Will Kawamori San do a redesign for the VF-1?

[ewilen]

The VF-1SOL is another redesign of the basic VF-1 format. But we aren't sure if Kawamori did it.

I think I read in an interview with Kawamori that the VF-1 is smaller than the VF-0 because it's designed to be able to board enemy space ships. Aside from that, the VF-1 doesn't need to be as big because it doesn't need to carry lots of fuel. And smaller size/mass means smaller target, better acceleration, and possibly better maneuverability. (Although I'm sure many, many factors contribute to maneuverability.)

About the reason for the VF-0 and its relation to the VF-1, the links Hurin posted are the best place to start.

[Nani?!]

And smaller size/mass means smaller target, better acceleration, and possibly better maneuverability. (Although I'm sure many, many factors contribute to maneuverability.)

I dunno about this.

Smaller target: It's not exactly like shooting a target 300 meters away then at 500 yards away with a rifle. The difference in size between the VF-1 and the VF-0 would not benefit (at least notably) their pilots from evading incoming bogies and projectiles. However, differences in speed and stealth are.

Better acceleration: C'mon... This is really false. The biggest factor that results in better acceleration is thrust. Again, we're not comparing a bullet to a F 22 (although theyre almost comparable). The SIZE difference between the VF-0 and the VF-1 hardly contributes to the acceleration. Given the same amount of THRUST, it's even likely that the VF-0 would fly faster because of it's superior aerodynamics.

Maneuverability: Like you said, theres so many factors to this. But as an example with real world jets, a higher end Sukhoi maneuvers better than a much smaller F/A-18.

So yeah, I think the only logical explanation is the one SK gave about the boarding on enemy ships. And to simply be realistic, the VF-1 was designed 20 years ago. Though it's understandable that people want continuity between the vf-1 and vf-0, I think we have to be a little more flexible rather than trying to fit a square block into a circular hole.

[DrClay]

Everyone here seems to think that to make a new jet and call it a VF-1 would be to erase the old one. What if BW mad an new OVA series continuing the story begun in Macross 0? It's done all the time in fanboy favorites. Think of it like 80's He-man vs. 00's He-Man... same group of characters, new designs. Continuing the macross story via alternate tellings keeps macross fresh without stretching it too thin. No one forgot about Gundam's Wing Zero when the movie came out and it suddenly had angel wings.... and it wasn't like it took away from either of the previous Wings when the Fix figure was announced.

[ewilen]

You may be right about the smaller target issue, but a related issue is visibility. Here I do believe that larger aircraft can be visually spotted more easily and at greater ranges, especially when viewed from above/below (relative to the aircraft). Visual spotting remains an important factor in modern jet combat--and could become moreso if stealth technology outpaces sensor technology.

Mass (or rather weight) is the denominator in thrust/weight ratio, so it is a factor in acceleration and certainly in vertical climb. The F-15 weighs about 50% more than the F-16 (empty weights) and the F-14 is 80% more massive than the F-18. Both of the larger jets are faster than the smaller ones, but they also have greater thrust. The VF-0 is probably 50-80% more massive than the VF-1, so the VF-1 should have better acceleration and vertical climb assuming the same or similar engines. At least, before considering aerodynamic streamlining; you may have a point about that. It's also possible that if they'd wanted to build the VF-1 bigger, they would have built bigger fusion engines, but we don't really know whether technological limitations could have played a factor there.

Also, mass is an even bigger factor in space, while streamlining is irrelevant. So the VF-1's smaller mass is an even bigger advantage in that environment. (Although it is offset somewhat by having a smaller capacity for reaction mass. Once the FAST packs come out, though, small size becomes a huge advantage, since you now have huge propellant/reaction mass tanks attached to a relatively small craft.)

If you're thinking of the later Su-27 variants, don't they get a lot of their maneuverability from thrust vectoring? In which case, apples and oranges. The VF-0 and VF-1 have similar thrust vectoring capability. More mass requires more thrust to reorient it. (Control surfaces are also a huge factor, according to David H. But again, the two airframes are pretty much the same here.)

Since I found the original quote by Kawamori (in one of the threads Hurin referenced), I found another reason for the small size: stowability on space ships.

[Nani?!]

Gundam Wing Zero's wings is an UPGRADE No?

