Validity of the Super Long Range Emigration Strategy

[Radd]

yeah but before that he had to take out two satellites to screw the targeting of the defense cannons and to use the debris,i cant remember, but i think they said the satellites where used for something to do with the actual defence. If im mistaken,disregard my comment.

I think you're misremembering. Isamu took out a couple satellites, yes, but not because of an strategic importance. He used them to create debris he could fall into the gravity well alongside. The net could target a single falling piece of debris, but with hundreds of such pieces, it inceased the chance that the 19 would not get taken out.

[Gubaba]

I think you're misremembering. Isamu took out a couple satellites, yes, but not because of an strategic importance. He used them to create debris he could fall into the gravity well alongside. The net could target a single falling piece of debris, but with hundreds of such pieces, it inceased the chance that the 19 would not get taken out.

But...but...that wouldn't depend on his skill, that would make it only a question of luck!

[dreamweaver13]

But...but...that wouldn't depend on his skill, that would make it only a question of luck!

But luck is a skill!

[RedWolf]

It seems that the Frontier government felt that the YF-24 didn't suit their purposes and chose to customize the design. So all NUNS forces under the Fontier government may ultimately switch over to the Messiahs. It is an assumption to believe all fleets and colonies will adopt the VF-25 into their fleets.

There is evidence prior to Macross Frontier VF designs were customised by planetary governments and emmigration fleets.

For example the Varauta VF-14 is bulkier while keeping the same profile as the VF-14 Max and Millia flew.

Then there is Macross 7 with the VF-19S and VF-19F Excaliburs and the customised Sound Force and Jamming Birds VFs.

Also note Zola has its own variants of the VF-5000 and the its own Excalibur variant the VF-19P.

But in the first episode Alto was expecting the VF-25 to be deployed by NUNS later on. Instead he got with SMS combat testing them. Note the prototype took flight aboard a NUNS carrier during a resouce gathering in 2057 at a planet designated Messiah025.

Since the design was approved by NUNS the design would be desemminated to colonies and fleets wanting to buy it once all the kinks are worked out.

Also note that both LAI and Macross Galaxy's Guld Works are both corporations that specializes on cutting edge technology. I doubt Shinsei and GG are giving the designs for free the YF-24 design is licensed to both corporations. In a way both Shinsei and GG are hedging their bets on these two. Just that LAI isn't as shady as Macross Galaxy and more transparent.

[Seto Kaiba]

There is evidence prior to Macross Frontier VF designs were customised by planetary governments and emmigration fleets.

Eh... you might be reading a bit too much into this...

For example the Varauta VF-14 is bulkier while keeping the same profile as the VF-14 Max and Millia flew.

And we have absolutely no idea if they were originally like that, if they were modified to be like that after the fleet had accidentally released the Protodeviln, or if they were built from scratch based on the existing design. What evidence we have suggests that latter... so unless we're counting the Protodeviln's legions as a planetary government I don't think that holds for the VF-14.

Then there is Macross 7 with the VF-19S and VF-19F Excaliburs and the customised Sound Force and Jamming Birds VFs.

Well, there's no doubt that the Zola Patrol's VF-19P was a custom VF-19 intended to meet their specific needs, even prior to it being outfitted with sound booster technology, but there's no indication that the VF-19F and VF-19S were exclusive to the 37th Colony Fleet. Additionally, we shouldn't count the Sound Force birds in this, since all but the VF-11D were unique one-off machines, and all were designed to fill a specific and extremely limited combat niche.

Also note Zola has its own variants of the VF-5000 and the its own Excalibur variant the VF-19P.

We've covered the VF-19P already... repeating one instance will not make it count for two. Also, do you have some kind of proof that the VF-5000G and VF-5000T-G weren't produced by the U.N. Spacy for the aggressor and training purposes mentioned in its Compendium article? We cannot assume that these VF-5000 variants were locally-produced customized units.

But in the first episode Alto was expecting the VF-25 to be deployed by NUNS later on. Instead he got with SMS combat testing them. Note the prototype took flight aboard a NUNS carrier during a resouce gathering in 2057 at a planet designated Messiah025.

Yes, but remember that it was exclusive to the NUNS forces attached to the Macross Frontier colony fleet, and was the product of development carried out aboard the Frontier fleet.

You're making an awful lot of assumptions here, many of which are unsound.

