyism. If I thought HD DVD was going to win, we'd have backed that instead. But the HD DVD product itself is fine. Just very poor decisions and getting into a cash war that Toshiba cannot possibly win, even with Microsoft "backing" them.

All your 4 "HD DVD" points are again, moot, as was pointed out before, though I'll give you HD DVD being region free a plus, except that in the rest of the world, HD DVD tanked even harder than it is doing in the US. Even so, I would suspect that the BD region code will satisfy anime and japan show watching people such as those on the forum here. Honestly, was that a selling point for you? If you live in another country than the US, then ignore my question and yes, I'll give you that point.

The points you seem "misinformed" about:

Sloppy BD Transfer...I'll give you some of that one, but if that is to be the case, there are many sloppy HD DVD transfers as well. Browse through them all, and you'll find just as many poor ones. And a sloppy transfer isn't a fault of the disc or format but, is a fault of the studio.

Bloated codec. MPEG 2 is not used anymore and even if it is, does anyone care if the film is released on BD50 in MPEG 2 in higher bit rate that looks the same as an AVC encode on a BD-25? Nope. Besides, as I said, BD has used AVC and VC-1 from ending of 1006, early 2007.

2 disc releases have nothing to do with putting extras on the disc because of capacity, but because of perceived value. Studios have polled thousands...most people believe they are getting "more" even if they can have it all on one disc with no loss in quality. The people want their "extras" on an "extra".

Easier to manufacture...sure at HD DVD's launch, before Blu-ray disc plants had facilities. Not one company complains of BD being "harder to manufacture" today.

What BD player can't play discs released today? Non profile 1.1 and 2.0 players can't play the additional 1.1 or 2.0 feature on the disc, but they still play the disc itself. Fact is, there are far more reports of HD DVD discs not playing in 360 add ons then there are of BD's in all stand alone and PS3's. I'd have guessed it was my add on, but many others experienced the same, with firmware updates for the Tosh's as well.

The merits of HD DVD in lower cost players (brought on by Toshiba subsidizing what they could not afford to, and no other manufacturer can nor was willing to do), lower cost of pressing discs, (negated by the Combo discs as well as MSRP's by the studios...check prices...they didn't pass on any savings to the consumer, in fact, HD DVD's are regularly priced higher in stores).

HD DVD has "finalized" specs, but the early and "entry level" players were never "finalized". Some early and entry level players only output in 1080i, they also boast no way to support the planned HD DVD managed copy that was a future selling point(of which Microsoft pushed and pushed as a feature that everyone on AVS forum loved...it of course never happened in time). Nor did anyone truly know if HD DVD recordables would work in any of those HD DVD players out there since it wasn't designed with recording in mind. That would come "later". Sound familiar?

BD's have access to the menu while the disc is playing. From the very first players. What you mistakenly might be thinking of is the PIP 1.1 profile you mentioned. DVD had the same "faults". No DVD-R or +R or RW playback. No MP3 CD's. No progressive scan. No DTS decoding. Fact of life.

HD DVD had their chance but ,whatever advantages they "had" were timed advantages until Blu-ray caught up and surpassed. And, as predicted, the BDA has done that.

My point is that the points you provided as ammo against a BD fanboy are blanks. There are better points to be brought up, ones that are still vaild today. Somewhat.

Out of curiousity...do you have a BD Player? Many of your points you brought up, would be plain to see had you played a disc. If you have both, one can see both the pros and cons. But your cons about BD are old ones that either no longer apply or aren't true. And the things I just brought up, Danguard Ace brought up before, the difference was that I said you were wrong and somehow, that must have rubbed you wrong since you had prety much agreed with what DA had pointed out. Sorry if it seemed personal, it wasn't.

A good argument against a Blu-ray fanboy if you want one is to just point at Michael Bay. Man doesn't know what he's talking about on the tech side, but oh well.

Edited January 10, 2008 by Gaijin

[JsARCLIGHT]

If you ask me (which no one does so I just elbow my way in and start talking) what has really "won" this format war is that Blu Ray has had far more "we actually care" releases than HD DVD. The "problem" with introducing a new format is that you have to really "sell" that format to the consumer. In the early days of this fight both formats really only offered one thing: improved picture and sound. The reason you bought a BD or HD DVD disc rather than a standard DVD was for the promise of an improved audio visual experience.

