In defence of Transformers.

[skunkobot]

Great start Mike, why don't you mispell defense in the title....

Was reading a thread a bit ago, and caught a bit of the Transformer hate. Just wanted to give a bit of input on the topic. I noticed that the other topic went bye-bye, I'm hoping this one wont, but I'll take no offense if it does. I just spent too much time typing this for the other thread not to post it. Oh, and if anyone has a casual interest in TFs and wants more info, feel free to ask me. Anyways, here's my reply to the other thread:

*sticks out tongue at Transformers haters*

Seriously though, I love Transformers, always have, always will. You want to know what one of the biggest differences between Transformers and Macross is? The number of unique designs. As toy technology has furthered, and the bounds of engineering have been expanded TFs have expanded on the designs, and are generally always trying something new. In the few instances of revisiting an old transformation scheme it tends to be an improvement.

Macross has far fewer designs. The VF-1 has been perfected by Yamato I'd say, but how many have come before? The same robot, the same transformation style, being tweaked over and over again. I love the design, except for the head of the 1A. I don't mind functional heads, I just don't like the aesthetics of it. But in the end, it's been somewhat done to death.

Obviously there are other designs in the Macross universe, but how many of them have the legs forming the thrusters?

The other big difference is that Transformers are toys first. If there's a difference between the toy and the show, then the show isn't toy accurate, not vice versa.

Lastly there's the price difference. An Alternator costs $20. A Binaltech costs about $40, you get diecast for the extra money. A 1:48 costs over $100. MP Convoy cost under $100 and when compared to a 1:48 had a lot of toy packed in, without sacrificing looks. He is about as show accurate as you can get, considering the fluctuation present in the old G1 show. For the money you spend on a toy that's mass prouduced, and has to factor in child safety, I'd say it's pretty impressive.

Mind you I'm not defending the failings of a line. I love Alternators, Tracks is one of the coolest toys I've seen in a while, and I can't wait for him. Bulkhead (first five pics - prototype) is pretty damn sweet too, and he's from the mainline.

So yeah, you don't have to like Transformers, but in the end, to paraquote Rocky Horror Picture Show:

"[They] didn't make them for you."

Edited February 27, 2004 by skunkobot

[Skull 0ne]

skunkobot, AMEN

yes, my post went bye-bye

[Cyclone]

True enough, then why are TF fans shocked and get almost angry when people express dislike of Transformers.

You reep what you sow.

Cyc

[NSJ23]

True enough, then why are TF fans shocked and get almost angry when people express dislike of Transformers.

You reep what you sow.

Cyc

It does not bug me that others hate TF's, but the term Tranny is just Wrong!

[skunkobot]

I'm not angry, although I was admitedly shocked by a few of the comments made, and by who made them.

But really, I just wanted to point out that the lines are vastly different, and that although everyone is entitled to their opinion, some of the reasoning isn't logical. One's allowed to like apple over oranges, but they should realize that they are in fact quite different.

I'd like to see Transformer love spread, but I'm not here to preach unecessarily. I'll keep this thread up as long as it's civil and fun, though.

I just want people who normally collect high-end collectors items to realize that Tranformers are a great quick, cheap fix. And many of them can hold their own against some of the significantly more expensive guys. Like I said, ask me which and I'll steer you the right way.

[Skull 0ne]

I'm not mad(or almost mad) about what said about about the TF's ( every one has the right to say they hate somthing) it's just what was said about TF's Fans sanity.

[Nightbat]

Seriously though, I love Transformers, always have, always will. You want to know what one of the biggest differences between Transformers and Macross is? The number of unique designs. As toy technology has furthered, and the bounds of engineering have been expanded TFs have expanded on the designs, and are generally always trying something new. In the few instances of revisiting an old transformation scheme it tends to be an improvement.

Macross has far fewer designs. The VF-1 has been perfected by Yamato I'd say, but how many have come before? The same robot, the same transformation style, being tweaked over and over again. I love the design, except for the head of the 1A. I don't mind functional heads, I just don't like the aesthetics of it. But in the end, it's been somewhat done to death.