[Freiflug88]

Ah, Zomeo and Zoliet.

"We can't be together because...you are not a marsupial".

Can't imagine Liza had some sort of kangaroo-pocket; she's hot btw

Anyway, what's the policy regarding colonization if there's no civilized alien race inside? I mean, built a city outside and move the colonists right away or being cautious by keep the colonists inside the dome/ship and spend some time (months or years) to study the planet and declared it safe before actual colonization start?

I just watched M7 Dyantimite not too long ago and in my subs she said: "Even if you stay on Zola and marry me we can't have a child. "Because... Your not a marsupial." Which makes much more sense. The OVA clearly shows us that the Zola are culturally the same, but they don't dive into how marsupials biology things is quite different... I will just say that: due to the extra pouch in the females marsupial males need a double barreled wave gun... So there is just no way Zomeo and Zuilet could conceive a child without resorting to artificial insemination. If things were reversed though and the couple was a male Zola and a Female human/Zentradi couple then they might be able to possibly conceive a child though.

She doesn't if we go by her full frontal nudity little sister while Basara was in a catatonic state.

Which we can't really go on as not only has Elma not even reached puberty yet, but most marsupials only have pouches that only open up for breeding season. Marsupials with "true" pouches that are always open and exposed like the Kangaroos everyone things of are the exception not the rule for marsupials.

Also the mere existence of Michael proves all Children of the Protoculture are genetically compatible.

I thought Michael Blanc was just half Zentradi no different then any of Max and Milia's seven daughters and the Michael in M7 who was Milia's bodyguard was a just a huge guy, but I definitely see the possibility of Zentradi heritage there. Which Michael are you talking about though and where is he described as being unique.

[Gubaba]

I thought Michael Blanc was just half Zentradi no different then any of Max and Milia's seven daughters...

Weirdly, Michael Blanc is described as being part-human, part-Zentradi but "with some Zolan blood." How this is even possible is rather unclear.

[miles316]

Is their any evidence that the Zolan were altered by the Protocilture, or just evolved that way naturally with some genetic interaction between the Space Whales?

M7 shows that the Zolan can be Macloned.

Edited March 9, 2010 by miles316

[Gubaba]

Is their any evidence that the Zolan were altered by the Protocilture, or just evolved that way naturally with some genetic interaction between the Space Whales?

RedWolf will probably say they were definitely molded by the Protoculture, but really, there's no evidence one way or another. If you've seen Macross Dynamite 7, you know as much as any of us do...until Macross Chronicle covers Zola, of course (which may be as soon as next week).

[Seto Kaiba]

Weirdly, Michael Blanc is described as being part-human, part-Zentradi but "with some Zolan blood." How this is even possible is rather unclear.

Well, since we don't know exactly when the U.N. made first contact with the indigenous people of Zola the best we can do is guess based on what we know from Macross Dynamite 7. Even the content of the "Zomeo and Zoliet" radio drama isn't necessary a good indicator of whether a non-Zolan male could successfully mate with a Zolan female. After all, it may be a play on the central conflict in Romeo and Juliet, and the families of "Zomeo" and "Zoliet" simply don't approve of their children marrying a member of a newly-discovered alien species or something along those lines. We can't judge Zolans by typical marsupial standards either, since they are an alien species that evolved into a form similar to humans either via the meddling of the Protoculture or by convergent evolution.

Is their any evidence that the Zolan were altered by the Protocilture, or just evolved that way naturally with some genetic interaction between the Space Whales?

At the present time we don't have any hard evidence... though it seems a safe bet that the Zolans were probably modified by the Protoculture at some point in their history. After all, this isn't Robotech, where every alien race in the galaxy evolved into a humanoid shape and with DNA similar enough to produce viable offspring by pure coincidence. As Gubaba said, we should wait for Chronicle... but at the risk of sounding like a Magic 8 Ball: "Signs point to yes".

[Zinjo]

But in the first episode Alto was expecting the VF-25 to be deployed by NUNS later on. Instead he got with SMS combat testing them. Note the prototype took flight aboard a NUNS carrier during a resouce gathering in 2057 at a planet designated Messiah025.

That may simply be a favor NUNS did for Briler, we really don't know the particulars of that flight.

Since the design was approved by NUNS the design would be desemminated to colonies and fleets wanting to buy it once all the kinks are worked out.

