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55 minutes ago, RedWolf said:

Because relative to their size most of their mecha is small. Imagine if they had ones bigger.

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UNSPACY/NUNS would either build bigger mechs or just swarm the bigger zent units with missiles and and cannon fire?

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2 hours ago, RedWolf said:

Because relative to their size most of their mecha is small. Imagine if they had ones bigger.

If that example's anything to go by, it just makes them a bigger target.

Quamzin didn't exactly have a ton of luck with the Migg Pitt in Macross II's timeline, getting rekt by a single platoon of Valkyries and all.

 

2 hours ago, darkranger12 said:

UNSPACY/NUNS would either build bigger mechs or just swarm the bigger zent units with missiles and and cannon fire?

Considering the example's track record, it'd just take a bit more gunfire to put down and be less effective against fighting the smaller mecha.

 

1 hour ago, darkranger12 said:

Also going forward I guess the VF-24 is the main unit replacing the VF-171 for Central while the remote colonies will be building their own units?

Earth and the central New UN Forces decided in 2057 to adopt the VF-24.  The emigrant governments are spoiled for choice.

Some of the New UN Government member states are noted to have transitioned to all-Ghost air forces in the previous generation, and will presumably eventually upgrade to a new generation of Ghost when one becomes available.

Others will doubtless fill in the gaps in the disseminated YF-24 Evolution spec with the technology available to them and build their own local/"export" specification versions of the VF-24.

A few, like Macross Frontier, Macross Galaxy, and the Brisingr Alliance, will develop their own original models of Variable Fighter based on the YF-24 Evolution spec.  Some will sell that as an export specification to their neighbors.

And of course there will be those who buy the export versions of the locally-developed VFs exported by governments like Frontier, Galaxy, et. al. over adopting the VF-24's export specification.

There will also doubtless be those who drag their heels on the matter due to a lack of resources or a lack of a perceived need to transition to a 5th Generation fighter and will just keep rolling with whatever they have.

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47 minutes ago, RedWolf said:

Then there are those like Macross 7 that chose the VF-19 to be their mainstay. 

I thought Macross 7's mainstay was the VF-11. And later,  as of Frontier era would've adopted the 171 . And , of course. a smaller wing of VF-19's. How many , I couldn't guess. But I didn't imagine 7 (or anyone) could afford 19's as their mainstay.

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29 minutes ago, Bolt said:

I thought Macross 7's mainstay was the VF-11. And later,  as of Frontier era would've adopted the 171 . And , of course. a smaller wing of VF-19's. How many , I couldn't guess. But I didn't imagine 7 (or anyone) could afford 19's as their mainstay.

I'm not so sure Macross 7 switched to the VF-171. In Macross Dynamite 7 we saw a Teal VF-17 flyby. Diamond Force switched to the VF-22S. This is 2047. In 2046 117th Research Fleet was fielding VF-171. The VF-17 in Macross 7 was considered Gen 3.5 VF. I can see under the hood improvements make it on par with a VF-171.

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1 hour ago, Bolt said:

I thought Macross 7's mainstay was the VF-11. And later,  as of Frontier era would've adopted the 171 . And , of course. a smaller wing of VF-19's. How many , I couldn't guess. But I didn't imagine 7 (or anyone) could afford 19's as their mainstay.

To put it into context: the M7 Fleet's decision to adopt the VF-19 occurred while that series was being produced.

The VF-171 wasn't introduced (in the real world) until Frontier, and Kawamori-san decided that it, not the VF-19, became the successor to the VF-11 in-universe.

It's unclear if that decision was retroactively applied to the M7 fleet, or not.

 

So, both you (Bolt) and RedWolf are correct.

It's all as clear as mud.  However, the only things to add clarity is that the 117th Research Fleet was a relatively new-ish fleet and most likely went with the best VF they could get their hands on when they launched in 2046 (the VF-171).  The M7 Fleet had a massive investment in the VF-11.  At the time of the M7 series (2047), they were depicted as just starting to consider a successor to it.  The Varota War may have sped things up, but no matter what they ended up using (VF-19 or VF-171), it was still a dozen or so years before most of the VF-11's were replaced.

 

Come to think of it, it's arguable that mid-way through the VF-11's replacement, they opted to go with the VF-25, or even the VF-31 (pending how far along in the replacement process they were, and the [material] costs of producing those more advanced VFs).  I was also going to mention something about factory retooling costs, but that doesn't ever seem to be an issue in Macross... 🤷‍♂️

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13 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Or the VF-9E, which couldn't handle its new engines in testing and developed a disquieting habit of exploding

You know I wouldn't know what else to expect after putting a VF-22 engine into a Cutlass. Makes sense though, could only upgrade them for so long.

 

13 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The Macross Galaxy fleet tried to make a show of keeping older model General Galaxy VFs in fighting shape, with mixed results.

I'm only familiar with the ADR-04-Mk.XV Super Defender and VF-19C/MG21 Excalibur (ironically two non-General Galaxy mechs) from their arsenal of older units. Can you elaborate more on them?

