Think I've narrowed down my new airbrush choices

[David Hingtgen]

Yes, external mix. Nothing is as important to me than quick and easy to clean, and external mix beats everything else AFAIK. (Hey, I'm mainly used to hand-brushing and spray cans, even my $18 sprayer blows them away, a "real" airbrush could only be even better) I'll go to a double-action Iwata when I have to skill to justify it.

Unless someone knows a single-action internal mix that puts out a WAY smoother finish that is only SLIGHTLY harder to clean than an external mix, I plan to go with one of these.

So, any comments on either one, I do I just buy whichever one is most "supported" in my area? (Which looks like Badger). If it affects the suggestions:

I plan to spray acrylics through it. Mostly MM acryl, maybe some Tamiya, maybe Gunze (maybe a lot of Gunze, am going to try it soon).

I spray fairly 'wet and heavy' coats.

I have to spray outdoors, so a brush that's more "forgiving" of the weather would be nice.

90% of what I spray will be medium and light shades of grey onto 1/72 jets.

[Checkmate]

I recently bought a Iwata HP-CS. It's double action, gravity fed, and has .35 mm nozzle/needle which sprays from pencil thin lines to fairly broad strokes.

try visiting www.dixiart.com If you want to spray really broad strokes get an additional .5 mm needle/nozzle combo for $15 i think. And shipping is free!

[David Hingtgen]

But how easy is it to clean?

PS--I prefer siphon-feed.

PPS--I also model large ships, and don't free-hand camo. My line-width range would primarily be maybe 1/4in to 2 or 3 in.

[Checkmate]

Have you tried using a gravity fed a/b? IMHO it's really better than using a siphone fed. you can airbrush at any angle unlike a siphon fed. And every drop of paint is really used unlike the siphon fed which requires a lot of paint. I used to have a Badger Anthem 155 which was a siphone fed, doub action. It was easy to clean and sprays fine. But in the long run i was limited by the angle i should airbrush.

the .35 mm n/n HP-CS really sprays pretty good broad strokes. And really easy to clean. beacuase of the top paint cup it's easily cleaned by sparying thinner and wiping it with tissue paper. the usual rituals of removing the needle and soaking nozzles and caps still do apply.

Edited June 23, 2004 by Checkmate

[David Hingtgen]

Actually I've never tried gravity feed. I think a big part of the reason why is the whole "I have to spray outdoors" thing, and I basically need to mix paint/thinner, and bottles, and everything out on the deck. Having nice heavy flat-bottomed jars help a lot, as I can set things down, screw on lids, etc. I keep quite a few jars on hand to mix, etc.

Also, I often model big things. I have concerns about color cup size. I have been known to use multiple bottles of the same color in a single airbrush session. (As in, if I'm painting a whole ship's main color that day). I'd have to refill most color cups a LOT.

Heck, I've also looked at the Badger 250 sprayer-gun thing for some purposed. They say it goes down to 3/4 inch, that'd work for most of my airbrushing. Cheap too, worth it if for no other reason than "mass spraying" like 1/32 planes and large ships, when I literally need several square feet covered. And those things need like utterly no cleaning/disassembly. I've considered having one of them for most of my spraying, and using a nicer one only when absolutely necessary (like wheel wells and small bits, and canopies)

Edited June 23, 2004 by David Hingtgen

[David Hingtgen]

While we're here:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...8112813570&rd=1

Paasche H+compressor setup. The "TC 20" compressor is advertised as better/quieter than the el cheapo central pneumatic many places sell, but I'm wondering if that's still not all that good.

Might as well get off of air cans as soon as possible! Better airbrush demands better air.

PS--would it be stupid to buy a Badger 200 just because it's a neat shade of blue?

[VF-19]

Nope it wouldn't be stupid at all to buy a badger 200. I use one myself, and it lays down nice clean coats of paint. Cleanup is easy too, with everything coming apart and back together again with no problems. Then again, I thourougly clean my airbrush after each use, so I think I'm overdoing the cleanup part. On a very interesting side note, the Badger 200's paint jars are larger versions of the Tamiya paint jars (the 10 ml ones), so once you've used up the paint in the Tamiya bottle, you can convert it into a little paint jar. I tried it out myself and it works great. Heck, you can even, with a little bit of thinner, spray straight from the bottle.