I can look on my video shelf at home and just start pulling Blu Ray discs that I consider to be outstanding examples of HD media... but when I look at my HD DVD discs there are really only a handful of them I actually consider "demo material worthy". Now some of those HD DVDs are outstanding in their quality (Hot Fuzz anyone?) but that quality is really sort of few and far between from my experience. The lion's share of my HD DVD discs are "ok"... not stellar, not spectacular... just "decent". On the other hand I consider the lion's share of my Blu Ray discs to be excellent with really only a handful of "sour" movies.

Needless to say some companies "got it" and put effort into releasing high quality HD movies while other companies just sort of phoned it in and released a lot of sub-par "not worth the upgrade" movies. As the formats soldiered on, I started noticing a growing trend of some studios really taking their time and trying to release high quality HD movies. These "flagship" titles were pretty rare at the beginning but now more and more are coming out. One thing I will have to say is that more and more of those titles were Blu Ray. That is not to say that HD DVD does not produce some good discs, but by and large the studios that backed HD DVD just seemed to have this sort of blahze "meh" attitude towards their releases. Both formats produced some really good discs, but it just seems to me that the Blu Ray folks "cared" a lot more. Heck, they cared so much that they re-released The Fifth Element and replaced the old copies for people... I'd like to see them do that for Dune on HD DVD.

[wm cheng]

Hey JsARCLIGHT, I would be interested in what you consider as the flagship or demo-worthy BR-DVD titles (I'm interested in building up my collection). I find that the new Blade Runner is a simply amazing transfer and is my demo disk (tons of inky blacks! very 3D).

I'll jump in finally (been a lurker on this thread for months - but I finally got a HD 1080p projector Panasonic PT-AE2000 with a 100" screen and a PS3 over the Holidays) as I finally have some experience in the issue now. I was format neutral and wanted to sit and wait the war out - being an original Beta AND Laserdisc owner, I am understandably cautious when another format war opens up. However, after getting a taste of HD on a 100" screen - I just had to jump in, plus the PS3 upscales and deinterlaces SD-DVDs so much better than any of my existing DVD players did. Hmm spend $200 on a decent Oppi DVD player or $400 for a new blu-ray player that networks and plays media from my desktop upstairs and allows me onto the internet while in the basement - seemed like a no brainer for me. Ultimately it was the cheap cost of the PS3 and that it had more titles that I was interested in that won me over. Plus I swore I would never own any Toshiba equipment again! I've literally thrown away a Toshiba TV, VCR and HTiB DVD/Amp/Speaker combo and my wife even supported me doing so - since she experienced how infuriating I was when ever I used such poorly designed cheap crap!! The mere fact that Toshiba was the only manufacturer that produced HD-DVD players pretty much made my decision for me. From the hardware side, you've got Sony, Panasonic, Denon, Marantz, Onkyo, Pioneer, LG, Samsung - almost all the major A/V players and NOT a computer software company running the show. Just like cameras, I would stick with Nikon or Canon (traditional photographic manufacturers) instead of the Casio, HP or other computer manufacturers. Thats just my cent and a half.

I am glad the war is coming to an end mostly because I hope once it ends, most of the titles I care about will be released - the current crop is slim pickins. And its nice to finally be on the winning side for once (and porn wasn't the deciding factor this time around - did we grow as a society?! )

Edited January 10, 2008 by wm cheng

[JsARCLIGHT]

My "Go To" Blu Ray demo disc is Pirates of the Caribbean 1 (specifically the ship to ship fight scene). That scene in that disc is perfect demo material. Tons of motion, tons of contrast and color, massive hard hitting bass and treble and tons of small intricate details moving both slow and fast. My "back up" demo disc is Pixar's Ratatouille.

Other Blu Ray movies with very, very good picture and audio quality in my collection are Blade Runner (as you mentioned) and Pixar's Cars. Sony's Surfs Up gets an honorable mention for picture quality and sound. Other notable "very good" picture and audio discs are Corpse Bride, Chicken Little and my personal favorite The Road Warrior. Road Warrior is not a demo disc picture and sound wise but the marked improvement from DVD to Blu Ray alone makes it a noteworthy title.

If I just want to showcase my sound system my Blu Ray of choice is Black Hawk Down (great audio with thunderous bass and tons of multi channel audio).

[mikeszekely]

Relax kid. Not blinded. Vested interest in. Well beyond, "buying a player and discs" fanboyism. If I thought HD DVD was going to win, we'd have backed that instead.

You've mentioned that before. I'm curious, who is "we"? Who/where do you work? You don't have to answer if you don't want to, I'm just curious. I've been selling tech at retail since 1998, and I'm looking to move to the other side of the industry.

If you ask me (which no one does so I just elbow my way in and start talking) what has really "won" this format war is that Blu Ray has had far more "we actually care" releases than HD DVD.