Anyway, Alternate universes/timelines? I dunno about that. Let's not get too out of hand. The last thing I want is for Macross to get all magical (excessive cheesy SCIFI) on me like Gundam. I think part of the appeal of Macross is it's generally continual, all related universe. I'd really hate to see it get too fruity like Gundam has gotten with some of it's ova's (though 08th MS team was cool). What makes us macross fans have the upperhand to gundam is that we have a more believable and tighter storyline.

I'd seriously start crying if I started seeing Valks with angel wings and a goofy plot explaining why it's practical. Good God NO.

[Draykov]

I'd seriously start crying if I started seeing Valks with angel wings...

Like the SV-51?

[Nani?!]

Also, mass is an even bigger factor in space, while streamlining is irrelevant. So the VF-1's smaller mass is an even bigger advantage in that environment. (Although it is offset somewhat by having a smaller capacity for reaction mass. Once the FAST packs come out, though, small size becomes a huge advantage, since you now have huge propellant/reaction mass tanks attached to a relatively small craft.)

True to some extent. But I think I'll emphasize again that the size difference between the VF 1 & the VF 0 is not of "holy $hit!" proportions. I think technology now and technology in the Macross timeline is more than sufficient enough to compensate (in thrust) for the size difference between the two. Also, if you look at the Macross Plus generation fighters, they increased in size not decreased.

For the Smaller size = Better storage on ships explanation, it's true but upon closer examination it also limits the individual valk's capacity to arm itself as well. Smaller size means less missiles. Also if you look at the current developmental progression of jets in the real world, everything is stored internally. Again, bringing in Mac +, both the yf 19 and yf 21 carry their missiles internally. Both valks are also larger in size. Given that you CANT pressure pack missiles, or manufacture them IN THE VALK itself, youre gonna need more space.

Lastly, Mass and Size should not be confused with weight. It's definitely possible for a larger valk to weigh less than a smaller one. And even though it is heavier, I think designers always compensate the added weight with added thrust to make it speed-wise superior to it's predecessor.

In all I think, SK could of done all of us continuity geeks a favor by making the VF-0 closer in design to the VF-1 than it is. Maybe making it even smaller than the VF 1. I dunno~ anyway, I think we're stressing this WAY too much.

[Nani?!]

I'd seriously start crying if I started seeing Valks with angel wings...

Like the SV-51?

Eh... the SV-51 is not as funky as the Gundam zero angel wings.

I mean Gundam zero in it's DESIGN itself is aiite, but FEATHERY wings on a giant robot? That's emphasizing the title a teeny bit TOO MUCH.

I hope with all sincerity that Macross 7 is as funky as it gets.

[ewilen]

I think I'll emphasize again that the size difference between the VF 1 & the VF 0 is not of "holy $hit!" proportions.

To put it more in perspective:

Those are two 1/72 Hasegawa kits posted by Graham in the "larger scale VF-0" thread.

In all I think, SK could of done all of us continuity geeks a favor by making the VF-0 closer in design to the VF-1 than it is.  Maybe making it even smaller than the VF 1.  I dunno~ anyway, I think we're stressing this WAY too much. 

Well, that's what we're here for. Anyway, I'm not too bothered by the size difference and I even like the rationale (both official by Kawamori and speculative on my part). But I do think it's interesting that Kawamori decided to make the VF-1 as small as he did back in the early 80's.

[Mule]

I think I'll emphasize again that the size difference between the VF 1 & the VF 0 is not of "holy $hit!" proportions.

To put it more in perspective:

Those are two 1/72 Hasegawa kits posted by Graham in the "larger scale VF-0" thread.

Holy $hit!

Hey someone had to say it

But seriously, that is a much bigger size difference than I expected.

Edited January 30, 2004 by Mule

[eugimon]

suddenly that 1/100 scale is making a lot more sense...

[ewilen]

Heh. Just found the data on mass in the Compendium. Empty weights:

VF-0A/S: 16191 kg

VF-0D: 16805 kg

VF-1: 13250 kg

And data for max speed in level flight:

VF-0A/S: Mach 2.74 at 11,000 m

VF-0D: Mach 2.62 at 11,000 m

VF-1: Mach 2.71 at 10,000 m

(Note the altitude difference.)

