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At first I didn't like M7 at all, but after watching the disaster that was Delta, it's been growing on me.

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8 hours ago, JB0 said:

Really, the way music is handled, and the Minmay hero worship, makes most of the animation since then a sequel to DYRL. The original TV series standing at this point is basically "what if Macross took place in a weird parallel universe where music DOESN'T have supernatural properties and Minmay was just a pop star?". 

Not really... songs didn't acquire any kind of supernatural power in Macross until the Macross 7 series, which retroactively established that song energy was there all along even though it had nothing to do with Minmay's achievement in the First Space War.  The impact of Minmay's songs was cultural and psychological in the original Super Dimension Fortress Macross, and it didn't change in Do You Remember Love?... but it had a helping hand in that it was a Protoculture song and triggered some kind of genetic memory of their civilization in the Zentradi and Meltrandi (who, in that version, were genetically-modified Protoculture).

Retroactively establishing that Minmay's songs also contained song energy was kind of an attempt Macross 7 made to keep her relevant after they established that Basara's songs could free people from brainwashing and give space kaiju a nasty headache.  Otherwise Basara would've become the new most-important singer against whom everyone measured themselves.

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On 8/27/2017 at 4:14 PM, Master Dex said:

This is probably one of the most fair rebuttals to Macross 7 I've seen as you have managed to get to the meat of your three major issues (which are actually quite valid) without getting too emotional like many do when complaining the show is too silly or what not. To me Macross 7 introduced a good chunk of the existing Macross lore and without it Frontier would have a lot less to go on very likely. There is a clear progression going on between them all, and having returning characters like Max and Milia help that a lot I think.

I thought so. I mean, it took me 2 or 3 runs through to finally put my finger on it, so I feel that I gave it a pretty fair shake. There are some other minor things, like the quality of the acting that might be a bit off, but I chalked it up to being a 90's anime so I can't judge it by today's standards (considering how much more elevated the art form has become since then). As for being too silly, well, as my dad was fond of reminding me at the time (specifically referring to my love of BattleTech and Gundam), giant robots are silly just in themselves (My father is not open minded about such things, but he was a soldier and a fighter pilot so Warfare and technology was something that needed to be more grounded in reality for him). 

On 8/27/2017 at 4:14 PM, Master Dex said:

I pretty much agree with your three points but I feel like digging into them a bit to flesh out why they happened at all perhaps.

That's completely fair.

On 8/27/2017 at 4:14 PM, Master Dex said:

Firstly, the elephant in the room known as Basara. Yeah, he's kind of an a-hole. Thing is, every time I rewatch this show, I am more and more convinced it only works because he's an a-hole. I think he was deliberately written that way, and if he was a more likeable character most of the plot wouldn't function quite the way it did. Basara can't be denied singing prowess or piloting skill (Gamlin, and even Max gave him some kudos there) but his main job in the narrative is to build up everyone else I think. Gamlin becomes a better pilot trying to keep up with Basara, and even softens his stance on music relative to combat (a lot of this was due to his interest in Mylene of course too). Mylene grows as a singer due to Basara pushing her, often pissing her off in the process. The UN Forces really hate him partly cause he bruises their egos but also he has no respect for them and yet still they relent his method ultimately has some purpose so they create the Jamming Birds (never mind the group was never successful until the very end but they had very little time to skill up). Plus it is clear Basara does care about people... but he goes about it in a rather rude manner, and still focuses on his interests mostly. He was essential to the story... because he's the giant prick they needed, just not the one they deserved, lol. Yeah he probably would have made a better secondary protagonist, but in my opinion Mylene was just as much a lead as he was in the show anyway.

I have no arguments with this. I agree completely.

On 8/27/2017 at 5:11 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

Among western fans, that's so far from atypical that I'd almost call it The Standard Response to Basara Nekki.  The usual (weak) defense of the character's overwhelming flaws is that he was more plot device than protagonist, meant to bring about character development in others rather than develop himself.  Essentially, that he is The Mentor to Mylene and Gamlin, though that's a line of reasoning that doesn't quite work because he's demonstrably the main character.  He's not actually a hero, he's just the Designated Hero.

I get that. I'll chalk it up to cultural differences. I mean, I enjoy M7 in spite of my issues, though not to the degree that I enjoy other Macross Productions. I'd be really interested to see how a Japanese fan would deconstruct Basara's character. 

On 8/27/2017 at 5:11 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

Kiichi Goto from Mobile Police Patlabor basically summed up what's wrong with Basara in one of his rants:
"What do you think you're piloting? Great Mazinger? Dangaioh? For Pete's sake, this isn't some robot cartoon whose main character is an autistic kid or some punk."