Again, we don't know if the VF-25 would have been purchased / licensed by any fleet other than Frontier. Possibly, but unknown.

As I said, Kawamori has stated that the government of 2059 is much less centralized and thus a centralized "Federal" force would probably not be as large as UNS was back in the 40's. Therefore, the idea that a general dissemination of one particular design by LAI is rather unlikely. I'd be more inclined to believe the federal forces of the UNG would use a VF-24 as a general purpose fighter, rather than Frontier's VF-25 or even Galaxy's VF-27...

We can be reasonably confident that all the Macross 13 fleets are directly under UNG control, whereas the rest of the NUNS fleets are "assigned" as escorts to various fleets and on "other" missions.

Also note that both LAI and Macross Galaxy's Guld Works are both corporations that specializes on cutting edge technology. I doubt Shinsei and GG are giving the designs for free the YF-24 design is licensed to both corporations. In a way both Shinsei and GG are hedging their bets on these two. Just that LAI isn't as shady as Macross Galaxy and more transparent.

Shinsei and GG are hedging nothing, IMO. They were paid to deliver a next gen variable fighter airframe and they did just that in the YF-24. What individual UNG colonies do with that airframe design is entirely their decision, so long as they have the licensing rights from S and GG. One could argue that the Galaxy VF-27 wasn't licensed, therefore not known to be in development.

Some may build a VF-24 others may decide to modify the design like Frontier and Galaxy's development corps did.

Edited March 10, 2010 by Zinjo

[Freiflug88]

Well, since we don't know exactly when the U.N. made first contact with the indigenous people of Zola the best we can do is guess based on what we know from Macross Dynamite 7. Even the content of the "Zomeo and Zoliet" radio drama isn't necessary a good indicator of whether a non-Zolan male could successfully mate with a Zolan female. After all, it may be a play on the central conflict in Romeo and Juliet, and the families of "Zomeo" and "Zoliet" simply don't approve of their children marrying a member of a newly-discovered alien species or something along those lines. We can't judge Zolans by typical marsupial standards either, since they are an alien species that evolved into a form similar to humans either via the meddling of the Protoculture or by convergent evolution.

Considering we have Lawrence who is applying for the same University as Dr. Chiba and a poacher continuing the family business his father started it seems that the UN Spacy as settled on Zola for quite some time. Not as long as Eden, but considering that Dynamite is 35 years after UN started their Emigration its plenty of time for Zolan to become a part of the UN. While Zolan may be on the very far edge of the Galaxy, its very likely on our corner of the Galaxy not to far past Eden.

Also speaking of the poacher I am beginning to think that he may be half human/Zolan himself. He looks completely human except for his green mohawk among his brown hair and thus far the Zolans have been the only ones depicted with two different colors for their hair.

[Seto Kaiba]

That may simply be a favor NUNS did for Briler, we really don't know the particulars of that flight.

Birla/Bilrer/etc. seems to have a great deal of pull in the New U.N. Spacy already... owed no doubt to his status as the Frontier fleet's shadow sponsor and his connections to Howard Glass's chief of staff Leon Mishima, LAI's Luca Angeloni, and Grace O'Connor, who may or may not be directly connected to General Galaxy, who sponsored the Macross Galaxy fleet. Sufficed to say, if the VF-25 was developed from the YF-24 at the behest of the Frontier government, it would make a lot of sense for the Frontier government's New U.N. Spacy garrison to conduct the initial flight testing before handing it over to SMS for field testing.

What individual UNG colonies do with that airframe design is entirely their decision, so long as they have the licensing rights from S and GG. One could argue that the Galaxy VF-27 wasn't licensed, therefore not known to be in development.

Considering the source of Macross Galaxy's funding, it seems somewhat unlikely that Macross Galaxy didn't have at least informal consent from General Galaxy to develop a new fighter based on the YF-24 Evolution.

Considering we have Lawrence who is applying for the same University as Dr. Chiba and a poacher continuing the family business his father started it seems that the UN Spacy as settled on Zola for quite some time. Not as long as Eden, but considering that Dynamite is 35 years after UN started their Emigration its plenty of time for Zolan to become a part of the UN. While Zolan may be on the very far edge of the Galaxy, its very likely on our corner of the Galaxy not to far past Eden.

