AVF Upgrade Candidates

[GuardianGrey]

On the LCF, JBO, you are making points, though I will make a few;

• The YF-12 (unofficially known as the 'Black Beast," which was a based off the recon SR-71 & the A-12 was the CIA call sign of the single seat version there of; all to help spread misinformation about) was a mess on its mechanics
• Due to the low profile of the airframe, the turbines needed an external staring mechanism (consisting of two Buick V-8 racing engines in tandem).while on the ground & can not reignite while in flight (a report of an SR-71 flying cross county; started in Maryland, was flying over the Rocky Mtn. 90 minutes later & flamed out on a turbine and was ordered back & it took them 6 hours to do so on one engine),
• With the retirement from service, we will never know the A-12/SR-71 true top speed (the original calculated maximum past after the second speed record for a manned jet aircraft) due to the last one was reported as only being 75% power. Some engineers that have used newer computer models of the materials and engine output data ran simulations & believe that the Blackbird could handle hypersonic (Mach 5+) speeds.
• The VF-4 and both versions of the VF-14 Vampire (Macross M3 & Macross 7-PLUS are the cannon VF-14; I like the 7-PLUS version myself) seems to be influenced by the A-12/SR-71, so I see your point for LCF.
• Like the F-104 Starfighter, the Blackbeast was to be a high-speed interceptor (as in, not designed to dogfight, but to hit-&-run).
  The original though for this was because of the Mig-25, which USAF Intel misidentified as an aerial superiority fighter (it was a high-speed interceptor itself, that was also used for recon), & having one clocked at Mach 3+ (an recon configuration that was fleeing anti-air defenses in Israel & melted its turbines down in the process) made the "need" seem apparent.
  The idea for converting the A-12/SR-71 airframe from recon to missile carrier was later abandoned as to costly, and the YF-15 had already started as a cheaper(?) solution.
• The A-12/SR-71 are rumored to actually fly so high that they start to loose power & flight control (atmosphere was getting too thin)

In the Macross Continuum, the SF-3 Lancer II & the Zentradi Gnerl Fighter Pod seem to fit the interceptor role well.(in theory at least, series reality was something else)

So, for a VF unit based off the F-104, we need a way to add some meat to it (as it was known as "the missile with a man in it" due to it being mostly engine & cockpit), so let us look at the 'family';

• The X-15A, with its conformal tanks would give the Mass to house the extra parts, though 'ground effect' off the wings are most likely not. As a Space fighter (like the Zentradi VF-XX out of Macross II) it might have promise, though that is my opinion
• Lockheed CL-1200/X-27; the beefed up F-104 younger sibling that got beat-out by the McD-D F-4, GD YF-16 & Northrop YF-5 & YF-17. The Lancer would have the additional Mass for transformation and slightly larger (and higher mounted) wings for 'Ground Effect'.
• Lockheed CL-704: This frankie-monster for the USN took a F-104 and placed a nacelle with 7 compact vertical fans in each on both wings. Canceled after technical difficulties.
• EWR VJ 101: A German VTOL idea using tilt engine nacelles with a F-104 airframe. Similar to the Bell D-188A for the USA & both were projects were cancelled by their respective militaries.

The later most gave me an Idea, though it might suck and would no longer class as a single engine VF. --WARNING-RANT/BRAINSTORMING-WARNING--
Starting with the Lockheed CL-1200 Lancer, change tail to a double vertical (like the F-14/15) or Butterfly (like the YF-21) & add wing nacelles with an engine in them (like the YF-29 or the EWR)

For its transformations, have the base (body/arms/legs) sequence be like that of the VF-22 though the wings slide/pivot back & in like the YF-29 (or like the VF-25 with the FAST packs on and not folding out the wings in Fighter/GERWALK mode).

[Valkyrie Driver]

I guess I misunderstood

In reality, you don't dogfight above the mach. Macross might be different. I doubt it though, G-forces are G-forces, and the human body can only take so much. I do see a lot of the blackbird in the VF-4, but I also see some P-38 (In the triple nacelle arrangement) the cockpit nacelle terminates just after the head unit, and if you look at the blackbird it has a spine that goes all the way aft, I thought that was pretty cool.

The plans I had always seen for an armed blackbird were A numbered. Either way an armed blackbird would have been pretty useless. The only century series fighter I liked was the F-106. Maybe that's because my dad flew it. Of all the planes he flew, it was his favorite. I'm particularly partial to the Fourth Generation Jet fighters, those were the ones that we all knew when I was growing up.

