Nighthawks finally go Grey

[Nied]

A Nighthawk in Raptor's clothing

Looks like the Air Force is starting to wise up. This was something that has always bugged me about the F-117. Black has to be one of the worst colors to paint an aircraft if you don't want to be seen (with the noteable exception of high altitude operations). In the vast majority of cases it makes your plane stick out like a sore thumb, so much so that the RAF now paints it's trainers black.

Edited April 6, 2004 by Nied

[Gaijin]

I read about that in Combat Aircraft magazine a lil while ago...isn't it because F-117's are going to be used during day missions too now? The black was mainly because of the night missions I believe.

[Nied]

Black is a poor color for any operations (except really high altitude like the Blackbird or U-2, or situations where you want to be seen like the RAF trainers). The lighter grey they're painting them now isn't ideal for night operations but it is superior to the current black. One of the contributing reasons why that F-117 got shot down over Kosovo was because it dived below the cloud layer and was spotted against the clouds by visually guided AAA which proceeded to shoot it full of holes. If it had been painted grey it probably could have made it back above the clouds before it was spotted.

[warrhead]

I seem to recall that studies had proven that the optimal color for night-time ops had been a powdery pinkish-gray, but the brass in the Air Force would rather endanger some of their best pilots than have gay pink fighter aircraft... so they were painted black. I'm glad to see that the problem is being addressed.

[Max Jenius]

I seem to recall that studies had proven that the optimal color for night-time ops had been a powdery pinkish-gray, but the brass in the Air Force would rather endanger some of their best pilots than have gay pink fighter aircraft... so they were painted black. I'm glad to see that the problem is being addressed.

That's so stupid too. I'd fly a rainbow plane if it kept me alive in combat.

[Memphis Egyptologist]

The first F-117s were initially painted in a variety of schemes to mask the faceting upon the aircraft, then were painted a gray color, and finally painted black due to USAF orders

[Phyrox]

If I remember correctly, it is only flat black which is poor for night flying. Gloss (i.e. shiny) black is supposed to work pretty well, assumiong no clouds.

But then again I don't read much about aviation past 1945, so this could have been a naive WWII notion.

Although I have heard that greyish-pinks or just general grey are better than either flat or gloss black.

[Lightning]

I seem to recall that studies had proven that the optimal color for night-time ops had been a powdery pinkish-gray, but the brass in the Air Force would rather endanger some of their best pilots than have gay pink fighter aircraft... so they were painted black.  I'm glad to see that the problem is being addressed.

That's so stupid too. I'd fly a rainbow plane if it kept me alive in combat.

i'd fly a BLUE plane if it kept me alive in combat....(and everyone should know, i REALLY, REALLY hate blue)

[Apollo Leader]

When the first developmental F-117's were being flown at Groom Lake, the first F-117 was flown with a camo job on its first few flights (ditto with the Have Blue protoype). After that, the F-117 test fleet were flown around with a gray paint job.

Lockheed proved that gray would be better at night time then black, but the Air Force wanted black and as Ben Rich said "He who controls the gold, makes the rules!"

As for the F-117 shot down 5 years ago, there is still no official version of the story. Some sources say that the Serbs were able to track the F-117's to a certain degree on radar because the were flying out of the same base out of Ityaly with conventional aircraft and were flying the same patterns, thus making it easier to track. Just because an aircraft has a low RCS does NOT mean it's invisible.

As for the F-117 returning to its gray roots, the A-10 went through the same story... started gray, went to European 1 during the 80's/early 90's then went back to a light gray!

[David Hingtgen]

And yet another version of the story is that the F-117 flew the exact same track 3 nights in a row, low, above a high hill, getting just within range of a shoulder-fired rocket. If there's no IR or radar guidance to defeat, stealth is worthless. If you can actually see/hear the plane, and predict where and when it'll be, it's not hard to shoot it down.

Edited April 7, 2004 by David Hingtgen

[Nied]

I always figured it was a combination of factors. The Serbs changed the arrangement of thier radars faster than the Air Force thought they would, thus the carefully ploted flight plan the USAF had drawn up around Serb radar installations actually sent it right through them. As soon as the Nighthawk's pilot saw a radar lock on his RWR he took evasive action, which included a dive. Unfortunetly the dive took him under the cloud deck, with the still shining city lights illuminating them the plane stood out like a sore thumb against the clouds. After that it was an easy matter for any AAA gunner to start blasting away. To make matters worse any bullet holes in the plane would have caused it's radar cross section to blossom, making it easey prey for any radar guided SAMs in the area.

[mikeszekely]

According to what I read, the USAF brass in charge didn't believe that stealth would really work, so they insisted that the Nighthawk be painted black so as to force it to be used only for night ops.

