Technological comparison between Macross and other Sci-fi

[Master Dex]

It is interesting how Cloud Nine does a small scale version of what the city ships seem to do in Macross. However I bet they are on a chemical plant, that sounds more like colonial technology, especially since they are on the run.

[Mr March]

Master Dex

I think that's one of the reasons Macross created ship combat like it did in the original SDF Macross; to make sure it was simple. They didn't want to focus too much on the ship combat, so they made the ships with really big guns to simplify ship combat. But it just goes to show us that not all sci-fi can be everything to everyone. I love Macross and BSGR all the same and wouldn't change them one bit (except for erasing Macross 7 from existence)

[Master Dex]

Master Dex

I think that's one of the reasons Macross created ship combat like it did in the original SDF Macross; to make sure it was simple. They didn't want to focus too much on the ship combat, so they made the ships with really big guns to simplify ship combat. But it just goes to show us that not all sci-fi can be everything to everyone. I love Macross and BSGR all the same and wouldn't change them one bit (except for erasing Macross 7 from existence)

Actually now that I am watching Macross 7 it isn't bothering me nearly as much as I thought it would. It probably helps though that I have recently grown to really like Fire Bomber music so I am not bothered with hearing it so constantly (thank Frontier ep.17 for that, first time I heard more than just Planet Dance). I am currently 9 episodes in (episode counter in my sig now) and I am finding it to be interesting. It really is a show more focused on the characters of the band rather than the on going Protodevlin conflict happening around them.

Of course no liking of the music or tolerance to the story can change the fact that Basara is a stuck up self absorbed jerk, . However I can respect him for being a good singer and somehow a very talented pilot (they never say where he learned to fly... maybe Ray taught him).

[Shaka_Z]

you know... it wouldnt be terribly difficult to make a macross-like show now. and given BSGR's success at balancing out the action and drama aspects, it could be made believable - macro-zentran notwithstanding.

to be honest, I would probably start with a live-action adaptation of Zero to test the waters. no huge risk, and only one giant alien to really worry about.

[RedWolf]

you know... it wouldnt be terribly difficult to make a macross-like show now. and given BSGR's success at balancing out the action and drama aspects, it could be made believable - macro-zentran notwithstanding.

to be honest, I would probably start with a live-action adaptation of Zero to test the waters. no huge risk, and only one giant alien to really worry about.

One problem with that is Harmony Gold.

Okay lets go to Toaster talk. "They have a plan" vs "Keiaku Doori or Just as planned"

The Colonials built the Model 005 cylons as labor and soldiers for their intercolony conflict.

The Macross people built Sharon Apple as an idol to worship.

Cylons rebeled that led to a 12 year war ending in armistice.

Sharon took control of the Macross, the humans , the defense network and the X-9 Ghost to give Isamu a deadly thrill ride.

Colonial: You people made a frakking singing idol? You're weird.

Macross citizen: Far better than your terminator scenario.

"They have a plan" human cylons vs "Just as planned" Grace O'Connor with the 4 people in her head and Brera Stern.

Similarities both resurrect in new bodies.

Both their bodies are strong. Though I'd say Grace and Brera are the better models. Skinjobs are obsolete compared to them.

Caprica Six with her head Baltar makes her like a loony in heat while Grace has 4 other pesonalities whom she can make a sensible and witty conversation without arousing suspicion.

Edited August 18, 2008 by RedWolf

[Shaka_Z]

I agree... HG is a royal PITA. thankfully they cant touch the original Macross mecha designs or charater names for this new robotech movie thats in the works, so all it would really take is a re-naming of Macross Zero to something else... perhaps Ataria Zero?

[Morpheus]

Contributing to the CatGirl massacre....

Galactica are using flak cannon as an AA defense, and AFAIK is one of the best AA weapon. SDF-1 and other capital ship on Macross mostly relies on its VF squadron and Destroid for cover, although the massive AA gun emplacement on SDF-1 after 2012 could do a better job comparable to a flak barrage.