[GuardianGrey]

You are right, Valkyrie Diver, most dogfight are sub-sonic. though few actually engage in anymore.

Most today are high-speed interceptions with a missile lock/launch before either party sees the other.

With the coming of the semi-stealth fighters like the F-22, F-35, Pak Fa/T-50 & like fifth gen fighters; the radar for missile guidance is getting to the point were dogfighting might become a required skill again, if they do not drone pilots out of jobs.

The Macross X-9/QF-4000 (AIF-7S)/AIF-9V(V-9) allowed to act independently is a fictional example,
The panicle of AVF capable attack maneuvers and weapons delivery, with no conscious on why it just did what it was ordered to.

That is why the Inertia Canceling System is needed in the Marcoss-verse, so humans play 'nice' with each other.

[Seto Kaiba]

In reality, you don't dogfight above the mach. Macross might be different. I doubt it though, G-forces are G-forces, and the human body can only take so much.

In reality, you need a lot more power than most fighters have to go supersonic... in Macross, most VFs can get supersonic at the drop of a hat thanks to rather excessive amounts of engine power. Pilots do sometimes go supersonic during dogfights, but it's usually shown to be a move to evade a missile attack, lose a pursuer, or gain some much-needed breathing room.

As we saw with Guld in Plus, you do NOT want to try aggressive sustained dogfighting at supersonic speeds...

The Macross X-9/QF-4000 (AIF-7S)/AIF-9V(V-9) allowed to act independently is a fictional example,

The panicle of AVF capable attack maneuvers and weapons delivery, with no conscious on why it just did what it was ordered to.

That is why the Inertia Canceling System is needed in the Marcoss-verse, so humans play 'nice' with each other.

Ah, that's also incorrect. The Ghost "X-9" had fully autonomous, fluid operation thanks to (illegal) bio-neural processing technology, but that technology was left out of the production model (QF-4000/AIF-7S) used by the New UN Forces because of the fallout of the Sharon Apple incident surrounding the prototype.

Macross Galaxy's AIF-9V and Luca Angeloni's three Ghosts did have the autonomous operation capability, but that was an "off-the-books" modification for the reason above...

Also, there are no inertia canceling systems in Macross... the inertia store converter (ISC) is an inertia capacitor, which displaces g-forces and returns them to the airframe in a controlled fashion, essentially "smoothing the peaks" of the g-forces on the airframe. They were pushed ahead in development because the Vajra became a threat, the Ghost isn't described as being that much of a factor.

[Valkyrie Driver]

You are right, Valkyrie Diver, most dogfight are sub-sonic. though few actually engage in anymore.

Most today are high-speed interceptions with a missile lock/launch before either party sees the other.

With the coming of the semi-stealth fighters like the F-22, F-35, Pak Fa/T-50 & like fifth gen fighters; the radar for missile guidance is getting to the point were dogfighting might become a required skill again, if they do not drone pilots out of jobs.

We've seen it throughout history, that we develop technologies, and then we develop countermeasures, and then we improve the original tech, developing countermeasures to the countermeasures. Radar will get better and so will the guidance systems. Dogfighting isn't dead, Vietnam, Gulf War 1, and Kosovo have taught us that we need to keep that skill. We have many enemies with air forces, and we'd have a bit of a challenge. Drones will never be able to replace a manned fighter. The situational awareness required is unattainable. No fighter pilot is going to accept that a drone can do it better.

I heard it said that drones are for the 3 D missions:

Dangerous - Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses or Air Interdiction in SAM saturated areas, or other potential one way trips.

Dirty - High radiation zones, of particular interest to the ground drones, and low flying dronecopters.

Dull - Missions that require long dwell times, recon or patrols.

In these instances crews would be in great discomfort or peril. These situations are the ones I agree with in using drones. I do not believe that drones will replace manned aircraft at all. We will see more and more drones but it's not a viable military strategy.

In reality, you need a lot more power than most fighters have to go supersonic... in Macross, most VFs can get supersonic at the drop of a hat thanks to rather excessive amounts of engine power. Pilots do sometimes go supersonic during dogfights, but it's usually shown to be a move to evade a missile attack, lose a pursuer, or gain some much-needed breathing room.