Entirely plausible, yes... having been discovered early in humanity's space exploration process would account for the rather extensive cultural contamination, what with Zolan adaptations of human drama like Romeo and Juliet, their apparent love of human music, and use of human-developed overtechnology. One has to wonder exactly when those Star Mirages in the Zola Patrol's arsenal were purchased... as they were introduced in the 2020s and mass production ended in 2029. The compendium article would seem to suggest that the VF-5000T-G was either a limited production unit or a conversion done after 2029.

Also speaking of the poacher I am beginning to think that he may be half human/Zolan himself. He looks completely human except for his green mohawk among his brown hair and thus far the Zolans have been the only ones depicted with two different colors for their hair.

Doubtful, IMO... our examples of Human-Zentradi and Human-Zolan hybrids share one feature in common, that being they all have pointed ears. Michael Blanc, our sole example of a Human-Zentradi-Zolan hybrid has ears that come to a somewhat more severe point than those of a Human-Zentradi hybrid, possibly a legacy of the full-blown anime elf ears Zolans have. The poacher captain Kariba's character design has rounded ears, suggesting that he is in fact a full-blood human. Considering the way the man dresses, his two-tone mohawk is probably just an extension of his atrocious dress sense.

[Freiflug88]

Doubtful, IMO... our examples of Human-Zentradi and Human-Zolan hybrids share one feature in common, that being they all have pointed ears. Michael Blanc, our sole example of a Human-Zentradi-Zolan hybrid has ears that come to a somewhat more severe point than those of a Human-Zentradi hybrid, possibly a legacy of the full-blown anime elf ears Zolans have. The poacher captain Kariba's character design has rounded ears, suggesting that he is in fact a full-blood human. Considering the way the man dresses, his two-tone mohawk is probably just an extension of his atrocious dress sense.

Well there can always be an exception to the rule. As for Michaels ears IMO they just seem like a bigger, pointy, and more masculine version of the Meltrandi elf ears. Also just like the Zentradi elf ears the ends of his ears stay close to the side of the head as evident by his frontal shots by comparison the Zolan elf ears are spread out at an almost 90 degree angle and no where near their head in frontal shots.

If anyone in Macross Frontier has ears similar to the Zolans IMO its actually Klan Klan and her Pixie Squad with their pointy ears that really stick out from their heads and make them look like actual Pixies.

[RedWolf]

Well the Zolans totally came out of the left field. Prior to Macross Dynamite 7 ther were no indication of other miclone species like humans. I suppose the Protoculture's seeding program was successful in spite of the civil war and the Protodevlin. Comparably Zolans are sheep not as blood thirsty as humans or Zentradi, except in Graham's case he's Captain Ahab. Though if I was an anthropologist in the Macross universe I'd be intrigued that the Protoculture handed symbiotic script translators (Kyaapi) as a legacy to the Zolans while Humans got a doomsday device designed to wipe humanity off if they toe the line.

Dynamite 7 also showed all is not peachy on the frontier with the black market selling everything from whales to VFs to Reaction Bombs.

If we take into consideration Isamu's record trouble could potentially brew anywhere along Earth's immediate sphere of influence.

Super Long Range Emmigration Fleets are relatively more safer.

[Freiflug88]

2035 05.08 ASSIGNED U.N.N ENTER PRISE.

[Ghost Train]

Heck Yea, B+ blood type, we are the superior RH blood group without question.

Lol, I like how his profile reads like an RPG. Special Ability: Reckless Run ...

[Seto Kaiba]

Well there can always be an exception to the rule. As for Michaels ears IMO they just seem like a bigger, pointy, and more masculine version of the Meltrandi elf ears.

Yes, but as hybrids go, his ears are still unusually pointy. Compare his ears, which come to a sharp, distinct point, with the ears of Mylene Jenius, which are distinctly and unmistakably elongated, yet are rounded at the tip. Our pirate captain has neither trait, with normal, rounded ears like every other confirmed pure-human character in Macross 7. There can be exceptions (though we haven't SEEN any), but we shouldn't rush to assume that a character is one of those exceptions unless we have good cause to.

[RedWolf]

Yes, but as hybrids go, his ears are still unusually pointy. Compare his ears, which come to a sharp, distinct point, with the ears of Mylene Jenius, which are distinctly and unmistakably elongated, yet are rounded at the tip. Our pirate captain has neither trait, with normal, rounded ears like every other confirmed pure-human character in Macross 7. There can be exceptions (though we haven't SEEN any), but we shouldn't rush to assume that a character is one of those exceptions unless we have good cause to.

