The computer and electronics super geek superthread...

[David Hingtgen]

Wow, I was just hoping for some hints to get started, and you build a whole new PC! If you can do it that fast, then I have a request:

Make one even cheaper but can still do Vista decently (and shrink the hard drive a lot), with almost no gaming capability, and one around the grand range with just a little bit more gaming, but focusing on max processing (as in, loading/filing/moving lots of files and multi-multi-tasking, and photoshop rendering etc).

Specific task: website with huge numbers of small images, already in the cache. It takes more time to "find" them than to download them. What feature of a processor would minimize that web page's loading/display time? (Say, 500 thumbnails on a single page, and I want them all displayed NOW) Or, I want to simultaneously load like 10 different 6 megapixel images into a photo editor to tweak contrast, crop, etc

Question: will the 775 socket be replaced with anything else soon? Sockets don't change often AFAIK, but if the 775 is already on the "back edge" of its life span, I might wait for the next one. That's the trouble I ran into on this PC. The factory processor is about the highest-end one the socket/mboard can support, there's only 1 higher I know of, and that's kind of a pointless upgrade. To get a notably better CPU requires a whole new board--which my current graphics card won't work with.

Cases---I like ones with a front "door" over the ports/card readers, and prefer USB ports and card readers etc to be mounted as high up as possible. Rounded edges are nice, too. Also, does any case nowadays offer a "true" on-off switch that actually cuts power like a light switch, or are they all now the "push to reset, press and HOLD to shut down". Because I want one that I can instantly totally cut power from with a single quick flip of a switch.

(boy did this conversation quickly become a lot more complicated and specific than I intended)

[JB0]

Cases---I like ones with a front "door" over the ports/card readers, and prefer USB ports and card readers etc to be mounted as high up as possible. Rounded edges are nice, too. Also, does any case nowadays offer a "true" on-off switch that actually cuts power like a light switch, or are they all now the "push to reset, press and HOLD to shut down". Because I want one that I can instantly totally cut power from with a single quick flip of a switch.

That's actually controlled by the motherboard.

The BIOS typically has an option to set it to "instant-off" or hold for 4 seconds.

Buuuut... it won't instantly kill the system from within the OS. It'll send a shutdown command to your OS, which will put it's stuff away before it kills the system.

All hail the soft power-switch in all it's shades of gray!

By ATX spec, the only "hard" power switch is on the back of the power supply. And it's not intended to be used except in select circumstances.

[VF-19]

David, shrinking the hard drive will result in you paying MORE for what you get, on a dollar/cent per gigabyte. Recently (within the last 6 months) I spent $100 Canadian to buy a 320 Gig hard drive. Now it'll cost you about $90 Canadian. For about $120 Canadian, you can get a nice massive 500 gig hard drive. Ahh, progress!

As for socket 775, I doubt it's on its way out soon. Intel just introduced the new Wolfdale cores, and they're using the socket 775 interface. It'll be a while before the socket is phased out.

[azrael]

Cases---I like ones with a front "door" over the ports/card readers, and prefer USB ports and card readers etc to be mounted as high up as possible. Rounded edges are nice, too. Also, does any case nowadays offer a "true" on-off switch that actually cuts power like a light switch, or are they all now the "push to reset, press and HOLD to shut down". Because I want one that I can instantly totally cut power from with a single quick flip of a switch.

Which do you prefer?

Thermaltake Tsunami VA3000BNA Black Aluminum ATX Mid Tower Computer Case - Retail

or

COOLER MASTER Mystique RC-632S-KKN1-GP Black Aluminum/ SECC ATX Mid Tower Computer Case - Retail

Bear in mind, I could pick other ones.

[mikeszekely]

I'm sure you noticed that all Az's links go to Newegg? I recently bought the all of the parts except an optical drive and a hard drive to build a home theater PC. The optical drive I salvaged from another computer, the hard drive I bought at Staples with a coupon. Total cost, including shipping (and the trip to Staples), was about $350 (no OS).

Now, with all due respect, some of Azrael's choices are pretty interesting. Like the video card. A GeForce 8600GT definitely won't need upgraded for awhile, but it's also likely more than you want to spend now, as the most-demanding games graphically are FPS anyway (and while you do like variety, I don't really see you playing many of those on a PC). Likewise, while the E6550 is a solid processor and I do agree it's a good deal compared to lower-end models, I determined that an E6650 is the minimum for 720p output should you someday have a Blu-ray or HD-DVD drive. The RAM is a great price for a dual-channel kit, if you buy it now, while it's on sale. I think I've read enough of your posts to know that you've got a few more weeks of reading suggestions, pricing, and thinking about it. And all of Intel's 775 chips come with CPU coolers, and they're perfectly fine unless you plan on overclocking. The optical drive is louder than the fans on the HTPC I built, and even at peak, the fans are quieter than the 360.