Amazing bit of self critique and deconstruction of the overall genre.

 

On 8/27/2017 at 4:14 PM, Master Dex said:

The pacing..... actually there is not much to be said here, it is one of Macross 7's biggest sins. A lot of it is the length of the show of course, which was probably a studio choice rather than a writing choice. The show redone in a 2 cour format likely would be a lot easier to digest, or even in some revision movies like Frontier had. We could even put all the amazing mecha designs into fancy new CGI too perhaps. This is likely never gonna happen so I can dream, lol.

 

On 8/27/2017 at 5:11 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

Well, it was a weekly anime series made on the cheap that veers into tokusatsu territory more than a bit... that much was probably inevitable.

I get that completely, And that's my it's probably the least bothersome of my issues with the show despite it being number 2 on my list. 

 

On 8/27/2017 at 5:11 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

You have to remember, Macross might be a space opera but it isn't quite a Star Wars-type setting like Outlaw Star where there is actual goddamn space magic.  The impact of music was never unquantified or unquantifiable in the Macross metaseries, they just had to come up with new reasons for it to be relevant starting from Macross Plus because they couldn't continue getting away with every alien species in the galaxy having no concept of music or positive emotion.  That's why Minmay's songs messed with the Zentradi's heads... as clone soldiers that were engineered and educated for a life that consists purely of warfare and military duty, they didn't have the emotional or social framework to understand and process the concepts and feelings the songs were evoking.  The only thing their leadership could equate the effect to was mind control, which is why they nuked Earth for it.

That's fair I guess. Though I think my issue is less trying to quantify it. My primary issue is more to do with how Humanity is portrayed in using music. We, a species that can create music, to bridge the emotional rift between species, being so willing to weaponize it. Sure we use music in psyops all the time, and anyone that's seen Apocalypse Now automatically associates Wagner with the image of the Air Cav coming out of the sun to mess up Charlie's day. What also bugged me was that Basara was unwilling to use force to kill people, but was more than willing to use force to make people to listen to his music. It clashed with his pacifist image. I think it was more how the concept was used, more than the concept itself.

On 8/27/2017 at 5:11 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

From Macross Plus on, they constructed a variety of nested explanations for why songs had the power to sway emotions and mental states... starting with Sharon Apple manipulating the audience's brainwaves through her songs via biofeedback, and on to sort of a mild and generally benign form of the same kind of psychic shenanigans from Warhammer 40,000, with the "biological fold waves" essentially being a mild form of psychic ability communicating emotional states and other things.  Kind of fitting, if you think about Macross's recurring themes of music as communication.

I mean, that's all fair enough. I mean we have yet to fully explain how empathy works and how the groupthink phenomenon works. Or how humans can "feel" emotions from large crowds. We also can't really explain how some forms of music transcend cultural barriers (Country and Bluegrass being popular in Japan for instance) despite the obvious glaring differences in style and composition. 

On 8/27/2017 at 5:11 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

I loathed what the did to the VF-19, and how they treated the VF-11... for my money, the VF-11's one of the best looking main continuity planes, and it's the show's buttmonkey until Gamlin and Kinryu get in them.

I mean, the only thing satisfying about the VF-11C's time on screen was how much screen time it got, even if it did spend a lot of it getting blown up. I definitely agree with you, the VF-11 is certainly a great looking ship and I wish it had been given a better run. The VF-19, I completely understand. I really liked the YF-19 and the VF-19A. I can't justify an Arcadia YF-19 to myself, but I did get the Bandai VF-19Adv, which makes me just as happy to have in my collection. The VF-19F/S is a bit more simplified, and I don't like it as much as the Y/VF-19/A/Adv. I also didn't like that it was made the Rival's mech, as it is really a standout fan favorite.

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I just wish Mylene's VF-11MAXL didn't have those silly breastplates exposed while in fighter mode.

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There was a bit too much silly super robot stuff in M7. Alas...

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If there was one thing that annoyed me with Macross 7 at first was the repetition of Basara with Planet Dance and Totsugeki Love heart in the first few episodes. If they had added one or two more songs I guess I won't be as annoyed (which they did as the series progressed)

The Try again Finale was awesome though...

Also, I don't know if I am amused or annoyed at the repetitive scene of Gamlin ejecting a laser cartridge and shooting Gavil in his Saubergeran with it in a number of episodes. 

Emerald Force didn't get much love in the series.