[Zentrandude]

i remember some guy saying that they tracked it using lots of airport radar stations and triangulate its coarse or something like that.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

another version is that a mig 29 pilot shot it down. one of the poopular aircraft mags credits the kill to im they even had an interview talkin about it with him./

[Memphis Egyptologist]

When the first developmental F-117's were being flown at Groom Lake, the first F-117 was flown with a camo job on its first few flights (ditto with the Have Blue protoype).  After that, the F-117 test fleet were flown around with a gray paint job.

That's what I was trying to say as I was going to post pictures, but I guess the ones on my computer were too large. Here is a photo of Senior Trend Full Scale Development (FSD) 780 in flight over Nevada with the facet masking scheme:

Here is Have Blue in flight in a shade of gray:

Have Blue 1002 at Burbank:

Enjoy!

[David Hingtgen]

MiG-29? Doubt it. AFAIK, they've got a pretty piss-poor, weak radar. (At least the early ones, and I doubt top-of-the-line upgraded ones were around) Not the best thing for hunting stealths.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

from what i recall he reportedly got it with a IR missle and may have used ISRT to track.

althoguh i really think its jsut enemy propaganda a sam or AAA kill is more likely.

[Hybridchild]

MiG-29? Doubt it. AFAIK, they've got a pretty piss-poor, weak radar. (At least the early ones, and I doubt top-of-the-line upgraded ones were around) Not the best thing for hunting stealths.

According to my friends brother that flew them with the German air force the cockpit syetems are about 40 years out of date! We where talking about that rumor a couple of years back he said the only way it could have happened is if the 117 flew into the migs firing line and became a target of oppertunity

Hybridchild

[muswp1]

I wasn't aware that the Serbs even had any MiG-29's five years ago. I always thought it was lucky AAA fire that got it.

[David Hingtgen]

IIRC, MiG-29 radar systems actually use vacuum tubes. Airframe: good. Avionics: bad.

As for IR---F-117's have a *tiny* IR signature. They are quite sleek, little drag for kinetic heating. And their exhaust is about as cool as a jet engine's can possibly be. It'd be one heck of an advanced IR sensor to lock on.

[Memphis Egyptologist]

Finally figured how to get this off my hard drive. Here is FSD 780 taxing during its first flight in 1981. Note the camouflage to mask the faceted design of the F-117 from prying eyes.

Edited April 11, 2004 by Memphis Egyptologist

[legios]

The F-117 was downed by a SAM not AAA. The reasons for the downing are complex and I hope that people that do know are not the ones talking about it on this forum.

Legios

[KingNor]

The F-117 was downed by a SAM not AAA. The reasons for the downing are complex and I hope that people that do know are not the ones talking about it on this forum.

Legios

agreed, i think the level of technolgoy to shoot down the 117 goes a bit beyond being able to see it. if you can see it with your eyes, but it can't be tracked by you're heat seekers or radar guided missles.. you're going to have trouble shooting it down.

that doesn't count for anti-aircraft guns, wich do still use sight, and enemy fighters.

though the 117 isn't really suited to aircraft to aircraft fighting, since it maxes out arould like 600 700 mph if i remember correct (i know its way slow as far as modern fighters go) so i think they've always been pretty carful to keep them out of those situations

my point, it has way more to do than the color its painted.

oh, btw, i belive the black paint was some kind of special radar dampening thing, maybe they just finally were able to create it in a color other than black? i dunno

[Anubis]

The F-117 was downed by a SAM not AAA.  The reasons for the downing are complex and I hope that people that do know are not the ones talking about it on this forum.

Legios

agreed, i think the level of technolgoy to shoot down the 117 goes a bit beyond being able to see it. if you can see it with your eyes, but it can't be tracked by you're heat seekers or radar guided missles.. you're going to have trouble shooting it down.

that doesn't count for anti-aircraft guns, wich do still use sight, and enemy fighters.

though the 117 isn't really suited to aircraft to aircraft fighting, since it maxes out arould like 600 700 mph if i remember correct (i know its way slow as far as modern fighters go) so i think they've always been pretty carful to keep them out of those situations

my point, it has way more to do than the color its painted.

oh, btw, i belive the black paint was some kind of special radar dampening thing, maybe they just finally were able to create it in a color other than black? i dunno

Radar absorbant paint is one of the things on the stealths, to the point you had to repaint the screw heads after you take a panel off if I remember what I was told before correctly, the F-22 and F-35 should also be getting a type of grey radar absorbant paint. Or am I wrong?

[David Hingtgen]

There's paint, then there's RAM. And some RAM comes in a spray can.

It's all generally black but I don't know if you need to use special paint to overcoat it. (Even B-2's and F-117's have insignia, warnings, etc painted on). So there's either grey radar-absorbing paint, or you can put regular paint over RAM sheets or RA-paint.

And of course, there's the "goopy" RAM used to recover exposed screw-heads, since there's no stealth-screws.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

wow. Hey hjow are these photos of have blue made public? isnt that the stuff the govt dont want us to see(fall into potential enemy hands?)

