Black Valkyrie Posted April 7, 2004 Author Share Posted April 7, 2004 May be you guys would be happy if there was a new Gundam show called Kadoh Senshi Sponge Bob Metal pants ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stamen0083 Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 (edited) Personally, I think that even without Gundam, we would have eventually ended up one way or another with realistic military mecha anime shows, but it's pretty much a moot point though as we can't travel back in time to change things, so we'll never know Indeed, but this is how it happened, so don't knock Gundam :-P You got me about Okawara In my defense I guess that between the time he designed the RX-78 and the ATM-09 he might have actually studied up on military designs, which is why the ATs look much more realistic and practical, i.e. something that the military may actualy use in the near future as opposed to the much more unrealistic looking (IMO) MS. Whether we can believe it or not, Okawara designs are not based solely on his discretion. The designer actually has much to say in the design process. Did you know that the first iterations of the Gundam had it looking very much like a scaled up samurai? Did you know that the Gundam as Clover wanted would have been called Gunboy, featuring (fear this) the Guncannon as the lead machine? And no real robot in sight, I can tell you that. While Gundam could be so much better, it sure as hell can be a whole lot worse. [*]They are too damn big. An 18.5m tall robot is just a huge target if you ask me. At least starting from the UC120 era or there abouts, MS started to become slightly more reasonable in size, starting with IIRC, the F90 series. I won't argue with you here, since I believe the optimum size for piloted mech is about 8 meters tall, the size of a PatLabor. Of course, that makes the Valkyrie grossly oversized as well :-P [*]Most early mobile suits lacked any type of flight capability, meaning they had limited stategic mobility. Sure they could walk, run, skim in some cases (Doms) and do limited booster augmented jumps, but they lack the ability to quickly respond and travel from one area to another without having to rely on a seperate transport vehicle. Valks on the other hand are capable of supersonic or in some cases hypersonic speed alowing them to quickly travel from battle-site to battle-site, country to country etc. I don't think it's fair to compare Mobile SUITs to Valkyries. That's like comparing apples to oranges. Or fighter planes to tanks. Mobile SUITs are not long range interceptors. They're close in combat machines. The whole point of Mobile SUITs in the first place was due to the AMBAC system, which, subjected to anime physics, flailing arms and legs would maneuver the mech into position, saving propellant. While it wouldn't work in real life, it's still fun to pretend. I still think it's better than strapping rocket boosters to an F-14 and make it fight giant aliens. [*]IMO Gundam is just giant robots for the sake of giant robots. At least Macross has an excuse why giant robots are needed. And no amount of reasoning is going to convince me that an 18.5m tall humanoid robot is the ideal size and form for a combat mecha. Actually, see above. [*]Most MS carry an extremely limited weapon load considering their large size. For example, the RX-78 has a beam rifle which is good for only 20 shots and then has to be returned to base to be recharged, or optionally a giant bazooka with only 4-5 shots, head vulcans which are totally unrealistic (I'll explain below) and the beam sabers. Compare the 20 beam shots to what, 5 seconds of shots from the VF-1's gunpods? I think I'll take the 20 beam shots, each capable of bringing down a space cruiser, than 5 seconds of ballistic projectiles. As large as a Mobile SUIT is, most of the space is dedicated to propellant and mechanics. Unlike Macross, Gundam does not rely on a magnet driven engine. While it's true that Gundam had fusion reactors, it still needed to pump propellant around the reactors to produce thrust. No magic magnetic fields to push exhaust gases out the back pipe. No catch-all OverTechnology either. [*][Vulcan Cannons and Minovsky Particles. Post respectfully snipped to cut down on space] Usually, when I deal with Gundam, I don't care much for official stats. The 60mm number must clearly be wrong, as you have pointed out. However, as primitive a technology as Gundam seem to have (compared to Macross), I'm inclined to believe that projectile launching equipment must have shrank in size considerably from now until UC 0079, which would be set in roughly CE 2148, or something. Besides, the Gundam Vulcan cannon is tripple-barrelled, not six, which cuts the gun's size down to half, effectively. Note: The cannons on the RX-78NT1 Alex's forearms are called Gatling cannons, which is a