Obviously there are other designs in the Macross universe, but how many of them have the legs forming the thrusters?

Yes, but TF was a bunch of thrown together designs, they weren't created as 1 series, it's very easy to use others' designs in a story you created yourself, saves you alot of creative thinking

if it works you'll have a budget to come up with new ideas, and buy up even more designs

and how many Optimus primes have been released before we got the MP Prime?

The other big difference is that Transformers are toys first.  If there's a difference between the toy and the show, then the show isn't toy accurate, not vice versa

And this is the trouble I had as a kid with butt-ugly toys, I saw a cartoon with sleek humanoid designs, my Jazz was an unposable brick that couldnt even be placed in a running stance (*driving in a straight line was already a problem)

it was still the show that created the "Personalities" and made you want to have your favorite TF as a toy

A Bandai 1/55 isn't a beauty, but as far as aestethics wins hands down on many larger transformers (I thought "Jetfire" was the coolest TF I ever saw - This was before I got to see RT)

Lastly there's the price difference.  An Alternator costs $20.  A Binaltech costs about $40, you get diecast for the extra money.  A 1:48 costs over $100.  MP Convoy cost under $100 and when compared to a 1:48 had a lot of toy packed in, without sacrificing looks.  He is about as show accurate as you can get, considering the fluctuation present in the old G1 show.  For the money you spend on a toy that's mass prouduced, and has to factor in child safety, I'd say it's pretty impressive.

Maybe, but there is a much larger market for TF than Macross, it's big in Japan, Europe and the US

while macross is well known, it's no way as big

OH I don't hate TF, I have fond memories of the series and toys

but it isn't Macross

[skunkobot]

I'm including all the newer series as well, only early G1 was a bunch of slapped together toys from different lines.

And to answer your Prime question, 2. The original, and then the Powermaster version, which wasn't really trying to be quite the same, or more show accurate. The others were either the same character, or a different character with the same name, whose robot and vehicle modes weren't trying to be accurate to G1 Prime.

Once again, as to your comment about Jazz, all I can say is that it's an unfortunate side effect of the toys coming first. Doesn't mean I like it though.

[Sebastian]

Yep the thread went bye bye.

Good for us!!! LOL!

Nah! Please guys dont get too serious about the this, some people dont like TF, that is all. What do you guys care anyways?

I love macross my wife hafe my silly toys... I dont care.

About the comment made about TF collectors, I think it wasnt ment to hurt anybodys feelings.

And by the way... bulkhead is SO GREEN!

But looks real nice I must admit.

[Greyryder]

I have a love/hate relationship with the Transformers. I loved the originals, because most of the vehicle modes were fairly acurate. They looked like toy cars. (or whatever a given TF turned into) A lot of the original bot modes weren't bad either, they just lacked articulation. Admittedly, the Decep jets didn't look too good from underneath, and a number of the robots had stubby arms.

After a few years though, they started to go downhill. They got big hinges sticking out of the vehicles, and pretty much gave away that it was something other than a toy car/plane/whatever. The sudden proliferation of scifi vehicles didn't help, either. During all of this, the bot modes didn't improve. They still had very limited motion, and questionable proportions were still just as common.

It seemed like every succsive line of TFs since the first gens have gotten progressively worse. At the very least, the bots modes seem to have gotten a bit better. They have better proportions, and much more articulation, now. I still don't like the way they look.

I love the Alternators/Binal tech. They're the best of both worlds. Vehicles modes that look good enough to display, and well proportioned, well articulated robot modes. The choice between the Takara and Hasbro versions is just a nice extra.

I will say that I'm a little dissapointed in the 20th any Prime/Masterpiece Convoy. In every picture I've seen, the vehicle mode looks a mess. Not any better than the first edition Power Master Prime above my monitor.

[skunkobot]

It's just discussion. Like I said, it's about being civil, and fun. Intelligence optional, but nice.