Instead of just listing some parts, I'm going to walk you though.

First, the motherboard is, IMHO, the most important part, since it's going to decide the bulk of what goes into your computer. But, before you can select a mobo, you need to pick a processor. As VF-19 suggested, the LGA 775 socket's going to be around for awhile, and the Core 2 Duo processor family offers solid performance out of the box. For $20 more than Azrael's 6550, I strongly recommend an E6750.. (Honestly, I bought a $45 1.6GHz Celeron Conroe-L, but my budget was $300 for the whole thing. I'll upgrade later).

Now you can pick a motherboard. Now, Vista and light (if any) gaming doesn't actually tell me much about your uses. Yes, if you buy a 64-bit version of Vista you can have up to 16GB of RAM, but 3.3GB is the absolute max for any 32-bit OS (and the 32-bit versions of Vista happen to be slightly more compatible with older apps). And how much expandability do you need? Azrael's mobo is a great choice for getting gaming performance out of your box and for maximum expandability. But perhaps you can sacrifice some of that expandability and RAM slots for a board that's a little more flexible out of the box? I'm going to recommend the same board I bought for my HTPC, an EVGA 112-CK-NF77. Yeah, it only supports a max of 4GB of RAM, and yeah, it only has one PCIx1 and one PCIx16 (so no SLI, but you're not gaming with it anyway). But a lot of what you'll need is on the board already, including an on-board GeForce 7150, HDCP-compliant video and audio over HDMI, DVI, or S/PDIF, (plus a good old VGA and regular audio out), gigabit ethernet, four rear USB and one rear Firewire 400 ports (and I think connectors for four front USB, I can't remember as my case only had two), and four SATA controllers (1 IDE, if you go that route). You have to give the onboard video RAM from the system, but you can configure how much in the BIOS. I gave it 128MB. RAM can go in either slot, so I bought a single 2GB stick for it (it doesn't support dual-channel). It's slightly cheaper than buying a pair of 1GB sticks, and you're not wasting money on sticks you'll remove should you decide to add more RAM. And I think the onboard video should be enough. With that board and 2GB or RAM (and the Celeron), Vista rated my HTPC a 3. I've only installed two PC games on it, Neverwinter Nights and Neverwinter Nights 2. NWN runs fine at the highest settings, NWN 2 runs fine with medium settings. The PCIx16 slot will allow you to add a video card later should you decide you need it.

I've already listed the RAM, but it's simply a matter of figuring out what kind of configuration works best (in the above case, RAM can go in either slot, a max of 2GB in each slot), then picking the RAM speed that matches the bus, which would be DDR2 800 (PC 6400).

We've got the important stuff out of the way, but things get a little muddled after that. You need a case to put it all in, and a power supply to run it all. The board I've selected is a MicroATX board, but taking a quick peak at the MicroATX power supplies shows that we don't have a lot of options there. (In my case, I went with an HTPC case that has a TFX power supply, so my options were limited to a single 300w PSU... the same one that came with the case). When picking a case, you need to find one that fits your board, but also a PSU with enough power for what you want to run. Luckily, there's help. Antec has a power usage calculator. I was able to determine that I'd be using about 210w at peak, so I felt comfortable with the 300w PSU. But I'm going to say that the most powerful MicroATX PSU listed (a 400w unit) doesn't leave enough room for upgradablity. You'd be safer in the 500-750w zone. Luckily, many ATX cases can support a MicroATX board. So, we're going to look at the ATX cases.

ATX cases come in a few different sizes, but the most common is the mid tower. Full-size towers offer more room for extra drives and what not, but if you were concerned with enough room for four hard drives in a RAID-0 array, you wouldn't be on a budget, would you? A case is honestly where you can start to cheap out, but sadly, you'll pay for the door. Still, here's a Rosewill case with a door that shouldn't set you back too much.

And of course, you'll need a power supply. I know they're not one of the bigger ones, but I've had luck with hec.

So, the running total now is about $381, plus shipping (about $20 when I ordered all that stuff). So we'll say $400. If you're replacing your old computer, you can probably salvage your hard drive/optical drive, although that mobo only has one IDE controller, so you have a maximum of two IDE devices. You've also got plenty of budget left over, should you decided to purchase new drives. With the above set up, you could even buy a LG Blu-ray/HD-DVD combo drive ($300) or a Blu-ray writer/HD-DVD reader ($400). Personally, I'm waiting for them to come down more (not to mention I need a processor upgrade), so we'll say they're future upgrades. In the mean time, hard drives seem expensive, but the bigger you get the less it is per GB. Also, SATA is faster (and the board has more SATA controllers). So, I'll suggest a 500GB Western Digital Caviar for a hard drive. As for optical drives, you can get DVD burners cheap from Newegg. The one Azrael linked is fine, but here's an even cheaper Sony NEC unit that burns everything up to dual-layer DVDs.