misnomer, since Gatling is used to designate a six-barrelled gun. As far as the catch-all Minovsky particle is concerned, it makes enough sense to me. I don't think the particle was meant to trap IR signatures though. As I recalled, the only waves Minovsky particles can scramble are those with longer wavelengths, such as radio. Visible light and infra-red are unaffected. Why they don't use laser and IR track systems is beyond me. The Minovsky particles aren't directly responsible for the beam weapons. Minovksy particles are either positively or negatively charged, and said charge is distributed randomly. The charges forces the particles into a lattice structure, and when compressed enough, the Minovsky particles fuse into Megaparticles. Immediately after fusion, there is much energy stored within the particles, and when a certain threshold level is reached, the particles burst out of the compression field. That burst is the main theory behind beam rifles. Minovsky particles are only indirectly responsible for the beam sabers' deadliness. Those metal tubes project a Minovsky lattice structure to hold in super heated plasma, which is the material directly responsible for the cutting. In anycase, there is a method behind the madness of Gundam, and once you've come to accept the strange quirks and inconsistencies (which Macross has plenty of), it's rather fascinating. I'm in it for Katoki's mechanical design, and not much else. EDIT: Those who beg for more Kado Senshi stuff must die, for you are directly responsible for unleashing more hideous Okawara retro ugliness upon this world. While it's nice to have a hunk of metal in your hands, I find it quite a moot point when that hunk of metal is so ugly that it's offensive to my eyes. VIVA KATOKI! Edited April 7, 2004 by Stamen0083 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 To get back on topic sorta, I agree that I'd like to see more mecha toys with die-cast metal content from Bandai, but only for non-transforming mecha designs. I'm a firm believer in ABS for transforming toys and only having metal where it's absolutely necessary for durability, as you inevitably get paint chipping on die-cast transforming toys. Can't say I'm really interested in more Gundam toys, but I wish Bandai would concentrate on other neglected mecha shows. If Bandai or another company made toys of mecha from the following shows, i would buy them in an instant: - Gasaraki. Blue Gender. Dragonar. Bubble Gum Crisis. Metal Skin Panic. Graham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 VIVA KATOKI! I love Katoki's Victory and V2 MS designs and of course all his Gundam Sentinal designs, which are my all time favorite MS. However, I've never forgiven the man for the hidiousness (IMO) that is the Virtual On mecha Graham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Valkyrie Posted April 7, 2004 Author Share Posted April 7, 2004 EDIT: Those who beg for more Kado Senshi stuff must die, for you are directly responsible for unleashing more hideous Okawara retro ugliness upon this world. While it's nice to have a hunk of metal in your hands, I find it quite a moot point when that hunk of metal is so ugly that it's offensive to my eyes. Oh really , the beauty of a robot toy either super robot, Gundam, Macross or any other is the metal parts even if the paint comes off at least you can say battle damage, OK then what about SOC category ? may be in the you are just of those AU plastic lovers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stamen0083 Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 (edited) Oh really , the beauty of a robot toy either super robot, Gundam, Macross or any other is the metal parts even if the paint comes off at least you can say battle damage, OK then what about SOC category ?may be in the you are just of those AU plastic lovers. 1. I don't do toys. 2. I don't do ugly toys. 3. I don't do AU. 4. Re: SOC: See #1. Graham: Katoki has his share of good and bad designs. I don't blame you for disliking the Virtual On stuff. Edited April 7, 2004 by Stamen0083 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blaine23 Posted April 8, 2004 Share Posted April 8, 2004 I've said it before and I'll say it again. Metal toys and transformation make perfect sense. And Paint chipping is realistic! If a valk was real... don't you suppose there'd be paint chipping on it after a few thousand transformations? Folks on this board go goo-goo and ga-ga whenever some modeler-type airbrushes "realistic" shading, panel lines, and battle smudge, but everyone gets all prissy about paint chipping... I'd say the paint chipping is far more real than any of that foo-foo paint effects. Let a toy be a toy. At least metal doesn't have to worry about yellowing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Valkyrie Posted April 8, 2004 Author Share Posted April 8, 