VF-15 Banshee Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Throwing the word "magic" in doesn't help your argument at all, nor does comparing 7 with Ultraman, at least one of the two you've obviously never seen. Bottom line, you either do not, or refuse to accept the concept that later Protoculture technology was based in biologicaly recreated what they already did mechanically, which in turn (as of Frontier) we know was originally done biologically by the Vajra. This isn't a concept exclusive to anime, or eastern sci-fi. It pops up fairly often in western sci-fi too. Computer A.i./Brain, beam weapon/organ that can create beams too, etc. Hell, if you really want to get down on this issue, how did Sharon's A.I. really work? A freakin' "BIO-NEURAL CHIP." If you're going to call hte Protodevelin magical for their bio-science, then you'll have to call Sharon magical too since she incorportated a bio-aspect to the very core of how she worked. I also don't see you complaining about DYRL mobile fortress Bodolza. One giant living ship that also had a bio-based super cannon. With you having said that, I feel the need to voice my opinion on this particular point. This concept in sci-fi that some weird bio-technology is somehow superior is kinda ridiculous when you think about it. If you go to this page here and scroll down to the section titled 'Organic Technology,' you'll see what i mean. The guy makes a lot of salient points. It bothers me more in M7 mainly because M7 is more super robot-y or Star Trek-y than, say, Frontier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gubaba Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 I just think the actual Protodevlin and the threat they are supposed to represent were quite hokey in the anime and their designs were tired old derivation-ripoffs of characters from various asian religions and superstitions. Those alien monster designs and concepts are just not regularly seen in western sci-fi since after the 1950's b-movie era or something, afaik. The thing is...my impression is that the Protodeviln are based on western ideas of demons and such. So maybe you should reread Childhood's End. That said...the Protodeviln are not as terrifying as they should be. Maybe western audiences are TOO used to devils and demons in their fiction...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VF5SS Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Sharon is hokey because she is this http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51GFNSM71RL.jpg this http://www.blogcdn.com/www.switched.com/media/2010/10/lawnmowerman2.jpg and like half the plot to Die Hard 4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treatment Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 (edited) Sharon is hokey because she is this http://ecx.images-am...51GFNSM71RL.jpg this http://www.blogcdn.c...wnmowerman2.jpg and like half the plot to Die Hard 4. Really not sure about your fascination on those movies other than you actually went to the theaters to see 'em, but hey! Here's a better Sharon-concept that is both hokey and absolutely funny: http://www.comedycen...merger-proposal just gotta try harder, veef. The thing is...my impression is that the Protodeviln are based on western ideas of demons and such. So maybe you should reread Childhood's End. That said...the Protodeviln are not as terrifying as they should be. Maybe western audiences are TOO used to devils and demons in their fiction...? Who knows? I tell you what, tho. Here is really something that is a lot lot lot better representation of a Protodevlin-concept that was way way before M7 anime: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0089489/ Great movie, too. Would be surprised if Sivil was actually based on that. But the other Protodevlins are just not quite easy on the eyes and mindshare as Sivil and Sivil herself was just simply a wallflower in the anime to satisfy some japanese elfin fetish. Edited January 30, 2012 by treatment Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gubaba Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Who knows? I tell you what, tho. Here is really something that is a lot lot lot better representation of a Protodevlin-concept that was way way before M7 anime: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0089489/ Great movie, too. Would be surprised if Sivil was actually based on that. But the other Protodevlins are just not quite easy on the eyes and mindshare as Sivil and Sivil herself was just simply a wallflower in the anime to satisfy some japanese elfin fetish. Well, DUH. The Lifeforce chick was nude. That gives her the edge on Sivil, no doubt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VF5SS Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Basara said try again but I can't stop density exceeding time and space. