Andor (Star Wars: Andor) - Disney+

[F-ZeroOne]

I suppose an argument could be made that there have been a number of real world examples where security services have been caught with their, er, Stormtrooper armour down.

[Big s]

44 minutes ago, F-ZeroOne said:

I suppose an argument could be made that there have been a number of real world examples where security services have been caught with their, er, Stormtrooper armour down.

Yeah, but that’s usually been with no previous warnings or under riot situations 

[electric indigo]

Nice arc. I wonder who will be the final target.

 

[Seto Kaiba]

20 hours ago, Big s said:

It wouldn’t be that hard. It’s a senate building and would already have had plenty of security and it wasn’t a riot situation, so a lockdown would have been very easy. It took them forever getting from that first door to the car, they should have been ready after reporting a security personnel murder

Eh... clearly it is that hard.  Not just because we clearly see Imperial stormtroopers fail to lock down the building and catch the escaping Mon Mothma in Andor, but because this is not even close to the worst security failure we see happen on the Senate's premises.

In The Clone Wars, a group of bounty hunters led by Cad Bane were able to break into the Senate offices and take a group of ten senators (incl. Padma Amidala and Bail Organa) hostage and would have killed all ten with a bomb to cover their escape if not for Jedi intervention.  Several senators were also murdered in their own offices during that same period.  The Supreme Chancellor's office was also broken into three times in quick succession around the events of Revenge of the Sith.  Once by General Grievous to abduct the chancellor, once by Mace Windu and three other Jedi to assassinate Palpatine, and once by Yoda to assassinate Palpatine.

That's just the short list that I can remember offhand.  There are more.

 

Like Cassian noted way back in season one, the Empire's biggest problem is overconfidence.  Cassian was able to rob the Imperial naval yard at Steergard with a pure Bavarian fire drill.  Just put on a uniform and acted like had every right to be there, and nobody even questioned it.  He does the same in "Welcome to the Rebellion". 

Spoiler

Cassian is able to walk right in through the Senate's service/press desk with forged credentials because he's able to pass off not being in the system as a bureaucratic snafu, and then goes where he pleases totally unchallenged by any kind of security.

Likewise, Bail Organa is able to manipulate Senate rules to grant Mon Mothma the floor for her speech and nobody in the ISB was ready to stop her because they were totally convinced that the day's agenda was set in stone and she would have no opportunity to speak.  Security wasn't on alert, because the ISB was convinced there was no chance of trouble that day.  So when sh*t did go off, their ability to cut off the broadcast was compromised by literal-minded adherance to orders (impl. to be malicious compliance on the part of facilities staff) and the one person in a position to stop Mon Mothma from escaping was immediately shot dead after being accused of being a rebel spy.

With the ISB's eyes on the ground dead and the room's unarmed security guard in no position to call it in accurately (if at all), Cassian was able to walk Mon Mothma right out of the building while the panicking ISB struggled to get to grips with the situation and deploy security forces they'd been convinced up to that moment weren't needed.

Even her ISB agent driver was a bit of overconfidence.  They never thought to properly secure her car because, hey hey, she's a pacifist.  The most she's going to do herself in the presence of an armed ISB agent is huff and puff and clutch her pearls indignantly.  She'd never willingly travel under armed guard.  So Cassian rolling up pretending to be ISB and then blowing him away was a complete surprise.

 

[Seto Kaiba]

18 minutes ago, electric indigo said:

Nice arc. I wonder who will be the final target.

Kathleen Kennedy really does need to fly that AC130 out to Tony Gilroy's house and beg him to replace Dave Filoni.

The difference is so huge it crosses the line twice and is actually pretty funny.

[Big s]

23 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

That's just the short list that I can remember offhand.  There are more.

And that would be the perfect reason to upgrade security. If they don’t have security at each entrance, then that’s just poor writing all around.

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, Big s said:

And that would be the perfect reason to upgrade security. If they don’t have security at each entrance, then that’s just poor writing all around.

