JB0

Cuz someone forgot to close a tag...Use "Preview post " if you're gonna make a long reply. But, but... I already ran through it. The tags all match.

http://www.anime.net/macross/mecha/united_.../vf1/index.html DESIGN FEATURES: four times the mobility of the Destroid Spartan It's actually "mobility" more than "agility". It makes more sense. I can't find anymore the reference about the agility of the Tomahawk. Maybe it was changed and become unofficial. The Compendium has erased all records of the SV-52, too. Mobility and agility aren't synonomous. That could just mean it can be deployed faster owing to it's fighter mode. Yeah, well they were never intended to be deployed alone. They're always gonna have support when used properly. Which means that if enemy is faster than supports it would easily crush them. I think that's how low tech armies win battles today. And if they can overrun the pack of spartans, tomhawks, phalanxes, conventional vehicles and good ol-fashioned infantry around that Monster, they EARNED the kill. What mechanisms? Fluid pulse actuators inefficient? http://www.ecu.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/new/kick.htm I don't see what that link has to do with anything. What I'm saying is that a Valkyrie's systems aren't optimised because the transformation system adds a lot of loss into the equation. There's tons of couplings, gears, pistons, etc. that don't need to be there in any given mode. The Valk hardware is jack of all trades, master of none. You forget energy converting armor, which triples VF-1's armor up to the tip of fingers. Not spec'ed on VF-1. If we assume the VF-1 has it, we can assume destroids have it. FURTHERMORE, energy shields won't do jack squat for joint strength. It STILL has to be able to support whatever forces it's exerting. Which means joints will still fail, gears will still strip, lines will still burst, etc. when it exceeds the design limits of it's internal structure. Energy shields are only good for actual armor. Even something like Mac+'s pinpoint barrier punch. The barrier floats out ahead of the hand, which protects it from shock. The force of the punch is still transferred somewhere according to the 3rd law of motion. It's just going to the shield disk, which absorbs the shock before the hand ever hits anything. But as far as I know, a pin-point barrier is only good for momentary force, not continuous. And really, force should probably be exerted back to the barrier generator, which is responsible for the creation and location of the barrier disk. As I stated, if we assume the VF-1 has energy armor, we assume the destroids have it. I pulled my missile loadouts from Macross Compendium. I guessed at standard loadout based on what I saw planes carrying most often in SDF Macross(which was NEVER micromissile pods). So? The spartan was BUILT to do such tasks. Close combat is EXPLICITLY STATED in the mech description. Its hands are cited as armament, for Pete's sake! A valk can carry a gun. Big deal. The spartan's got one too, it's just internal. So it's clearly capable of lugging the mass around. Pferde Staerken (PS) means "horse power" in German (measures differ though, like meters and feet). Even watts could express horse power. So that's what that means.Okay... I still maintain that most of that is eaten up in all the additional couplings needed for the transformation mechanism, as well as the jet propulsion. And I would consider foolish send my men without weapons, just to see what they could do. What you say is irrelevant. My original statement was a naked Valk was less well-armed than a naked destroid. Which is still true. But EVEN WITH A COMPLETE STANDARD LOADOUT the VF-1 is less well-armed than most destroids. Correction: robots can't be properly "naked". You could say an armed Destroid is more heavily armed than an unarmed Valkyrie. Can you see what would be the point of it? I thoguht "naked" would be understood to mean "without external attachments". Or it could just mean "without optional packages that are not standard equipment". FAST packs and GBPs are the only way to get a VF-1 armed equal to or better than a destroid. The GBP is, as near as I can tell, the only way to get it equivalent armor. A Valk with the GBP package is essentially a Spartan with less guns and more missiles. May I ask what versatility is lost by having weapons