Mr March

Grace certainly was human in the anime, since the series covers both her past and present, which is how we know about her character arc. And her being a human that became trans-human is entirely the point of her character and the theme the writers wished to explore in Macross Frontier. The rest is ascribing traits to Grace which she does not possess. I will admit, the "subject" of trans-humanism is more broad than the way it was explored in Frontier, but that isn't Grace and that isn't Macross Frontier. Precisely. I also found her character enjoying and entertaining, but as she was intended, not as she might have been had another writer written another series about the same subject.

Actually, Grace was human and all the baggage that entails. As for the rest, I think it's safe to say (debate about writing quality aside) Grace wasn't the protagonist nor was the purpose of Frontier to create an academic rumination upon human evolution vs. trans-human evolution

Given that the writers of Frontier never described the cyber-world and that no one can say how such a cybernetic utopia would function, debating it's rules is no debate at all. All we have is human nature, which hasn't diminished within Grace in the slightest since her trans-human migration. In fact, one could argue she's the worst of human nature. And as benevolent a way as we could ever try to portray Grace, her motives were never born out of altruism, but hatred and vengeance. She saw a means to an end, not the uplift of human existence. And if the motive was ever benevolent, there would also be a benevolent way to persuade others of the value of the cybernetic utopia, not impose it unilaterally. Like I said, Grace is just another dictatorship, but simply played on a different field.

Well, look at it this way: it's not like Macross fandom hasn't faced these situations before. The truth about Robotech has been publicly known for decades, but people of all kinds have made up their own minds about that. All you can do is present the true facts and let people use their own judgment. If some choose not to accept those true facts, the loss is theirs and we can pity them for that. But once you have presented the true facts, that's where your responsibility ends and their own personal responsibility begins. You can't force people to change their minds. It's also worth considering the power of bias, ESPECIALLY among fandom. If all the speculation about Shaloom's motives is true, he is obviously strongly biased against Frontier/Kawamori and any attempts to discredit his little endeavour. Hell, the likelihood that Shaloom invented the whole thing, went to great pains to cover his tracks and played upon the inability of the small Macross fandom to secure solid information about the totality of Macross trivia really displays the depth of his bias against Frontier and Kawamori. If he tried it with any other franchise, he would have had a thousand fans disproving his assertions. But because this is the English fandom and source material on the Macross franchise is rare and hard to obtain/translate, it creates an climate ripe for deception. As for other members like Final Vegeta, well we know where they stand; what is true and what is not is really irrelevant when approaching that level of determined animosity against Frontier/Kawamori. And quite frankly, I think Macross fandom is better off without them promoting Frontier or Kawamori. I wouldn't want other people deceived into Frontier/Kawamori fandom any more than I'd want people deceived into avoiding Frontier/Kawamori.

Whether Grace and her cohorts in the Macross Galaxy fleet were altruistic might not even be an issue. What form of rule would hold sway in their new cybernetic utopia? In any social system, you need ways to deal with fundamentally differing points of view. Sure Grace and her cohorts are all of the same opinion, but what happens when someone else isn't (or even some change their minds). There would have to be some kind of government, even if the laws of governance in this cybernetic utopia don't resemble anything we now perceive as government. And who is likely to be calling the shots in this cybernetic utopia if not Grace herself? So I doubt her motives and those of the Macross Galaxy co-conspirators were really altruistic at all. Even if everything came to pass as Grace desired and all Humans/Zentradi were either wiped out or migrated to a post-human existence, Grace would likely be the one in charge of it all. Sounds like just another dictatorships to me, perhaps even worse given the pervasiveness of a disembodied consciousness that can be everywhere and in every machine.

I agree. As for the rest, I wouldn't put it past this Shaloom fella to inject real Macross facts into his little fanfiction article in an attempt to add legitimacy to the endeavour. But at that point, we're all better off if Gubaba spent his time translating REAL sources of official Macross trivia rather than trying to pick the few facts out of a convoluted mess of fiction that is likely deliberately designed to be confusing.

It's Bizarro World Macross! :lol:

That VF-19F looks great. Can't wait to see more.