They do have security at the entrances.  We see it in the episode.  They have rows of some kind of metal detector equivalent and security personnel checking IDs at the building's entrances.

What they don't have is loads of armed guards on the grounds.  Why would they?  Like Cassian noted back in season one, the Empire is so arrogant and so self-satisfied that they never even consider possibilities like this.  The Empire's whole schtick is presenting a picture of stability and safety.  That the new government has everything under control.

Quote

Cassian: They're so proud of themselves, they don't even care. They're so fat and satisfied, they can't imagine it.
Luthen: Can't imagine what?
Cassian: That someone like me would ever get inside their house. Walk their floors, spit in their food, take their gear.

The Senate we see in Andor is the very picture of a government building in peacetime.  They have security at the doors and at key points to keep the public out of areas that they're not meant to access, but it's all kept deliberately low key to project a sense of confidence and control.  If the halls of the Imperial capital aren't a supremely safe place, the Empire's public image as a "safe and secure society" is at risk.  Putting a huge number of soldiers in or around the building at all times to lock it down on a moment's notice would be a very visible contradiction in the Empire's messaging to the galaxy.  Proactively preventing threats to maintain that air of control is the ISB's job, but as we saw they're as overconfident as any other Imperial bureau and dropped the ball.

[sh9000]

https://www.kcrw.com/sponsored/kcrw-partner-screening-andor-season-2-episodes-8-9

There's a screening of episode 8 and 9 on the Disney lot today.  If I had known about it earlier I would have tried to RSVP.  Pretty cool to watch some episodes on the big screen.

[Big s]

3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The Senate we see in Andor is the very picture of a government building in peacetime.

Even a senate in peacetime is guarded. And it really didn’t seem like peacetime with all the rebel threats going around. 

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, Big s said:

Even a senate in peacetime is guarded.

Indeed, but not by a large enough force to conclusively lock down every single potential entrance and exit as we've seen in real world examples.

 

1 hour ago, Big s said:

And it really didn’t seem like peacetime with all the rebel threats going around. 

As far as the Empire is concerned, it's peacetime.

At this point in Star Wars history, the Rebel Alliance doesn't exist yet.  The Empire has yet to encounter a Rebel movement that's large and well-organized enough to present a real military threat to its control of the galaxy.  Up until now, they've only really encountered independent rebel cells of squad or at best platoon size that carry out nuisance attacks on lightly defended Imperial ships and bases.  The game changes when Mon Mothma declares the founding of the Rebel Alliance after reaching Dantooine, but even then the Empire doesn't truly start taking the Rebellion seriously as a threat until the destruction of the first Death Star.

[Big s]

37 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Indeed, but not by a large enough force to conclusively lock down every single potential entrance and exit as we've seen in real world examples.

Maybe by underdeveloped countries, but I can’t think of a first world example 

[F-ZeroOne]

20 hours ago, Big s said:

Yeah, but that’s usually been with no previous warnings or under riot situations 

I can think of a few incidents where there were warnings or at least investigations afterwards revealed that there were at least hints of possible future trouble that were overlooked or not considered serious enough to investigate, but I think its going to be difficult to provide examples without violating commenting policy. And they were also not expecting Mothma to speak; Organa out rules-lawyered them at the last moment. Her speech was also fairly short once she laid out her background, which may be why they didn't shut it down in time. At the end of the day, though, sometimes drama just gotta drama. 😄

[pengbuzz]

 

13 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Indeed, but not by a large enough force to conclusively lock down every single potential entrance and exit as we've seen in real world examples.

 

As far as the Empire is concerned, it's peacetime.

At this point in Star Wars history, the Rebel Alliance doesn't exist yet.  The Empire has yet to encounter a Rebel movement that's large and well-organized enough to present a real military threat to its control of the galaxy.  Up until now, they've only really encountered independent rebel cells of squad or at best platoon size that carry out nuisance attacks on lightly defended Imperial ships and bases.  The game changes when Mon Mothma declares the founding of the Rebel Alliance after reaching Dantooine, but even then the Empire doesn't truly start taking the Rebellion seriously as a threat until the destruction of the first Death Star.