As we saw with Guld in Plus, you do NOT want to try aggressive sustained dogfighting at supersonic speeds...

I'll acknowledge that, the key to any fight is to make space when it gets too close. Sustained supersonic maneuvers would be hard on the body, even with the ICS. So I think it's safe to assume that in atmo it wouldn't be happening a lot.

[Valkyrie Driver]

Oh, in reference to a single engine VF, the X-32 could also make a decent basis.

[GuardianGrey]

You are right, Seto Kaiba, I mislabeled the system for the ISC, though it seems you did understand what I was trying to reference.

On the drones in Macross Plus & Frontier, you are right that the full-autonomous drones are very limited (due to the "bad Apple" incident).

Even though I included the X-9 & the AIV-9 in my drone statement, like the effectiveness of the QF-2001 in Macross ZERO (equal to the other-sides cannon fodder in skill, though not in tactics), semi-autonomous drones can be just as dangerous in a fight as a full functioning one in the loss of life.

It is in DARPA reports and planning from a few years ago that they would like to make patrolling drones that if a target/person either fit a profile for a "hostile," or do not match that for a "friendly," that the target is eliminated and then the report is filed. With DoDAMM's aEgis system doing that as a fixed point 'defense', in theory how hard would it be to mobilize said system for active area denial/purging? The SWORD project is already doing that, though through human controlled operations, not (officially yet) with autonomous algorithms.

(There were unconfirmed reports of the SWORD units 'glitching' & suddenly targeting nearby "friendlies," the RoboCop scene with the ED-209 seems to ring a bell then)

Think of 'Project Insight' from the Captain America; The Winter Solider on how the algorithm help target the drone guns of the hela-carriers on people and all it needed was a push of a button. Final call was a human, though the machine/system/drone did all the harder work without question or conscious.

And, I agree with you, Valkyrie Driver, that no one will not be able to full eliminate pilots in all situations.

I can not easily see the X-32 as a VF. Maybe rearranging the intakes to help facilitate the transformations might help with my view though I considered it aesthetically "ugly" before, though its performance was better than that of the XF-35. For military hardware & strait craft/vehicles, capacities to me out way the looks.

I remember your opinion of the F-106 Delta Dart, and I know there are foreign craft that look like it though are high wing configured. With the high-wing, and using a VF-22 style transformation, I could see the Dart-style entry for a single engine VF

[Seto Kaiba]

You are right, Seto Kaiba, I mislabeled the system for the ISC, though it seems you did understand what I was trying to reference.

On the drones in Macross Plus & Frontier, you are right that the full-autonomous drones are very limited (due to the "bad Apple" incident).

"Illegal" would be a more accurate word... the technology was banned back then, and is still pretty much verboten.

[...] the effectiveness of the QF-2001 in Macross ZERO (equal to the other-sides cannon fodder in skill, though not in tactics), semi-autonomous drones can be just as dangerous in a fight as a full functioning one in the loss of life.

You mean the QF-2200D-A Ghost, which was only ever cited as being a capable dogfighter against Anti-Unification Alliance MiGs, not against the SV-51. There are allusions to stability issues with AI even on later models like the QF-3000E, and the only way that the UN Forces were able to achieve a Ghost that didn't need a human holding its hand was with illegal (and dangerous) technology that promptly blew up in their faces. In Macross, semi-autonomous drones seem to be rather less capable than a flesh-and-blood pilot in a VF, though they get used because they have the great virtue of being a LOT cheaper and easier to replace. They can be dangerous, yeah, but Macross is also conveniently a setting where most enemies against which drones would be used are not the kind of foes that could easily be confused for friendlies (and the ethical problems are pretty minimal).

I'll acknowledge that, the key to any fight is to make space when it gets too close. Sustained supersonic maneuvers would be hard on the body, even with the ICS. So I think it's safe to assume that in atmo it wouldn't be happening a lot.

Especially since pre-ISC Advanced Variable Fighters have an acknowledged problem with pushing the limits of human g-force tolerances... resulting in loss of control, smash-ups, etc.

Macross isn't shy about hiding it easier... doesn't Jan Neumann mention in Plus that the control issues on the YF-19 earned two test pilots posthumous promotions and sent two more to "take the health plan for a spin"? (To say nothing of the times Isamu is shown crashing the simulator.)

