VF-19 fleet uses

[Max is a Genius]

I'm sorry if that has been asked already, I tried to search for the answer to my question but couldn't find it.

Has anyone estimated or has been stated officaly or semi-officialy about what year the VF-19 is going to start replacing the VF-11 as main fighter for the UNAF and UNS ?

thanx

[Mr March]

The UNAF/UNS officially made the decision to adopt the VF-19 in 2041. Other than that, I'm not aware of any other canon dates.

The year 2041 is almost a full year after the end of Macross Plus, so I'd say it's safe to assume that mass production began either before the official decision from the UNAF/UNS or on that date.

[Max is a Genius]

Hmm but then why the M7 fleet wasn't using it in 2045 except for 3 unit assigned to Emerald Force and only mid serie (Ep 20 or something).

[sketchley]

Simple: Macross 7 and Macross Plus were running at the same time. If they had the M7 Fleet VFs composed of VF-19, it'd take (one part of) the mystery out of Macross Plus.

In universe, I believe the explanations are: the VF-11 worked fine, and until they met the Varuta, there was no need to change all of the VFs in the fleet to the VF-19. I believe the M7 fleet was also launched before the year that Macross Plus takes place.

[eugimon]

also, even if a new fighter is commisioned to replace the current fighter, it's going to take a while to actually phase in the new design. Real world example: super hornet/hornet replacing the tomcat. It still took a while to make them and train the pilots. It wasn't like they just swapped out the planes over night.

[Mr March]

Hmm but then why the M7 fleet wasn't using it in 2045 except for 3 unit assigned to Emerald Force and only mid serie (Ep 20 or something).

The 37th long-distance colonization fleet lead by the Macross 7 was launched before the events of Macross Plus, but I would think the Mac7 fleet's distance wasthe biggest factor. As a fringe fleet far from the UNG's core sphere of influence, it's reasonable that the Macross 7 fleet only started using mass produced VF-19's many years after the craft was formerly adopted. I mean, it's not like the Macross 7 fleet would be the first detachment to get the new VFs.

Edited July 14, 2007 by Mr March

[azrael]

It boils down to deployment and necessity. Irregardless of when M7 launched, the designs could be sent to the M7 fleet at anytime. Deployment of the VF-19 would start with priority assignments first. If your fleet hasn't run into any real threats, then you are not a priority. Which brings us to necessity. The M7 fleet spent almost 8 years in travel without running into any real threats. So there was no need to get the good stuff. If it ain't broke, don't fix it or buy something new. They also had VF-17s in stock, which are just as capable as VF-19s so again, there wasn't a need for a VF-19. It wasn't until they ran into the Varauta army that the need was there.

[Max is a Genius]

Ok but that might apply to a real world situation where economy does join the game of renewing a fleet. All colony ships go around with few 3 Star ships which are basicaly flying automated contruction yards. Those ships could replace VFs without anyone really notice, changing the whole load of a fleet in few months.

Beside, imo, change the core fighters when you face the enemy isn't really save =P

[eugimon]

Ok but that might apply to a real world situation where economy does join the game of renewing a fleet. All colony ships go around with few 3 Star ships which are basicaly flying automated contruction yards. Those ships could replace VFs without anyone really notice, changing the whole load of a fleet in few months.

Beside, imo, change the core fighters when you face the enemy isn't really save =P

even giant space factories take time to build things, it takes time to train or retrain pilots, and even if they have those giant factories, raw resources are still limited.

[sketchley]

even giant space factories take time to build things, it takes time to train or retrain pilots, and even if they have those giant factories, raw resources are still limited.

Agreed, and that's only if the ships aren't being used to do something else. If I'm not mistaken, attachments to the colony ship were built to expand the available space for the residents (populations tend to grow and need more living space,) not to mention the general repair and replacement of parts in the ships and vehicles in the fleet.

[azrael]

Agreed, and that's only if the ships aren't being used to do something else. If I'm not mistaken, attachments to the colony ship were built to expand the available space for the residents (populations tend to grow and need more living space,) not to mention the general repair and replacement of parts in the ships and vehicles in the fleet.

Agreed. Factory ships aren't just there to produce VFs. They have to maintain and service the entire fleet.