[tetsujin]

Why the high premium on super-quick cleanup?

Personally, I'd really recommend going to a Paasche VL or some such. It is siphon-feed and comes with a big siphon bottle as well as a small siphon cup. Usually I'll spray different colors all from the one siphon-cup, spraying thinner in between each and only doing more thorough cleaning if the color change really requires it or at the end of the session. I guess external-mix would still be a quicker color change and cleanup, but I don't have much faith in the capabilities of such things.

[wm cheng]

Hey David,

I really recomend an internal mix - external mix brushes are just too coarse and provides no sense of control. I've been using my single action Badger 200 for over 18 years now (planning to upgrade to a double action when I develop the skills) but it has served me so well that I haven't had any need to replace it. I use this for everything, from spraying the primer to the fine post-shading weathering. Its really cheap and simple to completely disassemble for cleaning. Because its so simple, it pretty much runs anything through it - even thicker stuff that won't run through "artist" airbrushes like IWATAs. In all these years, the only maintenance is that I got a new IL Fine head and needle (I was rather rough with it in my high-shool years and sat on the original needle) and a new braided airhose (because I stripped the thread while attaching it to an aircompressor). Pretty good workhorse for 18+ years! Highly recommend it! I might start looking at a double action badger sometime in the next few years (maybe for its 20th anniversary )

PS. I also recommend siphon feed, since it can take a small color cup as well as larger bottles and you can airbrush in any odd angle to get into tight spaces.

[bsu legato]

Hey, that's my airbrush!

[VF-19]

It's mine too . I love it even more each time I use it. Pity it's a little inconvient, as I'm not allowed to airbrush in the house.

[David Hingtgen]

Badger 200 seems pretty highly recommended. wm cheng, yours is a 200NH, right?

PS---anyone hear about using an ultrasonic(jewelry) cleaner for airbrushes? Saw a post about it on ARC, and if it works, that'd be easy. Just so Iso. alcohol in the tank, toss the airbrush parts in, and hit the "on" switch. My mom's got one that she uses about once a decade, I'm sure she'd let me have it.

PPS--reason for easy clean-up is that my clean-up area is also the kitchen, combined with the fact that I have to paint outside. I can't start/stop airbrushing sessions so easily, I have to drag everything onto and off of the deck. No workbench etc right next to a spray booth or anything.

As well as the same argument as using acrylics---solvents/cleaners annoy me more each year, so the less time I have to smell cleaner, the better.

I've also been looking at compressors, from the oft-mentioned WalMart one (very popular on many jet modeling forums), to many online/ebay variations of the TC-20 like http://www.airbrushcity.com/abc181g.htm (from what I can find, the real maker of the TC-20 is Sparmax who also makes Iwata and Silair compressors) , and I'm also wondering about Iwata Sprintjets, etc.

BTW, how essential is a tank for a compressor set-up? Seems like a lot of compressors charge a LOT more for a tank attached, when it seems far cheaper to get a decent compressor and add your own tank.

[VF-19]

To be simple, a tank eliminates the potential pulsing of your airflow. Not to mention, a large enough tank will allow you to airbrush in the dead of night without waking anybody as there's enough air in it to do work.

PS, mine's a Badger 200 NH, but look at WM Cheng's work for a better example of how it performs, I'm not that good yet.

[Mallet21]

I'm really cheap so I bought just a 20lb air tank from Walmart, added a regulator and filter, then fill it up for free at the gas station. It easily gets me through at least 1 Hase VF model (15-20 psi) before I have to refill it.

[wm cheng]

Hey David,

Cleaning the airbrush isn't that big of a deal - you don't need an ultra-sonic cleaner. The key thing is do it right away, don't let it dry overnight or anything. You don't really need a sink either. Here's how I do it - I usually clean it right at my work bench. When I am finished with the colour, I always have a bottle of blue windex (only works for Tamiya Acrylics) sitting around, I dip my brushes into it when I am done with them - but I also use it to flush out the airbrush when I am done with the colour. I also have a dedicated crap brush (use an old fine brush - it will be wrecked, but it will be dedicated for this purpose) that is small enough to poke up into the siphon area of the airbrush and the color cup siphon tube.