But then again, BSG is a war drama while Macross is mostly an opera soap love drama

[ChronoReverse]

The thing is, (normal) flak isn't terribly useful against Valkyries. Real life airplanes are vulnerable because they're not armored or heavily armors. Meanwhile, Valkyrie armor in the protoype VF-0 iteration was already as tough as tank armor.

Frankly, capital ships bristling with guns seems to be the more unwieldy setup. In space you have extreme line of sight. Therefore you really want to engage from as far as possible. A giant beam gun that has really long range was well as being really wide works quite well in that regard. Railguns also have the range but at space distances, even a minute shudder would throw it off by miles. Missiles are obsoleted at long range when point defenses are capable of shooting multiple missiles simultaneously.

Considering the technology available in Macross, it's not completely farfetched.

Edited August 18, 2008 by ChronoReverse

[RedWolf]

The thing is, (normal) flak isn't terribly useful against Valkyries. Real life airplanes are vulnerable because they're not armored or heavily armors. Meanwhile, Valkyrie armor in the protoype VF-0 iteration was already as tough as tank armor.

Frankly, capital ships bristling with guns seems to be the more unwieldy setup. In space you have extreme line of sight. Therefore you really want to engage from as far as possible. A giant beam gun that has really long range was well as being really wide works quite well in that regard. Railguns also have the range but at space distances, even a minute shudder would throw it off by miles. Missiles are obsoleted at long range when point defenses are capable of shooting multiple missiles simultaneously.

Considering the technology available in Macross, it's not completely farfetched.

How about a Viper-Valkyrie hybrid?

VF-X-7 Ghost

Shoji Kawamori watch the original BSG much?

[Master Dex]

The thing is, (normal) flak isn't terribly useful against Valkyries. Real life airplanes are vulnerable because they're not armored or heavily armors. Meanwhile, Valkyrie armor in the protoype VF-0 iteration was already as tough as tank armor.

Frankly, capital ships bristling with guns seems to be the more unwieldy setup. In space you have extreme line of sight. Therefore you really want to engage from as far as possible. A giant beam gun that has really long range was well as being really wide works quite well in that regard. Railguns also have the range but at space distances, even a minute shudder would throw it off by miles. Missiles are obsoleted at long range when point defenses are capable of shooting multiple missiles simultaneously.

Considering the technology available in Macross, it's not completely farfetched.

You are absolutely right and I agree. However something to consider is in BSG all the biggest and best space battles have been rather close range and well within sight of the enemy so the weapons systems they have been using would still work fairly decently.

My favorite BSG moment is probably from season 2's "The Captain's Hand" where the Pegasus under Lee Adama then as acting commander as the current commander was dealing with an engineering issue charged against I believe 2 Basestars (maybe 3) and knocked one out before they got their FTL back and jumped out. Shows how much more powerful the more modern and up to date the Mercury class Battlestars (like Pegasus) are compared to Galactica which was a refitted 50 year old Battlestar.

[VF5SS]

How about a Viper-Valkyrie hybrid?

Shoji Kawamori watch the original BSG much?

I think it's based on this.

[Morpheus]

BSG battles are mostly close ranged with missiles thrown off in between.

However Babylon 5 battle had similiar style to general anime (laser/beam spamming at long range). The point is that battles are naval warfare and fought at distances (unlike ST). Seeing the Mimbari warcruisers spamming beam fire is just like watching Zentraedi ships. Also the new fold effect is vaguely similar to B5 jump gates. . Not to mention the main cannon of Victory is a tribute to Yamato Cannon (on which macross cannon is based).