It would be nice if the the Thunderbolts can bring down some of the vampires as well. Something I saw in Frontier where the 171s were cannon fodder until Machida.

I wonder how would the Protodevlin fare when the face the Vajra?

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On 9/7/2017 at 12:47 AM, Valkyrie Driver said:

That's fair I guess. Though I think my issue is less trying to quantify it. My primary issue is more to do with how Humanity is portrayed in using music. We, a species that can create music, to bridge the emotional rift between species, being so willing to weaponize it. Sure we use music in psyops all the time, and anyone that's seen Apocalypse Now automatically associates Wagner with the image of the Air Cav coming out of the sun to mess up Charlie's day. What also bugged me was that Basara was unwilling to use force to kill people, but was more than willing to use force to make people to listen to his music. It clashed with his pacifist image. I think it was more how the concept was used, more than the concept itself.

Basara is really a poorly written character... he's basically what you'd get if you combined the characters of Minmay and Kaifun into one person.  An arrogant, self-absorbed, total hypocrite who doesn't mean any harm but is so totally focused on his music career that he forgets to consider the consequences his behavior has on others.  It doesn't help that, unlike Minmay, he never grows out of it and unlike Kaifun he never gets ditched by the more sensible people around him for being an asshat.

Despite Macross's anti-war message, the actual pacifists in the metaseries never seem to cause anything but problems for everyone around them.  The least problematic ones are the Zolans, whose insistence on non-lethal responses only basically turned them into extreme doormats for the whale poachers, and the only member who got sh*t done was the one who thought that philosophy was a load.  Kaifun and Basara both used pacifism as an excuse for their irrational hatred of authority, and in both cases it cost a lot of lives.  In the case of the ones like Serge Glass, who go full Relina Peacecraft, it always ends badly... he ruined his fleet's economy by being an extreme doormat in negotiations with other emigrant fleets to the point where the previously-violent anti-government protesters came across as far more rational and sensible than him.

 

 

 

20 hours ago, Sir Galahad® said:

Also, I don't know if I am amused or annoyed at the repetitive scene of Gamlin ejecting a laser cartridge and shooting Gavil in his Saubergeran with it in a number of episodes. 

The beauty of blasting off agaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaain?

 

20 hours ago, Sir Galahad® said:

Emerald Force didn't get much love in the series.

Just as well, Docker is a prat.

 

20 hours ago, Sir Galahad® said:

It would be nice if the the Thunderbolts can bring down some of the vampires as well. Something I saw in Frontier where the 171s were cannon fodder until Machida.

They can... just, only when you get Gamlin or Kinryu in the cockpit.

 

20 hours ago, Sir Galahad® said:

I wonder how would the Protodevlin fare when the face the Vajra?

Considering the Protodeviln's biotechnology is modeled on Vajra biotechnology... I'd guess advantage Vajra on pure numbers.

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1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Kaifun and Basara both used pacifism as an excuse for their irrational hatred of authority, and in both cases it cost a lot of lives.  In the case of the ones like Serge Glass, who go full Relina Peacecraft, it always ends badly... he ruined his fleet's economy by being an extreme doormat in negotiations with other emigrant fleets to the point where the previously-violent anti-government protesters came across as far more rational and sensible than him.

Its been a while since I watched M7 in its entirety, but I can't really remember much instances of Basara's defiance of authority costing lives. In fact, it seemed to me that the UN Spacy officers were far more arrogant and made things much worse by hamstringing Basara at every turn in order to push their own off-brand idols, who weren't even half as effective as Fire Bomber. At his worst, he just annoys the military types.

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4 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The beauty of blasting off agaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaain?

Yes. Exactly this. You win the internet for a day.

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4 hours ago, AN/ALQ128 said:

Its been a while since I watched M7 in its entirety, but I can't really remember much instances of Basara's defiance of authority costing lives. In fact, it seemed to me that the UN Spacy officers were far more arrogant and made things much worse by hamstringing Basara at every turn in order to push their own off-brand idols, who weren't even half as effective as Fire Bomber. At his worst, he just annoys the military types.

 

He lack sense though, when you watch Dynamite Seven. He saw the whale poachers steal weaponry and during the shooting he tells them to stop and he then whips out his guitar and starts playing, with less regard to being caught in the crossfire.

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Who's idea was the "Milky Road" anyway, that you can travel between city ships using cars and motorcycles?

Good thing they made island cluster ships...

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43 minutes ago, Sir Galahad® said:

Who's idea was the "Milky Road" anyway, that you can travel between city ships using cars and motorcycles?