[Agent ONE]

TF will always have a special place in my heart. I loved when I was 5 but I grew out of it. Now I just see a story that is jumbled and has unreal fuct continunity with a ton of ugly designs that totally distort themselves in the animation and look like junk as toys.

I think TF fans are perpetually screwed because of this poorly hanging together story, which only allows the marketing muscle behind it to aim at younger dumber kids, hence making lamer and lamer toys for younger and younger kids.

I like TF but I think its ruined forever at this point in respect to its future.

[skunkobot]

Agrees with Agent One.

*cries a bit*

It's sad. I was good until after BM. RiD was great as a humorous one shot, but then they reset. Dreamwave tried to save the story, but unfortunately I think the comics suck. My last hope lies with the movie. It's strange how used to multiple universes I've gotten. I guess it's like FF, except without the epicness.

[eriku]

I don't mind people criticising something I like or even bashing it, but when they make offensive personal comments I think it's really tasteless and juvenile, and it shows an overall lack of tact. Considering who made the comments in the thread that was deleted I think it's extra shameful. It's certainly no way for someone in that position to behave. Actually this whole situation reminds me of something that might be seen at Robotech.com, especially with the thread in question magically disappearing. How long before some members here start getting banned?

Bash the show/movie/book/toy all you want, but don't belittle the fans. There are plenty of people out there who think Macross is a pile of garbage. If they stumble across threads like the one that was deleted, they'd only have their perogative reinforced.

Edited February 27, 2004 by eriku

[91WhiskeyM6]

The best looking Transformer toy?

Predaking and Omega Supreme !

[91WhiskeyM6]

TF will always have a special place in my heart. I loved when I was 5 but I grew out of it. Now I just see a story that is jumbled and has unreal fuct continunity with a ton of ugly designs that totally distort themselves in the animation and look like junk as toys.

I think TF fans are perpetually screwed because of this poorly hanging together story, which only allows the marketing muscle behind it to aim at younger dumber kids, hence making lamer and lamer toys for younger and younger kids.

I like TF but I think its ruined forever at this point in respect to its future.

Do you feel this way about Beast Wars?

I thought Beast Wars(I haven't seen Victory yet)was the best Transformer series ever. I grew up with TF ever since I laid my first eye on the toys @ Walmart back in 83' and then the cartoon came out in late 84/85.

[F-ZeroOne]

I don't have anything really against Transformers; however having grown up with the original toys I have a bit of trouble with the latest designs. It always seemed to me the point of Transformers was that they resembled something real-world, and that the current lines have moved rather far away from that original idea. For want of a better word, I think they lack the elegance of the original line.

They were always exceptions, of course - the Dinobots, Galvatron, Cyclonus... but even the more sci-fi designs seemed to have been designed with a degree of fuctionality. The latest designs are loaded down with all sorts of cool gimmicks (I'm amazed at what you can do with electronics ina toy these days), but I find the designs - and the colours - rather messy. However, the line is (and of course, always was) aimed at children, who probably like having lots of bits and bright colours (I seem to remember reading that children have greater colour perception which we gradually lose as we grow up).

The new BinalTech/Alternators line and the Masterpiece OP do seem to be a good step in acknowledging Transformers more mature fan base though.

And I wouldn't be too hard on the VF-1. After all, more than one Transformers fan discovered Macross through a certain red and white Autobot air guardian...

Edited February 27, 2004 by F-ZeroOne

[DARTHTODD]

I agree with skunkobot. TF's are something different and that's what I love about them. I also like the fact that they're somewhat clunky/boxy looking, it's a nice contrast to Macross designs which are obviously sleeker. I think another appeal about TF's (depending on the series of course) is that they change into "real" things: cars, trucks, etc. A kid can see a jeep on the road and his imagination will go wild thinking about it transforming. Sure Macross stuff is similar to real-life designs but it's a little different. I love both TF's and Macross. Anyway, there's my 2 cents.