Data for thrust, per engine:

VF-0: 91.08 kN, or 148.9 kN with afterburning

VF-1A/J/D: 11,500 kg [x g] = ~ 112.5 kN in Earth's gravity; overboost doubles the thrust

VF-1S: not stated explicitly, but more than the others

Thrust to weight ratio is calculated by converting mass in kg to kN (multiply by 9.7856 and divide by 1000), then dividing the thrust by the mass. Total thrust for either aircraft is double the thrust of a single engine. My calculations yield the following T:W ratios--

VF-0A/S (normal): 1.15

VF-0D (normal): 1.11

VF-0A/S (afterburner): 1.88

VF-0D (afterburner): 1.81

VF-1A/J/D (normal): 1.74

VF-1A/J/D (overboost): 3.47 (!)

Now, the T:W advantage of the VF-1 in overboost vs. VF-0 in AB is mostly due to the engines, but in normal operation, the VF-1's T:W advantage is entirely due to lower mass, and it is substantial. Either way, it would translate into significantly higher acceleration, even though the maximum speeds for the two aircraft are basically the same.

Of course, all this is fictional data about fictional aircraft...

Edit: AFTERburning, not OVERburning. Duh.

Edited February 1, 2004 by ewilen

[imode]

To put it more in perspective:

Those are two 1/72 Hasegawa kits posted by Graham in the "larger scale VF-0" thread.

Daddy like!

[Draykov]

To put it more in perspective:

Those are two 1/72 Hasegawa kits posted by Graham in the "larger scale VF-0" thread.

One thing strikes me as strange in the comparison picture. It seems as if that VF-0 pilot would have to wedge himself into the VF-1 cockpit with a crowbar. Maybe it's just me.

Edited January 31, 2004 by Draykov

[Aegis!]

To put it more in perspective:

Those are two 1/72 Hasegawa kits posted by Graham in the "larger scale VF-0" thread.

One thing strikes me as strange in the comparison picture. It seems as if that VF-0 pilot would have to wedge himself into the VF-1 cockpit with a crowbar. Maybe it's just me.

That might be because of the persperctive and becausr the VF-1 copkit is less bulbous than the VF-0´s.

anyway , if you take the whole size of the VF-0 as a refference you can see clearly that the VF-0 pilot would easily fit in the VF-1 copkit .

[GreenGuy42]

To put it more in perspective:

Those are two 1/72 Hasegawa kits posted by Graham in the "larger scale VF-0" thread.

Daddy like!

Goddamn!!!

Well, it certainly seems like the VF-0 could easily STEP on it's little brother... wow....

[Aegis!]

BTW , shouldn´t this be on the TV and Movies section ? I don´t see how , looking at the things discussed here , this thread should be on the toys section.

Also it seems that some people start to realise how REALLY big the VF-0 is , but I´m sure there´ll be people who´ll totally dismiss that pic because of their fanatism anyway ...

[imode]

BTW , shouldn´t this be on the TV and Movies section ? I don´t see how , looking at the things discussed here , this thread should be on the toys section.

Also it seems that some people start to realise how REALLY big the VF-0 is , but I´m sure there´ll be people who´ll totally dismiss that pic because of their fanatism anyway ...

You don't mean dismiss. You mean EMBRACE!

[DrClay]

Gundam Wing Zero's wings is an UPGRADE No?

Anyway, Alternate universes/timelines? I dunno about that. Let's not get too out of hand. The last thing I want is for Macross to get all magical (excessive cheesy SCIFI) on me like Gundam. I think part of the appeal of Macross is it's generally continual, all related universe. I'd really hate to see it get too fruity like Gundam has gotten with some of it's ova's (though 08th MS team was cool). What makes us macross fans have the upperhand to gundam is that we have a more believable and tighter storyline.

In Gundam wing the TV show, Wing is upgraded to wing zero. In the movie, Endless waltz, Wing Zero has big angel wings. They're just there, no talk of upgrades, they try to destroy it right at the beginning, why would they upgrade it to do that? There are flashbacks from the movie to things that happened in the TV show, in these flashbacks the Wing Gundam has the angel wings... The movie version is an alternate. At the end (spoiler) they destroy the pretty Gundam, so there's no arguing that the Fix action figure is an upgrade made in the storyline either. These are just alternate versions of robots just for the sake of toys and models, personally I don't have a problem with that.

Getting back to Macross, The continuity has been stretched ludicrous far already. and alternate universes have been introduced.