Good thing they made island cluster ships...

Someone with a sense of the awesome.

...

Or who had played a LITTLE too much Super Mario Kart. Rainbow Milky Road.

 

Either way, if they can project a forcefield roadway, it stands to reason they can also project a forcefield "tunnel"

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11 hours ago, AN/ALQ128 said:

Its been a while since I watched M7 in its entirety, but I can't really remember much instances of Basara's defiance of authority costing lives. In fact, it seemed to me that the UN Spacy officers were far more arrogant and made things much worse by hamstringing Basara at every turn in order to push their own off-brand idols, who weren't even half as effective as Fire Bomber. At his worst, he just annoys the military types.

... you joking?  For like the first twenty odd episodes, literally all that happened when Basara went flying out to meet the enemy was the military would try to protect his dumb arse and tell him to GTFO, and get shot down while his self-absorbed quest to ineffectually sing at the enemy distracted them.  How many pilots could've been saved if Diamond Force didn't perpetually have to stop and tell the guy to get out of the combat zone?

 

8 hours ago, JB0 said:

Yes. Exactly this. You win the internet for a day.

Ah, the beauty of winning the internet.

 

7 hours ago, Sir Galahad® said:

Who's idea was the "Milky Road" anyway, that you can travel between city ships using cars and motorcycles?

Good thing they made island cluster ships...

No idea!  I want to know whose idea it was to build a Space Moped.

 

6 hours ago, JB0 said:

Someone with a sense of the awesome.

...

Or who had played a LITTLE too much Super Mario Kart. Rainbow Milky Road.

Like hell... anyone who's played Mario Kart knows how easy it is to fall off the f@%ing Rainbow Road.

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15 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Basara is really a poorly written character... he's basically what you'd get if you combined the characters of Minmay and Kaifun into one person.  An arrogant, self-absorbed, total hypocrite who doesn't mean any harm but is so totally focused on his music career that he forgets to consider the consequences his behavior has on others.  It doesn't help that, unlike Minmay, he never grows out of it and unlike Kaifun he never gets ditched by the more sensible people around him for being an asshat.

He is that. I don't disagree with any of what you said. 

15 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Despite Macross's anti-war message, the actual pacifists in the metaseries never seem to cause anything but problems for everyone around them.  The least problematic ones are the Zolans, whose insistence on non-lethal responses only basically turned them into extreme doormats for the whale poachers, and the only member who got sh*t done was the one who thought that philosophy was a load.  Kaifun and Basara both used pacifism as an excuse for their irrational hatred of authority, and in both cases it cost a lot of lives.  In the case of the ones like Serge Glass, who go full Relina Peacecraft, it always ends badly... he ruined his fleet's economy by being an extreme doormat in negotiations with other emigrant fleets to the point where the previously-violent anti-government protesters came across as far more rational and sensible than him.

What was it that Ghandi said... "it is better to be violent, if violence is what is in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence"? I mean, I don't like violence, but I am also not unwilling to use it, or use the threat of it, to deter injustice. Kaifun was a very strangely written character. He was openly antagonistic towards the SDFM crew, was a martial artist (Every system of martial arts I've ever learned has taught me that avoidance of conflict is always the preferable solution, Hell, the military taught me the same thing), but hated violence. His actions even show that he was ready, willing, and able to use force to solve a problem, and his words ensured that such things happened, but then became irrationally angry when he was forced to defend himself. Basara even had some of that, though it seemed that it was out of his control, his abrasive personality just compounded the problem. It almost seems to me that the pacifist characters are caricatures of pacifism. 

As much as Macross seems to be anti war, it also seems to be anti pacifist, and preferring to espouse a more platonic "golden mean" sort of philosophy. But, that could be me just reading way too much into the shows... 

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35 minutes ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

Kaifun was a very strangely written character. He was openly antagonistic towards the SDFM crew, was a martial artist (Every system of martial arts I've ever learned has taught me that avoidance of conflict is always the preferable solution, Hell, the military taught me the same thing), but hated violence. His actions even show that he was ready, willing, and able to use force to solve a problem, and his words ensured that such things happened, but then became irrationally angry when he was forced to defend himself. Basara even had some of that, though it seemed that it was out of his control, his abrasive personality just compounded the problem. It almost seems to me that the pacifist characters are caricatures of pacifism. 

Kaifun and Basara are, I think, probably not really pacifists at all... or at least they're using pacifism as an excuse for their own personal problems.