When you are ready to clean, remove the color cup or bottle and open the needle up full and spray the remaining colour that's in the airbrush into the garbage to empty the airbrush of color.

Put the windex bottle (with siphon feed) up into the airbrush and spray full to get the entire airbrush filled with windex. Reduce the flow by adjusting the needle till its around 50% flow and continue to spray into a white paper towel, occassionally (with the windex spayed towel) block the nozzle so it back washes through the airbrush back into the color cup or bottle.

Remove the airbrush needle and look for any signs of dried paint (usually after the tapered tip but in the first 1/5 of the needle) around the trigger area. If there are any dried paint, dip that into the windex solution and wipe with paper towel - carefully avoiding the tapered sharp tip (do not touch this if possible). This needle is the only part of the airbrush I take apart on a regular basis to clean, everything else stays put.

Put the needle back in, and spray - check that the spray stains on the white paper towel is windex blue and contains no hint of colour. When you get practiced, this whole process should not take more than 2-3 minutes. Longer to type it.

I replace the blue windex bottle with fresh windex once every model or so - it can get quite gummy before the windex looses its power. Worst with metallics or darker colours than light. If I am using laquers or metalizers, than I repeat the same process but with the corresponding thinner or solvents instead of windex. Of course the original color cup or bottle needs to be cleaned too if you are planning to switch colour, so that's what I make my trip to the sink for. Hope this helps you reduce your trips to the sink. I'm not sure if mine is the 200NH, when I bought mine 18 years ago, they had no letter designations after the number, but it looks exactly like the one in the photo. Try and get the IL fine head and needle assembly if you can.

Oh, compressors - if you can afford it, get one with a tank. I was using a $12 re-built refrigerator compressor for 10 years before I got my SilAir. I can tell you that it wasn't worth it - it made me dislike airbrushing. It kept over heating. The smaller air compressors only allow you to work for brief stints of time before you have to let them cool down - plus the hotter air tends to be more moist. With all compressors you need a decent air regulator and I would suggest an oil & moisture tap. I can tell you that my SilAir is absolutely silent, even when it kicks in automatically to replenish the airtank - in fact I've left mine on for days forgetting to turn it off. I can only tell when once in a while, I hear a slight swish/pop, when the pressure relief valve goes off. Its absolutely worry-free and highly worth the investment. Make sure the tank ones you look at have auto-shut offs when its full, and it would be nice to have them auto-replenish as well. Just another worry taken off your hands to allow you to concentrate on the model.

Edited June 23, 2004 by wm cheng

[David Hingtgen]

Well if you only really need to remove the needle, and can just spray windex and/or thinner through it to clean the rest, that's plenty easy enough. Thanks for all the info!

Still need to decide on air supply. Don't want to go over $200, would like a "quiet enough" one w/tank for below that.

I'm really leaning towards a Badger 200 at this point, as so many people here have it I figure it'd be easy to get help.

PS--anyone here use/airbrush Gunze Aqueous? They're about the only other manufacturer of acrylics that makes the colors I need besides Testors, and Testors Acryl just cannot be used as a base coat. I've ordered a few bottles of Gunze (my main colors) to try out, see if I can use it, and see how it likes Tamiya as a base coat.

[Checkmate]

well i guess i can't persuade you anymore about getting an Iwata.

about the air supply:

try going to home depot. they have big compressors there with tanks that are around $135. it does'nt have an air regulator or water trap though. the regulator/trap combo i think ranges from $20 to $60. it depends on how it can handle the pressure coming from your comp.

[David Hingtgen]

Anyone have a Badger 200-20? Seems to be brand new.

http://www.dixieart.com/Badger_Model_200_S...ternal_Mix.html Bottom of page.

[tetsujin]

Well if you only really need to remove the needle, and can just spray windex and/or thinner through it to clean the rest, that's plenty easy enough. Thanks for all the info!

Still need to decide on air supply. Don't want to go over $200, would like a "quiet enough" one w/tank for below that.

I'm really leaning towards a Badger 200 at this point, as so many people here have it I figure it'd be easy to get help.