[Memphis Egyptologist]

This photo of Have Blue 1001, presumably at Groom Lake, was released by accident around 1991 in Aviation Week & Space Technology 134, no. 16 (April 22, 1991): 30. The other photos have trickled out from time to time, and are on the Net. I'd have to dig through my more recent books to see which ones have photos of Have Blue 1001 and 1002. Mind you that much more from Have Blue and Senior Trend's testing phase remains classified, such as camera footage when one of the FSD F-117s lost a tail and landed safely

[Apollo Leader]

wow. Hey hjow are these photos of have blue made public? isnt that the stuff the govt dont want us to see(fall into potential enemy hands?)

The first picture of the first of the two Have Blue (with it's extra pitot tube and camo job) was released to the public back in 1991. Over the next few years pictures of the second aircraft (in its gray finish) were alse declassified. To my knowledge, no additional pictures or video of the two aircraft have since been released. Pictures of Northrop's Have Blue proposal is even rarer; only an artist rendering and one grainy black and white picture of one of the RCS pole test models have ever been released.

[Apollo Leader]

This photo of Have Blue 1001, presumably at Groom Lake, was released by accident around 1991 in Aviation Week & Space Technology 134, no. 16 (April 22, 1991): 30. The other photos have trickled out from time to time, and are on the Net. I'd have to dig through my more recent books to see which ones have photos of Have Blue 1001 and 1002. Mind you that much more from Have Blue and Senior Trend's testing phase remains classified, such as camera footage when one of the FSD F-117s lost a tail and landed safely

So far, that set of pictures are the only ones of 1001 ever released.

[Memphis Egyptologist]

Pictures of Northrop's Have Blue proposal is even rarer;  only an artist rendering and one grainy black and white picture of one of the RCS pole test models have ever been released.

Northrop's Stealth fighter proposal presumably only existed as a full size RCS model and a few small scale wind tunnel models. I wonder if the reason an artist's rendering and a bad B&W photo of the RCS model have been released is because the same team worked on Tacit Blue? Tacit Blue was only declassified in the mid 1990s and not much else released other than photos of it in flight and a brief ceremony when the USAF dedicated it to the Air Force Museum.

Tacit Blue:

Edited April 12, 2004 by Memphis Egyptologist

[Noyhauser]

Why did the F-117 get shot down?

#1 it was a SA-3 battery that did shot it down. Three causes were ruled out…there was no hinging stuck on the Bay doors, neither a decent below 15000 meters or AAA a factor. It seems that the operational role of the F-117 had something to do with it. Due to the terrain, the F-117 had to often bank, which would increase the radar cross-section by a factor of 100 times or more.

Three errors were reported…. SEAD did not adequately sweep the area, specifically ELINT, which failed to detect three low frequency radars that could possibly detect the F-117.

Secondly the F-117 did have a Jammer nearby, but the EA-6B was too far away to provide jamming. Thirdly (as mentioned earlier) because of the Dayton accords the F-117 had to fly the same route into Serbia, outside of Bosnian airspace. This may have allowed the Position their radar emitters in the optimal position to see the fighters. The F-117 is far more easily detectable from above and the side. Its been suggested that the Serbian air defences probably had an intermitted lock on the F-117 after it passed and made a best guess from a missile downranged, utilizing a timed fuse in the proximity of the stealth aircraft's flightpath.

Edited April 12, 2004 by Noyhauser

[Gaijin]

Oddly, only on MW can I find hard to find or rare pics of planes.

[legios]

edited

Edited April 12, 2004 by legios

[KingNor]

...made a best guess from a missile downranged, utilizing a timed fuse in the proximity of the stealth aircraft's flightpath.

firing missles at "best guess" trajectorys to hit planes sounds highly suspect to me.

i'm thinking something happend to compromise its stealth. i realy dont' think anyone was blindly lobbing missles where they "thought" it was going to be simply because they saw it a few other days in the same area.

weirder stuf has happend i guess. nothings perfect you know, it IS warfare, stuff gets shot down.

[Noyhauser]

firing missles at "best guess" trajectorys to hit planes sounds highly suspect to me.

i'm thinking something happend to compromise its stealth. i realy dont' think anyone was blindly lobbing missles where they "thought" it was going to be simply because they saw it a few other days in the same area.

weirder stuf has happend i guess. nothings perfect you know, it IS warfare, stuff gets shot down.

did you read my post? The F-117 isn't some absolutely invisible vehicle. Never did I say they were shooting blindly, however the Fighter probably gave off intermittent signals, while flying past which they used to give a best guess to fire. It has been also said that they probably staggerd the radar sites to give the best signal possible.

The Airforce Ruled out ANYTHING that may have compromised stealth... the fighter was perfectly operational.

Edited April 12, 2004 by Noyhauser