Bandai DX vs Arcadia questions.

[Gojira101]

So I'm new to the forums and fandom. My original exposure to Macross was late 90's & 2000's watching Macross II and Macross Plus, currently watching Frontier.

I purchased my 1st Bandai Chogokin YF-29 Isamu version. After messing with it a little I had some questions. Quick background I come from 3rd party Transformer collecting experiences mostly.

-So after handling it I can't shake the feeling that it feels more like a transforming model than a high end collectors toy too me. Is most of the line like this? I mean it feels delicate in comparison to som of the 3P Transformers I purchase (i.e. MakeToys, Fansproject, Mastermind Creations, FansToys)

-It feels less solid when tabbed together and parts seem too fall off or store securely (I'm looking at you shield) is this normal?

-Are Arcadia products just as delicate feeling too the touch? Or are they made with a thicker plastic?

Having said all that I really am enjoying it aesthetically just nervous about fiddling with it. While I understand this is very subjective I hope that someone out there could give me feedback based upon handling some of those 3rd Party Transformers, I'd love to have a equivalent of a MMC or FansToys version of a Valkyrie.

I've already ordered the VF-25f & VF-27y due too my love for Frontier and I'm eyeing the possible rerelease of the Arcadia YF-19 but I'd like some insight first before I dip too heavily into the market. Thanks ahead of time.

[jenius]

Have you been to anymoon.com? I have reviews on every toy and usually video reviews so you can see it being handled and judge on your own.

[Gojira101]

Have you been to anymoon.com? I have reviews on every toy and usually video reviews so you can see it being handled and judge on your own.

I have actually but it's a tactile question more so. That's why I referenced some 3P Transformers. So I ask this of you does Arcadia plastic feel/tolerance feel stronger or different than Bandai's? Any help is appreciated.

Also very cool reviews.

[ChaoticYeti]

It can seem that way. I would say a part of that is the glossy vs matte materials. On the YF-30 and VF-19 advance from Bandai, the finish is matte. I thibk they offer a better comparison to Arcadia's offerings.

Edited January 9, 2016 by ChaoticYeti

[jenius]

The Arcadia toys feel different but mostly due to their matte finish. Both companies use pretty thin plastic in lots of places due to necessity. You won't get a 'chunky' feel from any modern Macross toy.

[Scyla]

I will try to answer your questions. I also collect 3rd party Transformers and have several toys form the companies you mentioned.

First I would like to say that if you think they handle like a model kit I think you never touched one of the transformable VF-25 kits form Bandai. They are finicky as hell.

Second if you want to have a move solid experience I would recommend the V2 VF-1 from Arcadia/Yamato or the Macross 7 VF-19 toys from Yamato. They are solid but still more delicate than your average Transformers toy.

Third I will no continue with an overly long post of why I think that this is the case. Here we go...

Now one of the reasons why the DX Chogkin toys are the way they are is that they have to follow a given line-art (the one from the show). Since the transformations and proportions of the toy resemble a somewhat realistic scheme they can't take as much artistic freedom as the engineers of Transformers can. Basically everything is laid out for the engineers. In addition Shoji Kawamori (the designer of most of the Valkyries) is a fan of fighter-jets thus the Fighter-Mode of a Valkyrie reassemble a sleek aircraft shape as close as possible. Lastly Satelite (the production studio of Macross Frontier) created 3D models of the Frontier Valkyries and the designers have to recreate all the parts on the toys otherwise the collectors (read: I myself) wouldn't be satisfied with the result. See also the V1 VF-25 toys. You can watch Peaughs video reviews on them.

As a result the toys are not as solid and sturdy and easy to transform as say MMCs Spartan because the base design is a very lithe looking mecha. With Spartan MMC could design an engineer the joints and thick and sturdy as they wanted they could have a simple transformation with few moving parts they didn't need to include a feature where a part is attacked at one end of the toy and is reattached at the other end in a specific way, they didn't need to mold sharp bits and thin plastic pieces because it was their robot design an no one else. A freedom that the Bandai designers didn't have because the YF-29 toy needed to look like it did in the show and it needed to function like it did in the show.