 

8 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

If that example's anything to go by, it just makes them a bigger target.

Quamzin didn't exactly have a ton of luck with the Migg Pitt in Macross II's timeline, getting rekt by a single platoon of Valkyries and all.

Isn't that why the VB-6 had trouble with certain operations, at least in Battroid mode? (Even in it's debut in VF-X2 you could only see it if Aegis [aka you the player] transform into it iirc.) But yeah essentially a battlesuit within a battlesuit only asks for trouble.

 

8 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Earth and the central New UN Forces decided in 2057 to adopt the VF-24.  The emigrant governments are spoiled for choice.

 

I wonder if there could be theoretically a force of mostly/all giant sized Zentradi, there's multiple options they have. It probably sounds like it could end in multiple disasters, but hey, Macross 29 opt for a complete pacifist route; so I'm not judging. 

 

5 hours ago, sketchley said:

To put it into context: the M7 Fleet's decision to adopt the VF-19 occurred while that series was being produced.

The VF-171 wasn't introduced (in the real world) until Frontier, and Kawamori-san decided that it, not the VF-19, became the successor to the VF-11 in-universe.

It's unclear if that decision was retroactively applied to the M7 fleet, or not.

Yeah, it's why I thought the VF-19F at least would've found itself in a mass numbers in regular fleets as opposed to being only relegated to special forces units. 

 

5 hours ago, sketchley said:

It's all as clear as mud.  However, the only things to add clarity is that the 117th Research Fleet was a relatively new-ish fleet and most likely went with the best VF they could get their hands on when they launched in 2046 (the VF-171).

I thought the VF-171 was only introduced in 2046, so it could go through flight and combat testing. Though the 117th Research Fleet was lost in 2048, so I can imagine by that time they were mass produced and started to replace the VF-11's/VF-19's/etc. Probably would've been a good playable unit in VF-X2 if they were made before (production-wise, of course.😋)

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11 hours ago, RedWolf said:

Then there are those like Macross 7 that chose the VF-19 to be their mainstay. 

... all none of them?  Remember, Frontier-era and later materials indicate the VF-19 was never adopted as a main fighter due to export restrictions placed on them in the wake of the Sharon Apple incident, the high initial and operating costs, and the control difficulties that led to loss-of-control accidents and crashes during the initial attempts to adopt the VF-19 by the central New UN Forces.  It would not have been possible to have the VF-19 become a main fighter for an entire emigrant fleet.

Both the Macross Frontier movie novelization and Variable Fighter Master File indicate the Macross 7 fleet opted to adopt the Macross Frontier fleet's VF-25 as the fleet's next main fighter.  Max and Milia sortie in VF-25s in the climax of the movie novelization, and in Master File Emerald Force was tasked to carry out operational evaluation on the two VF-25S's and four VF-25C's that the Macross 7 fleet produced for operational evaluation of the VF-25.

 

10 hours ago, Bolt said:

I thought Macross 7's mainstay was the VF-11. And later,  as of Frontier era would've adopted the 171 . And , of course. a smaller wing of VF-19's. How many , I couldn't guess. But I didn't imagine 7 (or anyone) could afford 19's as their mainstay.

And you'd be right.  The Macross 7 fleet only had a handful of VF-19s, and would have gone from the VF-11 to VF-171 for their main forces.  Even in 2058, the VF-19 was only ever a special forces bird made in extremely low numbers.  (The Frontier fleet's lavish defense spending saw them hold a whopping 150 of them between units on loan to SMS and ones in the Frontier special forces.  Galaxy had a single squadron of them in their Corporate Army.)

 

9 hours ago, RedWolf said:

I'm not so sure Macross 7 switched to the VF-171. In Macross Dynamite 7 we saw a Teal VF-17 flyby. Diamond Force switched to the VF-22S. This is 2047. In 2046 117th Research Fleet was fielding VF-171. The VF-17 in Macross 7 was considered Gen 3.5 VF. I can see under the hood improvements make it on par with a VF-171.

Eh... it's a very safe bet they did adopt the VF-171.

While Diamond Force and Emerald Force get all the screentime, it's a very safe bet there were more than just six special forces pilots in an emigrant fleet defense force of nearly 200 warships and some 2,700 aircraft.  Only 718 VF-17s were built in total, that's much less than the number you would need to replace every VF-11 in the Macross 7 escort force and considering they were spread out to special forces units across the galaxy?  Let's just say it's pretty obvious they didn't adopt the VF-17 as their next main fighter.  (For the record, Master File identifies Emerald Force as the 5th Special Escort Combat Squadron, which would imply the existence of at least three more besides them and Diamond Force.)

Also, some of the "improvements" to make the VF-17 on par with the VF-171 would've been downgrades.  

 

9 hours ago, sketchley said:

It's unclear if that decision was retroactively applied to the M7 fleet, or not.

Available information suggests that it was.