AHA! So the real plot and intentions comes to light! For shame Shaloom, for shame You know, that makes a lot of sense. Especially given the ridiculous 100 page post Final Vegeta made. I wondered where the hell the effort behind that whole theatrical production came from. It was almost written in some kind of "this will be the post to end all posts" on the subject I'm definitely saving this information for posterity. I nominate this thread for a sticky. And three cheers for Gubaba. Never again will I doubt the worth of this investigation

I like your forum name Nerdfish I loved Grace as a villain, especially as a composite character that represented more the disturbing vision of a post-human when biotech goes beyond control. She was so easy to hate, but so much fun to hate at the same time. She wasn't really a well developed villain, but it was what she represented that made her so great. And every time she abused Sheryl, you just loved to hate Grace. Definitely one of the most fun and entertaining villains in Macross

Ahh, but wouldn't it be 15.08 tons? The VF-27 Lucifer is 12.08 tons empty plus the big heavy quantum beam gun weighs 3+ tons. Of course, there's also fuel, ammunition for the 25 mm guns and micro-missile payloads to consider. *505thAirborne kills everyone in this thread* There, that's better Anyway, not bad snakerbot.

Looking great! Well done

LOL! Initiation into the SMS is certainly elaborate

LOL! Glad you liked it I absolutely agree with you. And don't get me wrong, your effort is appreciated. We all know that misinformation about Macross has been a bane for many years. It's just sad that your efforts are being spent disproving crap like this total fan fiction of Ohnogi (I can't believe I can spell that word without looking now). It's good to know to combat this misinformation, but my point is you shouldn't have to be doing this. Shame on Shaloom.

Only Horatio himself could wrap this one up any better...

I can't say. I'm really at a loss for a motive. Could be a combination of both the obscurity of the topic and the language barrier. Your analogy makes sense; if Shawn and Graham started inventing stuff (without a context), I suppose it would cause quite a stir Ordinarily, I might just dismiss the whole issue of Ohnogi's supposed involvement in Macross Frontier as an enthusiastic fan that got a few facts wrong. But the more you describe the situation and the more details that come to light, the less likely that possibility and the more it looks like deliberate acts of sabotage.

LOL Well, maybe it is a prank. Or maybe an angry former fan of Macross. Or perhaps someone just likes to manipulate others. Or a disgruntled Robotech fan infuriated that Macross Frontier doesn't look as utter crap as Shadow Chronicles? I will say, this is kinda an insidious way of going about things, but I guess I'm just not disturbed enough to understand the motives behind this conspiracy

Interesting website. So that's the forum where the misinformation is originating? Weird.

Well, if nothing else comes of this fiasco, we can at least praise your thoroughness in providing us with an informed opinion on the matter. This topic would probably make a good FAQ thread to save for future reference, cause we know the subject will likely come up again.

Why is it if you like Macross 7 you're some mentally stunted, pedophile homosexual to be pitied for enjoying J-Pop? Why is it if you hate Macross 7 you're an over-30 American who grew up with Robotech and thinks Macross is SRS BZNS? Why do fans spend so much time rationalizing what they like and marginalizing those with whom they disagree? "Do not meddle in the affairs of fanboys, for they are blunt and quick to anger"

Nothing wrong with Flashback, just not much to talk about that hasn't already been discussed in the context of the larger Macross universe. You got the Megaroad colonization fleet, the VF-4 Lightning III, Hikaru, Misa and Minmay for the last time and a few bits of new footage with no dialogue. I think it's just really meant to be enjoyed without much discussion or debate since it doesn't really deeply explore any themes or aspects of the Macross story.

After reading this thread I just have to ask, what would be the implication(s) of Ohnogi working on Macross Frontier? From what I can tell, there's off-hand comments about Kawamori's role/influence on the series but little more than that. The only thing I can discern by reading between the lines of Ohnogi's supposed "involvement" is some disgruntled opinion of Kawamori/Frontier. Are those opinions the reason for all this research and debate? If it's fun to research or a sense of pride is being gleamed from all this, who am I to argue? But if I didn't know any better, I'd say Ohnogi's supposed involvement was all a prank, like one would find at 4chan. Digressing, I guess I'm just curious what the big "revelation" would be if Ohnogi's "involvement" was proved/disproved. Is there some great treasure of valuable Macross trivia waiting at the end of this long road? I'm sensing a big anti-climax from all this.

This is simply amazing work. It's even more impressive that you're going to do inserts with animation for the transformation. I'm blown away by the detail you're putting into this and the speed with which you're working. I can't wait to see more.

That's surprising. But the BCS might explain why Max chose the VF-22S Sturmvogel rather than a VF-19 Excalibur.

There are a few of the orchestral tracks that are just loud, bombastic fun. However, I wouldn't really call the orchestral portions of the soundtrack great. It's about the equal of John Williams, Hans Zimmer, Howard Shore, etc but most of those composers have done better. I found the slower, more unassuming tracks on the Macross Frontier OSTs were much more impressive than the pop or orchestral. IMO, songs like Aimo and Alto's Theme were brilliant tracks and easily the strongest on the albums. It wasn't a terrible soundtrack, but I wasn't blown away by it. Kanno has done better. Her orchestral work in Escaflowne was likely her best.