[Valkyrie addict]

wasn't it explained also that the VF-19 was still a tad difficult to mass produced since it had top of the line technology and certain redesign aspects or something due to it still being new and was only being assigned to elite squadron as neccesity while they got mass produced for the rest of the fleet...

[Max is a Genius]

That whould make sense, but what about the few latest fleets like macross 11-15 that where launched after the VF-19 was approved as new main variable fighter, whouldn't those fleets have the 19 already ? what whould be the point in build a fleet from scratches and equip it with fighters already out of date ?

Note, I haven't played any of the VF-X games where, from what I understand, you face M13 which has been hijacket (how lol ??). Maybe it has been stated or something there, I don't know.

[Noyhauser]

That whould make sense, but what about the few latest fleets like macross 11-15 that where launched after the VF-19 was approved as new main variable fighter, whouldn't those fleets have the 19 already ? what whould be the point in build a fleet from scratches and equip it with fighters already out of date ?

Note, I haven't played any of the VF-X games where, from what I understand, you face M13 which has been hijacket (how lol ??). Maybe it has been stated or something there, I don't know.

Probably not. What you're not getting is cost.

By 2040 we see a UN Sphere that is not firing on all cylinders economically, where you have serious rebellions among colonies, which was the primary reason for project supernova. It means that while a new fighter is needed for attacking key targets precisely without causing massive casualties that would occur if they used reaction weaponry. That meant that the main threat for UN Spacy was a massive Zentredi incursion, like boddol's main fleet. And it was made particularly apparent that the VF-11 is generally good enough against regular Zentredi units.

In reality cost, is a major factor preventing the wholescale adoption of the project supernova fighters. The YF-21, likely a better fighter than the YF-19, was not accepted partially because of its prohibitive cost. In the year they fought against the Vartua, a very large threat to the UN Spacy, the Macross 7 fleet produced a total of five advanced fighters, three VF-19S and two VF-22As. They did not replace the VF-11s destroyed in combat with those fighters, which tells you that the VF-19 type fighters are far too expensive for general use. What is more effective? 20 fighters that are good enough or 3 fighters that are waaay better than all of the others. Why don't we equip all our squadrons today with F-22s? Why are we developing F-35s which are inferior to the F-22 in almost every way? Why are our airforces made up mostly of F-16s and not F-15s? Because of cost. We've seen this already in macross, the VF-5000 became the replacement to the VF-1, rather than the VF-4.

So no. VF-19s/VF-22s probably would remain a specialty fighter. More likely what would occur is that a more direct

[Max is a Genius]

Hmm I guess I'm missing some important part of the history. I tried to find out more of the macross history but the macross compendium just state dates of event. Can anyone point me to a good side with recaps of the history ?

[eugimon]

Hmm I guess I'm missing some important part of the history. I tried to find out more of the macross history but the macross compendium just state dates of event. Can anyone point me to a good side with recaps of the history ?

yeah, there is a wierd lag in the deployment of the VF-19, it becomes the mainline fighter in 2041, but M7 takes place 4 years later and the VF-19 only shows up at the end. Maybe the lag was due to the change in the VF-19 design from the A to the F/P/S design shown in M7. Macross Plus does imply that the YF-19 was very difficult to fly, so maybe ordinary (compared to isamu) pilots had a tough time with the A type (production model of yf-19) and it took a few years to figure out an easier flight dynamic?

Maybe Mr. March can answer it better for us?

Edited July 15, 2007 by eugimon

[Garrick]

I personally think that it was just because of costs and "if it's not broken don't fix it" mentality with existing fleets. Even the Galaxy Patrol fleet preferred to fir its VF-11s with missile bays in 2050. Probably it was just so costly that it never ended up being really mass produced

[Mr March]

Maybe Mr. March can answer it better for us?

Sorry to disappoint, but not really. I rely solely upon the anime and the official statistics for the subject matter in the M3. Any of those interesting gaps in between I can't really fill in that much except to say what probably didn't happen

I can say with certainty that the YF-19 was a difficult fighter to operate during it's development. Shinsei went through seven test pilots (Isamu being number 7), so the learning curve was quite high and took some time. Whether these problems controlling the YF-19 were eventually solved or persisted into mass production of the VF-19 is not known.