Estimated cost so far, $505+ shipping.

Now, should you decide you need a video card (I honestly do think the onboard video will suit you), I definitely don't think you need an 8600GT. Save now, and upgrade later with an MSI 8400GT. If you like the HDMI out (an audio over HDMI, then maybe you're stuck with the 8600GT, but go with MSI again. Azrael's EVGA model didn't have HDMI, but they cost the same.

Total cost $565 for the 8400GT, $605 for the 8600GT w/HDMI.

Oh, and I didn't count any rebates or sales which may or may not be available when you go to order.

[David Hingtgen]

I've been looking around, and I can't find a case at all like I want/have. Here's my current case, which is IMHO perfect (and part of the reason I bought this HP years ago):

http://www.amazon.com/Pavilion-Desktop-2-8...g/dp/B0000DK3KP The two optical drives are behind individual doors, that are spring-loaded with just enough pressure to keep them closed, but open by themselves when the tray pushes them out. External buttons for the tray. I do not want "bare" drives that are exposed to dust and dirt. I also do not want them behind a single big door that covers half the tower that I have to open every time I change discs. My case has "automatic" doors for each drive, which is a really nice feature.

The middle of the tower's front has a door that slides up/down, for "stuff only used occasionally". Behind it are the 3.5 floppy, front USB/firewire, audio jacks, and the card reader. A small pic of it lowered is here: http://h10032.www1.hp.com/ctg/Images/c00760222.jpg Again, it's just a sliding door inside the case front itself, you don't have to swing open the entire front half of the case, etc.

I want at least ONE of these features (optical drive doors, door for card readers) and really would like both. Or possibly--since I like my current case so much, how high-end of a system can it support if I completely gut it and rebuild? The limiting factor is really cooling I think. No front fans, side vents are so small and oddly placed that I think they're mainly just decoration, and a single 92mm fan at the rear. A far cry from the current "standard" of a 120mm fan at rear, 80mm fans scattered around as needed, and a large side vent/duct for the CPU. It does suck in a lot of air through the lower front of the case, the front grill holes collect lots of lint, but I don't think I could add a fan/filter to the front to cool the hard drive etc---no room with the arrangement it has.

I found a "92mm to 120mm" fan adapter. I never overclock anything even slightly (CPU nor graphics) as I want as utterly reliable and long-lived a PC as possible, so it never gets very hot. (and I like them quiet, so that means keeping things cool to minimize required # of fans and fan speed) Buying a second graphics card in the future may happen, but I'm thinking it'd may be better to just get a single new one. Scenario:

Buy a $150-$250 card in the next year. Buy another of that same type of card 2-3 years later when it's really cheap (under a hundred) and link them together. But would that even be worth it, or would it be better to just buy a single, brand-new card then? If so, I'll never have more than 1 card in the case.

[mikeszekely]

Which do you prefer?

Thermaltake Tsunami VA3000BNA Black Aluminum ATX Mid Tower Computer Case - Retail

or

COOLER MASTER Mystique RC-632S-KKN1-GP Black Aluminum/ SECC ATX Mid Tower Computer Case - Retail

Bear in mind, I could pick other ones.

I'm not saying that you're not picking great parts. You absolutely are. I think you're picking stuff that's better for gamers, enthusiasts, and overclockers, though.

[mikeszekely]

I've been looking around, and I can't find a case at all like I want/have. Here's my current case, which is IMHO perfect (and part of the reason I bought this HP years ago):

http://www.amazon.com/Pavilion-Desktop-2-8...g/dp/B0000DK3KP The two optical drives are behind individual doors, that are spring-loaded with just enough pressure to keep them closed, but open by themselves when the tray pushes them out. External buttons for the tray. I do not want "bare" drives that are exposed to dust and dirt. I also do not want them behind a single big door that covers half the tower that I have to open every time I change discs. My case has "automatic" doors for each drive, which is a really nice feature.

The middle of the tower's front has a door that slides up/down, for "stuff only used occasionally". Behind it are the 3.5 floppy, front USB/firewire, audio jacks, and the card reader. A small pic of it lowered is here: http://h10032.www1.hp.com/ctg/Images/c00760222.jpg Again, it's just a sliding door inside the case front itself, you don't have to swing open the entire front half of the case, etc.

I want at least ONE of these features (optical drive doors, door for card readers) and really would like both. Or possibly--since I like my current case so much, how high-end of a system can it support if I completely gut it and rebuild? The limiting factor is really cooling I think. No front fans, side vents are so small and oddly placed that I think they're mainly just decoration, and a single 92mm fan at the rear. A far cry from the current "standard" of a 120mm fan at rear, 80mm fans scattered around as needed, and a large side vent/duct for the CPU. It does suck in a lot of air through the lower front of the case, the front grill holes collect lots of lint, but I don't think I could add a fan/filter to the front to cool the hard drive etc---no room with the arrangement it has.