That's probably true. I got the feeling, though, that a lot of studios, even while supporting both formats, were always more interested in Blu-ray. At this point, I really don't care who wins; I've got 17 Blu-rays and 2 HD-DVDs on my shelf (one of which I only bought because it was on clearance at a Target for $4.50). But I still can't shake the feeling that the studios, not the consumers, decided this war. And I do have to question if what's good for the studio is good for the consumer.

[JsARCLIGHT]

The studios are ALWAYS going to decide. In today's world the consumer is told what they want and how much of it they want. The only "choice" a consumer has is to buy or not to buy, what they actually buy was decided for them months in advance by a panel of businessmen. And as such people voted their wallets and chose to buy more Blu Ray than HD DVD. In the end they were not really "choosing" one format over another, they were simply picking the movies they wanted and leaving the rest. For one format to truly have "won" in a pure choice contest both formats would have had to have had the same movies available for the same prices... then you'd see a purely democratic "choice of the people" result.

The "result" as we have it now is basically the "right" movies came out at the right times that favored one format over another. I firmly believe that if Universal had managed to release a lot of it's big big name properties (Jaws, Jurassic Park, Back to the Future, etc) that they probably could have given HD DVD a real shot in the arm. That is kind of what I was talking about before... Blu Ray had all these exclusive big big titles that just seemed to be swaying the fight. HD DVD just seems to have this problem that their "exclusive" titles are a majority catalog of near hits, indie flicks and older titles. From what I've seen the majority share of HD DVD's big sellers were dual format movies with only one or two rare exceptions (Transformers, Batman Begins) while Blu Ray seems to have had more first tier, high profile exclusive titles that more people want.

[eugimon]

Relax kid. Not blinded. Vested interest in. Well beyond, "buying a player and discs" fanboyism. If I thought HD DVD was going to win, we'd have backed that instead. But the HD DVD product itself is fine. Just very poor decisions and getting into a cash war that Toshiba cannot possibly win, even with Microsoft "backing" them.

All your 4 "HD DVD" points are again, moot, as was pointed out before, though I'll give you HD DVD being region free a plus, except that in the rest of the world, HD DVD tanked even harder than it is doing in the US. Even so, I would suspect that the BD region code will satisfy anime and japan show watching people such as those on the forum here. Honestly, was that a selling point for you? If you live in another country than the US, then ignore my question and yes, I'll give you that point.

The points you seem "misinformed" about:

Sloppy BD Transfer...I'll give you some of that one, but if that is to be the case, there are many sloppy HD DVD transfers as well. Browse through them all, and you'll find just as many poor ones. And a sloppy transfer isn't a fault of the disc or format but, is a fault of the studio.

Bloated codec. MPEG 2 is not used anymore and even if it is, does anyone care if the film is released on BD50 in MPEG 2 in higher bit rate that looks the same as an AVC encode on a BD-25? Nope. Besides, as I said, BD has used AVC and VC-1 from ending of 1006, early 2007.

2 disc releases have nothing to do with putting extras on the disc because of capacity, but because of perceived value. Studios have polled thousands...most people believe they are getting "more" even if they can have it all on one disc with no loss in quality. The people want their "extras" on an "extra".

Easier to manufacture...sure at HD DVD's launch, before Blu-ray disc plants had facilities. Not one company complains of BD being "harder to manufacture" today.

What BD player can't play discs released today? Non profile 1.1 and 2.0 players can't play the additional 1.1 or 2.0 feature on the disc, but they still play the disc itself. Fact is, there are far more reports of HD DVD discs not playing in 360 add ons then there are of BD's in all stand alone and PS3's. I'd have guessed it was my add on, but many others experienced the same, with firmware updates for the Tosh's as well.

The merits of HD DVD in lower cost players (brought on by Toshiba subsidizing what they could not afford to, and no other manufacturer can nor was willing to do), lower cost of pressing discs, (negated by the Combo discs as well as MSRP's by the studios...check prices...they didn't pass on any savings to the consumer, in fact, HD DVD's are regularly priced higher in stores).

HD DVD has "finalized" specs, but the early and "entry level" players were never "finalized". Some early and entry level players only output in 1080i, they also boast no way to support the planned HD DVD managed copy that was a future selling point(of which Microsoft pushed and pushed as a feature that everyone on AVS forum loved...it of course never happened in time). Nor did anyone truly know if HD DVD recordables would work in any of those HD DVD players out there since it wasn't designed with recording in mind. That would come "later". Sound familiar?