Kariba's crew are humans so it stands to reason he is human as well.

His father probably saw the Galactic Whales as a exploitable resource for fold engines. Most view Whales as plants not living creatures but somewhere down the line the Zolan government dropped the ball that these are a protected species. The Vajra did not benefit from tree huggers like the Whales did.

I see Macross Dynamite 7 as a precurssor to some themes seen in Macross Zero. The environmentalism angle and living in harmony with nature. Two sisters a legal age one and a not so legal age one. And a certain dying culture tribal aspect with a connection to the Protoculture.

In Macross Zero only the Mayan tribe knew about the the Bird Human. Macross Dynamite 7 had the Hoyleys. Now most of the world doesn't even know the Whales graveyard exists on Zola. The Hoyley clan does if we take Elma's word that her grandfather told her about it. Graham knows about it but did not seem to teach it to Liza. The writings on the bones of Whales are presumably Protoculture. The Zolan civilization appears to be as old as Humans. The Humans have what? 5000 years of recorded history. Whale according to the writing have 7000 year life span. Graham couldn't read the writing but Kyaapi can. (Which I suspect is a Protoculture legacy) Like the Vajra the Protoculture have a healthy respect for the Whales. Basically if it can fold, eat reaction bombs and mess you up real good you have to respect it or else.

Also note Zola has flying fish. Flying fish in Mayan myths are the children of Roy Waka and Roy Kanu. I have a suspicion if the Bird Human were based on the Vajra Queen then the Fish Human in the Mayan legend corresponds to White Whale. Both species despite being entirely different have natural fold capability.

Edited March 10, 2010 by RedWolf

[miles316]

So does the Space Whale allow for a fault free Space Fold?

[Freiflug88]

Yes, but as hybrids go, his ears are still unusually pointy. Compare his ears, which come to a sharp, distinct point, with the ears of Mylene Jenius, which are distinctly and unmistakably elongated, yet are rounded at the tip.

Guild had even pointier ears as well and who isn't to say that Michael isn't 3/4th Zentraedi?

[Seto Kaiba]

Kariba's crew are humans so it stands to reason he is human as well.

Under normal circumstances I'd ask what the basis for this unfounded assertion was, but since I can already prove that it's not true let's skip right ahead to the nice juicy fallacies. As shown on Macross Chronicle Macross Dynamite 7 character sheet Etc. 03A "The Galactic Whale Poaching Team/Crew", Kariba's crew includes at least one Zolan. Of course, even if he didn't have Zolans in his crew too, that would be no guarantee of his parentage without independent corroboration from dialogue or observable physical traits. In short, Kariba is most likely human not because his crew is mostly human, but rather because he lacks the distinguishing characteristics endemic to Zolans, Zentradi, and human hybrids.

His father probably saw the Galactic Whales as a exploitable resource for fold engines. Most view Whales as plants not living creatures but somewhere down the line the Zolan government dropped the ball that these are a protected species. The Vajra did not benefit from tree huggers like the Whales did.

Okay, so pure speculation based loosely on a single line of dialogue about Kariba's father, assumptions based on god alone knows what, a faulty comparison to boot... it's a fallacy hat trick!

Because Macross Dynamite 7 doesn't delve into the motivations of Kariba's father (or, in fact, depict him at all), we can't make any definitive statement about how his father viewed the space whales, so let's avoid projecting our own assumptions onto it please. The last thing we need is for someone to take those unfounded assumptions and run with them... we'd end up with a repeat of the Shaloom situation. Insofar as how most people view them, that seems to be rather a projection of your own views onto it again, as Kariba seems to be a pretty transparent Captain Ahab... right down to his white whale fixation.

As for the Vajra, have you already forgotten that the U.N. Spacy kept the existence of the Vajra a secret ever since their first encounter with them in 2040? They wouldn't enjoy the support of the tree-hugging environmentalists because their very existence was kept secret, and let's face it... they're not above shooting back when someone starts giving them crap.

The writings on the bones of Whales are presumably Protoculture. The Zolan civilization appears to be as old as Humans. The Humans have what? 5000 years of recorded history. Whale according to the writing have 7000 year life span. Graham couldn't read the writing but Kyaapi can. (Which I suspect is a Protoculture legacy)

A series of interdependent, unfounded assumptions.