I found a "92mm to 120mm" fan adapter. I never overclock anything even slightly (CPU nor graphics) as I want as utterly reliable and long-lived a PC as possible, so it never gets very hot. (and I like them quiet, so that means keeping things cool to minimize required # of fans and fan speed) Buying a second graphics card in the future may happen, but I'm thinking it'd may be better to just get a single new one. Scenario:

Buy a $150-$250 card in the next year. Buy another of that same type of card 2-3 years later when it's really cheap (under a hundred) and link them together. But would that even be worth it, or would it be better to just buy a single, brand-new card then? If so, I'll never have more than 1 card in the case.

Cooling's not the only issue. HP uses proprietary parts, and may not fit standard ATX mobos or PSUs.

[Duke Togo]

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx...N82E16811112156

Lian-Li, or nothing.

If you are building a PC for gaming, don't go with Vista. Actually, don't go with Vista for any reason, but certainly not for gaming.

[David Hingtgen]

Cooling's not the only issue. HP uses proprietary parts, and may not fit standard ATX mobos or PSUs.

Everyone says that, but mine doesn't seem to. The motherboard is a standard ASUS (with a HP logo in the BIOS and some configuration options blocked) and I've already changed the PSU. Maybe some or even most HP's use their own parts and are like Dells, but mine seems to be "pretty normal parts in a HP case". (this discussion occured over a year ago in this thread, when I first upgraded this PC to try to get another year or two out of it)

[azrael]

Make one even cheaper but can still do Vista decently (and shrink the hard drive a lot), with almost no gaming capability,

Okay, a no frills system...Just a word of warning, I can go lower, much lower. And I am throwing in a bit of future-proofing as requested.

COOLER MASTER Elite 330 RC-330-KKN1-GP Black SECC ATX Mid Tower Computer Case - Retail

Sunbeam RGPS-450W ATX 450Watts Power Supply - OEM

Intel Core 2 Duo E4500 Allendale 2.2GHz LGA 775 65W Dual-Core Processor Model BX80557E4500 - Retail

GIGABYTE GA-73VM-S2 LGA 775 NVIDIA GeForce 7050/nForce 610i Micro ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail

A-DATA Value Series 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model VDQVE1A16K - Retail

Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 ST380815AS 80GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM

Sony NEC Optiarc 20X DVD±R DVD Burner Black IDE Model AD-7190A - OEM

Optional:

ECS N8400GS-256DZL GeForce 8400GS 256MB 64-bit GDDR2 PCI Express x16 Video Card - Retail

total (at currently listed prices) = $379.92 USD (no shipping or tax), 341.93 w/o 8400GS video card

I did go with a Mini-ATX board instead of a ATX. The board also has built-in video so the video card is optional. In either case, Vista would work. Maybe not for the best, but it will work. And I could drop the price lower, but it would require moving to AMD for the CPU. The E4500 was the only one I saw in stock at most places. Most cases have the USB slots either mid-level or on the bottom. Those that have it higher are a bit more pricy.

and one around the grand range with just a little bit more gaming, but focusing on max processing (as in, loading/filing/moving lots of files and multi-multi-tasking, and photoshop rendering etc).

And for more gamer-class, as suggested, you could swap the E6550 with a E6750. Otherwise, my 1st response to you would definitely handle this category.

[David Hingtgen]

Thanks much for the info. Processor question (as I know nothing about multi-core)---if I was going to spend even more on the CPU, like 250 or so. I could either get a "faster" dual core, or move into "slower" quad cores. And various front bus speeds. This may be an impossible question, but what's "better"?

[emajnthis]

I'm building a computer for an old friend; desktop PC, i have all of my parts priced out except one thing. He wants this computer to do a little of everything (gaming, business, music, storage, etc.) so it's pretty high end, but he also wants it to function as a PVR. I plan on adding an extra HDD (he doesn't want to run RAID so that makes things easier), but what PCI media card would be decent to perform PVR duties from cable TV. To be honest, i'm burnt out form work lately and too lazy to do research so anyone who is willing to do it for me would get a big thumbs up (Azreal, Mike ).

[azrael]

Thanks much for the info. Processor question (as I know nothing about multi-core)---if I was going to spend even more on the CPU, like 250 or so. I could either get a "faster" dual core, or move into "slower" quad cores. And various front bus speeds. This may be an impossible question, but what's "better"?

It really depends on what you plan on doing. Eventually, everything will be heading to quad-core CPUs. But right now, there isn't a terrible amount of software that really takes advantage of all 4 cores. So this one is up to you.