Edited March 9, 2015 by Seto Kaiba

[Valkyrie Driver]

Out of curiosity, is the VF-25 the first fighter equipped with the ICS? I don't recall any mention of it on the First generation AVF's.

[GuardianGrey]

I was going with what the name was at the Macross Mecha Manual site on designation, Seto Kaiba, though you got me wondering.

With the NEC/L.A.I. building the special computer/processor for the AIV-7 units of the Frontier Fleet , could not all of them in theory be able to act independent if given the code release?
(I have not seen the series, & can find no reference that the ones Luca Angeloni are the only units with said)

The ISC, Valkyrie Driver, was first (according to the Macross Continuum/Compendium) used during the Protoculture era in large craft (like the SDF-1 & Command ships) and smaller ones were used in the Q-Rau Battle-armor.

There was a reduced power unit that was tried in the YF-21, though due to cost & control issues was not included in the VF-22.

The YF-24 Evolution had a perfected miniaturized version that was latter used in the VF-25, VF-27 & later series units.

----- Returning to the Topic's Subject -----

I have read and thought allot since my first post and how I would update a fleets VF units with more modern tech as part of an AVF, though in Macross Frontier, the AVF trials were almost 20 years ago.

So my VF-19FXR Fragarach here, though pushing the limits with turbines, streghtening stress points & having an EX-gear cockpit would barely be keeping up with the new models like the VF-25 Messiah.

So, I was thinking other than just the Idea of the single turbine VF, is there a unit that has a frame large enough to hold all the new tech & possibly have room to spare?

Yes there is, though the one problem it has would have to be addressed first. That unit is the VF-3000 Crusader & the problem is the joint slippage there of.

If that issue would be solved (which with newer servos, most likely could), the newer/more compact and powerful turbines would allow it to have internal weapon bays (like the VF-11C & VF-19). With the space saved over from the older electronic systems being, newer ones like the Pin-point barrier, active stealth & ISC could be intergraded. Some would say it needs a newer/slick look, to me as long as it can do surface-to-orbit and bring the Pain, it is a winner for me.

[Andras]

Do you count the YF-24 as a fighter?

ninjas are everywhere it seems, even in big metal robots.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Andras

[Sildani]

As far as the Fragarach barely keeping up with VF-25s, isn't that the idea? The 25 is an update of the clean-sheet YF-24, which incorporated all the latest tech and integrated it cleanly, with no legacy systems or materials to get in the way.

The Fragarach and Crusader have the limitation of old materials and an inflexible design. Short of completely rebuilding them with the all new materials, they're already at a disadvantage from a weight and materials standpoint - and if you're going to go that far, you might as well go ahead and build new 24s, 25s, or even 27s for the same trouble.

What I'm trying to say: if your bored-out and lightened 19 can barely keep up with a new 25, I'd say you've done very, very well indeed.

[Mr March]

I was going with what the name was at the Macross Mecha Manual site on designation, Seto Kaiba, though you got me wondering.

My website has the correct designations. There are TWO Ghost craft in Macross Zero; the QF-2200 Ghost (which is the small, grey/black aircraft attached to the VF-0 Phoenix for the special attack/assault specification, aka "ANGEL". There is also the QF-2001 Ghost, a standalone unmanned aircraft.

[Seto Kaiba]

Out of curiosity, is the VF-25 the first fighter equipped with the ICS? I don't recall any mention of it on the First generation AVF's.

The first VF equipped with an inertia capacitor system was the YF-21, which used the same model (inertia vector control system) on the Queadluun-Rau.

The Inertia Store Converter technology used on the Macross Frontier VFs was first developed for the YF-24, and completed for the YF-24 Evolution prototype. If the New UN Forces adopted the VF-24 the way Master File seems to suggest, that would probably be the first fighter with ISC. Otherwise, chronologically speaking, it would probably be the VF-27, which was ahead of the VF-25 in its production schedule.

Great Mechanics.DX 9 mentions that the ISC technology IS compatible with certain first-gen AVFs like the VF-19 though, but things moved forward with a new AVF generation for a variety of reasons.

I was going with what the name was at the Macross Mecha Manual site on designation, Seto Kaiba, though you got me wondering.

Yeah, it appears that Macross Chronicle has overturned that particular designation, and now it's QF-2200D-A, while the old QF-2200D is now QF-2200D-B.

With the NEC/L.A.I. building the special computer/processor for the AIV-7 units of the Frontier Fleet , could not all of them in theory be able to act independent if given the code release?