So lets look at parts that are problematic on the YF-29 Durandal. First the joints. Since the base design has very little room for joints you need to design them as small as possible. This lead to some problems where the hip and shoulder joint aren't very stable because there is not much room in there. In the show the VF-25 Messiah is held together by magnets if I remember correctly so the designer didn't include room for them. Next I would like to focus on the thickness of the plastic. The plastic can't be too thick because the toy wouldn't look like in the show it would look too rounded. As an example take the spikes on the inside of the lower legs on the YF-29. They are small and easily bend if you are not careful but they need to be there for the looks. The same goes for other areas. Since the Valkyrie is so lithe several areas have thin plastic and thus handling the toy is more delicate than a very stylized Transformer. Now we come to the shield part. The shield has several functions to fulfill. First it needs to mount in a specific place but the area where it mounts needs to be thin because of the base design. Than it needs to house the dagger and have room for the hands. In addition the shield in the line art doesn't have any attachment point. Thus Bandai decided that the mounting point needs to be retractable. All these issues lead to a connection that is not as secure as it could be. Bandai refined the design with the VF-25 Renewal so the YF-29 is not in any way perfect.

Not lets get to the Yamato/Arcadia toys. They are not as delicate to handle as the Bandai toys because they have a vastly different design language because Kawamori designed them in the 80s/90s. Even the VF-0 that was originally modeled in 3D has this because canonically it is the predecessor of the VF-1. If you look at the Valkyries from Macross Plus or 7 especially they are far bulkier than the VF-25 family thus Yamato had more room to work with and the toys are more solid as a result. Since the designs of the Valkyries they released are based in drawings and Lego/balsa wood models they also have more artistic freedom for their designs. If you look at the VF-17 for example. While it is a good looking toy that is easily identifiable as the Nightmare there are some areas that don't follow the line art. The wing backpack is too large and too far away from the main body. The Battroid-Mode is not as chubby as the line-art, the gun-pod doesn't fit in the legs in one piece etc.

I don't want to imply that Bandais design is perfect and I believe that Arcadia could do a more solid job on the Messiahs (even if it costs $500 and has two applied markings in total). However they will still be more delicate to handle and more finicky to transform that your blocky Transformer. The base design is just not suitable for a sturdy toy that looks like the line-art. If you look at the Bandai releases for their Macross 7 toys that are mainly kids toys you can imagine what a YF-29 would look like if it was designed like a toy and not a collectible.

Finally I would like to discuss the state of 3rd party transformers. They also have some terrible finicky toys that are no fun to handle and parts falling off or breaking all over the place. If I compare the YF-29 with toys like the Xtransbots Apollyon or MMCs Cyclops I think the are easier to handle and don't break as fast. Especially Cyclops with his small tabs and outer shell pieces or Apollyon with the delicate silver pieces that end up on the inside of his lower legs without any place to go are prime examples where the base design is not up to par with the more solid 3rd party offerings. Or take the transformation of Maketoys Sonicdrill and FansProjects Diesel that have over the top transformations without real reason for it. Especially Sonicdrill could have a much simpler transformation for what he achieves. Don't get me wrong I like both toys because of their transformation but they really are a clusteruck. Or take MMCs Airborne Squad that have many small bits that are easily bend out of shape leaving nasty stress marks.

Also keep in mind that the YF-29 was released in 2011 which is now four years ago. I think if the would do a Re-Renewal VF-25 they would take into account what they learned in the last few years. If you look at the newer releases like the YF-30 or the VF-19ADVANCE you can already see that they are better designed as the YF-29. That is true for all good toy companies they learn from their mistakes. I believe MMC s Knight Morpher Commander was released around the same time (2010 I think) which is a great debut piece but not nearly as sturdy, good looking, quality feel and fun to handle as their Spartan.

To come to a close (finally). What you should take from that is if the base design is a blocky robot that transforms through magic into a block alt-mode than you can design a toy solid as a brick. If you have an aerodynamic Fighter-Mode that transforms into a lithe Battrdoid-Mode through a predetermined number of steps you have to make compromises. I also think that once you are familiar with the YF-29/VF-25 toys you can transform them in a breeze especially once you worked the joint for the neck-plate in. I also think they lock together solidly. Also keep in mind what you get for all the parts that don't work 100%. The toy transforms ins magnificently painted, highly posable and looks like it stepped right out of the show.

Now lets see what the other three people answered while I was writing this wall of text.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Scyla

[Sandman]

IMO bandai's plastic feels tougher more toy like than arcadia's.

[Gojira101]

Thanks everyone especially Scyla for that in depth answer (read the whole thing and you make some good points) I think I'll wait for my next two Bandai's too arrive and keep my eye out for a reissue of Arcadia's YF-19 if they do it based on a Twitter message they posted.

