Mr March

We'd need statistics on all manner of things to calculate that kind of a comparison and we barely have enough for a thrust-to-weight ratio. I think we're out of luck.

Haven't we been over this before (in the ion drive discussion a while back)? At any rate, I was writing of acceleration as ChronoReverse pointed out, not velocity, which is pretty much pointless in Macross since a) it's space, b) there doesn't appear to be any kind of ordinary conventional limit to the thrust/operating time of a Valkyrie and c) we're dealing with technologies of extreme efficiency unlike our conventional propulsion technologies. Also, we're not talking sustained space flight velocities over lengthy periods of time; these are combat craft where least time to fastest acceleration is the point of design, correct? Regarding the VF-1S Super, yes it has very high thrust, but it also requires very high mass to achieve that acceleration. The acceleration that the VF-25 and VF-27 can accomplish (or the YF-19 for that matter) is done so with the benefit of much less mass than the VF-1.

Your calculations for the earlier variable fighters are off. You should have the following for thrust ratings in kN: VF-1S = 451.26 kN YF-19 = 1,324.35 kN VF-19S = 1,549.0 kN You want to know something about the Valkyries that's really going to bake your noodle? It appears all the Valkyries have "overboost" (VF-17D Nightmare "Overboost" control), not just the VF-1 Valkyrie. That would mean that technically all the engine thrust ratings should be doubled unless otherwise noted (like the Macross Zero mecha). After that, add 2,805.66 kN (VF-1 Super Pack rating) of thrust to each valkyrie... *mind explodes* Pretty scary how fast these Valkyries can fly huh?

Not a bad article. It basically summarizes what we all knew for the last decade, but still, it's an interesting read. I'm not quite as optimistic (punny!) as they are about the new Star Trek, but unlike the new Dune adaptation, these guys are saying all the right things in their interviews. They do appear to properly understood the elements of the original Trek, so that's half the battle. I personally would have went with a longer break before trying to revive the franchise; Trek's lengthy, turbulent downward spiral (to paraphrase Reznor) is almost as legendary as that of Metallica's. But hell, if it worked for Batman, it perhaps it can work for Star Trek.

Glad to hear it's finally coming back. I hope all goes well and eagerly anticipate the new episodes.

I'll see what I can do.

Bad times. Don't let it drag you down; you keep your chin up.

wolfx Well, I'm not sure why Macross Zero was misinterpreted so badly as to imply it was Sara herself that has telekinetic powers. Everything in the M0 anime suggests the Island of Mayan was affected by the "gravity control" of the AFOS and Sara's link to the AFOS was clear. Ergo, the AFOS was making rocks float, not Sara. Macross is definitely a mecha show. But in contrast to something like Neon Genesis Evangelion or Gundam, the mecha are not the focus of the show. In that respect, Macross is somewhat more like Patlabor or Ghost in the Shell; Macross is a fictional universe where mecha exist and the Macross stories focus on characters employed in jobs requiring mecha operation. I'd just say we need to be patient. We'll get more statistics as the Chronicle continues and have more answers. The Chronicle is already embellishing certain aspects of Macross that we never thought would be, so there's more goodies forthcoming. There's too many gaps in official information to say much one way or the other. This Mr. March guy sounds like a real a-hole

I'm scanning some select pages for translation work, but not much more than that. Was there a particular page form a particular issue that you wanted to see?

Basara's songs are Vogon poetry

Well, the difference being that the Protoculture never sublimed into some higher existence. Even if we assume some higher form of being was "in the cards" when Kawamori and Co. wonder to themselves on slow Sunday afternoons, all we do know is the Protoculture was nearly annihilated. What occurred after that is anyone's guess and no Macross show has indicated anything sort of ascendancy. That doesn't discount the possibility, but that's like saying it doesn't discount the possibility they all turned into pink elephants spouting Vogon poetry But like yourself, I do wonder what happened to the Protoculture remnants. Did they survive? They may have, but they may not even be in the Milky Way anymore. It's not like there was much left for them here, except the possibility of running into SA and rogue Zentradi.

Super Dimension Steak Sauce!

I've not read the books, but I know what you mean. I'm not sure that's a correct analogy, since the Protoculture is effectively dead. The official literature does mention survivors on the extreme edge of the old Stellar Empire, but for all intents and purposes there is no "current" contact between humans and the Protoculture. "Contact", such as it is, between humans and the remants of the old Stellar Empire has come from automated technology left behind by the Protoculture (Atlita, Protoculture Temple on Rax, AFOS) or human contact with the enemies of the Protoculture, who have outlived the Protoculture itself. Unless Kawamori pulls the rug out from underneath us, there is currently no surviving "corporeal or sublimed" Protoculture entity/group that is "watching humanity from afar". The relationship is really one of humanity and it's ancestors; the only difference being our archaeologists tend to find a lot more "active" trinkets when we go "digging".