built-in instead of by requiring optional, non-standard expansion packages to add them? Didn't stop anyone from building the monster. It did stop people from building a monster with 178 cm railguns, like the ones SDF-1 has, "just because someone else has it". The monster's guns are still signifigantly longer than it's body, which you stated as the reason a VF-1 would never carry a Monster's railgun. The Monster is essentially a giant shock absorber for the guns. A lightweight vehcile like the Valk would be slung around like a rag doll from recoil. The monster is a full 20 times more massive, and I'd bet the crew STILL feels the kick. Your mass limits what you can field, due to the 3rd law of motion. If you can't absorb the recoil, you can't shoot the gun. Now, don't get me wrong on this: the Monster deserved to be called behemoth for its sheer size, but it is clearly not made for close combat, and the fire rate and turning speed negate any hope against fast moving targets, therefore a Monster wouldn't be useful to fight battle pods. Actually, I recall seeing a Regult destroying a Monster. What's your point? I've already said the Monster is an artillery piece, not a close-combat mech. You're just restating what I already stated. And I recall seing Regults destroy a LOT of Valks. Destroids are cheaper for several reasons, one of that is that the engines are underpowered. Actually, maybe the armor of the VF-1 costs more than that of a Destroid. It could be wrong assume they are made of the same alloys. No one in their right mind would build a battle tank and a jet plane out of the same alloys. Planes, which is clearly what the VF-1 is first and foremost, are made of light materials. Not really armor at all, just a skin to keep everything inside and keep the plane aerodynamic.. Tanks, which is more like the role destroids fill, are built with much heavier, but much stronger, armor. And Destroid engines aren't underpowered. They have no need to go through elaborate transformation mechanisms, so they don't HAVE to be as powerful. Hmm? You give pilots the mech they trained with. If someone was trained for heavy artillery work, they drive a Monster. If they were trained for high-speed dogfights in transformable vehicles, they get Valks. If they were trained for close-in ground combat, they get a Spartan. And best is a situation-specific term. If you need the big guns, your best mech is a Monster. If you need supersonic speed, it's a Valkyrie. You don't drive an Abrams into a situation where you need a Jeep any more than you fly a Raptor into a situation where you need an Abrams. The monster is NOT an anti-ship mech! Agan, document said claim. 17,680 PS translates into about 13 MW (or about 17,438 HP/BHP/SHP). Which DOESN'T directly translate to strength. Valkyries have been proven they can. Only real melee action I ever saw was when they were on Britai's ship. And he beat Hikaru senseless. It's never been shown that a Valk can adequately hold it's own in melee combat. Animation proves you wrong. http://home.primus.ca/~trevor.worthy/macross/mac11.jpg Also, the PPB is not simply a shield. It hurts. I think it is made of superdimensional energy confined in a super magnetic field. Which means what exactly? That's just a bunch of gibberish. It's an energy shield. And that punch, assuming he landed it with the fist, did a LOT of damage to the hand mechanism. And you will note that it failed to pierce said Regult's armor. As near as I can tell, that's still a fully functional mech. Animations says mecha kick with shins, not with feet (there are several examples of this), Thereby losing a fair bit of leverage. Throws are more defensive in my book. And what does a NosGer have to do with ANYTHING? Oh, wait, let me guess... it proves destroids are underpowered because they don't stay magically glued to the ground! Correction: a Valkyrie in Battroid has the same armor of a tank, due to energy converting armor. It is perfectly comparable to a Destroid. Again, a VF-1 is not spec'ed as having energy armor, and if we start putting energy armor on it, we may as well put it on destroids too. I would bet a VF-1 with GBP-1S has more armor than a Spartan. I would bet you're insane.Particularly with the propulsion pack in the back, the missile compartment in the chest, and the naked upper arms. ... Okay, why aren't these quote tags working right?