[Agent ONE]

TF will always have a special place in my heart.  I loved when I was 5 but I grew out of it.  Now I just see a story that is jumbled and has unreal fuct continunity with a ton of ugly designs that totally distort themselves in the animation and look like junk as toys.

I think TF fans are perpetually screwed because of this poorly hanging together story, which only allows the marketing muscle behind it to aim at younger dumber kids, hence making lamer and lamer toys for younger and younger kids.

I like TF but I think its ruined forever at this point in respect to its future.

Do you feel this way about Beast Wars?

I thought Beast Wars(I haven't seen Victory yet)was the best Transformer series ever. I grew up with TF ever since I laid my first eye on the toys @ Walmart back in 83' and then the cartoon came out in late 84/85.

Beast Wars was targeted at really young kids so it was incredibly difficult for me to get into. On top of that the continuity was totally messed up at that point and I just didn't care anymore.

I think after Prime was resurected to combat that disease and the Matrix was destroyed in the series after the movie it all went downhill.

[Nightbat]

I think after Prime was resurected to combat that disease and the Matrix was destroyed in the series after the movie it all went downhill.

The return of Prime saved (what I call: Generation 2) Transformers

for me it all ended after the Movie

I loved the "real life/our time" vehicles, that whole future setting with the Rodimus/Galvatron-Dynasty took the real aspect away

Not saying it all sucked, but as example the Quintessons dragged on too long and they weren't even Transformers

how can they be an enemy on equal grounds?

[Agent ONE]

I think after Prime was resurected to combat that disease and the Matrix was destroyed in the series after the movie it all went downhill.

The return of Prime saved (what I call: Generation 2) Transformers

for me it all ended after the Movie

I loved the "real life/our time" vehicles, that whole future setting with the Rodimus/Galvatron-Dynasty took the real aspect away

Not saying it all sucked, but as example the Quintessons dragged on too long and they weren't even Transformers

how can they be an enemy on equal grounds?

I agree with the Quintason thing... another open sore on the croch of TF.

[Blaine23]

Don't you realize this board is run by "The Anti-Tranny"?

Seriously, there are alot of TF fans here and there are some people who dislike the toys/series immensely... but I think the majority of us appreciate the nostalgic love of the original toys and reissues. The reissues and Binaltech/Masterpiece toys are a good sign that TF is acknowledging the older fans. To be honest, I haven't given a rat's ass about any of the shows (other than the originals on DVD) or new toy lines in a long time. I'll let the kiddies play with that.

I don't see much need in "defending" TF... it is what it is... some folks will like it, others won't.

Saw this on the Onion and thought I'd post... at least one Tranny is OUT and PROUD!

Transformer Refuses To Change Back

Into Volkswagen

CYBERTRON—Following an intense battle with Megatron and his evil Decepticons Monday, former robot-in-disguise Bumblebee refused to revert to his natural state as a yellow Volkswagen Beetle. "I hid my existence in this world by taking the form of a vehicle! I revealed my true nature when I was called upon to protect earth!" said Bumblebee, a member of Optimus Prime's heroic Autobots force. "I refuse to change back into a humiliating bubble-shaped compact car!" Bumblebee added that Megatron arrived on earth with one goal: Destruction!

[MSW]

Transformers as toys were always sorta okay for me, somewhat cheap, sometimes featured neat transformation scheme design elements...I only pick up the ones that I think look decent and/or have a potentialy interesting transformation.... I never cared about the show, and only got into the toys inorder to study how they worked, how the individual parts and pieces work together, the engineering involved in makeing something transform into a robot ... I also picked up Jetfire, Roadbuster, Whirl, and many of the delux insecticons just because I knew full well what they really were (obviously Macross, Dorvack, and Beetra)

As for the more current designs...sci-fi vehicals and such are fine by me, I don't care if it's a futureistic car or a real world car as long as it looks cool...what I don't like about the designs (and this especialy includes bits of generation 1) is that they don't seem "complete"... By this I mean that something like the VF-1 was more fully developed in that it was better thought out and could be viewed from every angle...tail fin assembly becomes a backpack, etc...while many of the Transformers are designed to look like bots from the front, but from the back look like crap...also transformers tend to look far to "buisy" covered with panel lines and senseless mechanical bits (the whole "guts on the outside" greebies, kibble, etc)

My favorite Transformer designs (besides those related to Macross, Dorvack, and Beetras line of toys) were Soundwave and the casettes, and for some strange reason Powermaster Prime (Ginrai) ... altho the Powermaster toy leaves a whole LOT to be desired

Otherwise I find the Transformers spin off Brave series more interesting, with better toy designs, better stories, etc...