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 We aren't even remotely close to an A.I. like Sharon Apple, and no amount of discovery channel clips will change that fact. A.I. mimicry is still rudimentary, though Watson's ability to pull up facts and deciver speech is no doubt impressive. Doesn't mean it can hold a conversation. You still ignore the fact that Sharon's A.I. is based on a bridge between bio & mechanical, Marj basically "cheating" his original intention of an all silicon based system with illegal hardware. But regardless, the problem now with the Protodevelin seems to be aesthetic design. That's an extremely nitpicky issue, and an arbitrary one to condemn a whole show on. Fact is, the Protodevelin weren't represented as "monsters of the week," there were only 7 (and a half) of them for 49 episodes. All of their technology was based on things we'd already seen from the Protoculture, and their design aesthetic isn't drastically different from the later seen AFOS. Everything we've seen of the Protoculture's artisitc aesthetic is congruent with what we seen in the "EVIL" designs, including the mobile fortresses. So I say again, "get over it." As for the Isamu issue, you do realize that claiming the fact that he kills somehow makes his embodiment of the same traits that Basara posseses is nonsnesicle. "I don't like Basara because he does this" is trumped now by "I don't like Basara because he doesn't killl." Ok...whatever dude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VF-15 Banshee Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 I suppose if we're going to debate the Protodeviln we might as well hive it off to another thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isamu Dyson Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 As for the Isamu issue, you do realize that claiming the fact that he kills somehow makes his embodiment of the same traits that Basara posseses is nonsnesicle. "I don't like Basara because he does this" is trumped now by "I don't like Basara because he doesn't killl." Ok...whatever dude. Hey dude, all I stated was the difference of their actions in their own respective planes. I never stated nor mean to imply if one character who kills makes him better than one that does not. Hell I prefer playing Metal Gear than COD. I agree both characters like to do things in their own way because of their personality but what they do defines who they are. Basara is against violence and spreads love through music - Hey that's cool. Isamu shoots down planes so that he can continue making a living through flying - not as noble but it's a job. I'm not posting here to attack Basara. I'm posting to defend that Isamu isn't like Basara. Just because they like to do it their own way doesn't make them the same kind of guys who would hang out at the same kind of pub. Of all the people here Keith - I thought you would understand my intent. Heck you've been doing it for weeks. I don't hate Basara but he's just not my cup of tea kind of guy no matter how logical explanations are thrown out there. The main issue isn't about magic or who saves the universe. In simple terms does Basara jive with you yes or no? For you - A most definite Yes. For others or haters it's a definite No. For me - he has his moments but ultimately no feelings for the man kind of No, My own personal preference in a character Is that okay for you...dude? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lobizon Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) seems that word "dude" is quite a trend these days at the forum. Edited January 31, 2012 by Lobizon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 That's just it, Basara & Isamu do have the same personality, the difference is Basara's passion lies in singing, while Isamu's lies in chasing clouds. Isamu is guilty of all of the same self indulgent behavior that Basara is, disobaying orders, showboating on the battlefield, etc. Though arguably, Isamu actually "did" put friendlies at risk, while Basara did not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isamu Dyson Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Well said~~~ I can accept that answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pterobat Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 The thing is...my impression is that the Protodeviln are based on western ideas of demons and such. So maybe you should reread Childhood's End. That said...the Protodeviln are not as terrifying as they should be. Maybe western audiences are TOO used to devils and demons in their fiction...? The problem with the Protodevlin certainly is that they aren't terrifying enough...the EVIL designs are pretty damn silly, and a lot of the actual Protodevlin characters are pretty goofy as personalities, too. But furthermore, the Protodevlin as a concept are just too...*large* to fit into the story of Macross 7. It's too hard to suspend disbelief that these ridiculous creatures were a major factor in the destruction of the Protoculture, and that on top of that, they can still be reconciled with due only to the actions of a single rock band. I love Macross for mixing absurdity and seriousness, but this was just way too much. Even if the Protodevlin we see in the series were just a fraction of the earlier groups, I still can't wrap my head around the notion that we're supposed to accept them as terrifying space monsters that could bring the universe to their knees. As for Basara, Basara...I dislike Basara. I understand what he's *supposed* to represent, namely that a burning passion for his Art can overcome all obstacles, that he is a force of nature, one of Macross' central themes arguably distilled into its purest form. But while I like the theme of art/culture overcoming, I find Basara insufferable precisely *because* he's too uniform, too grand a character. I like characters with flaws, characters who have to change, etc. Basara doesn't have to change...everyone else has to change for him, everyone else has to understand that he was right all along about the right way to "defeat" the Protodevlin. Basara never alters, never wavers, and while I can see the appeal in a character like that, I don't share it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leading edge Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 The Isamu/ Basara yes they are similar except the only problem is Isamu's comment "If you don't try you don't know" that is it discovery the need to chase a frontier even