Kaifun's character is, in some ways, even stranger than Basara's.  Throughout the series, and even in events set before it, his whole life seems to revolve around this seemingly sourceless hatred he's nurturing toward the military.  I've never found any explanation for why he has such a hate-on for the UN Forces.  You'd think it was something he picked up while wandering the world after he ran away from home, but his hatred for the military was the reason he ran away in the first place... he didn't want to live near the Macross after his family decided to move to South Ataria.  In hindsight, his pacifism, his belief in nonviolent conflict resolution, and even his relationship with Minmay look like reactionary behavior triggered by his inexplicable loathing for the military.  He didn't seem at all troubled about compromising those principles as long as it meant sticking it to the military, like his exploiting his position as Minmay's manager to instigate borderline riots or emotionally and verbally abusing Minmay herself when she expressed support for the soldiers and government.  The guy's clearly got some mental health issues, but we're never told why... which makes him really bizarre considering how often his pathological hatred of soldiers causes problems.

Basara's a bit easier to understand, but it's hard to say if his issues are the result of him having an autism spectrum disorder, that Ray did a crappy job raising him, or both.  He clearly doesn't relate well to other people outside of a few narrowly-focused interests, and as part of his obsession with music he seems to have created a pacifist philosophy based on an idealized, historically inaccurate version of Minmay as a singer who ended the First Space War with her songs.  So he seems to be living his entire life around that ideal of songs ending conflict, and he reacts badly when reality is unable to align with his ideal.  I'm sure, in his mind, using speaker pods to FORCE enemy pilots to listen to his song isn't an act of violence because the songs are supposed to end the fighting.  His reaction to having to resort to violence when singing doesn't work in a street fight is similar... he's furious with himself for not being able to stop the fight with songs, and because Ray never forced him into normal social interactions he takes his frustration out on Mylene, who he sees as being in the wrong for forcing him to compromise his ideal.  

So, I guess I'm saying that both fall short of actual pacifism because Kaifun's just using it as an excuse for his personal damage and Basara's so wrapped up in an ideal he doesn't realize the hypocrisy.

 

35 minutes ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

As much as Macross seems to be anti war, it also seems to be anti pacifist, and preferring to espouse a more platonic "golden mean" sort of philosophy. But, that could be me just reading way too much into the shows... 

When it comes to the actual pacifists in the Macross metaseries, I think if you wanted to relate their treatment of pacifism to the show's overarching theme of communication the way we'd have to look at it would be as a refusal to participate in a meaningful dialog.  Instead of engaging their opposites in a two-way exchange as equals they're taking a passive-aggressive "say whatever you want, I just won't be listening" approach to communication or a holier-than-thou attitude.

Like how Serge Glass's administration on Macross-29 led the fleet to economic ruin by pursuing a non-confrontational approach to EVERYTHING.  Because he wouldn't open a dialog with the other fleets on an equal footing to avoid anything resembling aggression, he couldn't even communicate that his fleet was falling apart because of its neighbors' economic policies.

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12 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Kaifun and Basara are, I think, probably not really pacifists at all... or at least they're using pacifism as an excuse for their own personal problems.

Kaifun's character is, in some ways, even stranger than Basara's.  Throughout the series, and even in events set before it, his whole life seems to revolve around this seemingly sourceless hatred he's nurturing toward the military.  I've never found any explanation for why he has such a hate-on for the UN Forces.  You'd think it was something he picked up while wandering the world after he ran away from home, but his hatred for the military was the reason he ran away in the first place... he didn't want to live near the Macross after his family decided to move to South Ataria.  In hindsight, his pacifism, his belief in nonviolent conflict resolution, and even his relationship with Minmay look like reactionary behavior triggered by his inexplicable loathing for the military.  He didn't seem at all troubled about compromising those principles as long as it meant sticking it to the military, like his exploiting his position as Minmay's manager to instigate borderline riots or emotionally and verbally abusing Minmay herself when she expressed support for the soldiers and government.  The guy's clearly got some mental health issues, but we're never told why... which makes him really bizarre considering how often his pathological hatred of soldiers causes problems. 

My guess is Kaifun blames the military for the Unification Wars and all the death and destruction of caused (nevermind that the UN had a reason for it (dangerous aliens could be coming) which they were entirely correct about, though that was probably mostly classified outside of the existence of the Macross). Perhaps Kaifun deep down wanted the Anti UN to win cause they acted the part of freedom fighters against an oppressive regime and is just mad they lost. 