At this time I've thickened up a few friction tabs and it's feeling a little better and admiring the overall good looks of the VF-29. I'm really looking forward to watching all the Macross I missed out on that's for sure.

That VF-31 is looking really sweet as well but not sold on Delta as of my first viewing but willing to give it a shot when it premiers.

Also hoping the Arcadia does a YF-21 as it along with the VF-19 happen to be my favorites still.

Again thank you all for the feedback, stepping into a much larger world.

[no3Ljm]

Welcome to DX Yamato/Arcadia toy collecting! Hope you enjoy your stay.

Also not to be so preachy here but we also have Newbie FAQ Thread for questions like this. Feel free to post there anytime.

Happy collecting!

Edited January 9, 2016 by no3ljm

[seti88]

I will try to answer your questions. I also collect 3rd party Transformers and have several toys form the companies you mentioned.

First I would like to say that if you think they handle like a model kit I think you never touched one of the transformable VF-25 kits form Bandai. They are finicky as hell.

Second if you want to have a move solid experience I would recommend the V2 VF-1 from Arcadia/Yamato or the Macross 7 VF-19 toys from Yamato. They are solid but still more delicate than your average Transformers toy.

Third I will no continue with an overly long post of why I think that this is the case. Here we go...

Now one of the reasons why the DX Chogkin toys are the way they are is that they have to follow a given line-art (the one from the show). Since the transformations and proportions of the toy resemble a somewhat realistic scheme they can't take as much artistic freedom as the engineers of Transformers can. Basically everything is laid out for the engineers. In addition Shoji Kawamori (the designer of most of the Valkyries) is a fan of fighter-jets thus the Fighter-Mode of a Valkyrie reassemble a sleek aircraft shape as close as possible. Lastly Satelite (the production studio of Macross Frontier) created 3D models of the Frontier Valkyries and the designers have to recreate all the parts on the toys otherwise the collectors (read: I myself) wouldn't be satisfied with the result. See also the V1 VF-25 toys. You can watch Peaughs video reviews on them.

As a result the toys are not as solid and sturdy and easy to transform as say MMCs Spartan because the base design is a very lithe looking mecha. With Spartan MMC could design an engineer the joints and thick and sturdy as they wanted they could have a simple transformation with few moving parts they didn't need to include a feature where a part is attacked at one end of the toy and is reattached at the other end in a specific way, they didn't need to mold sharp bits and thin plastic pieces because it was their robot design an no one else. A freedom that the Bandai designers didn't have because the YF-29 toy needed to look like it did in the show and it needed to function like it did in the show.

So lets look at parts that are problematic on the YF-29 Durandal. First the joints. Since the base design has very little room for joints you need to design them as small as possible. This lead to some problems where the hip and shoulder joint aren't very stable because there is not much room in there. In the show the VF-25 Messiah is held together by magnets if I remember correctly so the designer didn't include room for them. Next I would like to focus on the thickness of the plastic. The plastic can't be too thick because the toy wouldn't look like in the show it would look too rounded. As an example take the spikes on the inside of the lower legs on the YF-29. They are small and easily bend if you are not careful but they need to be there for the looks. The same goes for other areas. Since the Valkyrie is so lithe several areas have thin plastic and thus handling the toy is more delicate than a very stylized Transformer. Now we come to the shield part. The shield has several functions to fulfill. First it needs to mount in a specific place but the area where it mounts needs to be thin because of the base design. Than it needs to house the dagger and have room for the hands. In addition the shield in the line art doesn't have any attachment point. Thus Bandai decided that the mounting point needs to be retractable. All these issues lead to a connection that is not as secure as it could be. Bandai refined the design with the VF-25 Renewal so the YF-29 is not in any way perfect.

Not lets get to the Yamato/Arcadia toys. They are not as delicate to handle as the Bandai toys because they have a vastly different design language because Kawamori designed them in the 80s/90s. Even the VF-0 that was originally modeled in 3D has this because canonically it is the predecessor of the VF-1. If you look at the Valkyries from Macross Plus or 7 especially they are far bulkier than the VF-25 family thus Yamato had more room to work with and the toys are more solid as a result. Since the designs of the Valkyries they released are based in drawings and Lego/balsa wood models they also have more artistic freedom for their designs. If you look at the VF-17 for example. While it is a good looking toy that is easily identifiable as the Nightmare there are some areas that don't follow the line art. The wing backpack is too large and too far away from the main body. The Battroid-Mode is not as chubby as the line-art, the gun-pod doesn't fit in the legs in one piece etc.