 

9 hours ago, sketchley said:

Come to think of it, it's arguable that mid-way through the VF-11's replacement, they opted to go with the VF-25, or even the VF-31 (pending how far along in the replacement process they were, and the [material] costs of producing those more advanced VFs).  I was also going to mention something about factory retooling costs, but that doesn't ever seem to be an issue in Macross... 🤷‍♂️

Frontier-era material explicitly puts Max and Milia in VF-25s, and Master File puts Emerald Force as conducting OPEVAL on the fleet's first few VF-25s.

 

 

 

4 hours ago, TG Remix said:

You know I wouldn't know what else to expect after putting a VF-22 engine into a Cutlass. Makes sense though, could only upgrade them for so long.

Yeah.  Especially once you exceed the design tolerances of the airframe and aerodynamic design.

 

4 hours ago, TG Remix said:

I'm only familiar with the ADR-04-Mk.XV Super Defender and VF-19C/MG21 Excalibur (ironically two non-General Galaxy mechs) from their arsenal of older units. Can you elaborate more on them?

Technically, the Defender IS a General Galaxy unit... General Galaxy was formed by a merger of the overtechnology research institute and manufacturing multinational OTEC and a number of other companies like Centinental, Viggers, etc. that made things like Destroids.

The Macross Galaxy Corporate Army in Macross R uses the VF-171 Nightmare Plus as standard and one of their special forces units (Pegasus Squadron) uses a Galaxy-produced "improved" model VF-19C to flex on Shinsei Industry, but in the Macross Frontier novelization their forces also include squadrons made up of refurbished older General Galaxy VFs including VF-9s and a new variant of VF-17 designated VF-17F.

 

4 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Isn't that why the VB-6 had trouble with certain operations, at least in Battroid mode? (Even in it's debut in VF-X2 you could only see it if Aegis [aka you the player] transform into it iirc.) But yeah essentially a battlesuit within a battlesuit only asks for trouble.

The VB-6 had structural issues stemming from its sheer size and mass, which made it problematic to operate and maintain and made it slow-moving and cumbersome enough to require a VF escort in the field.  The 2050s improved specification deployed by SMS addressed and mitigated some of those issues, but made the craft a good deal more costly in the bargain by adopting the same bank-breakingly expensive ASWAG advanced energy conversion armor used in the VF-25's Armored Pack to replace the previous armor and make it lighter.

 

4 hours ago, TG Remix said:

I wonder if there could be theoretically a force of mostly/all giant sized Zentradi, there's multiple options they have. It probably sounds like it could end in multiple disasters, but hey, Macross 29 opt for a complete pacifist route; so I'm not judging. 

That'd likely have to be an emigrant fleet composed entirely of Zentradi like Macross 5 was... but the logistics inherent in keeping giant Zentradi around make it problematic at best, and Frontier was considered somewhat weird for the grandiose display of having a giant Zentradi community aboard (for tourism purposes).

 

4 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Yeah, it's why I thought the VF-19F at least would've found itself in a mass numbers in regular fleets as opposed to being only relegated to special forces units. 

Cost and operating difficulties basically left the VF-19 in general in the hands of Special Forces pilots.

Even the incredibly spend-happy Macross Frontier fleet went for the much more subdued VF-171 and built ~154 VF-19s to share between its special forces and local SMS branch.

 

4 hours ago, TG Remix said:

I thought the VF-171 was only introduced in 2046, so it could go through flight and combat testing. Though the 117th Research Fleet was lost in 2048, so I can imagine by that time they were mass produced and started to replace the VF-11's/VF-19's/etc. Probably would've been a good playable unit in VF-X2 if they were made before (production-wise, of course.😋)

FWIW, the VF-171 did make a pretty decent playable unit in Macross 30: Voices Across the Galaxy.  It was accurately put below the VF-19 and VF-22 in terms of performance, but it was still head and shoulders above any of the 3rd Generation and older VFs in the game.  (It essentially stood in for the VF-17 as well, with many of its paintjobs being those from the VF-17.)

The 117th Research Fleet was headed into Vajra space, so it would've been a priority for the newest, shiniest, killiest main VFs available.  Especially as a research fleet with some heavy hitter corporate sponsorship behind it.  The novelization of Macross Frontier indicates it was sponsored by defense industry giant Critical Path.

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1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

.. all none of them?  Remember, Frontier-era and later materials indicate the VF-19 was never adopted as a main fighter due to export restrictions placed on them in the wake of the Sharon Apple incident, the high initial and operating costs, and the control difficulties that led to loss-of-control accidents and crashes during the initial attempts to adopt the VF-19 by the central New UN Forces.  It would not have been possible to have the VF-19 become a main fighter for an entire emigrant fleet.

Dengeki  Hobby article on it says Plan Fire was a rival to the YF-24 Plan in the Macross 7 Fleet. Thanks to Sketchley for the translation.