[Fade Rathnik]

Well all three examples in this argument have some form of Jump Tech that can put an aggressor with in close combat range in an instant. This puts the need for long and short range weaponry on equal footing. With space being vast long range will always be in need. Which puts tactical requirements much the same between the three series, with large needs in tactical mobility and hitting power. Large battle wagons classically handle like a cow under the best of conditions, and likely a drunken one when delivering/receiving punishment. B5, BSGR, and Macross all have very fighter centric militaries, this handles the tactical mobility. They're shipping is also much the same. Large all purpose battle units, that field fighters and enter ship to ship combat. In Macross and B5 more specialized smaller units are known, I can only assume in BSGR they would be there aswell.

[Mr March]

I'd take the analysis one step further and ask why don't they have fold/jump weapons? If both Macross and BSGR have the capability to conduct precision folds/FTL jumps with fighter-sized FTL capable craft, what is stopping them from creating the FTL equivalent of a cruise missile? Hell, the fold booster in Macross already looks like a missile; just double the size, stick in guidance, sub-light propulsion and a warhead. You then defold this "Fold Missile" inside a space craft. Something large and slow moving, like, an Island attached to a NMC vessel or a Vajra mothership. KABOOM!

[Fade Rathnik]

Yikes.... I guess that all depends on how much a compact fold drive costs. Plus lets face it thats just too powerfull for a tactical weapon. In FreeSpace 2 volition evaluated the idea but found it way too powerfull to put in the final game. But a theater weapon like a DE or some other planet killer would be well suited to the job of fold weapon.

[RedWolf]

I'd take the analysis one step further and ask why don't they have fold/jump weapons? If both Macross and BSGR have the capability to conduct precision folds/FTL jumps with fighter-sized FTL capable craft, what is stopping them from creating the FTL equivalent of a cruise missile? Hell, the fold booster in Macross already looks like a missile; just double the size, stick in guidance, sub-light propulsion and a warhead. You then defold this "Fold Missile" inside a space craft. Something large and slow moving, like, an Island attached to a NMC vessel or a Vajra mothership. KABOOM!

Folding space I believe is different from scrambling molecules and reasembling it back that is typical of beaming.

Not to mention for a folding bomb the calculations has to be very precise.

What if a fold bomb hits a fold dislocation? It'll take days before it arrives at it's target.

By that time the target will be ready.

Edited August 20, 2008 by RedWolf

[Morpheus]

I'd take the analysis one step further and ask why don't they have fold/jump weapons? If both Macross and BSGR have the capability to conduct precision folds/FTL jumps with fighter-sized FTL capable craft, what is stopping them from creating the FTL equivalent of a cruise missile? Hell, the fold booster in Macross already looks like a missile; just double the size, stick in guidance, sub-light propulsion and a warhead. You then defold this "Fold Missile" inside a space craft. Something large and slow moving, like, an Island attached to a NMC vessel or a Vajra mothership. KABOOM!

Looks like 'mine warfare' from Seikai series, where they utilize mines (aka anti-matter guided missiles) which can 'fold' into bubble space and attack the enemy fleet there.

[Master Dex]

Folding space I believe is different from scrambling molecules and reasembling it back that is typical of beaming.

Not to mention for a folding bomb the calculations has to be very precise.

What if a fold bomb hits a fold dislocation? It'll take days before it arrives at it's target.

By that time the target will be ready.

Agreed, the target may have moved by the time the weapon gets there. Then you waste your shot. Something that can seek out targets far away and fold to them maybe but then it is close to AI and we know how the people of both Macross and BSG feel about AI.

[LordDremen]

If this weapon(FDEB) ever became a mainstay in NUNS it would render 4.7 million ship zentran fleets damn near obsolete.

FDEB= Folding Dimension Eater Bomb

Edited August 20, 2008 by LordDremen

[RedWolf]

I've been going over the Battlestar Forum board and they present some reasons why the Galactica has to retract her flight pods.

It is said that the Galactica retracts its pods to conserve fuel. Fuel being tylium.

Now how does this relate to FTL jumping?

When an FTL happens it creates a Warp bubble around the ship.

Now we've seen the Macross take with it South Ataria and also in Macross 7 Varautan ships try to take City 7 with it folding.