2004 I've said it before and I'll say it again.Metal toys and transformation make perfect sense. And Paint chipping is realistic! If a valk was real... don't you suppose there'd be paint chipping on it after a few thousand transformations? Folks on this board go goo-goo and ga-ga whenever some modeler-type airbrushes "realistic" shading, panel lines, and battle smudge, but everyone gets all prissy about paint chipping... I'd say the paint chipping is far more real than any of that foo-foo paint effects. Let a toy be a toy. At least metal doesn't have to worry about yellowing. Yup you said it man ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soze Posted April 8, 2004 Share Posted April 8, 2004 Give me more Metal Material Models!!! I love how heavy those things are. And yes... please make some Gasaraki toys! Although I do have the 3 Bandai models, but I have to work up the courage to start on them. Just have to learn how to paint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkullLeaderVF-X Posted April 8, 2004 Share Posted April 8, 2004 Anyway, there's a lot of things I don't find very realistic about mobile suits: - Mobile suits weren't developed to fight other mobile suits initially. Remember the Zakus were made because they served the role of nimble ship killers (like aircrafts) and were unopposed on the battlefield at the time because the Feds only have lame-o fighters and Balls for fleet defense. As with most technology, you start big until efficiency and new technology allows you size it down. The very computer you are using now would require more than a single room to fit merely decades ago. I wouldn't worry too much about trying to explain some future technology using what is known today. Imagine Ash trying to explain to those medieval guys the wonders of chemistry and his boomstick. I always fugured since it was the future, they were able to shrink the vulcan cannons and what not.I mean they where able to make a fricken huge robot,so mintureizing a vulacan cannon can't be that hard.Like you said with the computers...... And because I can't resist..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CF18 Posted April 8, 2004 Share Posted April 8, 2004 HCM Pro (High Complete Model Progressive) http://www.bandai-plamo.net/new_hobby/hcm_...cept/index.html 1:200, 1500 yen each, 1st batch release in June. At 1500yen, not too expensive but not MSIA cheap. Will have to look at the real thing first. Bandai promo photos tends to look a lot better than the real thing, the smaller the item the worst it gets. Now if they make GP-03 at this scale... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRAND CANNON Posted April 8, 2004 Share Posted April 8, 2004 Although I've streamlined my stuff down to some DXs and MG kits, I still have my original HCMs, I look forward to review on the actual product as they are compact and do not appear that they will hit the wallet too hard......we shall see....... Some site pics.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRAND CANNON Posted April 8, 2004 Share Posted April 8, 2004 and as if that wasn't enough..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CF18 Posted April 8, 2004 Share Posted April 8, 2004 http://www.gundam.channel.or.jp/event/2004/hobby.shtml Some assembling required. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VF-19 Posted April 8, 2004 Share Posted April 8, 2004 I wouldn't mind seeing how much smaller they are compaired to the regular MSiAs. Although I think they'd only be at most 1 cm shorter. Still, they look very very cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0 Posted April 8, 2004 Share Posted April 8, 2004 whao thse things are SMALL! Either way lets hope these are ABS and not that weak model styrene crap. u like the rpesentation and idea of these but the price...well i guess decent. HCM pro huh? HMMMMMMM damn you bandai fgive me HCM pro chunky monkeyu! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blaine23 Posted April 8, 2004 Share Posted April 8, 2004 Damn, I must admit they do look awesome. I'd buy them obsessively if they were around 12" tall. Can somebody Macronize this crap for me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRAND CANNON Posted April 8, 2004 Share Posted April 8, 2004 Nice pics and link CF!! Assembly is no biggee to me, I'm just glad the parts are pre-painted. I would assume they would be styrene, but who knows..... What are the odds on a nice enviro-nasty styro-foam tray.......oh, those were the days.... This is ALL I'M SAYIN'.............