I suppose that's true, but it doesn't make Super Nightmare Plus any less cheesy

I'm only up to issue #6. But I'll the new issues next month. I'm buying them in blocks of 3-4 issues to save on shipping

The VF-25 and VF-27 are definitely in the same class, much like the YF-19 and YF-21 were comparable variable fighters. The VF-27 has slightly better acceleration than the non-Super VF-25, but their performances are definitely in the same realm. I calculated thrust-to-weight ratios a while back and the two latest variable fighters a very close in performance. The two are also quite far beyond last generation Valkyries. Thrust-To-Weight Ratios YF-19 (empty) = 15.43 (atmosphere limitation = 9.26) YF-21 (empty) = 13.65 (atmosphere limitation = 8.19) VF-25F Messiah (empty) = 39.09 VF-27 Lucifer (empty) = 46.48 Thrust Ratings in kgs (to compare to older Macross statistics) VF-25 Messiah 165,138 kg x 2 Total thrust = 330,276 kg VF-27 140,367 kg x 4 Total thrust = 561,468 kg Battroids are obviously capable of flying but at the same time, the fighter mode would obviously be superior. This is why we don't see Battroids flying all that often unless it's in the middile of a furballed dogfight where one pilot is trying to get a leg up on his opponent (punny!) We've discussed the thermonuclear reaction engines before and they sound like they could be either fusion or exotic matter reactors (perhaps anti-matter). They would use some form of reactant like any reactor, but it's clear once the engines are fueled, they can go almost indefinitely. The Valkyries in later Macross productions are shown entering and leaving the atmosphere and still having fuel to dogfight and then fly so more. The official literature does describe reaction engines as "extremely efficient" so it's not surprising. I still think the canopy "shield" makes it quite clear any cockpit in Battrroid mode is likely one of the most protected areas of the Valkyrie.

Not essential, just an awful lot of fun. If one Gundam is 18 meters tall and another is 22 meters tall, it's really fun to know the difference. It's flavor fiction, adding another facet of enjoyment to an anime I like. If I know the lengths of the Macross Valkyries and the heights of the Battroids, I can create comparison pictures that I can share with the other fans. It's all about the fun and more statistics = more fun.

As a tech geek, I’d naturally want more information on Macross rather than less. However, Macross has always been far more character/drama/theme-driven than it is technology-driven. It makes sense that the show wouldn't embellish the fictional technology, especially since the nature of OverTechnology as found alien technology makes it that much more fun and mysterious. The less restrictions on the description of the technology, the more one can play with it. For example, fold technology was never described beyond a few basics and it wasn't until Macross Frontier that the technology actually came to impact the plot. Were Fold technology locked into some exhaustive technical description, Macross fans would have cried bloody murder at Frontier's handling of all these new factors affecting space folds (even more than they already complain) What does irk me about Macross literature (grrrr!) is the lack of a standard amount of technical information for each and every Valkyrie. Okay, so maybe the video game Valkyries aren't as important and leftovers from Bandai's aborted Advanced Valkyrie project don't get the royal treatment. Fair enough; I can live with that. But it's the lack of official statistics for the canon animated Valkyries that bothers me. Once they set the standard with the VF-1, they should have carried it out for at least every animated Valkyrie. If the VF-1 was written with thrust output for the Super Part Boosters, I want thrust output for ALL Super Part Boosters from SDF Macross onward. If the VF-1 is given a caliber for the gun pod, I want to know a caliber for EVERY gun pod until the end of time. If most Battroids are given a height, why not ALL of them? I'd also want "standard T-O weight" and "maximum T-O weight" for absolutely every variable fighter as well as weight for the Super and Armored variants. I find that lack of uniformity annoying. Even Gundam has fallen short over time; Wing was the last time we could compare between the Gundams. It annoys me to no end. The reason for having fictional statistics (beyond grounding the mecha as "real robots") is so fans can compare the various Valkyries against the other. That's the fun, like crossword games and number puzzles. Short the statistics on the Valkyries and we can't compare them. Where's the fun in that?