[JB0]

I found a "92mm to 120mm" fan adapter. I never overclock anything even slightly (CPU nor graphics) as I want as utterly reliable and long-lived a PC as possible, so it never gets very hot. (and I like them quiet, so that means keeping things cool to minimize required # of fans and fan speed) Buying a second graphics card in the future may happen, but I'm thinking it'd may be better to just get a single new one. Scenario:

Buy a $150-$250 card in the next year. Buy another of that same type of card 2-3 years later when it's really cheap (under a hundred) and link them together. But would that even be worth it, or would it be better to just buy a single, brand-new card then? If so, I'll never have more than 1 card in the case.

SLI as an upgrade path hasn't borne out like it was initially promoted.

Either you upgrade so fast you should've bought a better card to start with, or by the time you upgrade, you can get a single card that will outperform your SLI rig for a similar cost.

Assuming you can even still FIND a matching card. While this is easier now that the restrictions have been eased(originally the cards had to be identical models), it's still by no means guaranteed that the chipset you need will still be available at retail when you're ready to upgrade.

[mikeszekely]

It really depends on what you plan on doing. Eventually, everything will be heading to quad-core CPUs. But right now, there isn't a terrible amount of software that really takes advantage of all 4 cores. So this one is up to you.

To go one further on this note, by the time everything's set to take advantage of quad-cores, it may be time to start from scratch. There's only so much future-proofing that you can do. For what you do now, I'd say faster dual-core. As for bus speeds, it's hard to say, as not every bus operates at the same speed, and a computer's only as fast as its slowest component. The faster the bus, basically, the faster the CPU can get info from the RAM (or from other components). Honestly, though, for the thumbnail thing you mentioned earlier, if your bandwidth isn't dragging you down, the CPU cache and the RAM are going to be your primary concern. Either of the processors Azrael or I suggested have 4MB of L2 cache to work with, and while it's not the fastest RAM, DDR2-800 (PC 6400) is plenty fast enough, as long as the board supports it.

And Duke, I was just picking something cheap that might suit David's needs, but I actually really like Lian-li cases. My previous home-built unit had a Lian-li case, and I seriously considered using them again (and might when I replace my desktop), but ultimately settled on an In-win case for my HTPC. Reason being, PSUs are a pain to fit in an HTPC case, an aside from looking nice, the In-win had a good 50w on the Lian-li that was my second choice.

As for Vista, I used an OEM Vista Ultimate on my HTPC, mostly because I wanted Windows Media Center. So, if David wants Vista, I can safely say that the build I suggested will run Vista. But hindsight, I totally agree with you. Vista has been nothing but headaches. Even logged in as the Admin with User Account Controls turned off, some games simply do not run unless I open the folder, right-click the .exe file, and select "Run As Administrator". I hope SP1 fixes some of Vistas problems, but when I replace my desktop (hopefully this year) I'm sticking with Windows XP. If Windows ME was like a broken Windows 98 with some of XP's eventual features, then Vista is a broken XP with some of Vienna's eventual features.

[Duke Togo]

For me, Vista vs XP comes down to speed. My current build is probably 6 months old, and there is no contest between the two. The Windows ME to Windows 98 comparison might not be all that far off the mark. Then again, XP wasn't any hot shakes when it hit the market, either, and I don't think I switched over from Win 2000 until sometime around SP2.

As far as the Lian Li goes, I have two myself, but I should note that the one I linked was in the same price range of the others that were being posted in the thread. I wasn't going to post up a $200 case.

[mikeszekely]

For me, Vista vs XP comes down to speed. My current build is probably 6 months old, and there is no contest between the two. The Windows ME to Windows 98 comparison might not be all that far off the mark. Then again, XP wasn't any hot shakes when it hit the market, either, and I don't think I switched over from Win 2000 until sometime around SP2.

Yeah, that's why I'm crossing my fingers and hoping that SP1 will fix some Vista issues. But the User Account Controls, even when it's turned off, causes a lot more problems than it solved by annoyingly asking you to allow or deny everything you just told the damn thing to do. I mean, I can't even figure out how to uninstall IE7. I'd be happy just to disable it, but Vista won't allow you to modify anything in the IE7 folder, even if you're the admin. Hey, it's my computer, Microsoft... I should be able to delete any file I want, even if it breaks the OS.

On a semi-related note, wasn't the whole reason that Microsoft faced anti-trust violations in the first place because they tied IE to the OS?

[azrael]

Yeah, that's why I'm crossing my fingers and hoping that SP1 will fix some Vista issues. ...*snip*

Don't hold your breath...

http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,142233/article.html

Oh, and when you buy Vista, you don't own it. You license it. The TOS specifically states that:

The software is licensed, not sold. This agreement only gives you some rights to use the software. Microsoft reserves all other rights. Unless applicable law gives you more rights despite this limitation, you may use the software only as expressly permitted in this agreement.