Keep in mind also that the Emperor is pretty arrogant, and isn't overly concerned at this point. He probably doesn't even consider any speeches by a single senator to have much to threaten him with. And even if she got away, life for her is over. Her political career is gone, her connections are going to largely disown her (save for those to the Rebellion), and friends and family may prefer to remain on Palpatine's good side rather than stick their necks out for Mon.

At least, that's how I think the Emperor would feel right now, but I'd like to know your thoughts on what I said just now.

[Big s]

2 hours ago, F-ZeroOne said:

I can think of a few incidents where there were warnings or at least investigations afterwards revealed that there were at least hints of possible future trouble that were overlooked or not considered serious enough to investigate, but I think its going to be difficult to provide examples without violating commenting policy. And they were also not expecting Mothma to speak; Organa out rules-lawyered them at the last moment. Her speech was also fairly short once she laid out her background, which may be why they didn't shut it down in time. At the end of the day, though, sometimes drama just gotta drama. 😄

I can’t think of any active type incidents that went down that way.

And they didn’t expect a chance she would speak, otherwise they wouldn’t have gone through the trouble or infiltrating papa Organa’s escape crew.

1 hour ago, pengbuzz said:

Keep in mind also that the Emperor is pretty arrogant, and isn't overly concerned at this point. He probably doesn't even consider any speeches by a single senator to have much to threaten him with. And even if she got away, life for her is over. Her political career is gone, her connections are going to largely disown her (save for those to the Rebellion), and friends and family may prefer to remain on Palpatine's good side rather than stick their necks out for Mon.

I personally would think it extremely believable and far more realistic that would have happened. Her speech was a bit flimsy and there seemed to be a lack of evidence over what occurred. Not only that, but far fewer people were killed there than the squishening incident that happened not too far before this and I don’t think they’d have cared much. 
Then there’s here actions during her escape that would’ve realistically sawed people on her side to have changed their minds. There was a security member murdered in front of several witnesses(not saying she didn’t deserve to die), but also a limo driver in front of others.

A smarter writing team would’ve found some way to get her to escape the situation without leaving any bodies behind, or at least to do it in a way to hide what had to be done. If they had done that, it would’ve made it far more reasonable to believe that other senators would’ve sided with her

[Seto Kaiba]

12 hours ago, Big s said:

Maybe by underdeveloped countries, but I can’t think of a first world example 

There was a really prominent example that happened in a major First World country about four years back... 

 

1 minute ago, pengbuzz said:

Keep in mind also that the Emperor is pretty arrogant, and isn't overly concerned at this point. He probably doesn't even consider any speeches by a single senator to have much to threaten him with. And even if she got away, life for her is over. Her political career is gone, her connections are going to largely disown her (save for those to the Rebellion), and friends and family may prefer to remain on Palpatine's good side rather than stick their necks out for Mon.

At least, that's how I think the Emperor would feel right now, but I'd like to know your thoughts on what I said just now.

Oh, absolutely.

The Emperor is the origin of the Empire's systemic arrogance and belief that they have everything and everyone under their control.  He played the Republic so completely and so well that he has reason to believe that there's nobody who can pose a real threat to his rule.

Mon Mothma's story arc in the Andor-adjacent novel The Mask of Fear is basically a longform explanation of why the Emperor doesn't consider Mon Mothma any real threat.  Her outspoken pacifism and naive attempts to curtail the Emperor's power through Senate legislation unintentionally buys her years of being beneath suspicion as a possible rebel in the eyes of the Empire.  The ISB was never able to link her to any rebel activity despite years of surveillance since she wasn't actually involved in any.  That was all Luthen/"Axis".  So when the ISB starts planning her arrest, they misjudge the situation quite badly because they think they're going to get no more than token resistance from a pacifist bleeding heart senator who would never hurt a fly.  This is a person whose idea of political violence is a tersely worded letter.