if it means death he does it anyway. Basara does this similarly but we need to identify or at least be included in his dream and experience it. Isamu we see at the controls and we see valkyries as cool dangerous and just plain an adrenalin rush. The same is for Basara except he is forcing people to listen he is the guy who comes up to you takes out his music and pushes it at you and doesn't give you a choice. I would be different if he was playing like at a concert then yeah people volunteer to show. But life and death in space followed by a song of peace while magical is too dangerous. Confusion may get someone killed, collision might occur some of the reasons we restrict technology in the car is to avoid a distraction. I get his intentions being good but the way he does it is by interrupting people. I agree with a no arms type situation but the road to peace is not paved by people that shove a thought in your head and expect you to follow through. All in all I applaud studio Nu for taing a different road to making a character but maybe a less austentatious method would be preferred. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadTroll Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Clearly the greatest thing to happen to Macross was Nekki Basara. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 So wait a minute, Basara singing is dangerous, but Isamu shooting isn't? BULLSH!T!!! Also, the EVIL are only terrying to "Zentradi." They were designed by one side of the Protoculture as Zentradi killers, and a safety against the impending threat of their potential to rebel against the PC, which as we know they eventualy did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VF5SS Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 It's a good thing Isamu and Guld found an abandoned city when they both arrived on Earth. Somebody might have gotten hurt when they destroyed a few buildings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old_Nash Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) So wait a minute, Basara singing is dangerous, but Isamu shooting isn't? BULLSH!T!!! Keith you have to see the Isamu has the ability to fight and is a soldier, and Nekki Basara? Just a guy who sings bad as hell. So the people fled.To avoid having your eardrums blown out^^ But seriously. It is normal for comparison, since both use a* F-19. Despite what the Isamu fly in a prototype. The ability to combat it's high. Unlike the other sfollow. Far from the Fire or Blazer. I'd like to have seen him in action on the Sayonara noTsubasa. I put a * to not confuse the model the YF of VF. And best are the YF-21 Edited January 31, 2012 by Old_Nash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Keith you have to see the Isamu has the ability to fight and is a soldier, and Nekki Basara? Just a guy who sings bad as hell. So the people fled.To avoid having your eardrums blown out^^ But seriously. It is normal for comparison, since both use a* F-19. Despite what the Isamu fly in a prototype. The ability to combat it's high. Unlike the other sfollow. Far from the Fire or Blazer. I'd like to have seen him in action on the Sayonara noTsubasa. I put a * to not confuse the model the YF of VF. And best are the YF-21 And you have to see that Basara was never intended to be a soldier, which is a "good thing." The level of technology possesed by the Protodevelin was far more than the 7 fleet could handle, once Gepelnitch was at full strength, more than any approaching fleet could handle. Bottom line, if not for Basara, the U.N. Spacy would have had to surrender and become enslaved. When faced with that reality, would you prefer to surrender or to convince your enemy to co-exist? Somehow infering that Basara was an inferior pilot because he didn't shoot is just inane. Despite the popularity of it, kill count and flying ability aren't the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VF-15 Banshee Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 In regards to the Basara/Isamu thing, I really don't think they're all that similar. Basara seems to be way more laid-back than Isamu, at least when he's not flying or singing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VF5SS Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Basara's a better motorcycle rider that's for sure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old_Nash Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) And you have to see that Basara was never intended to be a soldier, which is a "good thing." The level of technology possesed by the Protodevelin was far more than the 7 fleet could handle, once Gepelnitch was at full strength, more than any approaching fleet could handle. Bottom line, if not for Basara, the U.N. Spacy would have had to surrender and become enslaved. When faced with that reality, would you prefer to surrender or to convince your enemy to co-exist? Somehow infering that Basara was an inferior pilot because he didn't shoot is just inane. Despite the popularity of it, kill count and flying ability aren't the same thing. Keith would not say who kills,I referred to as who is the best driver.As far Isamu and Basara has its pros and cons. But the advantage is the Isamu because it is very hot-shot. Already Basara, prefers to be singing and acting as a decoy. Edited February 1, 2012 by Old_Nash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leading edge Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 First off Isamu is dangerous but what we see is more an outlaw style he flys as he pleases ala Maverick from top gun or better yet Roy Foker. Basara doesn't have a lot of defense options he needs Gamlin