Yeah, I know. Talk about not owning your computer anymore....

[David Hingtgen]

All of which is why I'm considering buying a full copy of XP now, before it goes away again (remember when Vista first came out, retail copies of XP disappeared almost immediately for months until people demanded it back). (Since I currently only have an OEM-installed version without a true install disc, and it will NOT like being installed in another PC or hard drive--HP has several little things buried in their version to prevent that, or even "major" upgrades to this PC itself). Then, maybe when Vista SP2 comes out, I can/will upgrade. Last I saw, XP is supposed to be supported until 2014.

[mikeszekely]

Oh, and when you buy Vista, you don't own it. You license it.

I'm guessing it's a conservative estimate that at least half of all Vista users have already violated their EULAs. My wife sometimes wonders why I buy some software, and pirate other software. The answer, I guess, is because some people provide you with quality software at a reasonable prices with few restrictions, and others charge your $400 to license broken bloatware.

All of which is why I'm considering buying a full copy of XP now, before it goes away again (remember when Vista first came out, retail copies of XP disappeared almost immediately for months until people demanded it back). (Since I currently only have an OEM-installed version without a true install disc, and it will NOT like being installed in another PC or hard drive--HP has several little things buried in their version to prevent that, or even "major" upgrades to this PC itself). Then, maybe when Vista SP2 comes out, I can/will upgrade. Last I saw, XP is supposed to be supported until 2014.

If it wasn't for the fact that I wanted Media Center for my HTPC and I happened to have an OEM copy of Vista Ultimate, I wouldn't use it. If Microsoft is going to support XP until 2014, stick with it and wait and see how Vienna turns out. That's my plan for my main desktop.

[David Hingtgen]

I've been trying to determine EXACTLY what HP's BIOS tattoo knows---I'm wondering if I could buy a new MISB hard drive of the exact type it came with, and "fool" the system that nothing's changed. Though the only reference I can find to something like that said it didn't work--but 99% of the time people are also trying to change or replace the motherboard at that time, and it won't accept a new board, even if IDENTICAL. I'm keeping the board.

My hard drive shows no signs of problems, and every test/scan I run says it's fine--but this is the longest I've ever used a hard drive, and I fear it just randomly dying for no reason in the next 12 months. (isn't that how it usually happens?)

Since my PC got new memory, graphics card, and PSU a year ago, it should be pretty "bullet-proof" parts-wise to last a while longer. But I do fear "random hard drive death". (I stupidly got rid of my fully-functioning-but-old PC's tower a few months ago, so I have no backup now)

[mikeszekely]

I've been trying to determine EXACTLY what HP's BIOS tattoo knows---I'm wondering if I could buy a new MISB hard drive of the exact type it came with, and "fool" the system that nothing's changed. Though the only reference I can find to something like that said it didn't work--but 99% of the time people are also trying to change or replace the motherboard at that time, and it won't accept a new board, even if IDENTICAL. I'm keeping the board.

My hard drive shows no signs of problems, and every test/scan I run says it's fine--but this is the longest I've ever used a hard drive, and I fear it just randomly dying for no reason in the next 12 months. (isn't that how it usually happens?)

Since my PC got new memory, graphics card, and PSU a year ago, it should be pretty "bullet-proof" parts-wise to last a while longer. But I do fear "random hard drive death". (I stupidly got rid of my fully-functioning-but-old PC's tower a few months ago, so I have no backup now)

Exactly how long have you had the hard drive? I mean, I've had my current desktop of about five years, and for about half that time, it's been on (not sleeping, fully on) 24/7 (mostly grabbing stuff from bittorrent... to be fair, I added a second drive about a year ago specifically for bittorrent downloads). I'm on my third power supply, second video card, second optical drive, second case fan, and haven't had the side panel on the case since I put the third power supply in (in a nutshell, five years ago I didn't know jack about computers and bought a VAIO, which used a proprietary 320w PSU that they wanted over $300 to replace... ultimately I replaced it with a generic ATX 500w PSU that I got for maybe $25, and since it doesn't fit in the case, it sits on the desk next to the computer). I've moved the computer from my desk to my living room and back to my desk. For a short time, I was experimenting with booting Mac OS X on that VAIO with a spare hard drive, and I was constantly switching the cables between the drives. Through all of that, I've never had a hard drive issue.

Now, neither of us are naive enough to believe that hard drive issues never happen, especially in externals. However you do it, it's a good idea to make backups (mostly I just back up my documents and media files and just reinstall software as needed from their original discs or downloads). But I don't see any reason to replace a known good hard drive just because it seems a little old.

EDIT: Hard drives, AFAIK, don't just up and die. They die for one of three main reasons.