BD's have access to the menu while the disc is playing. From the very first players. What you mistakenly might be thinking of is the PIP 1.1 profile you mentioned. DVD had the same "faults". No DVD-R or +R or RW playback. No MP3 CD's. No progressive scan. No DTS decoding. Fact of life.

HD DVD had their chance but ,whatever advantages they "had" were timed advantages until Blu-ray caught up and surpassed. And, as predicted, the BDA has done that.

My point is that the points you provided as ammo against a BD fanboy are blanks. There are better points to be brought up, ones that are still vaild today. Somewhat.

Out of curiousity...do you have a BD Player? Many of your points you brought up, would be plain to see had you played a disc. If you have both, one can see both the pros and cons. But your cons about BD are old ones that either no longer apply or aren't true. And the things I just brought up, Danguard Ace brought up before, the difference was that I said you were wrong and somehow, that must have rubbed you wrong since you had prety much agreed with what DA had pointed out. Sorry if it seemed personal, it wasn't.

A good argument against a Blu-ray fanboy if you want one is to just point at Michael Bay. Man doesn't know what he's talking about on the tech side, but oh well.

again, my post was meant to be a RHETORICAL answer to a RHETORICAL PRO BD POST.

And whether or not companies capitalized on the technical advantages of HD-DVD has NOTHING to do with whether or not those advantages exist. You can continue arguing that those advantages don't matter now and I agree with you, the marketplace is obviously siding with BD and it doesn't matter now in terms of how the war is going to turn out. But if you actually READ and COMPREHEND what I wrote I never said that those were reasons why HD-DVD would win. I was LAMENTING that consumers would rather choose an unfinished and DRM bloated format over one that is more consumer friendly.

Reading comprehension my friend, try it.

As for entry level players not playing 1080p... gosh, that's why it's called ENTRY LEVEL. That's like saying HD is not a complete standard because some TVs can't do better than 720.

HD-DVD players not able to play back RW HD-DVD? Gosh, I guess that would matter if movie studios released their movies on RW discs... but they don't.

BD player that can't handle 1.1? Gee... I dunno, how about the samsung BD P1400?

AVC versus VC-1. AGAIN, look at Flag of our Fathers, virtually identical IQ yet one is 12 GIGS larger than the other. Looks the same but one is 1/3rd bigger? that's called BLOATED.

You keep throwing out these red herrings, but you keep missing the point of my post. Please do me a favor and look up the word rhetorical. That's what jwinges post was and that's what I my retort was.

The ways in which HD-DVD are myriad. As JSArclight pointed out, they could have released their AAA library instead of releasing a bunch of near hits.They could have passed the manufacturing savings down to the consumers. They could have given their combo discs the SE treatment, so that DVD owners had more of a reason to dole out 30 bucks. They could have bothered to properly calibrate their demo kiosks so that the TVs didn't have their sharpness settings turned to maximum and the image didn't look like a pixelated mess.

Edited January 10, 2008 by eugimon

[VT 1010]

Nevermind about Predator.

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Fox...or_Blu-ray/1355

Fox Preps 'Predator' Blu-ray

Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 03:00 PM ET

Tags: Disc Announcements, Fox (all tags)

In an early announce to retailers, Fox has set an April Blu-ray debut for the Arnold Schwarzenegger classic 'Predator.'

One of the "monster" franchises of the '80s (along with the 'Alien' series), the original 'Predator' has long been on the wishlish of early adopters for high-def release. Now Fox has heeded the call to hunt, setting an April 15 street date for the Blu-ray.

With a full press announcement still due in the coming days, there are no supplemental details yet available, but we'll keep you posted.

Tech specs are set to include 1080p video and audio flavors in DTS-HD Lossless Master Audio 5.1 Surround and Dolby Digital 4.0 Surround, plus a French Dolby Digital 2.0 Stereo dub.

Retail for the Blu-ray is $39.98.

They announced Predator on Blu-ray at last year's CES for May 2007. I'll believe it, when I see it. I think the French release had an MPEG-2 encode on a BD-25, too. Of course, I'll buy it anyway.

Now, where are the Alien movies?!

[Gaijin]

again, my post was meant to be a RHETORICAL answer to a RHETORICAL PRO BD POST.

And whether or not companies capitalized on the technical advantages of HD-DVD has NOTHING to do with whether or not those advantages exist. You can continue arguing that those advantages don't matter now and I agree with you, the marketplace is obviously siding with BD and it doesn't matter now in terms of how the war is going to turn out. But if you actually READ and COMPREHEND what I wrote I never said that those were reasons why HD-DVD would win. I was LAMENTING that consumers would rather choose an unfinished and DRM bloated format over one that is more consumer friendly.