Well, when I first read it, for a moment I thought you were proposing the should've shot the fishing boat out of the water instead of running over it...

Here's a question I've always been curious about. Can the 20mm Phalanx guns track and fire at slow moving surface craft, or are the purely anti-missile? Graham Given the context of this thread, that sounds positively evil...

Tragically, no. dammit well...could the "morphing" wings be used in the VF-22S if installed? or would you still need the -21's cockpit system to use them? Hypothetically, maybe. You'd need a computer routine to control it, as well as an interface for the system. The software was likely written during the YF-21 testing, so that should just need installation. But the wiring isn't there, unless the VF-22 uses some sort of computer network for operation of peripherals(like ethernet)... which actually isn't a very implausable scenario. But you'd have to replace the entire wing due to materials diffrences. So there's only one major obstale instead of 3. It wasn't just an interface problem or a material problem. http://www.anime.net/macross/mecha/united_...yf21/index.html Cost-wise, the system is just too expensive for mass production. I wasn't going into why it was removed. I was going into what it would take to retrofit the system onto a VF-22.

Correction: König Monster Monster = Destroid. I was still thinking of the original, which DOES still have guns that are signifigantly longer than it's body. I intensely dislike the König and wish it would go away.

The Spartan is 4 times more agile than the Tomahawk. The VF-1 is 16 times more agile than the Tomahawk, and that means it is 4 times more agile than the Spartan. The VF-1 is still the "shiznit". Document this claim. Anyway, the VF-1 vastly outclasses it in its field. That means they are sitting ducks. Yeah, well they were never intended to be deployed alone. They're always gonna have support when used properly. Same concept applies to modern-day hardware like the patriot missile. But horsepowers will still affect movements. A Spartan couldn't lift and throw Zentradi giants like Max did. What also affects things is efficiency of the mechanisms. I can guarantee that a Valkyrie has very inefficient systems. And structural strength. A spartan is built to vastly higher tolerances than a VF-1. IT's heavy and durable, and can very likely support masses that would crush a VF-1 like a pancake. BTW, there ARE NO horsepower stats for a VF-1. That's absurd. A Destroid without ammos can do nothing more than a "naked" Valkyrie could. A Valkyrie can carry up to two times its weight in armaments. A Valkyrie can hold more micro-missiles than a Tomahawk or a Spartan, and it can deliver them in the heat of the fight. Internal weapons on a Spartan(not the most heavily-armed, but perhaps the closest in nature to a Valk): 24 missiles, a "laser gun", a 32mm machine gun, a 180mm grenade launcher, a 12.7 mm machine gun, a flamethrower, 2 anti-aircraft lasers. Internal weapons on a Valkyrie: 1, 2, or 4 anti-aircraft lasers, depending on head type. But hey, I'm in a generous mood, I'll give them the standard issue external gunpod. So that adds a 55mm gattling gun. I might even give them the 12 AMM-1 hybrid guided multipurpose missiles that seem to be the standard loadout in the TV series, though I consider this clothing the Valk. I repeat: A naked destroid is far more heavily armed than a naked Valk. You won't ever see it because the barrel would be several meters longer than the Valkyrie, and it would look ludicrous. Didn't stop anyone from building the monster. I can agree the Monster could be properly called a behemoth. The other destroids are over-rated, though See above. As far as agility goes, Spartan's is still cheap. That's why the VF-1 was reported to cost 20 times more than a Destroid. Yeah. And I'll bet 99% of that went into the transformation mechanisms. Destroids are cheaper largely because they don't transform. Its 5 times greater strength compensate this. Agan, document said claim. And strength only gets you so far. If you can't hold up strucutrally while applying this strength, it's useless. Remember the pinpoint barrier punch in Macross Plus? That isn't just for show. A VF's hands are not meant to be punching other mecha, and serious damage would result, especially with the "rocket punch" effect they were using. The Spartan's hands, by contrast, are big, ugly, and very heavily-built. Perfect for close combat. The feet are even worse. A VF-1's feet double as it's engine exhausts. If a pilot runs around kicking things, he will very soon find himself in a vehicle incapable of returning to fighter or GERWALK modes. A valk is built far more lightly than destroids. This is painfully evident from the plane-first design. They're very thin-skinned, while most destroids are built like, well, tanks. A valk with a GBP-1 has roughly similar armor to a Spartan in several places, I would bet, based on appearance. But it still has weak girly-man hands and feet, as well as the upper arms.

Tragically, no. dammit well...could the "morphing" wings be used in the VF-22S if installed? or would you still need the -21's cockpit system to use them? Hypothetically, maybe. You'd need a computer routine to control it, as well as an interface for the system. The software was likely written during the YF-21 testing, so that should just need installation. But the wiring isn't there, unless the VF-22 uses some sort of computer network for operation of peripherals(like ethernet)... which actually isn't a very implausable scenario. But you'd have to replace the entire wing due to materials diffrences. So there's only one major obstale instead of 3.