1.) The drive is physically damaged. This is like you dropped it, banged it, or the computer suddenly lost power while the drive was writing and the write head collided with the drive platter. If you've got an UPS, unplug your computer during thunderstorms, your computer is on a stable surface, and you don't remove and start messing with the drive, you don't have to worry about this.

2.) Electrostatic discharge. Unplug the computer during storms, and ground yourself/wear a nerd bracelet when working on the computer, maybe occasionally get some compressed air and blow the dust out, and you should be fine. And in any case, you're more likely to blow the PSU or motherboard than the hard drive.

3.) The drive motor, platter, or write head wears out. Hard drives have moving parts, so it happens. But it's gradual, and when it starts to wear, you'll start to have read/write errors, or bad sectors will start to pop up.

So, the first two you can pretty much avoid if you take reasonable precaution, and you'll know if the third one's coming.

Edited February 9, 2008 by mikeszekely

[JB0]

Oh, and when you buy Vista, you don't own it. You license it. The TOS specifically states that:

Yeah, I know. Talk about not owning your computer anymore....

That's not new. The exact wording is, but the concept is expressed in pretty much every software license ever. Even most open-source licenses explicitly deny ownership except to the original author.

[VF-19]

My hard drive shows no signs of problems, and every test/scan I run says it's fine--but this is the longest I've ever used a hard drive, and I fear it just randomly dying for no reason in the next 12 months. (isn't that how it usually happens?)

I wouldn't worry too much about sudden hard-drive death syndrome. I've got, and use, drives that are about 10-15 years old. They still work just fine. Then again, I pretty much baby my stuff, so it tends to last quite a while.

[David Hingtgen]

Hard drive is from late '03. My main concern is that if it DOES go bad, I am practically forced to get a whole new PC and OS, due to HP's little tattoos embedded in the mobo and HDD. But if I replace it now I can work around it (I think). Might be worth experimenting with. $64 for peace of mind... (of course, HP does sell new ones for $325, but then the tattoo thing is so little-known within the company that it usually won't work anyways because they forgot to set it up for YOUR PC, and then you'll have to pay another hundred bucks to the geek squad at BestBuy (they are about the only place HP allows to tattoo outside the factory) so you've got a $425 HP-compliant HDD)

[VF-19]

Hard drive is from late '03. My main concern is that if it DOES go bad, I am practically forced to get a whole new PC and OS, due to HP's little tattoos embedded in the mobo and HDD. But if I replace it now I can work around it (I think). Might be worth experimenting with. $64 for peace of mind... (of course, HP does sell new ones for $325, but then the tattoo thing is so little-known within the company that it usually won't work anyways because they forgot to set it up for YOUR PC, and then you'll have to pay another hundred bucks to the geek squad at BestBuy (they are about the only place HP allows to tattoo outside the factory) so you've got a $425 HP-compliant HDD)

Who made the drive? My only concern would be if there were two words on the drive: IBM Deskstar. If it's by Seagate, Western Digital etc... And you've taken care of it, it'll last you about another 5-10 years (maybe more), easy.

[David Hingtgen]

Seagate. Specifically, a ST3160021A. 160gig, 7200rpm.

Quick question---are faster(RPM) ones noisier?

[VF-19]

Seagate. Specifically, a ST3160021A. 160gig, 7200rpm.

Quick question---are faster(RPM) ones noisier?

As a rule: Yes. But it really depends on the drive; some will be noiser, some will be quieter. I've got 4 hard drives in my computer (3 seagates, and 1 maxtor), and I barely hear any of them. The computer case is about 3-4 feet away from me as I type this.

Oh, and you may want to consider 2 hard drives. A small one (40-80 gigs) that's just used to boot the computer, and a large one (320 and up) to store all your files. The nice thing about this setup, is that every time you have to reformat and install the OS, you don't have to spend time backing up everything to DVDs, just move them over to the storage drive.

My computer is set up like so:

C: 74.5 (80) Gb Boot Drive

D: 189 (200) Gb Warehouse I

E: 298 (320) Gb Warehouse II

H: 298 (320) Gb Warehouse III

If you're wondering why the gap between the E and H drives it's because the H drive got added to the system after I did the inital format about a year ago. I know it seems silly that I have a total of 920 Gigs of storage space, but it just happened to work out that way. Each 320/200 Gig drive cost $100, and the 80 Gig cost I think $50.

Also, I too am building a new PC. I'm recycling my video cards (2x 1900 XTX), Optical Drives, Hard Drives, the Sound card, and I'm getting a new Mobo (ASUS P5K-E), CPU (Intel Wolfdale 8400), and RAM (2 gigs). Should have the whole thing built by next week. All for a cool $700ish (final pricing needs to be finalized). I'm still waiting on the CPU. Those wolfdale cores are rather popular...