Like the Vajra the Protoculture have a healthy respect for the Whales. Basically if it can fold, eat reaction bombs and mess you up real good you have to respect it or else.

Another unfounded assumption. We have no way of knowing how the Protoculture regarded the space whales, if they even encountered them at all.

Also note Zola has flying fish. Flying fish in Mayan myths are the children of Roy Waka and Roy Kanu. I have a suspicion if the Bird Human were based on the Vajra Queen then the Fish Human in the Mayan legend corresponds to White Whale. Both species despite being entirely different have natural fold capability.

Not necessarily an indication of common genetic tampering. It could be a simple case of convergent evolution. Note that the existing accounts don't mention the Protoculture dicking around with any of the local wildlife except those they were angling to make into sub-Protoculture species. So, of course, this asserted connection may very well be nothing of the sort.

So does the Space Whale allow for a fault free Space Fold?

Considering that fold quartz was considered revolutionary in its ability to allow folding through fold faults, I don't think so. If the U.N. had such a valuable resource sitting right under their noses, they would've exploited it by now.

Guild had even pointier ears as well and who isn't to say that Michael isn't 3/4th Zentraedi?

It's certainly possible, though it seems somehow unlikely, since that would have to entail a full-blood Zentradi mating with a human-Zolan hybrid, and depending on when Zola was discovered that could potentially be problematic. We also have to remember that Michael's pointy ears are the result of mixing blood from one species that's got spock ears and one that's full blown space elf.

[RedWolf]

he lacks the distinguishing characteristics endemic to Zolans, Zentradi, and human hybrids.

Hence I see him as a human.

Okay, so pure speculation based loosely on a single line of dialogue about Kariba's father, assumptions based on god alone knows what, a faulty comparison to boot... it's a fallacy hat trick!

Because Macross Dynamite 7 doesn't delve into the motivations of Kariba's father (or, in fact, depict him at all), we can't make any definitive statement about how his father viewed the space whales, so let's avoid projecting our own assumptions onto it please. The last thing we need is for someone to take those unfounded assumptions and run with them... we'd end up with a repeat of the Shaloom situation. Insofar as how most people view them, that seems to be rather a projection of your own views onto it again, as Kariba seems to be a pretty transparent Captain Ahab... right down to his white whale fixation.

From Kariba's own words his father was whaler and that he created his criminal organization to honor him.

Graham was more irrational thus the Ahab archetype. Kariba can't earn his "living" with the White Whale in the way. Since there are different pod groupings like the lost whales the White Whale isn't always there to interfere.

As for the Vajra, have you already forgotten that the U.N. Spacy kept the existence of the Vajra a secret ever since their first encounter with them in 2040? They wouldn't enjoy the support of the tree-hugging environmentalists because their very existence was kept secret, and let's face it... they're not above shooting back when someone starts giving them crap.

Geez I was talking of Frontier era.

A series of interdependent, unfounded assumptions.

My assumptions and interpretation of the show.

Another unfounded assumption. We have no way of knowing how the Protoculture regarded the space whales, if they even encountered them at all.

What is the favorite symbol of the Protoculture? Oh yes the Spiral! The White Whale has lived at least a million years I doubt they wouldn't have seen whales during their yearly migration during their grand experiment of manipulating Marsupials especially if they saw when Whales die. Whales die in sinking fashion of the Spiral. The Vajra has a Spiral structure on their homeworld. Red ones which are the basis the Glaug form have them.

Not necessarily an indication of common genetic tampering. It could be a simple case of convergent evolution. Note that the existing accounts don't mention the Protoculture dicking around with any of the local wildlife except those they were angling to make into sub-Protoculture species. So, of course, this asserted connection may very well be nothing of the sort.

You miss the point. I was talking of common themes between Macross Zero and Macross Dynamite 7 and with the revelation in Frontier and how somehow it all fits together.

Considering that fold quartz was considered revolutionary in its ability to allow folding through fold faults, I don't think so. If the U.N. had such a valuable resource sitting right under their noses, they would've exploited it by now.

From what Elma said Whales are sold and used for space engines. Which I think she means Fold engines since the species are natural space folding creatures. Given they are wanted in the Black Market they probably make Fold engines function better to a certain degree but not breaking the Fold Fault barrier.