(I have not seen the series, & can find no reference that the ones Luca Angeloni are the only units with said)

Theoretically, I suppose any QF-4000/AIF-7S could be upgraded with the same autonomous AI combat package that was present in Luca's three Ghosts (Simon, John, and Peter).

As far as Macross Chronicle has indicated*, the modification was an "informal" off-the-books arrangement, doubtless because that technology was prohibited by the New UN Forces, and only present on Luca's three Ghosts.

* See Macross Frontier mechanic sheet SMS 05A "RVF-25 Messiah" and Glossary 09A "Kim Saintlaurent" to "Queadluun-Rau".

The ISC, Valkyrie Driver, was first (according to the Macross Continuum/Compendium) used during the Protoculture era in large craft (like the SDF-1 & Command ships) and smaller ones were used in the Q-Rau Battle-armor.

... the Compendium says nothing of the sort.

The Queadluun-Rau with its inertia vector control system were introduced near the end of the Stellar Republic's dissolution conflict, it's the only pre-human airframe mentioned to possess the technology.

There was a reduced power unit that was tried in the YF-21, though due to cost & control issues was not included in the VF-22.

Nor does it say anything like this... the inertia vector control system in the YF-21 and VF-22 is explicitly said to be an improved and revised version of the Queadluun-Rau's.

My website has the correct designations. There are TWO Ghost craft in Macross Zero; the QF-2200 Ghost (which is the small, grey/black aircraft attached to the VF-0 Phoenix for the special attack/assault specification, aka "ANGEL". There is also the QF-2001 Ghost, a standalone unmanned aircraft.

'bout that... that designation was correct as of Chronicle's first edition, but changed in the second to both being QF-2200.

[GuardianGrey]

I am not going to argue, Seto Kaiba, though you might want to read the 'Design Features' portion of the entry for the YF-24 Evolution on the Macross Compendium.

http://macross.anime.net/wiki/YF-24_Evolution

Though I have no access to the Macross Chronicle publication, I have seen the toy/model referring to the stand-alone as the QF-2200D-A.

Though it was only as the QF-2200D as the 'Angel' parts with the VF-0S. Due to time of manufacture of the kits?

---------------- Back to Topic ------------

Though it might have been a cheaper (supposed non-transforming, as of V-Max; Vol. 2,Issue 6) & specialized VF, I wonder what one could do with the concept of the VF-5.

Considering the design was to had the mission inspiration of the F-5E Tiger II, with the performance specifications of the YF-2Y Sea Dart. http://macross.anime.net/wiki/VF-5

Though some might see that mission profile filled by the VA-3M, with its abilities.

[Mr March]

Yeah, it appears that Macross Chronicle has overturned that particular designation, and now it's QF-2200D-A, while the old QF-2200D is now QF-2200D-B.

'bout that... that designation was correct as of Chronicle's first edition, but changed in the second to both being QF-2200.

Are we sure about this? The Macross Compendium still has separate entries for them and just puts all the QF-2200 variants under that same profile.

I can make the changes to my website for the next update, but just want to be sure it's accurate before making a big change like that. Just so I can keep it all straight:

QF-2001 = QF-2200D-A (standalone mixed-patch colors silver and dark grey Ghost, the one with forward canards)

QF-2200 = QF-2200D-B (small black colored Ghost mounted on top of the VF-0 for the special attack/assault specification "ANGEL")

Edited March 11, 2015 by Mr March

[Seto Kaiba]

I am not going to argue, Seto Kaiba, though you might want to read the 'Design Features' portion of the entry for the YF-24 Evolution on the Macross Compendium.

http://macross.anime.net/wiki/YF-24_Evolution

Huh. So it does... though the way it's presented makes it sound like they're talking about gravity control and inertia capacitor tech like they're the same thing. I'm going to check that against the source it claims to be from (Macross Chronicle Tech sheet 01P). I shall return, armed with a definitive answer.

From other Macross Chronicle sheets, the IVCS and ISC are the same basic technology but at two different levels of advancement (or capability). The Q-Rhea spec has it mentioned the improved IVCS is good for about 18G maximum, while the fold quartz-based ISC is good for 27.5G.

Are we sure about this? The Macross Compendium still has separate entries for them and just puts all the QF-2200 variants under that same profile.