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1 hour ago, Master Dex said:

My guess is Kaifun blames the military for the Unification Wars and all the death and destruction of caused (nevermind that the UN had a reason for it (dangerous aliens could be coming) which they were entirely correct about, though that was probably mostly classified outside of the existence of the Macross). Perhaps Kaifun deep down wanted the Anti UN to win cause they acted the part of freedom fighters against an oppressive regime and is just mad they lost. 

To be fair, I don't know how much of the actual politics is actually described in Macross backstory. I'm guessing Seto probably has more on that (if anyone does). As for Kaifun blaming the military, well, that's pretty much par for the course in free societies (Though how free the world is after the SDF-1's departure is unclear). Soldiers get blamed for the wars the politicians start. 

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1 hour ago, Master Dex said:

My guess is Kaifun blames the military for the Unification Wars and all the death and destruction of caused (nevermind that the UN had a reason for it (dangerous aliens could be coming) which they were entirely correct about, though that was probably mostly classified outside of the existence of the Macross).

That's about the only plausible explanation, though it's dubious how he'd have actually known about it since the wars didn't exactly devastate Earth.  For the most part it was little brushfire conflicts the local partisans started after balking at the idea of a unified world government.  There are plenty of similar conflicts in this day in age, but they don't exactly provoke such an intense, seething, almost self-destructive hatred in people totally unrelated to the actual casus belli.  Such an intense hatred can't have just popped up out of nowhere, and as I noted before the one really plausible-sounding theory that he picked it up while wandering the globe doesn't work because it was his reason for running away from home to begin with.

Admittedly, I'd also like an explanation for why Basara is so down on the military.  It's a real tough sell that he's so stupendously thick that he doesn't realize that Ray Lovelock is still working for the Macross-7 fleet's NUNS, and that he himself is serving as a test pilot for a black project run by the fleet's military brass.  I mean, he can't possibly believe Ray just happened to find a custom VF-19 Excalibur set up for Minmay Attack ops.  Nobody could be THAT dense and still dress themselves.  Likewise, he has to know Ray's a former ace pilot from an elite combat unit, yet he doesn't give Ray any grief for his military past or his ongoing affiliation with the military.

 

 

1 hour ago, Master Dex said:

Perhaps Kaifun deep down wanted the Anti UN to win cause they acted the part of freedom fighters against an oppressive regime and is just mad they lost. 

... that'd make him an even more monstrous hypocrite than he already was, which is admittedly a hell of a trick.  About half of the Anti-Unification Alliance's major military actions in the chronology are massacres of one kind or another, like nuking St. Petersburg, hijacking an Oberth-class space destroyer and using it to wipe out the Mars Return Fleet, or bombing the construction crews who were working on Grand Cannon II.  (We can't count their bombing of Mayan, since that was still secret at the time.)

He'd have to have been a complete psychopath to still support them at the time he was introduced in the series... the UN Government's cover story for the disappearance of the SDF-1 Macross along with South Ataria island itself was that Alliance remnants had nuked it off the map, which would've killed his entire immediate family and his cousin.

 

 

17 minutes ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

To be fair, I don't know how much of the actual politics is actually described in Macross backstory. I'm guessing Seto probably has more on that (if anyone does). As for Kaifun blaming the military, well, that's pretty much par for the course in free societies (Though how free the world is after the SDF-1's departure is unclear). Soldiers get blamed for the wars the politicians start. 

We don't know a lot, I'm afraid... but the UN Government was supposedly a reasonably effective and levelheaded representative democracy for a free society.  They did go too in their efforts to avoid the panic that would ensue if word got out that they were potentially at war with an alien military, but in the case of the few specific grievances we've heard the Anti-Unification Alliance lay at their door, the big ones seem to be a mix of simply not knowing what the real reason for certain actions were and a healthy dose of twisting the facts like Nora's claim the UN Gov't stole the variable system from her homeland when it was freely shared.

That's why Kaifun's seething, focused rage toward the military doesn't make a ton of sense... we've never really seen them do anything to actually deserve his loathing.

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1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

... that'd make him an even more monstrous hypocrite than he already was, which is admittedly a hell of a trick.  About half of the Anti-Unification Alliance's major military actions in the chronology are massacres of one kind or another, like nuking St. Petersburg, hijacking an Oberth-class space destroyer and using it to wipe out the Mars Return Fleet, or bombing the construction crews who were working on Grand Cannon II.  (We can't count their bombing of Mayan, since that was still secret at the time.)

He'd have to have been a complete psychopath to still support them at the time he was introduced in the series... the UN Government's cover story for the disappearance of the SDF-1 Macross along with South Ataria island itself was that Alliance remnants had nuked it off the map, which would've killed his entire immediate family and his cousin.