to defend him and his team. let's face it flying style is moot Basara is evasion Isamu is get an opening and kill them two different styles of flying all together. it is almost a moot point of comparison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeyondTheGrave Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) It's kind of funny nowadays since it's like ok, Sharon can infiltrate anything from the fire suppression system (why is this hooked up to a computer?) in the concert hall (and cause electrical equipment to fry itself lol fuses suck in the future) and take over military computers and whatever systems were controlling the vast broadcasting network of Macross city. Why can she does this? Because AI. She's basically an autonomous Vocaloid but hey she can do these things because that's how they wanted the plot to unfold. Which I find funny because she already has mind-control powers so why do they need to show her taking over things through technological means? Sharon can make soldiers open fire on a civilian and she made Most fire alarm systems are linked to an alarm company who calls fire/police/ems for response. Yang shoot at Isamu's head by merely making him listen to her song. You know that one stupid thing all guys do for a girl? I'm pretty sure that qualifies. Again even though the whole setup is presented just like the Sound Boosters and the Varuta Spiritia harvesting, there's a lot of unspoken [TECH] that somehow links Myung to Sharon (SHINE A LASER ON HER FOREHEAD!) which somehow imbues Sharon's songs with a piece of Myung's "soul" to give them a tangible effect over the audience. Reminded me of an MRI machine. edit: thinking of post comparing basara to Vash the Stampede. Edited February 1, 2012 by BeyondTheGrave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 First off Isamu is dangerous but what we see is more an outlaw style he flys as he pleases ala Maverick from top gun or better yet Roy Foker. Basara doesn't have a lot of defense options he needs Gamlin to defend him and his team. let's face it flying style is moot Basara is evasion Isamu is get an opening and kill them two different styles of flying all together. it is almost a moot point of comparison. Do you even know what you're saying? First off, Roy wasn't a showboating pilot, if anything he discouraged it. You'll recall his chewing out Hikaru for crashing the launch ceremony. Isamu did some pretty stupidly dangerous sh!t. Dashing in front of Guld & dropping his booster right in front of him to take otu the HMM's? Dangerous. Letting his squad take extra flack so he could get a flashier kill at the beginning of the OVA? Also stupidly dangerous. No doubt he's skilled, by Sharon was pretty straight on with calling out his deathwish. Basara on the other hand didn't need Gamlin or anyone else to cover his ass, more often than not he wound up saving other pilots. No doubt the PPB allowed him to hang out a bit more than a lower end fighter would, but he more than hsowed his piloting skills. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VF5SS Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Most fire alarm systems are linked to an alarm company who calls fire/police/ems for response. Yes but the sprinkler part is generally activated by some kind of fusible element. You can't hack mercury thermometers (yet) You know that one stupid thing all guys do for a girl? I'm pretty sure that qualifies. Yeah it's not like he was visually struggling not to shoot Isamu but still did because of Sharon's mind control. Oh wait he was. Reminded me of an MRI machine. what about a Spiritia absorption beam that shoots a laser at your forehead :v Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leading edge Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 First Roy was like Isamu when he was a regular pilot when he gets responsibilities he becomes more adjusted. Basara flys into danger very skill but you have to push your way through to get there you fly around in space without looking everywhere you collide. Isamu is a maniac but he is a flying genius from what I can tell he seems to predict movement by previsualizing patterns of movement via tactile movement his hands. If we're talking dangerous they both are no way they are regular military fighter pilots they don't cover each other of fly in formation. They are both mavericks they move on their own without help. As for helping or saving that is because of spiritia enemies. even so you can't just enter a battle doing what Basara did it is like singing to a crowd with automatic rifles no matter how you slice things going into a situation without the means to properly incapacitate an opponent can be deadly for both you and the people you save. You at the very least need to stop the enemy if not kill them. And realisticly without the spiritia plot Basara couldn't hold up against Gavil without back up. Dangerous enemies require help and different types of help in the end even Basara acknowledge the need to have Gamlin at least cover him while he did his thing. i don't even know how we got on this subject anyway wasn't this about whether people liked Basara or not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gubaba Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 First Roy was like Isamu when he was a regular pilot when he gets responsibilities he becomes more adjusted. Basara flys into danger very skill but you have to push your way through to get there you fly around in space without looking everywhere you collide. Isamu is a maniac but he is a flying genius from what I can tell he seems to predict movement by previsualizing patterns of movement via tactile