All in all it should be a major major step up from the Athlon 64 3700 I'm using at the moment.

[mikeszekely]

As a rule: Yes. But it really depends on the drive; some will be noiser, some will be quieter. I've got 4 hard drives in my computer (3 seagates, and 1 maxtor), and I barely hear any of them. The computer case is about 3-4 feet away from me as I type this.

Oh, and you may want to consider 2 hard drives. A small one (40-80 gigs) that's just used to boot the computer, and a large one (320 and up) to store all your files. The nice thing about this setup, is that every time you have to reformat and install the OS, you don't have to spend time backing up everything to DVDs, just move them over to the storage drive.

My computer is set up like so:

C: 74.5 (80) Gb Boot Drive

D: 189 (200) Gb Warehouse I

E: 298 (320) Gb Warehouse II

H: 298 (320) Gb Warehouse III

If you're wondering why the gap between the E and H drives it's because the H drive got added to the system after I did the inital format about a year ago. I know it seems silly that I have a total of 920 Gigs of storage space, but it just happened to work out that way. Each 320/200 Gig drive cost $100, and the 80 Gig cost I think $50.

Also, I too am building a new PC. I'm recycling my video cards (2x 1900 XTX), Optical Drives, Hard Drives, the Sound card, and I'm getting a new Mobo (ASUS P5K-E), CPU (Intel Wolfdale 8400), and RAM (2 gigs). Should have the whole thing built by next week. All for a cool $700ish (final pricing needs to be finalized). I'm still waiting on the CPU. Those wolfdale cores are rather popular...

All in all it should be a major major step up from the Athlon 64 3700 I'm using at the moment.

I hope you're not putting Vista on it, although at least if you are, you're using ATI video cards.

Just ranting now, but the HTPC I built was fine for playing Neverwinter Nights and surfing the net, but crashed constantly when running iTunes, WMP, Joost, other games, etc. I might have mentioned this before. It doesn't seem to be a thermal issues or a power issue. After much research, it seems NVDIA drivers still don't place nice with Vista. So I backed up my stuff and decided to wipe it and install XP. I was getting "NTLDR is missing, press CTRL+ALT+DEL to restart" messages... I thought maybe my copy of XP wasn't bootable, so I borrowed another, but I got the same error. I'm googling, and trying to boot other discs for two hours before I stuff my original XP disc in and start banging on the keyboard in frustration... and that's when I realized that even though the BIOS is set to boot from CD first (and certainly some CDs did boot fine), I was supposed to hit the "Enter" key when it said "Reading from CD."

Still haven't got XP installed. Overscan on my TV means I can't read what's at the bottom. More frustration before I shut it down for the night and checked the net... how am I supposed to remember that F8 is the key for agreeing to the EULA (which I don't, really, but my computer doesn't have to know that).

I think I'm going to wait awhile before I upgrade my desktop. I mean, I know it needs it when the integrated video on the HTPC is better than the card in my desktop (which isn't worth upgrading anymore since my board uses AGP), but I want to wait until everyone's on the same page. Too many PSUs with four pin CPU connectors on mobos that want eight right now (including my HTPC set up, and although EVGA says it's okay to use the four pin connector, a part of me is afraid that's what's causing system instability and that the HTPC isn't going to run any better with XP).

[VF-19]

Nope. No Vista for this PC. Sticking with good old XP. Personally I think Vista is a huge misstep for Microsoft. That and they should have NEVER made Direct X 10 Vista only...

[Duke Togo]

Nope. No Vista for this PC. Sticking with good old XP. Personally I think Vista is a huge misstep for Microsoft. That and they should have NEVER made Direct X 10 Vista only...

Its not as if DX10 has shown to be any great shakes performance wise.

[VF-19]

Its not as if DX10 has shown to be any great shakes performance wise.

I think that has more to do with the lack of maturity on the hardware part. I mean, look at when DirectX 9 hardware came out, it wasn't all that great either. I think that within the next few generations (and driver revisions) of DX10 cards they'll get up to speed.

[Oihan]

...I'm looking to buy a portable MP3 player with a large capacity, long battery life, and is able to play .FLAC files. I've read that HDD have the largest storage capacity, with Micro-HDD having the second largest...and flash having the smallest capacities. ...I just don't know which brand or what make to get. Would any of you have any recommendations as to what some one should look into? Thanks!

Edited February 11, 2008 by Oihan

[azrael]

...I'm looking to buy a portable MP3 player with a large capacity, long battery life, and is able to play .FLAC files. I've read that HDD have the largest storage capacity, with Micro-HDD having the second largest...and flash having the smallest capacities. ...I just don't know which brand or what make to get. Would any of you have any recommendations as to what some one should look into? Thanks!

Have you looked into any of these?