The VF-19 Excalibur had Super Parts; the big blue Atmosphere ones seen in Macross 7. It's likely the YF-19/YF-21 only used smaller FAST Packs because they were prototypes only. Or it could be because their engines were so advanced, Super parts weren't a priority until years later. The Super systems definitely give far more thrust. What would be the point of those huge boosters on the VF-11 Super, VF-17 Super and VF-25 Super if they didn't add much greater thrust? Besides, we fortunately have the VF-1 Super as a benchmark, which has 46,000kg of thrust on it's own, but 286,000kg of thrust when in Super mode. I'm not sure if the new Super boosters add as much thrust as the old VF-1 parts. The newer packs are smaller and the newer Valkyries already enjoy much greater thrust because they are a) lighter vehicles and b) already have far more powerful engines. Even so, I'd say it's likely the VF-25 Super at least matches or exceeds the VF-27.

It looks like the VF-25 Super Packs have boosters like all the other Super Packs. I don't think they are power generating engines, but they are definitely high performance boosters capable of producing far more thrust than the engines. On the issue of Super Packs, I really wish Kawamori and Co would publish statistics for the Super Packs. We've been without official stats on the Super Parts/Packs for nearly 25 years. Last time we saw statistics for the Super variants was for the VF-1 Valkyrie. Given that the old VF-1 Valkyre Super Boosters added a whopping 120,000 kg of thrust, I'd be really curious to obtain figures for the other sets. The VF-1 super packs boosted the Valkyrie's thrust-to-weight ratio from an already high 2.49 to an amazing 6.36. I'd like to know how the VF-11, VF-17, VF-19 and VF-25 all perform with Super Packs. We know they greatly enhance acceleration, but I want the hard cold figures in my fanboy hands

Hmmm, well most of the Macross names are really no better. VF-1S "Strike Valkyrie" VF-19S "Super Blazer Valkyrie" VF-25F "Super Messiah" VF-171EX "Super Nightmare Plus" Ah, the cheese. Take a big whiff

Not necessarily. Alto's VF-25F lost a leg against the Vajra, but Alto managed to keep fighting in spite of the loss. Twin engine designs are actually fairly robust and have natural redundancy by virtue of their pairing. Losing an engine/leg is never good, but it's clear a Valkyrie can still function effectively on a single engine. But in the case of the VF-27, the statistics confirm it has four main engines, which is definitely less common for a Valkyrie. Like the YF-21, the VF-27 could actually lose both legs and still maintain a fairly impressive level of performance. Keep in mind that once the legs are gone, so is a rather large amount of weight. Though Brera lost a lot of power and thrust by losing a leg, he also lost a lot of weight when the leg was gone, so there was a bit of an upside as well.

The Macross II mecha have some really funky size figures. The Mardook Fleet Base is supposedly only 50 kilometers (grossly undersized IMO) and the Macross cannons are supposedly 4 kilometers (sounds roughly correct). I believe these figures were taken from Entertainment Bible #51. There are few statistics for Macross II anyway and most seem strange to say the least. It doesn't appear as though much thought was put into them.

d3v I guess there's still some small bit of manipulative mechanical magic, even today. Twenty five years ago, it was the infamous "shrinking wings" on the VF-1. Today, it's a few clipping errors on the 3D model of the RVF-25

As long as there is intelligent discourse happening in the same relevant topic (Valkyrie design), what should it matter? Ultimately this is a discussion board and discussion is taking place; all the tangents seem relevant to me. I think we need to all agree (members and staff alike) that as long as the dicussions work, they can continue. When a topic requires moderation, we'll all know it Moral of the story: let's participate or leave well enough alone. Morpheus Actually, the YF-21 had it's legs and arms blasted off, yet kept going. The YF-21/VF-22 Sturmvogel II does have a rather unique design among the Valkyries where the engines are mounted on the rear torso of the Battroid, so removing all it's limbs would not stop it, nor would it remove all it's weapons (remember the head gun). So even an armless/legless YF-21/VF-22 could still fly and fight. Impressive when you think about it Also, keep in mind that all the Valkyries have vernier thrusters and more importantly "auxillary thruster pods" (AKA, "backpack thrusters"). Even if both legs on a Valkyrie were destroyed, it's likely capacitors would keep the variable craft powered for at least a short period of time and the auxillary thruster pods could keep the mecha flying (at the very least, in the vacuum environment of space). The arms are probably the most disposable parts of most variable fighters (like the arms of Hikaru's VF-1S Valkyrie in episode 27 of SDF Macross), but it may be possible to operate a Valkyire to some degree even with both engines/legs removed. Operation could be possible, but definitely wouldn't last long after losing the engines.