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel's Fury Posted April 8, 2004 Share Posted April 8, 2004 Do you suppose they're included with the toy? j/k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodcat Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 (edited) Die cast this die cast that. OOOHHH!!! ITS HEAVY!!! Diecast costs too much and never color matches the plastic by and large. Im so sick of hearing about how great diecast is. When its not. It sucks ass actually! But yay on new HCMs. However I don't wanna be woken for for it till they do Vifam 7 and any other cool 80s robots that aren't Gundam... As to giant robots? Well, Battletech wins on the realism front. Every mech is packed to the gills with weaponry, in some cases more than it could ever fire. Very few of them have any form of close combat weapon, because outside of city fighting there really isnt much need to give a multimillion dollar machine a weapon useable in 30 meters or less fighting when most fighting takes place at 300-1000. (Which is mostly a game design conceit. Realistically the Battletech weaponry range is 3 times that. But watching LRMs and Gauss rifles fire 60 hexes (inches, or 120 inches in proper scaled miniatures play) would be kind of complicated on players. The Battletech rules even give reasons why robots are used. They are highly mobile over multiple terrain types, capable of withstanding and surviving more damage than a tank, and capable of firing more weaponry at once. Also it only takes 1 pilot to command a mech while most tanks require 3-5 crewmen. Plus they are more salvagable than a tank. Lose a leg? The expensively trained pilot can escape. Lose a head? Mech still in good condition, it just needs a new head and possibly pilot. (Note tanks still outnumber mechs like 5 to 1 in the Battletech universe.) And their height means they have more visibility on the battlefield opposed to a ground based tank. Less need for spotter units and such. Or bridgelayers. They can go anywhere and do almost anything. They are big all terrain tanks with improved features that would apparently cost too much in a tank. Giant robots can be relatively realistic. Its just most anime and games don't make them so. Battletech comes closest, but at the expense of making "cool" looking robots. Most of em are butt ass ugly, just like modern war machines are. Most of Gundam has more in common with Super Robots than realistic robots. I find much of Gundam entertaining and I own my fair share of models and MSIAs, but its certainly not realistic. More realistic than Star Trek maybe, but generally less believable than Star Wars. Edited April 9, 2004 by Bloodcat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRAND CANNON Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 But yay on new HCMs. However I don't wanna be woken for for it till they do Vifam 7 and any other cool 80s robots that aren't Gundam... Good point........I hope they do carry over this line into non-Gundams. Of course most, if not all, here would first reference the 1/72 Valks, but the HCM Vifam and Neofam being brought back would be great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JELEINEN Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 Well, Battletech wins on the realism front. ROFLMAO!!!! Oh wait. You were making a joke, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blaine23 Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 Well, Battletech wins on the realism front. ROFLMAO!!!! Oh wait. You were making a joke, right? Yeah... lots of realism from a gaming system based on ripping off different anime designs. Whaddya expect from a guy who hates diecast. I guess everybody has their reasons for what they like or don't like. No one design or toy is gonna please everybody. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 I always fugured since it was the future, they were able to shrink the vulcan cannons and what not.I mean they where able to make a fricken huge robot,so mintureizing a vulacan cannon can't be that hard.Like you said with the computers...... Even taking into account using advanced technology lighter, stronger & thinner metals for the gun and using alternate ammo systems such as caseless ammo or liquid propellant instead of conventional shell cases, there is still a limit as to how much smaller you can make a gun which fires a 60mm shell. 60mm is 60mm no matter which way you look at it and the feed and breech mechanisms and barrels need to be sized accordingly. Not to mention that in order to assure that enough of the propellant powder is burnt within the barrel and to achieve a meaningful velocity, certain minimum barrel lengths are required. The Gundam's head Vulcans seem to have very short barrels, meaning low velocity. To quote from a passage from the Warbird Tech A-10 book by Dennis R. Jenkins: "It should be remembered that the overall size of a gun increases rapidly with greater calibre. The mass of each round rises with the cube of the calibre, and the loads on the breech, barrel and feed systems follow suit. Barrel length increases with the calibre and the velocity." Although I'm sure most of you have seen it before, here's