SO, you gotta' ask yourself, which is worse? Macross II, which can be ignored if you don't like it (but at least it introduced a cool valk) OR Macross 7, which you inevitably have to include as part of the macross saga [and most of the mecha from it are just variations of earlier mecha (now with killer soundsystems, AWESOME and RADICAL, dude!)]

Kawamori first idea to continue the Macross was alternate universes. This way, he could make new stories without screwing up Macross (why mess with perfection)

[Druna Skass]

Kawamori first idea to continue the Macross was alternate universes. This way, he could make new stories without screwing up Macross (why mess with perfection)

Now that I would love to see. That way no one can piss and moan that something doesn't line up with the first series.

[Draykov]

BTW , shouldn´t this be on the TV and Movies section ? I don´t see how , looking at the things discussed here , this thread should be on the toys section.

Also it seems that some people start to realise how REALLY big the VF-0 is , but I´m sure there´ll be people who´ll totally dismiss that pic because of their fanatism anyway ...

Your piss and vinegar cocktail is ready.

[wolfx]

In Gundam wing the TV show, Wing is upgraded to wing zero. In the movie, Endless waltz, Wing Zero has big angel wings. They're just there, no talk of upgrades, they try to destroy it right at the beginning, why would they upgrade it to do that? There are flashbacks from the movie to things that happened in the TV show, in these flashbacks the Wing Gundam has the angel wings... The movie version is an alternate. At the end (spoiler) they destroy the pretty Gundam, so there's no arguing that the Fix action figure is an upgrade made in the storyline either. These are just alternate versions of robots just for the sake of toys and models, personally I don't have a problem with that.

The feathery Wing Gundam Zero Custom is basically just a redesign to the original WGZ. Just think Macross geeky transformation toggles redesigned to DYRL/Macross Zero throttles...which later got accepted as canon as if the toggled transformation never existed. Its not an upgrade. The same goes for the Wing Gundam FIX figure. Wing Gundam version ka. (short for katoki) is by Hajime Katoki, some dude that redesigns/overhauls some Gundams to look more kickass. In fact, the whole FIX line was designed by him.

[Isamu Atreides 86]

Kawamori first idea to continue the Macross was alternate universes.  This way, he could make new stories without screwing up Macross (why mess with perfection)

Now that I would love to see. That way no one can piss and moan that something doesn't line up with the first series.

well Mac2 isn't in line with the first show (and i know the Froating Head had nothing to do with it), and people still piss and moan about it....

[DrClay]

well Mac2 isn't in line with the first show (and i know the Froating Head had nothing to do with it), and people still piss and moan about it....

well, maybe it sucks, but it doesn't matter because it's an alternate storyline, that was my point there.

And I know Kawamori didn't design Mac II valks... on this site is the alternate reality valks that SK DID design, they were later developed and used for Mac+... I didn't say he DID make an alternate story, I said he WANTED to make an alternate storyline.

[DrClay]

The feathery Wing Gundam Zero Custom is basically just a redesign to the original WGZ. Just think Macross geeky transformation toggles redesigned to DYRL/Macross Zero throttles...which later got accepted as canon as if the toggled transformation never existed. Its not an upgrade. The same goes for the Wing Gundam FIX figure. Wing Gundam version ka. (short for katoki) is by Hajime Katoki, some dude that redesigns/overhauls some Gundams to look more kickass. In fact, the whole FIX line was designed by him.

that's was my point, they're ALTERNATE versions. It's not like there was no show because the robot was re-designed for the movie. this seems like a simple point to me but I'll repeat it anyways:

If a redesign of the VF-1 showed up at the end of Mac 0, it wouldn't erase the original. just like my NEW He-man action figure stands next to my old, my presumtive Yamato Mac 0 vf-1 would stand next to my DYRL vf-1. It wouldn't rewrite history. I wouldn't have to throw away my VF-1s or rip out the pages of line art of the old designs.

Plus, why not an alternate storyline? Don't you MWers want more Macross? how else would we get it? MORE prequels? Macross -1? VF-(-1)s? or more sequels? Macross 8: the new enemy, flying around in a VF-23 (same as a vf-22 except lighter blue) our hero fights the Simons! now, to defeat the Simons, he must sing American Idol style while withstanding Simon's insults.... etc... etc...