***

We don't know a lot, I'm afraid... but the UN Government was supposedly a reasonably effective and levelheaded representative democracy for a free society.  They did go too in their efforts to avoid the panic that would ensue if word got out that they were potentially at war with an alien military, but in the case of the few specific grievances we've heard the Anti-Unification Alliance lay at their door, the big ones seem to be a mix of simply not knowing what the real reason for certain actions were and a healthy dose of twisting the facts like Nora's claim the UN Gov't stole the variable system from her homeland when it was freely shared.

That's why Kaifun's seething, focused rage toward the military doesn't make a ton of sense... we've never really seen them do anything to actually deserve his loathing.

Fair point. However people who act irrationally often have irrational reasons in their heads. I'd put forth that Kaifun wasn't a supporter of the Anti-UN as such and likely hated them just as much, but he may still lay blame on the UNG and their military for putting in motion the politics that frenzied the Anti-UN members into committing those horrible acts. As such he wouldn't be apologizing for the Anti-UN, but he would be saying it was ultimately the UNG's fault. It's an insanely stupid way to rationalize something, but that's just the thing.. some people really do come up with crazy justifications to allow them to hate someone when they really just have no real reason to do so. Since it seems that is what Kaifun is doing, hating on the military for no clear reason... he probably in his half-baked mind has a similarly messed up rationale.

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So, Is it just me, or did Basara become more interesting once Sivil showed up? I mean I still hated him for being poorly written and flat as roadkill. Maybe I'm just interested in learning more about Sivil...

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It isn't you. There's some depth to Basara desperately trying to claw its way through his thick skull, and it almost succeeds.

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Almost, lol. Though Sivil's music-induced orgasms tends to distract from it.

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25 minutes ago, Master Dex said:

Almost, lol. Though Sivil's music-induced orgasms tends to distract from it.

Best part of the show!

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13 hours ago, JB0 said:

It isn't you. There's some depth to Basara desperately trying to claw its way through his thick skull, and it almost succeeds.

Ok. I had to be sure. I mean once you introduce a foil (in this case Sivil) it's hard for a character to be boring and uninteresting, but somehow Basara manages. Let's be honest, I only hate Basara because he's a flimsy one dimensional character. It's not like I have an actual visceral emotional reason to hate the character (Like how I hate Cersei Lannister, but that's a conversation for another thread). 

2 hours ago, Master Dex said:

Almost, lol. Though Sivil's music-induced orgasms tends to distract from it.

Hmm... What? I... uhh... crap...

2 hours ago, JB0 said:

Best part of the show!

Well... Maybe not the best part but top 5?

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14 hours ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

So, Is it just me, or did Basara become more interesting once Sivil showed up? I mean I still hated him for being poorly written and flat as roadkill. Maybe I'm just interested in learning more about Sivil...

Just a little... enough to really throw his lack of character development and personality into sharper relief.  Her one-dimensionalness distracts from his.

 

 

14 hours ago, JB0 said:

It isn't you. There's some depth to Basara desperately trying to claw its way through his thick skull, and it almost succeeds.

Like the world's hardest working, but most-disadvantaged, xenomorph...

 

 

3 hours ago, Master Dex said:

Almost, lol. Though Sivil's music-induced orgasms tends to distract from it.

Y'sure that's what that is?  To me, it always looked like she was fighting a wicked sneeze.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Just a little... enough to really throw his lack of character development and personality into sharper relief.  Her one-dimensionalness distracts from his.

I wonder if the Japanese audience was as put off by these one dimensional characters as we are? 

 

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Like the world's hardest working, but most-disadvantaged, xenomorph...

^quoted for funny

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Y'sure that's what that is?  To me, it always looked like she was fighting a wicked sneeze.

Could have been both...?

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The Sivil reaction thing has been consistently joked about cause it looks suspiciously similar to that. Coupled with the fact that everyone but the PD react so positively to Fire Bomber music leads some to guess that get reaction and the fact she keeps coming back for more is a kind of "hurts so good" thing lol. 

Edited by Master Dex

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The fact that Sivil looks like she's wearing bodypaint and not much else doesn't exactly dissuade people from thinking that way.

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23 hours ago, Master Dex said:

The Sivil reaction thing has been consistently joked about cause it looks suspiciously similar to that. Coupled with the fact that everyone but the PD react so positively to Fire Bomber music leads some to guess that get reaction and the fact she keeps coming back for more is a kind of "hurts so good" thing lol. 