Odds are the Empire probably didn't consider her a real threat even after her escape was aided by a rebel agent.  She was just an unpopular senator from a wealthy family.  Cutting off her access to her family's money and monitoring her associates would be enough to render her powerless in the Empire's eyes.  As a rebel leader, she'd be more hindrance than help due to her naivete and reluctance to take decisive action.  They were probably more interested in using the knowledge that she had rebel ties to help identify actual rebels and arrest them than they were in bringing her in as a "rebel mastermind".

Spoiler

The painful irony being that the Emperor and Empire were probably correct about Mon Mothma being a useful idiot for their cause in the long run.

Once she finally got her hands on real political power, she proved to be so determined to go back to the fundamentally broken system of government from before the Clone Wars that she ultimately undermined the New Republic so badly that it was unable to prevent the rise of the First Order and collapsed.

 

8 minutes ago, Big s said:

Not only that, but far fewer people were killed there than the squishening incident that happened not too far before this and I don’t think they’d have cared much. 

You're assuming - without evidence - that the Ghorman Massacre is just the events that we see onscreen and not something that continued after Cassian fled town.  After all, this is explicitly described as a worse event than the so-called Tarkin Massacre that killed 500 people.

 

8 minutes ago, Big s said:

Then there’s here actions during her escape that would’ve realistically sawed people on her side to have changed their minds. There was a security member murdered in front of several witnesses(not saying she didn’t deserve to die), but also a limo driver in front of others.

You're assuming the people in the story have the same omniscient knowledge the audience does.

Bail Organa's guards - and the ISB agent infiltrating them - were dressed as civilians and using weapons smuggled into the Senate.  What bystanders saw was some random lady try to grab Senator Mothma away from her escort, shout about being an ISB agent while brandishing a blaster, and then get shot as a rebel spy by the senator's own security.  The bystanders are NOT going to have a clear picture of what actually happened there... esp. since the ISB is unlikely to publicly admit that the two people who died were ISB agents.

Considering the Imperial reputation for gung-ho violence that recently saw a massive massacre on Ghorman occur, some of the public might assume that the people who died (e.g. her "trusted" driver of many years) died trying to get her to safety while she was being abducted or something along those lines.

 

8 minutes ago, Big s said:

A smarter writing team would’ve found some way to get her to escape the situation without leaving any bodies behind, or at least to do it in a way to hide what had to be done. If they had done that, it would’ve made it far more reasonable to believe that other senators would’ve sided with her

Audiences would be complaining that her escape was too easy if nobody got hurt.

The senators siding with her weren't going to do so openly, for fear of being the next to be disappeared by the ISB.  They would already have been skeptical of the Empire's story too.

[Big s]

18 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Audiences would be complaining that her escape was too easy if nobody got hurt.

I’m complaining because it was too easy the way it was done. It basically felt like it was barely an inconvenience. A better writer could’ve made a great escape scene while building tension because they couldn’t kill on the way out, or had to dispose of bodies to avoid ruining her fragile reputation 

 

23 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The senators siding with her weren't going to do so openly, for fear of being the next to be disappeared by the ISB.  They would already have been skeptical of the Empire's story too.

I don’t see why anyone would side with her after seeing what just happened. She wasn’t disappeared, she murdered her way out. And others would easily have seen it that way. It basically makes the imperials actually seem like martyrs 

19 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

There was a really prominent example that happened in a major First World country about four years back... 

I can’t come up with one where it wasn’t under a riot situation. This was just three people in only two groups

 

31 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Considering the Imperial reputation for gung-ho violence that recently saw a massive massacre on Ghorman occur, some of the public might assume that the people who died (e.g. her "trusted" driver of many years) died trying to get her to safety while she was being abducted or something along those lines.

Looked more like she didn’t like her driver and had him murdered. And the witnesses barely cared anyway. They just were casually walking up to a guy that just got shot dead and the others didn’t even hear the shot fired and were casually walking on.