Edited January 31, 2004 by DrClay

[ewilen]

More perspective. From a post by Graham in the Franklin Mint thread, a comparison of the VF-1 and the F-14:

Note that at 18.69 m long, the VF-0 is almost exactly the same size as an F-14.

[Sumdumgai]

More perspective. From a post by Graham in the Franklin Mint thread, a comparison of the VF-1 and the F-14:

Note that at 18.69 m long, the VF-0 is almost exactly the same size as an F-14.

Okay, in this pic and the other pic shown earlier, we see a size difference and it's what I was expecting. What's the pissing and moaning about for the idea of a 1/48 VF-0?

I'm sure there'll be people dismissing the idea of a 1/48 anyway because of their fanatacism...

1/48 Monster not a bad idea... j/k Although, if people will by it and Yamato wants to make it, why not? They're supposedly doing that 1/60.

Why do a redesign of the VF-1? SK's already done the VF-0 and the VF-EX valks (SW-XA1 and SW-XA2). Maybe he'd put swing bars on a redesign! Then the chunky-monkeys would be more perfect-transformation than the 1/48 VF-1.

[Hurin]

If a redesign of the VF-1 showed up at the end of Mac 0, it wouldn't erase the original. just like my NEW He-man action figure stands next to my old, my presumtive Yamato Mac 0 vf-1 would stand next to my DYRL vf-1. It wouldn't rewrite history. I wouldn't have to throw away my VF-1s or rip out the pages of line art of the old designs.

No, you wouldn't. But in many people's minds, it would render all the older renditions "obsolete." If the original creator comes out and says: "This is the VF-1, according to me, the guy who created it". . . then a lot of people will be looking at their Yamato collection and going: "Well then. . . what exactly do these represent? A temporary pit-stop on the way to this new ideal of the VF-1 that seems to constantly germenating in your noggin?"

If it comes directly from Kawamori, many will now consider their "classic" design valks to be non-canon.

A drastic re-design would insert into Macross all the of the lameness, arguing, and factions that now hold sway over the Star Wars fanbase, or any other community where the "gods" of those universes come back and retroactively change things that are already set in stone. It's generally not a good idea. . . except for the pocket book of the toy manufacturers and the producers.

You can call it a "simple" concept if you want. And to you, it might be. But others might feel differently about Macross, and how Kawamori's decisions influence it. Really, it all comes down to how you view an artist's intention and its effect on a final piece of art. Or, indeed, if a piece of art can ever truly be considered final (George Lucas sure doesn't seem to think so. . . if you can call his movies art).

Anyways, for all those reasons, and probably more that are beyond my puny brain's ability to comprehend, I don't think there will be a redesign.

H

P.S. I won't argue Star Wars and/or Lucas. I already have. With ugly results.

[DrClay]

No, you wouldn't. But in many people's minds, it would render all the older renditions "obsolete." If the original creator comes out and says: "This is the VF-1, according to me, the guy who created it". . . then a lot of people will be looking at their Yamato collection and going: "Well then. . . what exactly do these represent? A temporary pit-stop on the way to this new ideal of the VF-1 that seems to constantly germenating in your noggin?"

If it comes directly from Kawamori, many will now consider their "classic" design valks to be non-canon.

A drastic re-design would insert into Macross all the of the lameness, arguing, and factions that now hold sway over the Star Wars fanbase, or any other community where the "gods" of those universes come back and retroactively change things that are already set in stone. It's generally not a good idea. . . except for the pocket book of the toy manufacturers and the producers.

You can call it a "simple" concept if you want. And to you, it might be. But others might feel differently about Macross, and how Kawamori's decisions influence it. Really, it all comes down to how you view an artist's intention and its effect on a final piece of art. Or, indeed, if a piece of art can ever truly be considered final (George Lucas sure doesn't seem to think so. . . if you can call his movies art).

Anyways, for all those reasons, and probably more that are beyond my puny brain's ability to comprehend, I don't think there will be a redesign.

H

P.S. I won't argue Star Wars and/or Lucas. I already have. With ugly results.

I didn't see anyone talking like that when the creator of the original Gaundam designed the turn-A Gundam.... Do you know anyone who considers the RX-78-2 obsolete because of the existanse of the alternate storyline "Turn-A Gundam"?

And yeah, star wars is full of plot holes due to the creator going back and re-writing history, but once again, you you seem to mis-understand me, these problems are caused because star wars is supposed to be a single continuity. If Episode 1 was supposed to be an alternate Universe, there would be no way it could create plot holes.