Personally, the lag time can be attributed to any of the very good answers many here have already provided, including myself. It's certainly not a leap (using the real military as a benchmark) to assume that logistics and requisitions/procurements as well as cost, distance and time would be significant factors in the deployment of any new military materiel. A question like this would certainly not have any easy answer.

[David Hingtgen]

The YF-22 vs YF-23 competition took place in 1990-91. The F-22 was picked as the winner in 1991. We now have 1 wing in front-line service, with the 2nd coming soon. So 16 years from selection to in-service.

And, while the F-22 was supposed to replace the F-15, due to cost cuts etc, very few will be built, and the F-15 will remain the primary fighter for a long time, with a few upgrades.

I think M7 matches that pretty well. No giant fleets of VF-19's, just a few early ones in service with upgraded VF-11's making up the majority.

[Mr March]

A perfect example. Thanks DH.

[Max is a Genius]

It does make sense but I guess I wasn't clear a few steps back. I'm not refering to why the M7 fleet didn't upgrade, I'm talking about a recently (sort of) deployed fleet like the M11 or M13 which where build from nothing when the VF-19 was already selected.

I'm trying to understand if the UNS whould have a fleet equipped with fighters they have already decided will be changed in a few years time or they'll simply have the VF-19 assigned to those fleets.

I bet, also, that Earth Command got all their fighters upgraded asap =P

[eugimon]

I'm sure Dave can give a better answer, but I would imagine when a new battle group is put together, they transfer existing squadrons as well as form new ones. Also, it seems that the new macross class fleets are launched approximately 1 every year, if we take the launch date of the 1st of the new macross fleets as 2030, and the launch of the M7 as 2038, so by the time the 11 or 13 launched, the date should only be around 2041-2044.

Given that the VF-19 is confirmed as the next main line fighter in 2041, it makes sense that the 11-13 would still have squadrons comprised mainly of VF-11s.

[sketchley]

The VF-X2 game, set in 2050, with the main opponent being people from the UN Spacy itself, has the majority of UN Spacy equipment using opponents in the VF-11. Only one or two had the VF-19, one had the VF-22, and the majority were the (Target) Drone and Ghost X-9 (both from Macross Plus.)

I think it says volumes about the fate of piloted VFs in general in Macross post-2050, but that's an entirely different topic of discussion.

[David Hingtgen]

Plane assignment in a wing for a battle group---well, there hasn't been a new air wing made in decades AFAIK, just reductions. But squadrons are constantly swapped around. In the 70's/80's squadrons often were in semi-permanent pairs, but not not any more. FYI, squadrons are assigned to wings, and wings to battle groups. Nothing's permanent. You can swap out just one squadron in a wing, or swap entire wings between carriers.

As for why not put VF-19's in a presumably new-build M7 fleet? Because the VF-19 was still too new to be in production/service. From the time the YF-22 was selected to the very first test F-22 built was a good 6 years. And 6 years after that for first delivery to the TEST squadrons. Also, despite what the movies show, you do NOT deploy your new, advanced, untested, expensive prototype planes "in the real world" to go do field testing. M7 was sent out with VF-11's because they were readily available, and tested/proven.

(Though based on M0, and even SDF:M, the UN seems to be able to field new valks in a remarkably short time---maybe because all humanity is working together or something, bypassing standard military-industrial complex slowness)

[sketchley]

On that note, I'd like to add that the era that the VF-1 and the VF-19/21/22 were produced in are radically different. The VF-1 needed to be produced in sufficient numbers to fend off an alien invasion as soon as yesterday. The VF-19/21/22 were produced in an era where the authorities could spend the time/money/whatever to finesse the designs to get the most out of it.

In other words, due to the situation, the UN Spacy can afford to wait on releasing the Project Supernova AVF. (In addition to the logisitics, training, difficult to pilot, etc. that's already been mentioned.)

[Mr March]

(Though based on M0, and even SDF:M, the UN seems to be able to field new valks in a remarkably short time---maybe because all humanity is working together or something, bypassing standard military-industrial complex slowness)

I would think the incredible economy and industry of a multi-solar system spanning civilization would indeed possess production capabilities far in excess of what is possible today. For example, the UNG produced 8,245 VF-4 Lightning III variable fighters before production was halted in 2015. By way of comparison, the U.S. Air Force has 7,500 aircraft in total. That gives us some idea how large the UNG was even way back in 2015. By the time the 2030s came around, they had largely developed planets in multiple star systems and dozens of colony fleets.