Reading comprehension my friend, try it.

As for entry level players not playing 1080p... gosh, that's why it's called ENTRY LEVEL. That's like saying HD is not a complete standard because some TVs can't do better than 720.

HD-DVD players not able to play back RW HD-DVD? Gosh, I guess that would matter if movie studios released their movies on RW discs... but they don't.

BD player that can't handle 1.1? Gee... I dunno, how about the samsung BD P1400?

AVC versus VC-1. AGAIN, look at Flag of our Fathers, virtually identical IQ yet one is 12 GIGS larger than the other. Looks the same but one is 1/3rd bigger? that's called BLOATED.

You keep throwing out these red herrings, but you keep missing the point of my post. Please do me a favor and look up the word rhetorical. That's what jwinges post was and that's what I my retort was.

The ways in which HD-DVD are myriad. As JSArclight pointed out, they could have released their AAA library instead of releasing a bunch of near hits.They could have passed the manufacturing savings down to the consumers. They could have given their combo discs the SE treatment, so that DVD owners had more of a reason to dole out 30 bucks. They could have bothered to properly calibrate their demo kiosks so that the TVs didn't have their sharpness settings turned to maximum and the image didn't look like a pixelated mess.

Rhetorical? Yes, that post to jwinges was. The others after : not so much. Relax!

Edited January 10, 2008 by Gaijin

[Gaijin]

You've mentioned that before. I'm curious, who is "we"? Who/where do you work? You don't have to answer if you don't want to, I'm just curious. I've been selling tech at retail since 1998, and I'm looking to move to the other side of the industry.

That's probably true. I got the feeling, though, that a lot of studios, even while supporting both formats, were always more interested in Blu-ray. At this point, I really don't care who wins; I've got 17 Blu-rays and 2 HD-DVDs on my shelf (one of which I only bought because it was on clearance at a Target for $4.50). But I still can't shake the feeling that the studios, not the consumers, decided this war. And I do have to question if what's good for the studio is good for the consumer.

Good "point", but having the "choice" in a war that is bordering on niche did no one any favors. Had HD DVD did what BD did, in the beginning, I would have felt the same way.

[eugimon]

Rhetorical? Yes, that post to jwinges was. The others after : not so much. Relax!

dude, just admit it. You completely misread the intent of my post and then you called me a liar. A liar when I have clear examples to back up everything I said.

Anyways...

Universal is denying rumors they're dropping HD-DVD: http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/10/univers...-the-hd-dvd-fo/

... for now. I wish Universal and Paramount would stop being coy about this.

[Gaijin]

dude, just admit it. You completely misread the intent of my post and then you called me a liar. A liar when I have clear examples to back up everything I said.

Because many of your "examples" are untrue or made without firsthand knowledge and are myths . A spade is a spade. That said, I'm dropping it. You can even have the last word.

Regarding Universal and Paramount. They are still supporting HD DVD. And will until they can make official announcements regarding it otherwise. Retailers are already closing the door on it, so it won't be much longer before it all goes public.

Edited January 11, 2008 by Gaijin

[mikeszekely]

Good "point", but having the "choice" in a war that is bordering on niche did no one any favors. Had HD DVD did what BD did, in the beginning, I would have felt the same way.

Well, if the studios were all coming out for HD-DVD when there seemed to be a lot of consumer interest in Blu-ray, I'm sure I'd be suspicious of HD-DVD. But you're absolutely right, if there on was one format, we'd all embrace it and just go back to complaining about DRM in general.

Like I said, my HD-DVD collection never really took off anyway. I'm leaning toward selling my HD-DVD stuff anyway and just replacing my discs with inevitable Blu-ray equivalents, rather than stock up on clearance HD-DVDs.

And hey, maybe a Blu-ray release of Serenity will have a better transfer and the extras from the collector's edition DVD. It sucks when regular DVDs get better stuff than the HD releases.

[DJ Loe Kee]

If you wanted storage space, you can wait for Holographic Versatile Disc (HVD) which can hold up to 3.9 terabytes (TB) of information

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_Versatile_Disc

dang, those are nice. the price just needs to come down. the last time i price checked a pc blu ray burner, it was still $1000.

Edited January 11, 2008 by DJ Loe Kee

[Gunbuster]

dang, those are nice. the price just needs to come down. the last time i price checked a pc blu ray burner, it was still $1000.

here's a 2X blu-ray burner for $439 ;-)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx...N82E16827248005

[Zinjo]

The Blu-ray camp are seriously considering giving HD-DVD adopters "deals" of some sort to soften the blow of the end of the format war.