It's certainly possible, though it seems somehow unlikely, since that would have to entail a full-blood Zentradi mating with a human-Zolan hybrid, and depending on when Zola was discovered that could potentially be problematic. We also have to remember that Michael's pointy ears are the result of mixing blood from one species that's got spock ears and one that's full blown space elf.

I was first surprised that Michael is of Zolan descent when I heard it. Too metrosexual and not one bit of manly hair. Zolan males have hair on their arms. Then again he is a mongrel.

I doubt that the builders of that Ruin on Rax envisioned a girl chaser as a symbol of peace.

[Seto Kaiba]

Hence I see him as a human.

Which isn't the rationale you were espousing before...

From Kariba's own words his father was whaler and that he created his criminal organization to honor him.

Okay, you're half-right this time... in truth, Kariba says that his father was a whaler and that he fulfilled his wishes not by created the poaching group, but by expanding it.

My assumptions and interpretation of the show.

And posting assumptions as fact is bad practice, as is using them as supporting points while making your argument. You have, thus far, been posting stuff that is simply and demonstrably untrue, mixed with a fair bit of material that can't be supported by any currently-available source. We've been through this once recently already, with someone who posted assumptions as fact, and it didn't end well. Unfounded speculation simply has no place in a debate. If you want to make educated guesses, go right ahead... but don't just guess wildly.

What is the favorite symbol of the Protoculture? Oh yes the Spiral! The White Whale has lived at least a million years I doubt they wouldn't have seen whales during their yearly migration during their grand experiment of manipulating Marsupials especially if they saw when Whales die. Whales die in sinking fashion of the Spiral. The Vajra has a Spiral structure on their homeworld. Red ones which are the basis the Glaug form have them.

Oh yes, and nothing forms or moves in spirals without intervention from the Protoculture... right.

Anyway, this wonderful counterargument of yours depends on another unproven assertion... namely, that the Zolans are another species that was manipulated by the Protoculture. It seems likely that they were, but there is no hard evidence of such available in the animation, and no explicit confirmation outside of it. It's the same sort of gray area as the whole "Mardook are the Protoculture" thing, where all the evidence points to it being the case, but the show's creators leave it unanswered. As such, we have no way of confirming whether or not the Protoculture ever encountered the planet Zola and/or the galactic whales. The galaxy is a mind-bogglingly huge place.

Also, has there ever been explicit confirmation (in-universe) that the Glaug and/or Regult were based on the Vajra? I'm not aware of any, but then again I haven't been paying a huge amount of attention to the Macross Frontier stuff in Chronicle. Unless there has been, we can't say that's true either... the Vajra have undergone hundreds of thousands of years of guided evolution since the Protoculture encountered them... they could very well have copied some of those ideas from Zentradi mecha they encountered rather than vice-versa.

[miles316]

Which isn't the rationale you were espousing before...

Also, has there ever been explicit confirmation (in-universe) that the Glaug and/or Regult were based on the Vajra? I'm not aware of any, but then again I haven't been paying a huge amount of attention to the Macross Frontier stuff in Chronicle. Unless there has been, we can't say that's true either... the Vajra have undergone hundreds of thousands of years of guided evolution since the Protoculture encountered them... they could very well have copied some of those ideas from Zentradi mecha they encountered rather than vice-versa.

The only machines in Macross that remotely resemble Vajra is the Anti-UN Octos.

Edited March 11, 2010 by miles316

[RedWolf]

Also, has there ever been explicit confirmation (in-universe) that the Glaug and/or Regult were based on the Vajra? I'm not aware of any, but then again I haven't been paying a huge amount of attention to the Macross Frontier stuff in Chronicle. Unless there has been, we can't say that's true either... the Vajra have undergone hundreds of thousands of years of guided evolution since the Protoculture encountered them... they could very well have copied some of those ideas from Zentradi mecha they encountered rather than vice-versa.

There are those initial sketches I've seen of Ai-kun type resembling the Regult more. Plus there is Grace's explanation that the Protoculture was such a fanboy of the Vajra that they copied them.

If you think about it Regults were based on the two legged Ai-kun type while the Glaug is based on the hutching Red type.

[Gubaba]

There are those initial sketches I've seen of Ai-kun type resembling the Regult more. Plus there is Grace's explanation that the Protoculture was such a fanboy of the Vajra that they copied them.

If you think about it Regults were based on the two legged Ai-kun type while the Glaug is based on the hutching Red type.