I can make the changes to my website for the next update, but just want to be sure it's accurate before making a big change like that. Just so I can keep it all straight:

QF-2001 = QF-2200D-A (standalone mixed-patch colors silver and dark grey Ghost, the one with forward canards)

QF-2200 = QF-2200D-B (small black colored Ghost mounted on top of the VF-0 for the special attack/assault specification "ANGEL")

Yeah... if you've still got your 1E Chronicle copy, check the old Macross Zero UN Mechanic sheet 04A against 2E's. The old one was QF-2001 Ghost / QF-2200D Ghost, while the new one is QF-2200D-A Ghost / QF-2200D-B Ghost. The D-A is the fighter variant that we saw as a stand-alone aircraft, the D-B is the recon variant that was modified into a booster for the VF-0.

[Valkyrie Driver]

Though it might have been a cheaper (supposed non-transforming, as of V-Max; Vol. 2,Issue 6) & specialized VF, I wonder what one could do with the concept of the VF-5.

Considering the design was to had the mission inspiration of the F-5E Tiger II, with the performance specifications of the YF-2Y Sea Dart. http://macross.anime.net/wiki/VF-5

Though some might see that mission profile filled by the VA-3M, with its abilities.

It's interesting that you bring up the F-5E. IRL it got a revision and upgrade to become the F-20 Tigershark. Where the two turbojet engines were replace by a single low bypass afterburning turbofan. So we have real world precedent for this line of discussion...

[Mr March]

Okay, I typically wait until I do the next update to correct errors like this, but since this thread is discussing the subject, I've uploaded a revised profile that just corrects the craft designation. The Macross Zero directory and the profile HTML, directory and graphics have all been updated with the finalized designation for the Ghost craft.

http://www.macross2.net/m3/macrosszero/macrosszero-index.html

Revising the QF-2200D-A profile with new Macross Chronicle trivia will have to wait until the impending website update. Thanks for the help Seto Kaiba and GuardianGrey.

[Valkyrie Driver]

Here's a burning question. Is the shield now characteristic of advanced variable fighter designs? I have to admit I'm torn on the shield, I want to hate it, because of my background, but at the same time it's well integrated into the designs. Also, the addition of the Knife, seems a bit too much like FMP! to me, but then I kinda like it at the same time for that very reason...

Anyone else with me?

[Mommar]

Here's a burning question. Is the shield now characteristic of advanced variable fighter designs? I have to admit I'm torn on the shield, I want to hate it, because of my background, but at the same time it's well integrated into the designs. Also, the addition of the Knife, seems a bit too much like FMP! to me, but then I kinda like it at the same time for that very reason...

Anyone else with me?

The YF-30 does away with the shield and knife combo.

[anime52k8]

No knife, but it kind of has arm shields in the same way the YF-21 did.

[Seto Kaiba]

Here's a burning question. Is the shield now characteristic of advanced variable fighter designs? I have to admit I'm torn on the shield, I want to hate it, because of my background, but at the same time it's well integrated into the designs. Also, the addition of the Knife, seems a bit too much like FMP! to me, but then I kinda like it at the same time for that very reason...

Anyone else with me?

Well, the physical shield is not necessarily a stipulation of the advanced variable fighter generations... but almost all of them have it, and the few that don't have a dedicated armor shield (YF-30, VF-171) tend to use their stabilizer as a shield. The pinpoint barrier IS, on the other hand, a distinguishing feature of the advanced variable fighter generations (so much so it's specifically called out on the VF family tree in Chronicle).

The combat knife is only present on a few AVF designs... pretty much exclusively the ones intended to fight the Vajra. Most lack it, and don't seem to actually need it when they can just resort to pinpoint barrier-supported fisticuffs if things get up close and personal.

I always thought the knife was kind of silly, since VFs are generally involved in high speed aerial combat, which is not at all conducive to stabbing or slashing with a knife. Giant robots with KaBARs worked much better in Full Metal Panic!, where everyone was confined to footslogging (except that <CENSORED> Leonard Testarossa, the godmodding <CENSORED>) and many fights ended up at arm's length or closer. Of course, the AS's in that series had only the one close combat blade, and the others they threw were actually shaped charges.

[GuardianGrey]

I do recall that of the F-5E & F-20, Valkyrie Driver.