I always thought it'd be fun to know just how extensive UNG assets were after April 2010 for the various decades up to the Macross Plus/Macross 7 era. Maybe we'll get some more information added to the chronology when Macross 25 comes out.

Edited July 16, 2007 by Mr March

[azrael]

wasn't it explained also that the VF-19 was still a tad difficult to mass produced since it had top of the line technology and certain redesign aspects or something due to it still being new and was only being assigned to elite squadron as neccesity while they got mass produced for the rest of the fleet...

I don't recall this ever being mentioned at all.

I'm not refering to why the M7 fleet didn't upgrade, I'm talking about a recently (sort of) deployed fleet like the M11 or M13 which where build from nothing when the VF-19 was already selected.

Macross 13, IIRC, was being retro-fitted with the Sound Jamming System and was in the dry-dock at Earth. So M13 shouldn't have had any fighters.

[David Hingtgen]

It's not so much raw production speed/capacity of the factories, but complexity/testing of new technology. The more complex they are, the worse it is. Planes are never ever late/delayed because of the factory that's building them. It's always software glitches, unexpected behavior at 600kts, bureacracy, etc.

I imagine a TRANSFORMING plane that is capable of going into SPACE would take forever to test and bring into service.

[Mr March]

Sounds reasonable. But who knows what new scientific understanding was brought about by OverTechnology. Besides, we're talking about a universe in which technology is so advanced that transforming fighter craft are actually practical vehicles to operate, maintain and support. Common wisdom tells us that such a vehicle would never exist because it's technologically, conceptually and logistically prohibitive from our point of view. But obviously this can't be the case in the Macross universe due to factors to which we are not privy.

Edited July 16, 2007 by Mr March

[Noyhauser]

It's not so much raw production speed/capacity of the factories, but complexity/testing of new technology. The more complex they are, the worse it is. Planes are never ever late/delayed because of the factory that's building them. It's always software glitches, unexpected behavior at 600kts, bureacracy, etc.

A little nitpick, thats not *always* true, though I completely agree that it happens far less frequently than delays due to product design. Defence Contractors have to learn how to produce a certain piece of machinery and that process can create delays or unforseen hiccups. Once that process has been learned then full scale production can be achieved. Its also somewhat more difficult to point out when delays or problems during full scale production are due to design or production error. They may take quite some time to manifest, or are blamed on the product design phase.

In reality its actually a bit of a black hole of reporting. Most auditing attention has been paid to problems in technology and product design phases, not the production design, particularly because the problems with the first two phases are usually the ones that cause the most problems. But it does happen. The AESA Array, and the MV-22 program have had problems with production design problems that have held up their full production (in addition to technology and production design problems). [edit- the A-380 is being held up because of a production delay, not one of design or technology. The wiring problem is not a technology or product design problem but one of manufacturing.]

In 2003 the Government Accounting Office introduced a a new best practices scheme for the development of major weapons programs. This assesses all three sections of weapons programs development which I outlined above.

As for the time it would take for a valk's product design phase, I don't think it would be that much longer. Just imagine the computer power, and design techniques that would be available due to overtechology (like what Mr. March discussed). Semi-intelligent AIs could test all aspects of the plane before it was ever built, only reporting problems to a man in the loop when needed. Stuff like that would hurry the design process along substantially.

I would think the incredible economy and industry of a multi-solar system spanning civilization would indeed possess production capabilities far in excess of what is possible today. For example, the UNG produced 8,245 VF-4 Lightning III variable fighters before production was halted in 2015. By way of comparison, the U.S. Air Force has 7,500 aircraft in total. That gives us some idea how large the UNG was even way back in 2015. By the time the 2030s came around, they had largely developed planets in multiple star systems and dozens of colony fleets.

I always thought it'd be fun to know just how extensive UNG assets were after April 2010 for the various decades up to the Macross Plus/Macross 7 era. Maybe we'll get some more information added to the chronology when Macross 25 comes out.