Tragically, no.

The YF-21 has two gunpods. Maybe only one was loaded with paintballs. FV Except Guld loaded the live ammo into the YF-19's gunpod.

First, yes it is worth it to have both. I don't really consider either version "complete". And yes, the OVA has a lot more scenes. Unfortunately, since they were essentially extending a movie-length script when they made the OVA, they had to find places to wedge the new scenes. And frankly, while some of them were pretty nice, others cause very serious problems in the narrative. Sure, I can suspend reality enough to allow for transforming jetplanes. But walking away from a serious crash with just a few scrapes, then getting shot later with your own gun because someone loaded paintballs, then blanks, then real bullets so it would look like you were trying to kill him, if he got lucky and you didn't fire through the blanks? They stretch credibility WAY too far with that one. Lucy also comes out as an insane stalker in the OVA. And Isamu takes some crap from Guld that he has no reason whatsoever to sit there listening to. All because they swapped a sex scene for a car chase.

How can you not like it? It's THE ROBOT THAT CHANGES! And it also defends that whole Galaxy! That's pretty amazing. I doubt the VF-17 has the range to cover 100,000 light years! Well, Voltron was Defender of the Universe. So just a galaxy is kinda lame.

How can you not like it? It's THE ROBOT THAT CHANGES!

Destroids are not behemoths. They are severely underpowered (I am talking about power output) compared with VFs and Regults, and their agility sucks. FV That Spartan Hikaru drove in that one episode was agile enough. 'S also one of the few destroids that NEEDS to be particularly agile. Things like the Phalanx, Monster, and Defender don't have much need for fast movement. The power diffrence is, IMO, largely because they don't fly or transform. And a naked destroid tends to pack far heavier weapons and armor than a naked Valkyrie. That's important. You will never see a Valk firing a 30 centimeter railgun because the recoil would rip it apart. By the same token, you will never see a Monster leaping into the middle of a pack of enemies and inflicting pain and suffering on them, because it just can't leap. Well, it might could, but it would almost certainly be seriously damaged on landing. And once it was there, it would be little more than a slow-moving target. It's sole reason for being is to tote those railguns around. It is a long-range artillery piece. Agility is not needed. The Spartan is explicitly designed for melee combat. Agility is needed, and it delivers. The Valk is a jack of all trades. It's fast and nimble enough for melee combat, but lacks enough mass to do a whole lot of damage.

Overtech face cream, of course. Guaranteed to make you look and feel 30 years younger, or your money back. Seriously, I chalk it up to advanced medical techniques. People live longer healthier lives as technology advances. I assume we got some sort of medical advances from the crash of the Macross, instead of just laser guns, origami jets, and walking vending machines.

That quote has just destroyed every last shred of hope for the movie. Think reality? WHAT THE FRICKING HELL KIND OF ATTITUDE IS THAT FOR A MOVIE ABOUT ALIEN ROBOTS THAT TRANSFORM INTO CARS?!?!?!?!

At least Robotech has human characters for the actors... Seriously, on the list of dumb ideas, this ranks up there with the square wheel and the flammable fireplace.

I think we can all agree that tha Valcione is one of the odder mech designs ever. And an armored cannon fodder... Isn't he worried the missiles will go off before he fires them?

Yes. Seriously, the extras are fun to look at sometimes.

It's worth noting that the game tells you what you fly during character select.

No they sucked, GI joe figures put these to shame. The joints on these matchbox figures were horrible. What really bothered me about this line of toys was the scale issue. I'm fine with somethings being out of scale, but just about everything matchbox had was out of scale. Guess I was a hard kid to make happy. I DO admit to wondering as a kid what the heck I was gonna do with a zentradi that was eye-level to Rick Hunter...

It was an animation error that Robotech recently embraced as a "real" mech.

You're so cynical... I suppose next you'll say a 1:1 VF-1J is impractical too. Footnote: A 1:48 Macross would be roughly 83 feet long(or tall, depending on configuration and making assumptions about attack mode dimensions).

Interesting. Now the important question remains... WHO'S PLAYING SUPERMAN?

They should've based the movie on this... http://www.klov.com/game_detail.php?letter=&game_id=8172