[Bloodcat]

Ive been a Transformers fan for 20 years now.

Its the one line of stuff I have collected more than anything else outside of electronic games.

Im all about the Transformers!

[Mr March]

I don't hate Transformers, but I'm not a fan. Years ago when I was a kid I liked the comic books (never the show) and I collected the toys. The comic books had some great dramatic moments and I liked the general progression of the Autobot/Decepticon wars. It was fun stuff at the time.

The cartoons were just plain irritating. Endlessly recycled plots featuring endless battles that never went anywhere.

As for the designs, I never really felt many of them were all that thrilling. Comparing them to something like Macross, I don't think I've seen any transformer designs that come close to being a great work like the Valkyrie. Thing about the VF-1 is it's aesthetic completeness and symmetry. Like the classic science fiction designs such as the X-Wing, the Star Destroyer, the Enterprise, the Starfury, the Gundam, et cetera, the Valkyrie acheives a measure noteriety due to the succesful merging of so many elements into a timeless design. Most of the transformers are built around the necessity for transformation and lack the fluid design of something like the VF-1, which looks beautiful in all modes.

I will say however that those new Transformer comics that have been out the last few years are incredible visually. Not the designs mind you, but the artwork is brilliant. One of the best innovations in drawn/computer graphic artwork I've seen in a comic for many years. Kudos to the artists.

[91WhiskeyM6]

Beast Wars was targeted at really young kids so it was incredibly difficult for me to get into. On top of that the continuity was totally messed up at that point and I just didn't care anymore.

I think after Prime was resurected to combat that disease and the Matrix was destroyed in the series after the movie it all went downhill.

True, but I think they also targeted the older G1 fans because of the tie in with the orginal series. Kinda like what Akira Toriyama did with Dragonball.

I thought Beast Wars had a maturity theme to it. The story lines were fluid, comedic, and engrossing. It's the only CGI I could tolerate.

One of my favorite scenes was when Rattrap was playing a "Street Fighter" type game with Prime and Megatron duking it out

Armada and RiD? crap!

[Golden Arms]

Pat Lee is the artist that draws the current TF comics. I agree with you Mr. M his atworks is awesome. Someone outta let him submit a few ideas for the binaltechline. I'd like to see what he could come up with.

[Kanedas Bike]

I thought Beast Wars had a maturity theme to it. The story lines were fluid, comedic, and engrossing. It's the only CGI I could tolerate.

Armada and RiD? crap!

Couldn't agree more with Whiskey on this one.

Grew up with G1 which peaked with Transformers: The Move.

And Beast Wars for what is was worth (especially the later episodes) where damn good.

At one time (or maybe even currently) Transfomers was the best selling toy line of all time? I could be mistaken but I remember something to that effect a few years back.

-b.

[Mr March]

Pat Lee is the artist that draws the current TF comics. I agree with you Mr. M his atworks is awesome. Someone outta let him submit a few ideas for the binaltechline. I'd like to see what he could come up with.

I recal his work on Warlands. I read a bit of the series, mostly loaners from my friend who collected the series until it ran into trouble. The artwork was a nice blend of traditional japanese manga with detailing, layouts, and computer coloring of western comics. Very impressive.

His work on Transformers really gives life to the franchise in my opinion. I'll often just read through a few issues on the stands simply to slobber over the great looking artwork. Pat Lee manages to evoke a lot of drama from robotic characters just with his style. I was blown away the first time I saw the books.