Eh... I'm not so sure it's every Protodeviln who reacts positively to Fire Bomber.  Gigile, Gavil, and Glavil didn't seem to have much love for it, especially when it started to make Gavil shrivel up like he'd started aging super-rapidly and Glavil would only make that horrible shrieking noise.  Gigile's attitude seemed to be pretty much in line with Gamlin's initial reaction "This is awful, I'll only put up with it because the girl I like (Sivil) is peripherally involved".

(Still better than Zomd and Goram's ojou laugh... "What if Naga the Serpent were twins, and a fifty meter tall space monster?")

 

4 hours ago, JB0 said:

The fact that Sivil looks like she's wearing bodypaint and not much else doesn't exactly dissuade people from thinking that way.

Well, maybe in the chest area... most of her is squeezed into what looks like a pleather catsuit, but that hardly diminishes her fetish fuel look.  Espionage model indeed... if that look was supposed to go unnoticed, one can only imagine what Protoculture fashion of the period looked like.

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6 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Eh... I'm not so sure it's every Protodeviln who reacts positively to Fire Bomber.  Gigile, Gavil, and Glavil didn't seem to have much love for it, especially when it started to make Gavil shrivel up like he'd started aging super-rapidly and Glavil would only make that horrible shrieking noise.  Gigile's attitude seemed to be pretty much in line with Gamlin's initial reaction "This is awful, I'll only put up with it because the girl I like (Sivil) is peripherally involved".

(Still better than Zomd and Goram's ojou laugh... "What if Naga the Serpent were twins, and a fifty meter tall space monster?")

Agh.. I had a brain fart I guess, I know I meant to write that the Protodeviln reacted negatively to Fire Bomber in general.

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Well I think they all acted negatively to it. I mean the spiritia that was being generated by Basara is making them actually uncomfortable. I think the spiritia is making them too ecstatic which is why Gavil shriveling up is kinda questionable.

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Some interesting discussion here and attempts at analysis.

But given that M7 is aimed at kids, and given its "Gattai!!!!" hero style, I think a serious analysis of its contradictions would be futile.

I didnt enjoy its repetitious aspects, and I would have prefered a higher mecha animation budget; but it would have been a rockin' series if condensed to 26 eps even without addressing my pet peeves about it.

Overall, I think Basara is like a force of nature, and you cant really pin down his actions as "reasonable" in a normal sense and analyse too much. (I am agreeing with others here, it's not an original theory.)

Love Basara, Love Mylene, Love Fire Bomber playing to Max and Miria in the stands any day.  But keep repetitious Gattai and Macross separate.

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So I finished Macross 7 about a month ago and I really liked it. I think it's probably my favorite Macross (Don't get me wrong, SDFM and Macross Plus are better series, I just personally like 7 better).

I didn't really have any problems with the complaints I hear about the series. I can understand most of them, but I didn't find them to be problems. It has great music, I really liked the characters, and even if it's a bit repetitive, I still found it really fun.

I understand the complaint that it gives too much power to music and it's probably my biggest problem with the series, but I'm still OK with it. There's only so far you can go with music as a center-point without either powering up music or dropping it as a focus, and I think Macross 7 understood this. The problem is if you keep music as not being powerful like in SDFM, you just get the same plot of a musician culture shocking aliens told again. There's only so many ways you can tell one story. In fact, this is one of my main problems with Macross II in that it tries too hard to be like SDFM and DYRL and just ends up not being very good. I think powering up music was just a logical step.

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While I classified some of my complaints as problems, they're something that I can accept. I don't care for those aspects, but I can get over them. While M7 is not my favorite, it is not my least favorite either. Then again, I don't think I could pick a favorite or least favorite. 

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5 hours ago, Retro Chocolate said:

I understand the complaint that it gives too much power to music and it's probably my biggest problem with the series, but I'm still OK with it. There's only so far you can go with music as a center-point without either powering up music or dropping it as a focus, and I think Macross 7 understood this. The problem is if you keep music as not being powerful like in SDFM, you just get the same plot of a musician culture shocking aliens told again. There's only so many ways you can tell one story. In fact, this is one of my main problems with Macross II in that it tries too hard to be like SDFM and DYRL and just ends up not being very good. I think powering up music was just a logical step.

Great summary.

I think that's one of the biggest reasons why I like M7 - it is an evolution of SDFM/DYRL.

That said, I do see where some of the complaints about it come from (evolution not being more of the same), and I personally think the production team could have handled a few things better.  Nevertheless, M7 has an undeniably great, original setting!

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