Quote

VF-19A Excalibur
The race model that the Shinsei Industry Frontier Fleet Branch Office released for Vanquish use.  When the company put this machine into Vanquish in 2056, it invited a storm of criticism as it was assumed that the company was achieving victory by the force of the power of money.
Even though the base of the airframe is the VF-19A which is the mass-produced type of YF-19, in practise, it is influenced by the data of the C and P types.  It was operated as a rival candidate of the YF-24 Evolution Plan [Project] in the Macross 7 Fleet; and though it is not certain, there is a theory that this was one of the airframes that was trial made for the VF-19 update plan "Fire", which was diverted for race use.

The VF-19A from Macross was based on the VF-19C and VF-19P data. The complaint about it is that Shinsei is using cutting edge tech in a Race as a test bed for their product. Again thanks to Sketchley for the translation.

Quote

 


VF-19A Excalibur
An aircraft that the Shinsei Industry Frontier Fleet Branch's Works Team developed. It is the favourite aircraft of "One-Armed Aegis" Oscar Brauchitsch, who belongs to that team. It is an aircraft based on the VF-19A that implements the data from such aircraft as the VF-19C and VF-19P. There is a rumour that it is the improved VF-19 prototype that was operated by the Macross 7 Fleet, put to use in the races.

 

Ignoring Master File which isn't meant to be considered main canon. Macross 7 can either go for the VF-19 or VF-25. Though I see the VF-19 as far more economical due to the Fold Quartz issue. 

What is an export banned is the particular model of VF-19A fielded by Earth. 

 

Edited by RedWolf
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1 hour ago, RedWolf said:

Dengeki  Hobby article on it says Plan Fire was a rival to the YF-24 Plan in the Macross 7 Fleet. Thanks to Sketchley for the translation.

Just FYI, that's not actually a new detail.

Great Mechanics DX had previously mentioned that the idea of upgrading the VF-19 with EX-Gear and an Inertia Store Converter was entertained as an alternative proposal to the YF-24 program.  It's noted that the idea was discarded for various economic and practical reasons.  It's also noted therein that the VF-19 never achieved a widespread adoption to replace the VF-11 and was relegated to the de facto status of a special forces Valkyrie.

 

1 hour ago, RedWolf said:

The VF-19A from Macross was based on the VF-19C and VF-19P data. The complaint about it is that Shinsei is using cutting edge tech in a Race as a test bed for their product. Again thanks to Sketchley for the translation.

I'm aware... you're referring to Oscar Brauhitch's VF-19A Custom for Team Shinsei.

It's worth noting that what you're referring to is explicitly presented as a theory about the origins of Oscar Brauhitch's aircraft, not a fact.  If the Macross 7 fleet was holding up the VF-19 as a possible alternative to the YF-24, that screams "set up to fail" given that the VF-19A in question lacks any of the proposed upgrades to address the fact that it was still an unflyable monster to the average pilot.  So much so that it's repeatedly referred to as a craft that choses its pilot.  That theory doesn't say anything about the Macross 7 fleet's New UN Forces adopting the VF-19, just that it was considered as an alternative.  Apparently one that was not selected, given that later material indicates the Macross 7 fleet got the VF-25 in the end.

 

1 hour ago, RedWolf said:

Ignoring Master File which isn't meant to be considered main canon. Macross 7 can either go for the VF-19 or VF-25. Though I see the VF-19 as far more economical due to the Fold Quartz issue. 

That doesn't do anything to shift aside the Macross Frontier movie novelization also indicating the Macross 7 fleet adopted the VF-25.

The only official answer to the question thus far is "VF-25".

Mind you, you ignored one critical problem.  The fix for the VF-19's performance exceeding human tolerances is adoption of EX-Gear and an Inertia Store Converter.  Without those improvements, the VF-19's own performance effectively restricts its use to a small number of elite pilots able to handle its excessive specs.  The essential material needed to build an Inertia Store Converter to make it accessible to average pilots is... wait for it... fold quartz.  Even then, its performance is only about half that of a 5th Generation Valkyrie's.  Plus it lacks maintenance-friendly improvements like linear actuators, and needs structural reinforcement to use anti-Vajra weapons (as noted in Macross R).

 

1 hour ago, RedWolf said:

What is an export banned is the particular model of VF-19A fielded by Earth. 

The remarks about the export restrictions to emigrant governments aren't specific to one variant in all but one case.

The one exception being Macross R, where it is specifically mentioned the Caliburn is a monkey model due to the New UN Gov't's reluctance to export the E spec.

It is, however, repeatedly indicated that the number of VF-19s produced was small and that it never became a main variable fighter due to the New UN Government's reluctance to and/or restrictions on exports to emigrant governments, the high initial and operating costs, and its own performance making it a craft that most pilots could not handle.

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18 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Technically, the Defender IS a General Galaxy unit... General Galaxy was formed by a merger of the overtechnology research institute and manufacturing multinational OTEC and a number of other companies like Centinental, Viggers, etc. that made things like Destroids.

Oh, so Shinsei Industry wasn't the only company that was formed through merging. Considering how General Galaxy is involved with a lot of the more "bulkier" looking variable fighters I'm not surprised companies that made the Destroids were apart of it.