Fold Engines in Macross can extend its warp bubble more than in Galactica.

[Master Dex]

To add to that, Pegasus doesn't have retractable flight pods because it probably has a later and better model of the FTL engine.

[dreamweaver13]

I'd take the analysis one step further and ask why don't they have fold/jump weapons? If both Macross and BSGR have the capability to conduct precision folds/FTL jumps with fighter-sized FTL capable craft, what is stopping them from creating the FTL equivalent of a cruise missile? Hell, the fold booster in Macross already looks like a missile; just double the size, stick in guidance, sub-light propulsion and a warhead. You then defold this "Fold Missile" inside a space craft. Something large and slow moving, like, an Island attached to a NMC vessel or a Vajra mothership. KABOOM!

That would be the boson bomb (did i remember the term correctly?) from Martian Successor Nadesico. as if the "chulip crystals" similarity weren't enough. hehe.

and maybe that's what the MDE that grace designed does. we know it's a dimension eater, so why grace's speech about developing the new weapon from the fold crystals, and learning the secret of the queen? could it be that she has discovered the main queen's homeworld, and intends to fold the MDE directly at her?

[ChronoReverse]

The only thing about that type of bomb despite its efficacy is that you have to target it.

But if you can see your target, you can shoot at it. And if your gun is the Macross Cannon, your target is just as dead (along with every other target within a half kilometer of it).

[d3v]

IMO, flak cannons are used in Macross (and anime in general) simply because it harkens back to older WW2 footage of ships lighting up the night sky with a large barrage of AA fire which generally looks very cool and/or gives off a better sense of urgency then say a ship firing of a few SAMs to take out whatever does get through the fighter screen.

[Mr March]

Fade Rathnik

Doubt cost would override it's extreme usefulness. Fold Drives and fold boosters seem common enough, especially by the 2059 era. But there might be other factors at work as well. Still, it seems a logical application of the technology, even if it is a little too crazy

RedWolf

I doubt the folding bomb would be used over really long distances measured in light years (though that is a fascinating use in and of itself). But I'm talking over light second, light minutes or light hours of distance. Even as a close range weapon (main gun range of one light second or under) such a weapon would be extremely useful.

One countermeasure I can see being used against the Fold Bomb is jamming. Without a proper fix on the enemy position, it'd be very hard to fold into the midst of them.

ChronoReverse

Well the idea would be to utilize such folding weapons using point ships, like the VE-1 (ala DYRL) but without the need for a big ship. That's the whole point behind the cruise missile, except applied to an FTL-possible universe. Hence detection and evasion would become a much more powerful order of battle with such a weapon on Macross warfare. At any rate, I still think it's as plausible a weapon in Macross as any and even seems a logical next step in weapons development.

[d3v]

The only barrier to ultra-short range fold weaponry would be on a cost per fold basis. In the end, it may simply be that tossing bombs and missiles the traditional way is still more cost effective than folding them in. The cost of fold boosters could mean that its more economically viable to have a booster that you can use multiple times over than one which would be blown up part of a bomb/missile. If I recall correctly, the closest we get to using ultra-short range folds to deliver ordnance was when a certain fire red valkyrie employed a fold booster to deliver a very large culture warfare weapon to the bridge of a Meltran flagship.

[RedWolf]

The only barrier to ultra-short range fold weaponry would be on a cost per fold basis. In the end, it may simply be that tossing bombs and missiles the traditional way is still more cost effective than folding them in. The cost of fold boosters could mean that its more economically viable to have a booster that you can use multiple times over than one which would be blown up part of a bomb/missile. If I recall correctly, the closest we get to using ultra-short range folds to deliver ordnance was when a certain fire red valkyrie employed a fold booster to deliver a very large culture warfare weapon to the bridge of a Meltran flagship.

And it was Awesome.

[Master Dex]

This talk of fold bombs and such reminds me Star Wars did have a FTL weapon of sorts, but only in the expanded universe, not the movies.