Though my father (Rest his soul & he was US Army Air Corp in the 1960's), was insistent that Northrop's data from those planes were used by McD-D for the YF-17/F-18.
Personally, I seen it like the similarities of the F-15 & the Mig-25/31.

On the shield, since Bandai was taking over more of the toy/model line for Macross, I thought they were trying to influence it along GUNDAM inspirations (and chalked it up as such, with the feet redesign).

The VF scaled survival knife seems like FMP!, though I also see it as a reference to an EVA unit (01 to be precise) as well.

I do know (due to the glow in the blade in several scenes) that the PPB can reinforce the Blade (by extension of the VF), which makes it more like the blades of Neo Genesis Evangelion.

On the extension of power made me now think of the heavy quantum beam gun/cannon that the VF-27/YF-27/YF-30 are given.

I am assuming that it has its own power-source, though can it link to the unit's reactor to fire a larger burst as well? (comparing the Beam gun to the Macross Gunships that are used by the capital-ship/mecha)

On the idea that the PPB was being used to reinforce the blade, I had an idea for a Macross RPG session (that never happened) and would use tech already available.

I was thinking how easy would it be to do so with an extending baton/rod for a VF (like some police/security use) and make a Macross version of a beam/light saber, then have some VF-19 units try it out in the field.

Only downsides were that the VF-19 would have only one (not two) clips of spare ammo behind the shield, other problem was were does one stow the Gunpod if it is not being used.

Edited March 12, 2015 by GuardianGrey

[Andras]

other problem was were does one stow the Gunpod if it is not being used.

When the -19 in fighter mode, it's attached to one or both arms. Presumably there's an attachment point that can be used in B mode too to store the gunpod on the outside of the arm(s). My headcanon says this point was used to attach and control the YF-19s arm mounted heavy gun/missile combo-pod also.

Speaking of which, that combination pod would prevent transformation into F mode right? It looks too bulky to fit with the arms tucked away under the fighter.

[Seto Kaiba]

I do know (due to the glow in the blade in several scenes) that the PPB can reinforce the Blade (by extension of the VF), which makes it more like the blades of Neo Genesis Evangelion.

Not really, no... the progressive knives in Neon Genesis Evangelion weren't energy-shielded, they were just high-frequency blades. If you wanted to draw a parallel (and I don't advise it) it'd probably be to Full Metal Panic!'s monomolecular cutters, which Sousuke and others enhance with the lambda driver, which (in most ways) is kind of a force-field system.

On the extension of power made me now think of the heavy quantum beam gun/cannon that the VF-27/YF-27/YF-30 are given.

I am assuming that it has its own power-source, though can it link to the unit's reactor to fire a larger burst as well? (comparing the Beam gun to the Macross Gunships that are used by the capital-ship/mecha)

There's no official word on it directly associated with the VF-27 or YF-30, AFAIK... though in light of the twin-engine YF-27-5 having an external dedicated energy module with its own reaction power system to power and counterbalance the gun pod*, and knowing that a dimension weapon is a fairly energy-intensive thing, the logical conclusion would be that the heavy quantum beam gun pods on the YF/VF-27, YF-29, and YF-30 (and probably the MDE beam gun on the VF-171EX) are powered externally by the fighter's engines. It would explain why the YF/VF-27 needed four engines.

* See Macross the Ride Part 6, YF-27-5 Shaher Femail

[Mr March]

I kinda wish all the Variable Fighters with blades used either VF-11 Thunderbolt-style gun pod bayonets or VF-27 Lucifer-style shield blades. I realize the technology in Macross is far different than Neon Genesis Evangelion or Full metal Panic, but sadly there is very little visual/stylistic difference for the audience. The Frontier weapons just look like more-of-the-same

Andras

The FAST Pack Arm Armament Unit (WORST Macross equipment designation EVAR) should not allow transformation, but I don't believe there is any official trivia stating as such.

[Seto Kaiba]

I kinda wish all the Variable Fighters with blades used either VF-11 Thunderbolt-style gun pod bayonets or VF-27 Lucifer-style shield blades. I realize the technology in Macross is far different than Neon Genesis Evangelion or Full metal Panic, but sadly there is very little visual/stylistic difference for the audience. The Frontier weapons just look like more-of-the-same

Would it cheer you any if I told you the limited/trial production New UN Forces version of the YF-29 slapped a bayonet on the quantum beam gun pod?

[Mr March]

Yeah, for sure. Must see!