 

18 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

he Macross Galaxy Corporate Army in Macross R uses the VF-171 Nightmare Plus as standard and one of their special forces units (Pegasus Squadron) uses a Galaxy-produced "improved" model VF-19C to flex on Shinsei Industry, but in the Macross Frontier novelization their forces also include squadrons made up of refurbished older General Galaxy VFs including VF-9s and a new variant of VF-17 designated VF-17F.

I'm assuming the VF-9's and VF-17F's were not as great as Galaxy had hoped?

 

18 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

That'd likely have to be an emigrant fleet composed entirely of Zentradi like Macross 5 was... but the logistics inherent in keeping giant Zentradi around make it problematic at best, and Frontier was considered somewhat weird for the grandiose display of having a giant Zentradi community aboard (for tourism purposes).

So the foot soldiers and battlesuit/battlepod users we see in Frontier and Delta would be a minority in colony and emigrant fleet defense forces for the most part, I'm assuming? If that's the case I would assume there wouldn't be a lot of miclonization machines laying around for a sortie. In 7 we also see the likes of Veffidas (prior to Fire Bomber) and Emilia being giant around, but again, seems to be the minority.

 

15 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It is, however, repeatedly indicated that the number of VF-19s produced was small and that it never became a main variable fighter due to the New UN Government's reluctance to and/or restrictions on exports to emigrant governments, the high initial and operating costs, and its own performance making it a craft that most pilots could not handle.

All the talk about certain fleets making VF-19's economical make me think even if it was actually accomplished it'd be way too late, even more so then the VF-19F's existence. (Probably if 7th generation Valkyries become a thing, lol.)

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2 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Oh, so Shinsei Industry wasn't the only company that was formed through merging. Considering how General Galaxy is involved with a lot of the more "bulkier" looking variable fighters I'm not surprised companies that made the Destroids were apart of it.

Yeah.  This first happened in the Macross II timeline, where after the First Space War the surviving elements of Stonewell, Bellcom, Shinnakasu, and various others merged into the dominant player in the VF market in that timeline: the Takachihoff Corp.  (Named after in-universe character Dr. H. Takachihoff, who was named in honor of Studio Nue cofounder and Crusher Joe and Dirty Pair creator Haruka Takachiho/Kimiyoshi Takekawa.

Macross Plus later established that the same thing happened in the main timeline, with Stonewell, Bellcom, and Shinnakasu merging to form Shinsei Industry in 2012 and OTEC merging with the various destroid manufacturers to form General Galaxy in 2017.

 

2 hours ago, TG Remix said:

I'm assuming the VF-9's and VF-17F's were not as great as Galaxy had hoped?

They didn't do great, but then neither did the VF-171s.

 

2 hours ago, TG Remix said:

So the foot soldiers and battlesuit/battlepod users we see in Frontier and Delta would be a minority in colony and emigrant fleet defense forces for the most part, I'm assuming? If that's the case I would assume there wouldn't be a lot of miclonization machines laying around for a sortie. In 7 we also see the likes of Veffidas (prior to Fire Bomber) and Emilia being giant around, but again, seems to be the minority.

The New UN Forces have their own separate units for Zentradi who prefer to live as giants, like the 33rd Marines in Macross Frontier.

Veffidas was living planetside, though that was presumably before the ban on giant Zentradi on Earth came down at the end of 2030.  Emilia's living on a remote planet that doesn't seem to have any strict laws against living as a giant, but the local populace are still afraid of her.

 

2 hours ago, TG Remix said:

All the talk about certain fleets making VF-19's economical make me think even if it was actually accomplished it'd be way too late, even more so then the VF-19F's existence. (Probably if 7th generation Valkyries become a thing, lol.)

Shinsei Industry was barking up that tree on and off for about twenty years, with various efforts to make the VF-19 actually-flyable by normal pilots.  They don't seem to have ever achieved success in that regard and moved on to the YF-24 program and its derivatives.

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24 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Shinsei Industry was barking up that tree on and off for about twenty years, with various efforts to make the VF-19 actually-flyable by normal pilots.  They don't seem to have ever achieved success in that regard and moved on to the YF-24 program and its derivatives.

I wonder if anyone ever floated the idea of putting a limited AI like the Ghost inside a VF-19?

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6 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

I wonder if anyone ever floated the idea of putting a limited AI like the Ghost inside a VF-19?

With the exception of the unmanned VF-11's the X-9 shot down it seems like Ghost Fighters usually are made to be non-transformable variable craft.

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29 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

I wonder if anyone ever floated the idea of putting a limited AI like the Ghost inside a VF-19?

Someone did it with the X-9's AI and an upgraded Variable Glaug.

Maybe that concept was another casualty of the Sharon Apple incident.

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On 6/20/2022 at 11:56 AM, Seto Kaiba said:

Someone did it with the X-9's AI and an upgraded Variable Glaug.

Maybe that concept was another casualty of the Sharon Apple incident.

Perhaps indeed.

On another note: I just wanted to post a link to the work of Oiltech Industries in another part of the forum here; his CGI work on the VF-1 has just been outstanding:

His fidelity to the original artwork in combo with the realism he's put into his work is truly something to behold! I just wanted you folks to see (if you haven't already) the effort in both research and rendering Oiltech's been doing! He really deserves more credit and attention that he;s been getting lately.