PS--anyone here use/airbrush Gunze Aqueous? They're about the only other manufacturer of acrylics that makes the colors I need besides Testors, and Testors Acryl just cannot be used as a base coat. I've ordered a few bottles of Gunze (my main colors) to try out, see if I can use it, and see how it likes Tamiya as a base coat.

I use Gunze acrylics sometimes. They seem very similar to Tamiya, actually - alcohol smell, general behavior, etc.

My air compressor is the "Wal Mart" variety, a Campbell Hausfeld with a small pressure tank built-in. It's not really a quiet compressor, but it's quiet enough that I don't think it disturbs my neighbors (I live in an apartment - I did my best to figure out how much noise it makes, and it seems from 1-2 rooms away the noise is minimal.) and the pump only runs when the tank needs to be refilled. $100. My particular compressor has some overheating problems, however - if the pump is run too frequently, it can overheat and shut itself down for a while. I don't know if this is such a problem on newer CH compressors - but generally if I'm running into that problem, it probably means I'm using too much pressure or working too fast anyway. Personally I think that general style of compressor is a great way to go, as long as you're OK with one minute of noise out of every 5-10 or so of work.

[Vince]

I've using a Iwata HP-C for the last couple of years along with a Badger 360. I was kinda afraid the HP-C would be overkill, I've since got to like it a lot. I feel the HP-C is easier to get good at than the 360. I only dislike that the HP-C don't paint to well for area wilder than 2 inches for me. But for painting planes and Gundam etc., it is perfect. If you're getting, be sure to the optional screw handle, it is really handu painting fine lines.

I use my 360 for things like base color, over coat, and such. It does paint line as thin as med ball point pen with arcylic paint, but it works best for covering larger areas.

The HP-C is a bit easier to clean IMO.

[Less than Super Ostrich]

I have the Badger 155 Anthem and am very pleased with it. I think the only difference between that and wmc's 200 is that it is double action. It takes a little while to get used to, but I'm having fun with it. I think mine is just as easy to clean... I use WMC's windex trick too!

Funny story... My brother in-law works for Campbell Hausfeld which makes compressors, so I got that for free. Now I hear that he has been appointed to a joint venture with Iwata. It looks like I may be getting a free airbrush!

[fernarias]

I also recommend the HP-C (or the Hi-Line if you can afford it). I think it's easier to clean then the Paasche H and the Badger 200 (I own both) and I exclusively use enamels and lacquers.

Wave markets an airbrush made by the same company as Iwata called the Super Airbrush Advance (next purchase). It is 12,160 yen at hobby search and features both an air adjustment valve and preset handle just like the HP-C Hi-Line.

If these are too expensive then either the Iwata Eclipse CS ($105.00) or the Iwata Revolution CR (59.99) would be fine. What ever you get, make sure it has a gravity feed cup (it makes it easier to clean).

F.

[Vince]

I think the only different between badger 150 and 360 is 150 is bottom feed, they are both very good. My picks will be badger 150, 360, or HP-C. It about $20 different at dixiearts. But I think you will be happier will the HP-C, it even make my work look descent.

[David Hingtgen]

Actually, price isn't really much of a consideration. I'm steering away from the high-end ones more based on complexity----I won't have the skill to use them effectively. I don't need something that can do 0.1mm lines until I have the skill to paint that. This'll be my birthday present to myself, so $100+ isn't a problem. I am still looking at Iwata HP-C's and such. Though I don't know if double-action would be the best way to start off my "finally getting a REAL airbrush" journey. One of my local shops has a Badger 200NH "on sale" for $70. Same shop also had an Iwata (Eclipse I think) and it just really struck me as high quality (the other shop keeps them in the box, can't look at them).

Edited June 26, 2004 by David Hingtgen

[tetsujin]

Consider this:

You can use most dual-action airbrushes exactly as you would use a single-action airbrush: generally they'll have a trim wheel or some such for locking the paint flow at a certain point, then you can just press the trigger to control air flow, as you would with a single-action airbrush.

You can grow into the features of a dual-action airbrush as you become more comfortable with them - or you can just learn dual-action from the start, and make it a part of your mental model of airbrushing from day one - and then learn to do it better, including fancy tricks like fine lines (which I can't do) when you're ready...