movement his hands. If we're talking dangerous they both are no way they are regular military fighter pilots they don't cover each other of fly in formation. They are both mavericks they move on their own without help. As for helping or saving that is because of spiritia enemies. even so you can't just enter a battle doing what Basara did it is like singing to a crowd with automatic rifles no matter how you slice things going into a situation without the means to properly incapacitate an opponent can be deadly for both you and the people you save. You at the very least need to stop the enemy if not kill them. And realisticly without the spiritia plot Basara couldn't hold up against Gavil without back up. Dangerous enemies require help and different types of help in the end even Basara acknowledge the need to have Gamlin at least cover him while he did his thing. i don't even know how we got on this subject anyway wasn't this about whether people liked Basara or not? I know you expect us to understand everything you say I don't want to sound like a broken record punctuation would really help us comprehend you you think that its not necessary but it kinda is its like if you don't punctuate your sentences its all all just one big wall of text no one ants to try to go through and decipher that or do they I don't think they do it takes me at least quite a few attempts before I can figure out what your trying to say I don't want to spend that time if what your saying isn't worth it why don't you try to punctuate your posts more carefully instead of expecting all of us to break down and interpret what your saying I mean its just good manners now isn't it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leading edge Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 First Roy was like Isamu when he was a regular pilot when he gets responsibilities he becomes more adjusted. Basara flys into danger very skill but, you have to push your way through to get there. You fly around in space without looking everywhere you collide. Isamu is a maniac but he is a flying genius. From what I can tell he seems to predict movement by previsualizing patterns of movement via tactile movement his hands. If we're talking dangerous they both are no way they are regular military fighter pilots they don't cover each other of fly in formation. They are both mavericks they move on their own without help. As for helping or saving that is because of spiritia enemies. Even so you can't just enter a battle doing what Basara did it is like singing to a crowd with automatic rifles. No matter how you slice things going into a situation without the means to properly incapacitate an opponent can be deadly for both you and the people you save. You at the very least need to stop the enemy if not kill them. And realisticly without the spiritia plot Basara couldn't hold up against Gavil without back up. Dangerous enemies require help and different types of help in the end even Basara acknowledge the need to have Gamlin at least cover him while he did his thing. I don't even know how we got on this subject anyway wasn't this about whether people liked Basara or not? Better Gubaba? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gubaba Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Okay, if English is your second language, please say so now. I'll stop making fun of you then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leading edge Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 English isn't my second language. And please refrain from making fun of me at all. Besides this is suppose to be a conversation about Basara. Please tell me what you think of what I just posted pertaining to the subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VF5SS Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I dunno. Isamu put way more people, both military and civilian, in danger than Basara ever did. Early on it was more Gamlin getting mad at Basara than anything else. Later in the series he becomes a great asset to Milia and Max. He saved all those kids from the Varuta forces and later got berated by Milia for sucking at Gerwalk mode :3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gubaba Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 English isn't my second language. And please refrain from making fun of me at all. Besides this is suppose to be a conversation about Basara. Please tell me what you think of what I just posted pertaining to the subject. Not to derail the thread, but the way you post, it's difficult enough to figure out WHAT you're saying, let alone how to respond to it. Again, if you use standard English punctuation, you won't be demanding other members to go out of their way to try to decipher your messages, and you'll likely get a better response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VF5SS Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 You can just put line breaks between your sentences. Like this. Helps idiots like me organize my thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sketchley Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Not to derail the thread, but the way you post, it's difficult enough to figure out WHAT you're saying, let alone how to respond to it. Again, if you use standard English punctuation, you won't be demanding other members to go out of their way to try to decipher your messages, and you'll likely get a better response. ... and maybe, just maybe people will read his posts once more...? Kudos to you for trying that edjamukation thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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