Well I don't think it would differ on the order of magnitudes. First off 99% of UNG production will always come from the factory satellite, which would far oustrip any other means of production the government could create. Thats great for mass producing whole fleets of warships but it doesn't really help the fleets once they are far from the centres of power. Fleets like Macross 7 on the other hand are much more limited in their production capability, taking a year just to produce a single Macross Class battleship with their Three Star Factory ships.

Moreover all this says nothing about maintenance. All your production capabilities don't matter in the least if your fighter is a hangar queen that requires specialized maintenance and a lot of expensive parts. Thats what matters in the end for these fleets.

Given the local limitations of production, I'd say that units like the VF-19 are just too expensive (and specialized) to justify full scale production, and that the VF-11 will remain the main line fighter for some time. If they were so easily produced, the Macross 7 fleet would have replaced their VF-11s with VF-19s as they were destroyed in combat. Instead they continued to rely on the VF-11, and only build 5 more advanced fighters. It tells me that its still more efficient to build and maintain a bunch of the lower quality fighters than one or two superfighters. Since their main threat is still massive numbers of Zentredi units, and so large numbers of cheaper fighters like the VF-11 make more sense.

Edited July 16, 2007 by Noyhauser

[eugimon]

The whole issue of support and logistics is a great point! And I guess even more than training the pilots, training the techs who service the new valks would take a long time as well.

[Zinjo]

There is also the reality that the VF-19 went through a design change from the VF-19A to the F/P/S designs which no longer sported the swing wing capability. That swing wing capability was only kept in the A's and K's and none else.

Now it is possible that the design change delayed the mass production of the VF-19 series fighters or as already stated, the fighter was so complex (particularly when one compares its transformation sequence to most other fighters of the same era) that it became a special ops fighter, similar to the VF-22 as opposed to a line fighter like the VF-11C.

One other thing to consider is that it may have become the front line fighter for the UN Air Force and not the Navy (aka- Spacy), thus any Naval deployments would be limited in number compared to planetary based forces. One could extend that speculation to the UN Marines, but we have no documented evidence (thus far) that the Marines still exist in the mid 21st century... It is also possible that the design change was requested by the Navy for naval deployment and that all UN Air Force VF19's still retain the swing wing for air superiority in atmospheric combat...

I can't see production facilities being that much of an issue, as one must expect that after 30 years of research into the technology of the factory satelite, I find it difficult to believe that they would not have enough accumulated knowledge to be able to build a reverse engineered version of the same facility at least on a small scale to be deployed at colony worlds.

Edited July 16, 2007 by Zinjo

[Mr March]

Well I don't think it would differ on the order of magnitudes. First off 99% of UNG production will always come from the factory satellite, which would far oustrip any other means of production the government could create.

The Factory Satellite is an industrial complex already one order of magnitude greater than that of the whole Earth economy/industry. In UNG hands the Satellite is producing colonization ships far larger than the SDF-1 once per year, while it took the entire world economy of Pre-SWI Earth nearly a decade to rebuild just the SDF-1. By 2040 we're seeing dozens of fleets, including Earth's own defense fleet. Whether UNG industry is 99% supplied by the factory satellite by 2040 or (more likely) largely run by it's own industry, the UNG economy/industry is still at least one order of magnitude beyond our own.

[eugimon]

You know, I often wish that the Macross producers would do little one shot specials, kind of in the vein of the shows on the military channel, but just on our favorite imaginary military. I know it's infinitely geeky, but I would watch.

[azrael]

There is also the reality that the VF-19 went through a design change from the VF-19A to the F/P/S designs which no longer sported the swing wing capability. That swing wing capability was only kept in the A's and K's and none else.

I don't see this design change as much of an issue. Since colonization fleets are capable of producing their own fighters, those fleets could optimize or select a design for their fighters that best suits their needs. In a sense, there's no "bottle-neck" at the distribution point. Production facilities can produce based on their consumer's needs.

Now it is possible that the design change delayed the mass production of the VF-19 series fighters or as already stated, the fighter was so complex (particularly when one compares its transformation sequence to most other fighters of the same era) that it became a special ops fighter, similar to the VF-22 as opposed to a line fighter like the VF-11C.

Again, production at various locations would not stop production. New fighters would not have to be shipped to waiting fleets (except for perhaps front-line units and local governments). So again, we come back to costs. Training, maintanence, testing, etc. All the time spent just to get people to use the product prohibit its distribution.