I don't want to imply that Bandais design is perfect and I believe that Arcadia could do a more solid job on the Messiahs (even if it costs $500 and has two applied markings in total). However they will still be more delicate to handle and more finicky to transform that your blocky Transformer. The base design is just not suitable for a sturdy toy that looks like the line-art. If you look at the Bandai releases for their Macross 7 toys that are mainly kids toys you can imagine what a YF-29 would look like if it was designed like a toy and not a collectible.

Finally I would like to discuss the state of 3rd party transformers. They also have some terrible finicky toys that are no fun to handle and parts falling off or breaking all over the place. If I compare the YF-29 with toys like the Xtransbots Apollyon or MMCs Cyclops I think the are easier to handle and don't break as fast. Especially Cyclops with his small tabs and outer shell pieces or Apollyon with the delicate silver pieces that end up on the inside of his lower legs without any place to go are prime examples where the base design is not up to par with the more solid 3rd party offerings. Or take the transformation of Maketoys Sonicdrill and FansProjects Diesel that have over the top transformations without real reason for it. Especially Sonicdrill could have a much simpler transformation for what he achieves. Don't get me wrong I like both toys because of their transformation but they really are a clusteruck. Or take MMCs Airborne Squad that have many small bits that are easily bend out of shape leaving nasty stress marks.

Also keep in mind that the YF-29 was released in 2011 which is now four years ago. I think if the would do a Re-Renewal VF-25 they would take into account what they learned in the last few years. If you look at the newer releases like the YF-30 or the VF-19ADVANCE you can already see that they are better designed as the YF-29. That is true for all good toy companies they learn from their mistakes. I believe MMC s Knight Morpher Commander was released around the same time (2010 I think) which is a great debut piece but not nearly as sturdy, good looking, quality feel and fun to handle as their Spartan.

To come to a close (finally). What you should take from that is if the base design is a blocky robot that transforms through magic into a block alt-mode than you can design a toy solid as a brick. If you have an aerodynamic Fighter-Mode that transforms into a lithe Battrdoid-Mode through a predetermined number of steps you have to make compromises. I also think that once you are familiar with the YF-29/VF-25 toys you can transform them in a breeze especially once you worked the joint for the neck-plate in. I also think they lock together solidly. Also keep in mind what you get for all the parts that don't work 100%. The toy transforms ins magnificently painted, highly posable and looks like it stepped right out of the show.

Now lets see what the other three people answered while I was writing this wall of text.

[Gojira101]

Welcome to DX Yamato/Arcadia toy collecting! Hope you enjoy your stay.

Also not to be so preachy here but we also have Newbie FAQ Thread for questions like this. Feel free to post there anytime.

Happy collecting!

Will do, last update I've messed with my YF-29 more and I've come to a personal realization. For me I love it but it's more of a posing display piece for me. Essentially that's what I'd be doing any way but it's still too finicky to mess with a lot.

Unless I'm missing something the wings/backpack doesn't seem to secure to anything. When I placed him on the stand in Batroid mode it changed everything for me. He seems more secure in it, specially his crotch as it seems the clasp on mine isn't very strong and kept wanting too pop out especially if I move the legs and they hit the canards. All in all I still like him but I'm pretty sure he'll never be free standing figure. Thanks for the help an expertise.

[jenius]

Do you have pictures? It sounds like maybe you didn't jut the crotch forward far enough, jutting the crotch forward should give you clearance from the canards though some aggressive stances would still pop the connection loose.

[Gojira101]

I'm fairly certain I pushed them as far as I could . Watched a transforming video on YouTube to be sure. I'd post pictures but doing this from my phone doesn't seem too allow that option. Am I right in the fact that the backpack doesn't secure into anything?

[Gojira101]

I'm fairly certain I pushed them as far as I could . Watched a transforming video on YouTube to be sure. I'd post pictures but doing this from my phone doesn't seem too allow that option. Am I right in the fact that the backpack doesn't secure into anything?

[jenius]

Yes, the back of the plane just folds over, no latching, in battroid mode. Here's a pic from my review of Isamu to show how far forward the crotch is:

When it's that far forward the canards shouldn't be too much of a hindrance.

[Gojira101]

Thank you and yeah I got the crotch right. Struggled with the head despite watching your video a few times but something went right. All in all I'm enjoying it more and more.