Or not. I mean, I don't want to be bossy or anything.

[bhop]

I own an Iwata HP-BS ($105 on dixieart) and it's by far the best airbrush i've ever used, easy to clean (just takes about 4-5 minutes for a thourough cleaning.) The quality of the brush is excellent and it's also extremely easy to use. Even my girl who had never touched an airbrush in her life got excellent results shading on a model. You really just can't go wrong with the Iwata.

Edited June 26, 2004 by bhop

[Vince]

Actually, price isn't really much of a consideration. I'm steering away from the high-end ones more based on complexity----I won't have the skill to use them effectively. I don't need something that can do 0.1mm lines until I have the skill to paint that. This'll be my birthday present to myself, so $100+ isn't a problem. I am still looking at Iwata HP-C's and such. Though I don't know if double-action would be the best way to start off my "finally getting a REAL airbrush" journey. One of my local shops has a Badger 200NH "on sale" for $70. Same shop also had an Iwata (Eclipse I think) and it just really struck me as high quality (the other shop keeps them in the box, can't look at them).

In that case, I highly recommend HP-C. Believe it or not, I thought I didn't have the skill to use it, but once started, it feels like writing with a pen when doing detail work. I use to use spray cans whenever I can, and I haven't use a spray can since I got the HP-C.

I use walmart non toxic paint brush clean to clean my airbrushes. I pull the pin back a bit, then soak the front end of the airbrush in the cleaner cover up to the cup between colors and spray clean with warm water, soak longer after the session. Work great so far for the Iwatas - I still use a old SA gunze which was made by Iwata every now and then. I have not need any new part for my Iwatas yet. However, I've already replaced the pin and the tip on the 360 once.

A dual action airbrush wil allow to do a lot more a lot longer.

Check out dixiearts.com before your buy, can't beat their prices anywhere. They are out of New Orlean, provide free UPS ground delivery for order $45 last I bought from them. Since I live in the deep south, it took less than 24 hours for the package to get here. Even you don't buy from them, they are still a very good reference.

[David Hingtgen]

The more I read the more confused/indecisive I get. Point to make:

Above all else, I really just want to paint an entire F-14 one single color (and many planes just 2 colors, top and bottom), and have the paint be smooth, guaranteed. No free-hand camo, no 1/16in lines. Just a nice even spray to cover the plane (or half a plane) smoothly and easily. With as little skill necessary as possible.

Recommendations based on that? I'd trade a bit of smoothness if there's a "fool-proof" airbrush for applying acrylics onto large areas...

Also--if for a given skill level a high-end brush will "almost certainly" (and without needing more skill just to get it to spray) deliver increased SMOOTHNESS of finish when spraying at max width, that's a plus. But if they only do fine lines better, that's utterly pointless for me.

PS--I did find the Campbell-Hausfield compressor at Wal-Mart today. Only $68. Wonder if it's the right one, most people report them more expensive than that. 100PSI max, 2 gallon tank, and regulator. Add water trap and it's ready to go. Maybe it's not the "quiet" one, though from what I hear "quiet" means like 90 decibels.

[Commander McBride]

I have an Iwata Eclipse Double Action Siphon Feed. Not sure of the exact model name. I think it's HP-BCS, or something like that.

Anyway, it's a really nice airbrush, but I get consistently horrible results with it. I think that's due to the fact that I'm horrible at airbrushing, though, not to any fault of the airbrush.

[Checkmate]

http://www.finescale.com/fsm/community/for...?TOPIC_ID=20519

check the above link. it might help you out. especially about the hp-cs .35 mm and .5 mm needle/nozzle combo.

[David Hingtgen]

Thanks much for the link. I've been pretty sure about a .5mm for a while now, if I go with an Iwata. And of course the Omni came up, as it always does.

Still considering maybe a Badger 200 with the widest nozzle possible for "general" stuff, and an Eclipse for anything less than 'entire plane' situations.