Even Microsoft is beginning to back away from HDDVD and now talking about HD direct downloads to the Xbox360, which is where their bread an butter has always been.

[eugimon]

The Blu-ray camp are seriously considering giving HD-DVD adopters "deals" of some sort to soften the blow of the end of the format war.

Even Microsoft is beginning to back away from HDDVD and now talking about HD direct downloads to the Xbox360, which is where their bread an butter has always been.

It would be nice if they would do some sort of trade in your old crap for new shiny deal.

And MS and their direct downloads can kiss my ass. If they really wanted people to adopt their licensing scheme, they could at least sell their HDD upgrades for something reasonable.

[Nied]

Well, if the studios were all coming out for HD-DVD when there seemed to be a lot of consumer interest in Blu-ray, I'm sure I'd be suspicious of HD-DVD. But you're absolutely right, if there on was one format, we'd all embrace it and just go back to complaining about DRM in general.

Like I said, my HD-DVD collection never really took off anyway. I'm leaning toward selling my HD-DVD stuff anyway and just replacing my discs with inevitable Blu-ray equivalents, rather than stock up on clearance HD-DVDs.

And hey, maybe a Blu-ray release of Serenity will have a better transfer and the extras from the collector's edition DVD. It sucks when regular DVDs get better stuff than the HD releases.

Oddly enough the opposite was the case for me, other than the Pirates of the Caribbean movies and Pixar's catalog all the movies I've been interested in have come out on HD-DVD or both formats (Matrix, Batman, Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, Army of Darkness, The Big Lebowski, most of Stanley Kubrick's catalog).

Whatever, I'm still planning on picking up a dual format player, and if HD-DVD really does die I can grab those titles at fire sale prices!

[mikeszekely]

Oddly enough the opposite was the case for me, other than the Pirates of the Caribbean movies and Pixar's catalog all the movies I've been interested in have come out on HD-DVD or both formats (Matrix, Batman, Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, Army of Darkness, The Big Lebowski, most of Stanley Kubrick's catalog).

Whatever, I'm still planning on picking up a dual format player, and if HD-DVD really does die I can grab those titles at fire sale prices!

It's not that HD-DVDs have never interested me. I wanted to pick up the Matrix Trilogy, Batman, Shaun of the Dead, etc, but never got around to it, because I didn't buy the 360 HD-DVD attachment until I found a used one cheap at Gamestop after Transformers was released. Meanwhile, I bought a 60GB PS3 right after they announced the 80GB units, figuring that the price drop was more of a clearance on the older models than a genuine price drop. Since then, I picked up the first two Pirates, the Spider-Man Trilogy, the Ultimate Avengers double feature, the rest of the Marvel Comics movies that came out since X3, as well as movies that were on both formats like TMNT, 300, Last Samurai, etc.

Actually, there's a pair of stores around where I live that sell used Blu-rays and HD-DVDs for $15 a piece. When I only had a PS3, it always seemed like they didn't have anything but crap for Blu-ray, but I could always find an HD-DVD I wanted. After I bought my 360 add-on, they just never have anything but crap.

[eugimon]

WB is delaying their HD-DVD releases by three weeks after the BD versions get released. http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/01/11/warne...dela/1#c9788992

Consumers win again? If WB feels that consumers have chosen, then I think they should just release all remaining HD-DVD shows now and have a giant firesale. What's the point in draging this out any longer?

[bandit29]

Another Blu-ray sale at Amazon

here

[Dangard Ace]

WB is delaying their HD-DVD releases by three weeks after the BD versions get released. http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/01/11/warne...dela/1#c9788992

Consumers win again? If WB feels that consumers have chosen, then I think they should just release all remaining HD-DVD shows now and have a giant firesale. What's the point in draging this out any longer?

Why actively promote HD DVD when they've already gone public in backing Bluray? IMO the only reason they're even slowly releasing HD DVDs now is so they won't get sued for any possible breach of contract they had(until end of May) with the HD DVD group.

Another Blu-ray sale at Amazon

here

Thanks. I just spent another $100 at Amazon. (shakes fist).

[Nied]

Why actively promote HD DVD when they've already gone public in backing Bluray? IMO the only reason they're even slowly releasing HD DVDs now is so they won't get sued for any possible breach of contract they had(until end of May) with the HD DVD group.

No need to actively promote HD-DVD, but why actively sabotage it (as they are doing) if they're so certain that consumers have clearly chosen Blu-Ray?

[Dangard Ace]

No need to actively promote HD-DVD, but why actively sabotage it (as they are doing) if they're so certain that consumers have clearly chosen Blu-Ray?