It was called the Galaxy Gun and it fired a projectile that went into hyperspace (and was pretty fast as well) and then is left hyperspace when it got to it's target, which was usually a planet as it was designed to be a planet killer like many things in Star Wars. When it left hyperspace it hit the planet with great speed coming out and with what the projectile had aboard created a chain reaction of explosions about as or more powerful than many megaton nuclear explosions that swept over the entire planet until there was nothing left living. I can't remember how it kept up all the explosions and this is really only a broad explanation. With this though the gun itself can stay at one point and target planets anywhere. If I recall correctly it was one of Tarkin's pet projects aside from the Sun Crusher (which isn't as amazing as it sounds) and the various Death Star work he was involved in (and died on), but I know that Palpatine's clone used it some number of years after Return of the Jedi.. I believed R2-D2 destroyed the Galaxy Gun by crashing Palpatine's really big ship into it (R2 survived though). R2 is by far the coolest character in the entire Star Wars universe.

Anyway, enough of that, back to Macross. I just thought I'd bring that up since we were talking about weapons that utilize FTL technologies.

[Kelsain]

My friends and I played with this idea when we played Star Wars RPG. We called them SLAMs: Super Luminal (Something) Missile. They were equipped with short-range hyperdrives, with just a couple light second range. The fun part was that the enemy would get hit by the missile before they even witnessed the launch.

As with many things, we got out of hand and decided that, while cool, the SLAM was making the game boring. That was around M+ time, so of course, we had YF-19s, 21s. We also had Ghosts with SW-level droid intelligence. Good times...

Edited August 21, 2008 by Kelsain

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

This thread is about technological comparison between Macross and other Sci-fi.

First off Macross x NBSG

Vipers vs Valkyries

Vipers are smaller than Valkyries. Now the big difference that I've observed vipers can do a 180 turn in .38 seconds. Valkyries don't do that in fighter mode as they are modeled after real fighter craft performance. But the advantage of a Valkyrie is in its three modes. Fighter, Gerwalk and Battroid.

In terms of missile load out a Valkyrie is greater. (Itano Circus effect)

Plus Valkyrie's have special additional equipment such as fast packs, super packs, armor or armor packs and fold boosters.

Vipers don't have FTL or special FTL equipment. Only raptors can jump.

In terms of speed that I'm not sure about the two which is faster. Vipers like most colonial ship tech require, refined tylium, which has a higher energy output than uranium but does not emit radiation though it is combustible. Valkyries uses thermonuclear engines.

Valks have the robot mode which in the macross universe makes its body harder and tougher which explains why hikaru could crash into the row of concrete buildings with the VF-1D and not die. I think the valkyrie's variable nature and its cartoonish ability to dodge things easily (or is this only when max and hikaru uses it?) is what will give it the edge. It really depends which universe the fighters are fighting in. If the viper was cartoonish it might be able to dodge all the micromissiles too.

I don't really like the idea that the valks have to act too realistically sometimes. Because it then means that the pilots dodging all those micro-missiles would end up killing themselves. Or that max could not dodge all the bullets in that corridor fight scene in DYRL without breaking parts of his body.

It's like the 180 degree spin move in mouse-driven FPS games. We know it is impossible in real life to do something like it without snapping your spinal cord, so we just accept that even though there are realistic-sounding specs to all these machines, that in the show you might see something that you know is beyond belief but still not care. Basara does some crazy looking stunts in macross 7 with his fire valkyrie. Spinning, strafing, twisting all while using a guitar control system and singing at the same time.

Edited August 21, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[RedWolf]

Watch the video

As you can see Max and Millia endure Gs while doing their insane manuevers.

The Cylon raiders are comparable to the Vipers with the 180 turn.

But a wily ace lets say Isamu could reverse thrust in gerwalk mode leg engines.

As they turn 180 they get killed because they got their tails exposed.

With exception of the pilot miniseries. Cylon raiders and Vipers are fans of close quarter dogfights.