Think of Universal Century Gundam vs. After Colony Gundam... no one says, "The existance of the Wing Gundam is a plot hole because in the original series the RX-78-2 is the only gundam!" they are related only in concept.

Think of the final fantasy series, each game is independant of the others, the stories follow the same ideas with the same story type. Each game is great in its own way. There are still fans of older games in the series like FFVI (and I KNOW that Final Fantasy X-2 is a direct sequel to FFX, it doesn't invalidate my point)

so what exactly is your point? You don't want new Macross series because there might be a new "ideal" valkyrie? Or maybe that there can only be one canon.... if that's the case then tell me, which canon is correct: Star trek or Babylon five? each has its own canon... and your Star wars arguement proves my point, inserting new Macross stuff (valk designs, storylines, characters, etc... etc...) into the existing Macross storyline would lame it up.... hence, I say that ALTERNATE storylines would be good.

I sorry if 2 animes by SK with 2 seperate canons is too hard a concept for you to grasp. It must be very hard for you, going to movies and thinking things like "Why does everyone keep refering to Ted as 'Neo'? and where's Bill? and is it because of the Matrix that they were able to make that phone booth travel through time? I'm so confused!"

[ewilen]

I don't know if this is quite what's being talked about, but the way I see it (increasingly) is Kawamori has created a universe which serves as the background for his stories. Not all of his stories are really "about" that universe--they just happen to occur "in" it and benefit artistically from the richness of the background and financially from the brand-name recognition. This is a bit like Tolkien going from The Hobbit to The Lord of the Rings and then back to the Silmarillion, except that Tolkien was both more obsessed with continuity and tended to place history more in center stage. As a result, Tolkien did revise bits of The Hobbit (mainly the section with Gollum), but as with Kawamori, the three major works are quite different, with different emphases and different narrative styles reflecting different authorial perspectives. (The Hobbit was "written" by Bilbo, LotR by Frodo, and The Silmarillion was probably "written" by Elves.)

Getting back to Kawamori and Macross, Kawamori seems to have taken a more nuanced stance than either Gundam or Tolkien...the idea is that while there may only be one "real" continuity, the various works set in it are artistic representations, not documentaries. Sort of the way that various historical novels and movies play around with the facts in order to suit the artistic needs of the authors. Even straightforward narratives like "Tora! Tora! Tora!", "The Longest Day", "A Bridge too Far", and "Midway" undoubtedly have fictive elements combined with the facts, let alone something like "Saving Private Ryan" or "The Winds of War".

Kawamori's one concession to the continuity freaks (of which I am admittedly one, although not fanatically so) is to declare DYRL to be a movie within the continuity and thus theoretically less definitive than the original TV show as far as the bare facts are concerned.

Edited February 1, 2004 by ewilen

[Aegis!]

Oh jesus lord !

All we needed was a Star Wars/StarTrek/LOTR fanboys debate in Macross world <_<

Man , please , don´t EVER compare things (i was gonna use another term but for the sake of politeness I´ll keep it to myself ) like SW or ST to Macross

it´s like poeple can´t get american Sci-Fi series out of their heads

BTW , If Kawamori hasn´t redesigned the VF-1 after 20 damn years of sequels and games (M+ , M7 , VF-X , VF-X2 , M3 , etc...) then I don´t think it´s that probable he´ll redesign it entirely now with M0. Og course he will have to touch it up a bit for it to look nice in CG but just as seen in the 20th anniversary DVD you can have an idea of how it will look like in Zero more or less. At best he´ll streamline a the outline a little bit (chest-plate + wing´s area , head unit details , etc...).

BTW , when was the last time we saw a VF-1 being made with current animation standards (traditionally drawn not CG ) ?

we haven´t seen any modern (as in post 2001) VF-1 rendition as far as I can remeber , please correct me if I´ve missed something.

[ewilen]

Does the new PS2 game count?

Edit: NOT Battlecry!

Edited February 1, 2004 by ewilen

[Rick_Randy]

Curious, Do we have any pics of what might become of the VF-1 series "classic" form?

[Nani?!]

Oh jesus lord !