It's no longer in WB best interests to release their movies on two competing formats simultaneously. For example: average consumer, who knows nothing about HD or formats wars, goes into a store to buy an HD player and HDTV to play one of their newly released movies. By chance they encounter an HD DVD diehard employee who recommends an HD DVD player for that movie. The customer goes home and is happy with his purchase until June. When he goes back to XXX store he finds out that the next WB movie he wants is no longer available in the format he just invested in. He's now angry that WB was still releasing simultaneous formats when they knew they would be dropping one format. IMO this is why they don't release simultaneously anymore. The fact that they're willing to release the movies 3 weeks later is to appease their HD DVD invested fans for the next six months and to ease their transition over to Bluray.

[Nied]

It's no longer in WB best interests to release their movies on two competing formats simultaneously. For example: average consumer, who knows nothing about HD or formats wars, goes into a store to buy an HD player and HDTV to play one of their newly released movies. By chance they encounter an HD DVD diehard employee who recommends an HD DVD player for that movie. The customer goes home and is happy with his purchase until June. When he goes back to XXX store he finds out that the next WB movie he wants is no longer available in the format he just invested in. He's now angry that WB was still releasing simultaneous formats when they knew they would be dropping one format. IMO this is why they don't release simultaneously anymore. The fact that they're willing to release the movies 3 weeks later is to appease their HD DVD invested fans for the next six months and to ease their transition over to Bluray.

So WB can't do simultaneous release because some clerk at Best Buy could ruin their entire business strategy? Riiiiight.

The simple fact is that if BD really is the clear choice of consumers as WB has been saying then there really wouldn't be any issue with simultaneous release, buyers would be buying Blu and HD-DVD would be going into the bargain bin. Instead WB chose Blu-Ray for the consumer and to enforce that decision they've got to discourage buyers from purchasing HD-DVD.

Edited January 13, 2008 by Nied

[Dangard Ace]

So WB can't do simultaneous release because some clerk at Best Buy could ruin thier entire business strategy?

I'm sorry but that's about the worst argument I've ever heard. The simple fact is that if BD really is the clear choice of consumers as WB has been saying then there really wouldn't be any issue with simultaneous release, buyers would be buying Blu and HD-DVD would be going into the bargain bin. That's not the case, WB chose Blu-Ray for the consumer and to enforce that decision they've got to discourage buyers from purchasing HD-DVD.

Way to misread my post. Gold star. Won't because it makes no sense for them to do so. They're going Bluray, are under contract to support HD DVD until May 2007 and will do so but not in a way that will promote it. They no longer have a vested interest in HD DVD so will do the minimum allowed to complete their contract while promoting their day-and-date Bluray releases. Sure this screws over the current owners of HD DVD players but WB chose Bluray as the format that has the best chance to grow HDM into a mainstream product. ONE format can do this easier then two. Bluray was chosen as that format.

I take it you have an HD DVD player and are pissed off at WB for choosing Bluray. Most HD DVD-pro fans argue that WB should remain neutral and let the consumers decide. Well guess what WB, the last major neutral studio, stated that that they would make a decision to go with one format at the end of 2007 Q4 or 2008 Q1 after the holidays. Well consumers voted with their wallets and the results were not in favor of HD DVD. I'm sure if the market said HD DVD would win they'd have gone HD DVD and we'd be hearing the exact same argument except from the BD side.

Or we can argue that WB got paid out to go Blu. Not substantiated since the head of WB denies it and no outside source has yet to verify the payout. Paramount who went HD DVD though got paid out. There were links within days of that news from NYT or Businessweek quoting insider/high level management sources screaming about the payout(can't remember which but it'd be easy to google). Consumers didn't get a choice from Paramount at all. I'm still pissed I had to get an HD-D3 just to watch Transformers, which they pulled the BD HiDef version just days before release. I guess that payoff they received back then worked.

How about a post from a HighDefDigest thread? They've got a better salesperson example then I did.

Originally Posted by weaponX6282

My guess is they are delaying the HD DVD's so that people will notice that their Blu-rays are day and date. The public may be aware of them going blu, thus, releasing both formats at the same time day and date with the DVD may confuse some customers.

That's exactly what I was thinking when I read the story.

Consumer: "Hey, where is ______ on HD DVD?

Salesman: "It's scheduled to come out in about a month."

Consumer: "Why is that?"

Salesman: "Warner Bros. dropped HD DVD and went Blu-ray exclusive."

It's a one-two punch. Blu-ray gets a head start, and consumers (who are unaware) will become informed of Warner's dropping of HD DVD once they ask the sales clerk.