A Valkyrie can take them out with micro missiles and beam guns at long range.

Raider suicide ramming? PPB Punch.

[Master Dex]

As for G's hurting them in these high speed manuvers... well while they've never mentioned it in Macross I don't think it hurts to assume that there is some technology like an inertia canceler or damper. Yes it sounds Star Trek because they use the term more than anyone but a lot of Sci-fi stuff uses inertia canceling technologies so they can have their ships do crazy things without having to find a reason for all the people not being piles of blood on the walls and floors of the ship.

It would seem at times Macross doesn't have this kind of thing, especially in M+ movie edition but it may and Guld crazy maneuver there was too much even for the technology as he had to out do a very advanced machine AI.

Edited August 21, 2008 by Master Dex

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

At close quarters the robot mode allows the pilot to spin very quickly and in the opening sequence of SDF:M you see the vf-1J do just that with guns blazing. Valks also have the head turret which (guided by a persons eyeballs as you can see in macross zero when roy shoots down incoming missiles by painting them with his eye) allows independent movement from the direction of the robots body for added fine accuracy.

Robot mode = close combat with gunpod.

fighter = shoot with the missiles and run away from enemies own missiles.

gerwalk = hard brake/reverse thrust to shoot while facing forward.

Macross zero illustrates the usages of each one when shin beats nora using all three modes' advantages.

Gerwalk is somewhere between robot and fighter mode. Doesn't create as much drag as robot mode but allows the robot arm to shoot towards the side for people close by. Robot mode has the most drag and moves the slowest but as I said the armor is better and you can spin fast in space. Fighter allows speed and you can only use the head guns to shoot at your sides. (ie when max uses the head lasers in fighter mode against miriya in DYRL)

So really the advantage of being able to shoot while moving backwards after spinning is the same as being able to transform into robot mode and shoot while moving backwards after a nice boost in fighter mode. When you get at close range, robot mode armor adds more protection plus you can shoot an any direction from where you are facing. That means you can strafe sideways while pointing your gunpod in the direction the enemy is moving; dodging the incoming fire while shooting in the direction the pilot is going to fly towards. You wouldn't use the fighter mode if the battroid can allow easier turning. So that's why I mention the bot mode energy conversion armor since this is the mode you would use to deal with a person who could out turn your fighter mode. You get more precision by being still while shooting by being in robot mode.

Now the good thing about robot mode is that even if it is idiotic to fly backwards while shooting forward because of the danger of crashing into things: the armor will probably protect you. In SDF:M Hikaru crashes into buildings without dying just because he transformed into robot mode which is what was supposed to save his life.

Edited August 22, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[d3v]

And it was Awesome.

Very awesome indeed!

As for G's hurting them in these high speed manuvers... well while they've never mentioned it in Macross I don't think it hurts to assume that there is some technology like an inertia canceler or damper. Yes it sounds Star Trek because they use the term more than anyone but a lot of Sci-fi stuff uses inertia canceling technologies so they can have their ships do crazy things without having to find a reason for all the people not being piles of blood on the walls and floors of the ship.

It would seem at times Macross doesn't have this kind of thing, especially in M+ movie edition but it may and Guld crazy maneuver there was too much even for the technology as he had to out do a very advanced machine AI.

Wasn't it stated somewhere that the VF-19 and VF-22 were operating at the limit of what was possible for a human without any sort of assistance (cyborg body for the VF-27, EX-Gear for the VF-25 and possibly the VF-171).

Edited August 22, 2008 by d3v

[Master Dex]

Wasn't it stated somewhere that the VF-19 and VF-22 were operating at the limit of what was possible for a human without any sort of assistance (cyborg body for the VF-27, EX-Gear for the VF-25 and possibly the VF-171).

I never heard it in those words. I have read though that the VF-25 does surpass the VF-19's performance. However that scene in Plus really seems like Guld is giving it everything that can can possibly give.