All we needed was a Star Wars/StarTrek/LOTR fanboys debate in Macross world 

Man , please , don´t EVER compare things (i was gonna use another term but for the sake of politeness I´ll keep it to myself ) like SW or ST to Macross 

it´s like poeple can´t get american Sci-Fi series out of their heads

Though I agree that drawing comparisons with SW, ST & LOTR is stretching efforts in finding common comparable grounds, what's with all this "fanboy" bashing?

As far as I'm concerned everyone in here in MW is a Fan or a.k.a. SCI-FI geek (in various degrees). The effort guys like you make in attempt to degrade others by calling them "fanboys" is simply juvenile.

[Hurin]

so what exactly is your point? You don't want new Macross series because there might be a new "ideal" valkyrie? Or maybe that there can only be one canon.... if that's the case then tell me, which canon is correct: Star trek or Babylon five? each has its own canon... and your Star wars arguement proves my point, inserting new Macross stuff (valk designs, storylines, characters, etc... etc...) into the existing Macross storyline would lame it up.... hence, I say that ALTERNATE storylines would be good.

Uh, no. I would love more Macross stories, characters, and mecha. I just think you can do them without retroactively changing/altering what has come before. Hence there is no need for "ALTERNATE storylines."

How does inserting new stories, characters and mecha designs "lame it up" as long as you leave the stuff that has come before well-enough alone? When talking about a re-design of the VF-1, we're not talking about new characters, stories, or mecha designs. . . we're talking about changing an existing one. You seem to be asserting that this would be fine as long as Macross Zero is considered an "ALTERNATE storyline." I was not aware that Macross Zero is an alternate storyline. Nor have I read that it takes place in a alternate universe. To my knowledge, it is set in the same timeline, storyline, and universe as SDF Macross. M0 merely predates SDF Macross chronologically within the fictional timeline.

If Kawamori wants to come out with a re-designed VF-1 and say this is an alternate vision of what it should look like but is somehow not what they will look like a few years later when the zentraedi come to earth for Space War I because that is an alternate storyline not related to M0 in any way. . . fine. But I don't think he will say that. Nor do I think he will intend that. If he redesigns the VF-1 and places it in a story that predates M0, it stands to reason that he envisions that being the VF-1 that fights in Space War I as told in SDF Macross in an almost retroactive sense. To me, that is a simple concept.

But, re-designing the VF-1 in such a way would "lame it up". . . to use your phrase. So I doubt he would do it. Further, I doubt he would make the mistake of again "laming up" the continuity as he did with DYRL by announcing yet more alternate storylines. So, again, I don't think he's going to redesign the VF-1 to any appreciable degree.

I sorry if 2 animes by SK with 2 seperate canons is too hard a concept for you to grasp. It must be very hard for you, going to movies and thinking things like "Why does everyone keep refering to Ted as 'Neo'? and where's Bill? and is it because of the Matrix that they were able to make that phone booth travel through time? I'm so confused!"

Holy crap. That is just nonsense. I realize you are trying to be funny. But. . . that analogy just doesn't work. First, nobody is that stupid. I mean, I really shouldn't have to spell this out, but I'm going to do so: All the Macross series are obviously related. . . and to assert that my desire to see some continuity within the various Macross series with some over-wrought need to see connections with totally-unrelated series of movies (Matrix and Bill & Ted). . . well. . . there's just no point there. Except possibly a silly cheap shot that is truly ineffective due to its degree of implausibility

Kawamori has made no sign that he intends to redesign the VF-1. Nor has he indicated that there are two (or more) "canons" (unless you count the divorce from MII and the relegation of DYRL to "movie within the canon" status). In fact, he has shown some awareness of the need for continuity by stating that, where M0 is concerned, if he has to bend the canon and previously established timeline, then he will do so. . . and that will be the canon. In fact the disavowing of MII and the change to DYRL's place in the continuity shows that Kawamori is concerned with continuity to some degree. Which all sorta dovetails into what ewilen says above.

It sounds to me like you'd like to see more mecha designs and more Macross and that you are willing to sacrifice continuity to see as many of them as possible. Hence, you're willing to perpetuate the concept of these "ALTERNATE storylines" in order to bring them about. That is your right and your opinion. I'd just rather see all-new stuff than re-invented old stuff that tends to throw things into turmoil and confuse things. "ALTERNATE storylines" only muddy things up unnecessarily.

H

Edit: Mispelled ewilen's name.

Edited February 1, 2004 by Hurin