the famous picture of the A-10's GAU-8 30mm gun shown dwarfing a VW Beetle, to give you an idea of it's size. BTW, fully loaded, the GAU-8 weighs about 3,900 pounds! Now just imagine how large a 60mm Vulcan would be. And by the way, going from 6 or 7 barrels down to 3 barrels doesn't reduce the size that much. Graham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Opus Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 I don't think a 60mm gatling would very feasable. It sounds like the kind of fantasy/sci-fi crap thought up by people who dont understand the physics of guns. 60 is twice as big as 30 so it must do twice as much damage. It would just be too big and heavy and total overkill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 I'll echo with what others have said in that I'd love to see this new HCM-PRO line include non-Gundam mecha. Personally, I can think of nothing more boring than yet another line of One Year War toys. Graham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolly Rogers Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 I'll echo with what others have said in that I'd love to see this new HCM-PRO line include non-Gundam mecha. Personally, I can think of nothing more boring than yet another line of One Year War toys. Graham Yes I can... another endless color/head variation on the VF-1s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Hingtgen Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 (edited) I love Katoki's Victory and V2 MS designs and of course all his Gundam Sentinal designs, which are my all time favorite MS.However, I've never forgiven the man for the hidiousness (IMO) that is the Virtual On mecha Graham Whaaaa?!? I've got more hot pink female Virtual On figures than valks! Or maybe I shouldn't say that so loudly. (I like female robots in general, and the Fei-Yen design especially) Yes, most VO designs are ugly, but a few rock. (mainly the ones that are overt parodies of anime characters) Edited April 9, 2004 by David Hingtgen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CF18 Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 HLJ got some cool coverage here, including big photos of MSIA vs HCM Pro: http://www.hlj.com/hcppro.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRAND CANNON Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 Another greta link .... and the comparison shots are good. Still would like to see an "actual product" review, though. And now this comment...... (from HLJ article) "At their presentation, they indicated that they've got the lineup in place "for the next ten years," " I'm taking this as: --After SEED, the MSiA line is kaput. (aside from exclusive variations) --HCM Pro will take over and create the same suits over and over again Though, once again, I'm hoping this means: --they will immortalize unfamiliar suits that have not been done in the MSiA line (doubtful) --they include other series mecha. Remember, rather than the MOBILE SUIT in ACTION moniker.....this is just plain ol' "HCM Progressive". Can't a man dream? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stamen0083 Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 Remember, rather than the MOBILE SUIT in ACTION moniker.....this is just plain ol' "HCM Progressive". That doesn't mean anything. There were Labor in Action and Dunbine in Action lines too, and guess what happened to them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRAND CANNON Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 True.....there was also SUPER ROBOT IN ACTION. What I'm saying is that the original HCM line was not ONE franchise specific, so I hope they continue this idea with the HCM Pro. Whereas the MSiA, LiA, DiA, and SRiA lines were specific, this new introduction isn't titled: "MOBILE SUIT HCM PROGRESSIVE" or "MS GUNDAM HCM Pro" or "BUY MORE OF THE SAME ROBOT .. ONLY DIFFERENT" or "HOW MANY DIFFERENT RX-78s CAN YOU FIT ON YOUR SHELVES YOU SILLY PEOPLE" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blaine23 Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 "HOW MANY DIFFERENT RX-78s CAN YOU FIT ON YOUR SHELVES YOU SILLY PEOPLE" Unfortunately, the RX-78 has never been made as a nice detailed 11-12" DX Gundam toy... which is the only kind I buy. I should probably thank god that line hasn't gone that big or I'd be broke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VF5SS Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 According to a friend, that number is 137. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Valkyrie Posted April 10, 2004 Author Share Posted April 10, 2004 Very nice figures especailly for the details but too small for my taste, I thought they were the same size as MSIA or like the HGUC 1/144. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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