Look, RedWolf...your theories are interesting, and they may indeed be correct...but I think that if you STATED UPFRONT THAT THESE ARE YOUR ASSUMPTIONS, others would be more willing to engage with your ideas.

There's a massive gulf between "I believe that the battle pods are based on the Vajra" and "The battle pods are based on the Vajra."

ANd if someone can pull out a bit from Macross Chronicle or something that proves you wrong, then you've just been proven wrong, and should probably let it go. Facts beat assumptions. Always.

[Seto Kaiba]

There are those initial sketches I've seen of Ai-kun type resembling the Regult more. Plus there is Grace's explanation that the Protoculture was such a fanboy of the Vajra that they copied them.

Okay... you do realize that unused concept art is non-canon, right? It means nothing. Considering the Protoculture relics scattered on the Vajra homeworld are designs similar to the birdhuman sculptures found during the Mayan island conflict back in 2008, the logical assumption is that biotechnological constructs like the birdhuman are the result of emulating the Vajra. Since the tangible links to Zentradi mecha don't exist outside of non-canon early concept art, it's unwise to infer a link there...

If you think about it Regults were based on the two legged Ai-kun type while the Glaug is based on the hutching Red type.

Dubious at best... as I said before, the preliminary design art isn't canon and thus forming a theory around it is unwise. I would say that the design similarities between the Stage 2 Vajra and the Regult are only very general things like the knee joint being reverse-jointed. Otherwise, the Stage 2 Vajra has much more in common with the Big Zam than with the Regult. Likewise, the only commonality between the design of the Glaug and the adult (big red) Vajra is that they have a large beam gun mounted up top. Otherwise they couldn't be more different.

[RedWolf]

Look, RedWolf...your theories are interesting, and they may indeed be correct...but I think that if you STATED UPFRONT THAT THESE ARE YOUR ASSUMPTIONS, others would be more willing to engage with your ideas.

This is forum for open discussion of fiction. I'm not asking to accept my theories but analysis various information of a fictional setting is something I enjoy.

You and Seto enjoy reading supplementary materials of this fiction called Macross.

[Gubaba]

This is forum for open discussion of fiction. I'm not asking to accept my theories but analysis various information of a fictional setting is something I enjoy.

You and Seto enjoy reading supplementary materials of this fiction called Macross.

Still, my point is that you're not stating them AS THEORIES.

Just putting a little "Maybe" or "I think" before each of your statements would be a great help, and ease a lot of confusion.

[sketchley]

Still, my point is that you're not stating them AS THEORIES.

Just putting a little "Maybe" or "I think" before each of your statements would be a great help, and ease a lot of confusion.

Seconded.

[Freiflug88]

I doubt that the builders of that Ruin on Rax envisioned a girl chaser as a symbol of peace.

1. The planet was Lex not Rax

2.

Come to think of it Michael does have very similar hair to that creepy girl chaser who chased the other symbol of peace in M7 Dynamite... Wait a minuate here is a thought...

Some time after Dynamite Elma goes to Macross 7 to be a singer and run ins into the creepy Firebomber manager who is into "little girls" like her. Things happen... the manager turns out to be a functional hermaphite cuz its anime... and she gives birth to Jessica and Michael Blanc after moving to the Frontier to get as far away as possible from that crazy woman.

Just look at Michael and Jessica's resemblance to the manager and Liz, Elma's older sister!

Of course the fact that Michael is listed as being born in 2042 5 years before M7 Dynamite does leave a giant gaping hole to my theory though... but hey at least it shows us that if Michael is indeed part Zolan than Zola had to have been found at the latest 9 months prior to Michael's and most likely his older sister's birthday on 2042.

Oh yes, and nothing forms or moves in spirals without intervention from the Protoculture... right.

Exactly! Unless of course its being sucked up by a giant transforming robot space ship with a vacuum cleaner!

[Gubaba]

1. The planet was Lex not Rax

No, no...RedWolf is right here. The planet's name is ラクス, which can be variously read as "Rax" or "Lux" or several other combinations...but definitely not "Lex."

[Freiflug88]

No, no...RedWolf is right here. The planet's name is ラクス, which can be variously read as "Rax" or "Lux" or several other combinations...but definitely not "Lex."

My bad. I meant to type Lux as that is what my subs call the planet.

[Gubaba]

My bad. I meant to type Lux as that is what my subs call the planet.

Ah. In that case, you're both right.