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Here's a question, if the Marduk from M II lovers again were worked into Big West's timeline...how would a colony world or Earth fair?  I'm aware that they have emulators which would make the effects of the Minmay attack be moot.....also this was kind of replicated with Sheryl vs Ranka in the last two episodes of Frontier when Ranka's song over road hers.   

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47 minutes ago, darkranger12 said:

Here's a question, if the Marduk from M II lovers again were worked into Big West's timeline...how would a colony world or Earth fair?  I'm aware that they have emulators which would make the effects of the Minmay attack be moot.....also this was kind of replicated with Sheryl vs Ranka in the last two episodes of Frontier when Ranka's song over road hers.   

TBH, I'm not sure.

Macross II's setting plays by rather different rules.  The Mardook were an overwhelmingly powerful foe to the UN Forces in Macross II because they were effectively immune to the Minmay Attack, meaning there was nothing stopping them from pressing the advantage of their superior technology and overwhelming numbers.  Ingues's mobile fortress tanked hits from firepower far exceeding what a Battle-class can produce as well.  I don't think a typical emigrant planet would have much chance against them simply because they have such a huge numerical advantage, which is not appreciably a different situation from just being attacked by a Zentradi main fleet.  We don't have any real idea what Earth's actual offensive capabilities are in the main timeline beyond "really really good", so it's impossible to say.  They've never had to face a second main fleet in their timeline the way that the UN Forces in Macross II have done.

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34 minutes ago, Bolt said:

On that note, as far as we know, isn't the Marduk we see in Lover's Again the only Marduk fleet? That we know of..

No other Mardook fleets are ever mentioned.

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The Mardook fleet is what 2,000 or 3000 ships? Hence the confidence of  UN Spacy given their fleet and Macross Cannons. That is overconfidence though. Sylvie was trying to warn the brass not to be too reliant on the Minmay Defense as there is no guarantee it will always work. 

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11 hours ago, RedWolf said:

The Mardook fleet is what 2,000 or 3000 ships? Hence the confidence of  UN Spacy given their fleet and Macross Cannons. That is overconfidence though. Sylvie was trying to warn the brass not to be too reliant on the Minmay Defense as there is no guarantee it will always work. 

It is never established how large the actual Mardook main fleet is.  It's implied to be on par with a Zentradi main fleet and echoes the visual presentation of Boddole Zer's main fleet from DYRL very blatantly.

The first scouting force the UN Spacy encounters when they defold near Mars is a 30 ship taskforce.  Thereafter, the UN Spacy fights a series of branch fleet-sized forces indicated to be ~1,300 ships strong.  The Mardook replace them pretty casually throughout.  When the Macross Cannons destroy about 800 ships in a single shot in "Station Break", another even larger force immediately defolds into the combat area to replace that branch fleet while the main fleet is chilling out near what appears to be Saturn.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I've noticed a bit of a trend. It seems like giant Zentradi use mechs such as the Queadluun-Rau and the Neo Glaug bis are usually primarily used by NUNS Marines (Such as the 33rd Battalion in Frontier, and I think the 10th Assault Battalion in Delta) then any other branch of the NUNS. How come there's a correlation between giant Zentradi and the Marines? And what is the extent of the roles and purpose the NUNS Marines have overall, if the franchise ever went in such detail?

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1 hour ago, TG Remix said:

I've noticed a bit of a trend. It seems like giant Zentradi use mechs such as the Queadluun-Rau and the Neo Glaug bis are usually primarily used by NUNS Marines (Such as the 33rd Battalion in Frontier, and I think the 10th Assault Battalion in Delta) then any other branch of the NUNS. How come there's a correlation between giant Zentradi and the Marines? And what is the extent of the roles and purpose the NUNS Marines have overall, if the franchise ever went in such detail?

To the best of my knowledge, it has never really been explained why the few all-Zentradi units we see fall under the header of the New UN Spacy Marine Corps.  

If I had to make a guess, I'd say it's probably because their ships routinely carry assault landers for things like battlepods even though the Zentradi as a whole seldom actually fight planetside.  It's worth noting that the Spacy Marines existed in the lore for over a decade before Macross Frontier introduced the all-Zentradi 33rd Marines, and their few described units prior to that point were Valkyrie squadrons.

Similarly, while the relationship between the four branches of the planetary forces is reasonably well understood because of their modern parallels (Army, Air Force, Navy, and Marines) the three branches of the Space Forces are more ill-defined.  The Spacy is the fleet-based force we're so familiar with, while the Spacy Air Force appears to be a space-based aviation branch is for some reason distinct from the Spacy's own flying corps and the Spacy Marines appear to be space-based infantry of some description but it isn't all that clear.