Also, they keep in line with their contract - still releasing the movies. (I doubt the contract said they had to be day and date with DVD or Blu-rays).

It's a very sneaky and underhanded way of cutting out HD DVDs feet. It is no more underhanded than not providing lossless audio on most Blu-rays early on. It wasn't until 300 on Blu-ray that they started providing lossless audio tracks on all Blu-rays.

You all may not have seen Warner's true colors before, but when they are against you, they have no problem pulling off shady techniques.

(And it's still better than Paramounts handling of the Blu-ray discs which they simply took back days before the release.)

[the white drew carey]

So WB can't do simultaneous release because some clerk at Best Buy could ruin their entire business strategy? Riiiiight.

I hate to say it Nied, but it seems you're being intentionally obtuse for the sake of making a smarmy statement. Dangard's theory is more plausible than most I've read in this thread. Why bash it with an inane comment like that?

[JsARCLIGHT]

Flipping through the new Best Buy ad this morning it seems they are still hawking a HD DVD player (with SEVEN free HD DVDs!) big as ever. If the "war" is over it seems nobody told Best Buy... and to a good degree I doubt anyone at Best Buy CAN tell you the war is over. I have only very rarely been to a retail store that has product on the shelf that they will intentionally NOT sell you. I bet if you walked up to a blue shirt and asked them what to buy they will sell you whatever is on their shelf... and if one of their supervisors heard them telling you "You don't want to buy this because it will be defunct in a year" I bet they'd get pulled aside after you left and told "shut up, just sell it". You can't trust someone who's job it is to get you to buy something... anything.

Plus all this talk about how HD DVD is "dead" and "the war is over" is still premature. It may be a foregone conclusion at this stage of the game, but the war isn't over until the Allies take Berlin... and as we all know it took them months to do that long after they said the war was "going to be over any day now". I fully expect HD DVD to be around even until next Christmas. Admittedly it will probably be in discount bins by then but it will still be around. Hell, UMD is dead as the dodo but you can STILL buy UMD movies everywhere and they are still shelved at retail joints.

[eugimon]

Huh, I guess more people are telling 'lies' about BD. Some people appear not happy that early BD players can't properly play 1.1 or 2.0 version BD discs:

http://www.betanews.com/article/Bluray_Ear...into/1199841379

Hopefully some BD enthusiasts can email these poor saps and just tell them they're the victim of lies and just lack first hand knowledge.

[the white drew carey]

Flipping through the new Best Buy ad this morning it seems they are still hawking a HD DVD player (with SEVEN free HD DVDs!) big as ever. If the "war" is over it seems nobody told Best Buy... and to a good degree I doubt anyone at Best Buy CAN tell you the war is over. I have only very rarely been to a retail store that has product on the shelf that they will intentionally NOT sell you. I bet if you walked up to a blue shirt and asked them what to buy they will sell you whatever is on their shelf... and if one of their supervisors heard them telling you "You don't want to buy this because it will be defunct in a year" I bet they'd get pulled aside after you left and told "shut up, just sell it". You can't trust someone who's job it is to get you to buy something... anything.

Plus all this talk about how HD DVD is "dead" and "the war is over" is still premature. It may be a foregone conclusion at this stage of the game, but the war isn't over until the Allies take Berlin... and as we all know it took them months to do that long after they said the war was "going to be over any day now". I fully expect HD DVD to be around even until next Christmas. Admittedly it will probably be in discount bins by then but it will still be around. Hell, UMD is dead as the dodo but you can STILL buy UMD movies everywhere and they are still shelved at retail joints.

While I agree the war is not over, I'd have to disagree with your assessment of Best Buy's reasoning here- I've worked there once myself way back when and Best Buy is notorious for dumping stock when something doesn't pan out. Just cut their losses and run. That seems to be what they're doing here, IMO.

I do agree, though, that they won't tell the consumer of the status of the HD war if the buyer is oblivious.

Edited January 13, 2008 by the white drew carey

[JsARCLIGHT]

Oh I agree... I just believe that much like the studios, major retailers like Best Buy have also signed "push contracts" with the different formats and the companies that back them and they will be advertising HD DVD and it's hardware for a while yet, even as it's sails sink beneath the waves. For major retail to suddenly start marking down HD DVD movies and players IMHO would spark simultaneously a "run" on the format (all the bargain hunters) and a "flee" of the format (everyone else).

The second things go "clearance" the consumer knows it's "over". Retailers would be wise to not mark things down just yet lest they prematurely kill an already dying animal.