I think I liked the bayonet so much because it allowed Macross to dip it's toes into the world of mecha martial arts without betraying the basic design of what a variable fighter is built to do. Many of us have noted that Macross depicts combat as more high-speed and long-range than almost any other mecha anime. So if the franchise is to feature some kind of close-quarters weaponry, I'd prefer a conservative type of hand-to-hand weapon that easily flows and integrates into the style of a variable fighter. Of course, the VF-25 Messiah's Assault Knife is NOT an over-the-top weapon, but it does feel a little too "humanoid" and counter-intuitive for a Valkyrie. A retractable blade in the forearm/shield is much more seemlessly integrated and has the virtue of melding well with a "transforming fighter" and being more distinct than the over-exposed "mecha knife".

Edited March 12, 2015 by Mr March

[anime52k8]

I kinda wish all the Variable Fighters with blades used either VF-11 Thunderbolt-style gun pod bayonets or VF-27 Lucifer-style shield blades. I realize the technology in Macross is far different than Neon Genesis Evangelion or Full metal Panic, but sadly there is very little visual/stylistic difference for the audience. The Frontier weapons just look like more-of-the-same

I wish that on the YF-19 and it's derivatives, instead of the wings just looking like sword sheaths hanging off it's hips, they actually were sword sheaths. So instead of having guns in the wing roots, it had a pair of longswords. It would give a whole new meaning to the name Excalibur.

[Valkyrie Driver]

You know, I really like tomahawks and combat knives, and bayonets. Having them on a Mech is just cool. Still though, I have a hard time imagining VF's using them.

[Mr March]

I've often felt that if Macross ever did have to go over-the-top to depict the mecha with more stereotypical anime melee weapons, a spear/polearm/lance would fit the Macross universe better than almost any other weapon. There are already so many phallic shapes and weapons throughout the Macross franchise, mecha-sized spears would be a much more natural fit with that established male sexual aesthetic. But really, I'd prefer Macross stay away from more elaborate melee weapons completely. A destroid baton, gun pod bayonet or mecha-sized knife here and there is enough close combat weaponry for Macross. Personally, I never want to see two valkyries fighting with swords. That sort of thing is best left to anime like Five Star Stories, Escaflowne, Gundam or Neon Genesis Evangelion. There's no shortage of knight/samurai style mecha fighting in anime. Macross is at it's best shooting, launching missiles and at the last, punching/kicking once all the ammo is gone

I wish that on the YF-19 and it's derivatives, instead of the wings just looking like sword sheaths hanging off it's hips, they actually were sword sheaths. So instead of having guns in the wing roots, it had a pair of longswords. It would give a whole new meaning to the name Excalibur.

I think many of us had similar thoughts when first looking at the YF-19 and YF-21. I think it's a natural tendency when looking at something that is humanoid in shape, we interpret details of that humanoid form within the context of our own bodies. A thin, blade-like object hanging from the hip/leg of a human-shaped robot would invariably conjure up an image of a sword/sheath to our humanoid mind

[Valkyrie Driver]

Yeah, no swords in my macross please. Knives, bayonets and batons fine, but no swords. Though looking at my VF-171 toy, I had the though of using the PPBS to reinforce the fin on the arm, and use it like an axe...

[Andras]

Given you can use the PPB to reinforce a punch by the hand, you could just energize the whole gunpod and whack a dude with it.

If the gunpod is strong enough to hold up to sticking a bayonet in an enemy mecha, it should be strong enough to deliver a blow while protected by the PPB.

[Mr March]

I think the pin-point barrier systems might also serve to discourage melee combat in Macross. The PPB doesn't make mecha invulnerable, but it does make mecha more difficult to damage and significantly increase time to kill. It's much easier and more efficient to defeat a PPB with more destructive attacks like bullets, beams/lasers or missiles than it would be to punch or kick through it (excluding PPB enhanced knives or bayonets).

One other aspect that impacts melee mecha weapons that we haven't considered is weight. Mounting something like a mecha-sized sword, spear or axe is going to add a lot of weight to any valkyrie. It's make more sense to simply lose the added weight of a mecha-sized melee weapon altogether to ensure optimal performance. Or if one has to keep the weight, it would be better spent on more munitions for the exisitng weapons (more bullets, more missiles or extra energy capacitors for beam guns or pin-point barrier power).

Edited March 14, 2015 by Mr March