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On 7/14/2022 at 11:01 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

If I had to make a guess, I'd say it's probably because their ships routinely carry assault landers for things like battlepods even though the Zentradi as a whole seldom actually fight planetside.  It's worth noting that the Spacy Marines existed in the lore for over a decade before Macross Frontier introduced the all-Zentradi 33rd Marines, and their few described units prior to that point were Valkyrie squadrons.

Right, those were from THIS IS ANIMATION SPECIAL - Macross Plus, weren't they? The one that comes to mind was the VF-4's Blue Phoenix squadron/platoon had.

My guess would be that, if going with Frontier's 33rd Marines, can operate away close to civilization in case they turn and become one of many anti-government Zentradi. Though that kinda falls flat considering what the Marines from Al Shahal got a bit too close to civilians once the Var infected them, but they seemed more laid back compared to Temujin and his cronies, and the situation wasn't their fault anyways. There's also the Zentradi-only colonies to factor and they definitely can't all be marines. 🤪

 

Speaking of Al Shahal, I know it's aesthetic was based off references from Dubai, though I can't help but think about how many other colony planets might be mainly desert environments; considering Class-A habitable planets appear once and a blue moon and colony fleets basically work with that they got until they can't.

 

On 7/14/2022 at 11:01 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

while the Spacy Air Force appears to be a space-based aviation branch is for some reason distinct from the Spacy's own flying corps

I assume the UNSAF existence is that they can operate both in the atmosphere and in space. I kinda assume they are what we saw in SDF and 7 since the military's forces were flexible enough to do both.

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2 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Right, those were from THIS IS ANIMATION SPECIAL - Macross Plus, weren't they? The one that comes to mind was the VF-4's Blue Phoenix squadron/platoon had.

Yeah, there are several UN Spacy Marine Corps aircraft in Variable Fighters Aero Report in the back of that book.

 

2 hours ago, TG Remix said:

My guess would be that, if going with Frontier's 33rd Marines, can operate away close to civilization in case they turn and become one of many anti-government Zentradi.

Frontier more or less states outright that the NUNS 33rd Marines was a unit specifically set up as containment for Zentradi soldiers with a history of discipline problems.  Assigning the unit to garrison duty on a planet on the arse end of nowhere was presumably an additional containment strategy.  (Characters who'd previously been depicted in the 33rd appear in the Frontier movies as inmates at Alcatraz prison, suggesting they were similarly problematic in that version of the story.)

 

2 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Though that kinda falls flat considering what the Marines from Al Shahal got a bit too close to civilians once the Var infected them, but they seemed more laid back compared to Temujin and his cronies, and the situation wasn't their fault anyways. There's also the Zentradi-only colonies to factor and they definitely can't all be marines. 🤪

Presumably the Zentradi marines on Al Shahal were a unit with a much better disciplinary record given that they were based directly in a major city.

Preferring a lifestyle of military discipline doesn't necessarily mean that they're also one step from becoming terrorists.  

 

2 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Speaking of Al Shahal, I know it's aesthetic was based off references from Dubai, though I can't help but think about how many other colony planets might be mainly desert environments; considering Class-A habitable planets appear once and a blue moon and colony fleets basically work with that they got until they can't.

Bucking the standard sci-fi trope, most emigrant planets in Macross are not depicted as single-biome planets.  There are worlds that have deserts, but Al Shahal is the first that we've seen that has had only deserts depicted so far.  Even then, I'd wager there's more diverse terrain on the planet and that the desert locale was simply the area with best access to key resources or the area most conducive to landing an emigrant ship.  (A significant part of Macross 30's story takes place in a desert region on Uroboros, for instance.)

 

2 hours ago, TG Remix said:

I assume the UNSAF existence is that they can operate both in the atmosphere and in space. I kinda assume they are what we saw in SDF and 7 since the military's forces were flexible enough to do both.

As far as we know, the only explicit appearance by the UNSAF was in Macross Plus.  The only other explicit appearance I recall for the UNSAF is in Macross R, with Macross Galaxy Corporate Army's 3rd Combat Air Wing 8th Tactical Fighter Squadron "Pegasus".

Almost all of the squadrons actually seen onscreen are carrier-based units belonging to the Spacy.  (Despite not being a "Space Navy", the Spacy's squadrons use US Navy-inspired squadron designations that mark them out as different from the Air Force and Marine Corps units which use designations modeled on those branches of the US armed forces.)

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  • 2 weeks later...
1 hour ago, darkranger12 said:

Okay so....I know fold carbon is used to make fold drives and the engines for variable fighters but what do the ships run on? I know the variable fighters run on a cryogenic slurry of hydrogen gas.

Assuming the Macross runs on fusion, probably the same slush as the fighters.

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1 hour ago, darkranger12 said:

Okay so....I know fold carbon is used to make fold drives and the engines for variable fighters but what do the ships run on? I know the variable fighters run on a cryogenic slurry of hydrogen gas.

2 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

Assuming the Macross runs on fusion, probably the same slush as the fighters.