PS----am I correct in assuming that ANY internal-mix airbrush will be noticeably superior to something in the "sprayer" category like this (what I currently use, with canned air no less--still, very quick and simple, ultra-easy clean up:

[wm cheng]

Hey David,

There is no easy magical answers here, everyone will have their favourites (that's why they choose them in the first place). However, with airbrushing, a whole new set of variables are introduced that all must be toyed/experimented with to get the desired results (not to discourage you - but I believe it is a necessary step for all modellers to grow into). Unlike spray cans that have a fixed pressure (at least until you reach the end of the can ) fixed flow and spray pattern - all these are variable in both single action and double action brushes. Again, I would never recommend external mix brushes - they aren't much better than spray cans, and can get quite frustrating. The worst part of external mix is that they spray much coarser than internal mix ones - and depending on the air pressure, they can achieve quite pebbly/orange peel results especially with gloss paints. Very few airbrushes are going to provide a controlled swath/line much wider than 2" strips unless you hold the model so far away - but then the pressure from the brush reduces to a dribble and you shower your model with a wide mist of dried paint particles.

Don't worry, its pretty easy to spray even consistent coats with just about any internal mix airbrush once you've master how much paint flow and pressure is required. Just think of it as spraying back and forth in 25% overlapping 1-2" wide swaths (making sure you start before you hit the model and ending after you've gone past the model). Build up the colour in thin even layers, never try to do it all in one go. You will very quickly master this - and very soon you will want to control the airbrush into finer lines - this is the trap that will cost you more money and effort sooner than you think When you can control the line or spray finer, then you don't have to mask as much - saves a lot of time masking and money in masking tape. Once you get used to how smooth the airbrushed finish is, no hand painting will ever be satisfied in your eyes so you end up airbrushing everything - even the tiny stuff to get that smooth sheen (opps, am I revealing a bit to much obssessive compulsive behaviour on my part )

However, with this new found freedom, you need to experiment with a whole new set of variables:

1. How viscous to thin existing paints for the airbrush to spray consistently, the thinner it is, the smoother and better control without clogging (less likely to dry in your airbrush) your process will go, but more coats are required to achive opacity. Its different with white than darker colours - and its different between different types of paint such as acrylics than laquers.

2. How much paint flow to spray (double action requires pulling back on the trigger and single action requires the needle adjustment on the back of the airbrush) onto the model will affect how much paint dries on the surfaces. Too much and it will pool up, too little will result in a dusting that might rub off or create a rough surface. Also, this has a direction relationship to how wide your spray patterns become, the less the flow, the finer the line etc...

3. How much pressure is required to get the paint flowing inside the airbrush and onto the model. Again this differs depending on the paints used, Tamiya acrylics usually use 20-25psi, while laquer clear-coats 15-20psi and those Alcad metallizers 10-12psi also depending on humidity and temperature. I always have to experiment on a piece of scrap everytime I sit down to spray since conditions always change slight - so a really good regulator at the compressor end is essential.

Lastly noise is a factor, listen to your compressor in operation first. If you spray outside, you need to be considerate to your neighbours. The silent ones like SilAir are truely silent (not 90db) like you don't know when its on unless you touch it.

Good luck.

[Neova]

Master Cheng,

I was looking at compressors myself at dixieart and was looking at the silentair scorpion 1. Is this the one you had purchased? Is 20 PSI enough? At 139 it seems like a deal.

[ScrubbyMonkey]

Air source is a big point with me...does anybody know of a good, relatively quiet airsource that isn't too expensive. Other members of the family might not be too happy to hear a loud compressor going at 2am (when i do most of my work). I've thought about rigging a CO2 tank for airbrushing, has anybody tried this? Or does anybody have any more suggestions?

Edited June 28, 2004 by ScrubbyMonkey

[tetsujin]

PS--I did find the Campbell-Hausfield compressor at Wal-Mart today. Only $68. Wonder if it's the right one, most people report them more expensive than that. 100PSI max, 2 gallon tank, and regulator. Add water trap and it's ready to go. Maybe it's not the "quiet" one, though from what I hear "quiet" means like 90 decibels.

I think my CH said something about being "quiet" on the packaging - that's probably relative to compressors made for power tools and the like. Tough to say. Otherwise it sounds comparable to mine. Maybe ask the folks in Wal-Mart if you can turn it on in the store - that's what I did.