Fold carbon is used to make the Gravity and Inertia Control (GIC) systems that is the core component of Overtechnology-based thermonuclear reactors.  The GIC system produces the ultra-high mass exotic matter called heavy quantum and the fold waves that manipulate it to produce the artificial gravity the reactor uses to compress the fuel and confine the plasma produced by the fusion reaction the compression triggers.  This is one of the things that makes OTM thermonuclear reactors so efficient.

We haven't been told what fuel is used in shipboard thermonuclear reactors, but given that elemental hydrogen is the most plentiful resource in the universe it seems likely that it's also the fuel of choice for ships.  

(The use of Gravity and Inertia Control for fuel compression and confinement is acknowledged to allow the reactors to use a variety of different substances as fuel beyond those considered viable in pre-OTM theoretical fusion studies, but hydrogen seems to be the fuel of choice due to its abundance and ease of manufacture.)

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On 7/18/2022 at 12:16 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

Presumably the Zentradi marines on Al Shahal were a unit with a much better disciplinary record given that they were based directly in a major city.

Preferring a lifestyle of military discipline doesn't necessarily mean that they're also one step from becoming terrorists.  

Right, that's absolutely fair. Does make me wonder if NUNS Marines doing regular garrison work is somewhat common, or that can be filled by any branch of the New UN military.

 

Speaking of Zentradi-only affairs, I wonder when and why mostly/only Zentrad colony fleets and planets came to be. Not from the anti-Earth Zentradi emigrant ships that peaced out in 2031, but talking more in lines like the Macross 5 fleet. It'd be less conspicuous if they were just coincidences, since it's not a stretch at all to assume there's a lot more human-only colonies in the galaxy. But considering there's specifically Zentradi tailored variable craft and ships at a point Overtechnology was being utilized everywhere by the 2nd generation Valkyries, it just makes me curious to think why they're made to be so obvious.

 

On 7/18/2022 at 12:16 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

Bucking the standard sci-fi trope, most emigrant planets in Macross are not depicted as single-biome planets.  There are worlds that have deserts, but Al Shahal is the first that we've seen that has had only deserts depicted so far.  Even then, I'd wager there's more diverse terrain on the planet and that the desert locale was simply the area with best access to key resources or the area most conducive to landing an emigrant ship.  (A significant part of Macross 30's story takes place in a desert region on Uroboros, for instance.)

It does feel like the other single-biome planets like Varauta IV, Gallia IV, and the other icy-planet in 7 seem like the exceptions to the rule; at least in the sense of that they're breathable but not exactly habitable per se. It would make sense, considering the desert and ocean (as Eden and Ragna shows) that it's the best place to begin a colony.

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5 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Right, that's absolutely fair. Does make me wonder if NUNS Marines doing regular garrison work is somewhat common, or that can be filled by any branch of the New UN military.

Well, I guess that depends how you want to define "garrison".

If the laundry list of potential reassignments Isamu's CO threatened him with at the start of Macross Plus is any indication, the various branches of the New UN Forces have quite a few dead-end postings at various resource stations and other remote bases that they can send the troops they feel would be least missed to.  Since the New UN Forces are implied (by Isamu's service record) to have inter-branch mobility more akin to the JSDF, it's possible such postings could come with a transfer to a different branch of service if necessary for logistical purposes.  (Isamu has served stints aboard Spacy warships, Navy warships, and at Spacy Air Force bases thanks to his being "regifted" to other postings more often than an especially undesirable fruitcake.)

 

5 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Speaking of Zentradi-only affairs, I wonder when and why mostly/only Zentrad colony fleets and planets came to be. Not from the anti-Earth Zentradi emigrant ships that peaced out in 2031, but talking more in lines like the Macross 5 fleet. It'd be less conspicuous if they were just coincidences, since it's not a stretch at all to assume there's a lot more human-only colonies in the galaxy. But considering there's specifically Zentradi tailored variable craft and ships at a point Overtechnology was being utilized everywhere by the 2nd generation Valkyries, it just makes me curious to think why they're made to be so obvious.

Macross-5 is the only fleet of that type to be depicted or properly described to date.  One would assume that it's a reaction to the New UN Government's crackdown on having full size Zentradi on Earth after the major rebellion at the end of the 2020s that ended in yet another attack on Macross City and the destruction of several emigrant ships being built over at the factory satellite.

 

5 hours ago, TG Remix said:

It does feel like the other single-biome planets like Varauta IV, Gallia IV, and the other icy-planet in 7 seem like the exceptions to the rule; at least in the sense of that they're breathable but not exactly habitable per se. It would make sense, considering the desert and ocean (as Eden and Ragna shows) that it's the best place to begin a colony.

Gallia IV's not a single biome planet... we just only ever seen one very small region of the planet immediately around the wreck of the SDFN-04 General Bruno J. Global.

Varauta 3198XE's fourth planet, well, that's not a natural phenomena.  That's a direct product of the ancient Protoculture setting up an entropy control field to make the planet an uninhabitable iceball so that nobody would try to live there and accidentally dig the Protodeviln up.

The planet in the Macross 7 movie was not quite a single biome planet, but it was a pretty tedious place to live that was mainly inhabited for the resources it offered.

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