Valk Designs

[Mr March]

So then if you think about it, Brera was pretty much saved by his valk in episode 9. If he were in any other valk (than a VF-27), Alto taking his leg off would have been a bigger problem for him.

Not necessarily. Alto's VF-25F lost a leg against the Vajra, but Alto managed to keep fighting in spite of the loss. Twin engine designs are actually fairly robust and have natural redundancy by virtue of their pairing. Losing an engine/leg is never good, but it's clear a Valkyrie can still function effectively on a single engine.

But in the case of the VF-27, the statistics confirm it has four main engines, which is definitely less common for a Valkyrie. Like the YF-21, the VF-27 could actually lose both legs and still maintain a fairly impressive level of performance. Keep in mind that once the legs are gone, so is a rather large amount of weight. Though Brera lost a lot of power and thrust by losing a leg, he also lost a lot of weight when the leg was gone, so there was a bit of an upside as well.

[d3v]

Hmm, good point.

I wonder though, does the Super Pack for the VF-25 have it's own smaller engines as well? Or do they draw from the two main engines.

[Mr March]

It looks like the VF-25 Super Packs have boosters like all the other Super Packs. I don't think they are power generating engines, but they are definitely high performance boosters capable of producing far more thrust than the engines.

On the issue of Super Packs, I really wish Kawamori and Co would publish statistics for the Super Packs. We've been without official stats on the Super Parts/Packs for nearly 25 years. Last time we saw statistics for the Super variants was for the VF-1 Valkyrie. Given that the old VF-1 Valkyre Super Boosters added a whopping 120,000 kg of thrust, I'd be really curious to obtain figures for the other sets. The VF-1 super packs boosted the Valkyrie's thrust-to-weight ratio from an already high 2.49 to an amazing 6.36. I'd like to know how the VF-11, VF-17, VF-19 and VF-25 all perform with Super Packs. We know they greatly enhance acceleration, but I want the hard cold figures in my fanboy hands

[Morpheus]

It looks like the VF-25 Super Packs have boosters like all the other Super Packs. I don't think they are power generating engines, but they are definitely high performance boosters capable of producing far more thrust than the engines.

On the issue of Super Packs, I really wish Kawamori and Co would publish statistics for the Super Packs. We've been without official stats on the Super Parts/Packs for nearly 25 years. Last time we saw statistics for the Super variants was for the VF-1 Valkyrie. Given that the old VF-1 Valkyre Super Boosters added a whopping 120,000 kg of thrust, I'd be really curious to obtain figures for the other sets. The VF-1 super packs boosted the Valkyrie's thrust-to-weight ratio from an already high 2.49 to an amazing 6.36. I'd like to know how the VF-11, VF-17, VF-19 and VF-25 all perform with Super Packs. We know they greatly enhance acceleration, but I want the hard cold figures in my fanboy hands

Didn't the original YF-19/YF-21 can only be fitted with augmentation part since their engines already give much thrust?

If the super pack on VF-25 does give more thrust, is it possible to be more powerful than VF-27 (AFAIK doesn't have SUPER packs).

[Mr March]

The VF-19 Excalibur had Super Parts; the big blue Atmosphere ones seen in Macross 7. It's likely the YF-19/YF-21 only used smaller FAST Packs because they were prototypes only. Or it could be because their engines were so advanced, Super parts weren't a priority until years later.

The Super systems definitely give far more thrust. What would be the point of those huge boosters on the VF-11 Super, VF-17 Super and VF-25 Super if they didn't add much greater thrust? Besides, we fortunately have the VF-1 Super as a benchmark, which has 46,000kg of thrust on it's own, but 286,000kg of thrust when in Super mode. I'm not sure if the new Super boosters add as much thrust as the old VF-1 parts. The newer packs are smaller and the newer Valkyries already enjoy much greater thrust because they are a) lighter vehicles and b) already have far more powerful engines. Even so, I'd say it's likely the VF-25 Super at least matches or exceeds the VF-27.

[SchizophrenicMC]

Didn't the original YF-19/YF-21 can only be fitted with augmentation part since their engines already give much thrust?

If the super pack on VF-25 does give more thrust, is it possible to be more powerful than VF-27 (AFAIK doesn't have SUPER packs).

My idea: The 25 is faster, but the 27 is more maneuverable.

So, you own the M3... Mr March's Macross Mecha Manual... That's an M5!

A Valk could survive in space with its legs blown off, just as long as if they hadn't been. In an atmosphere, I reckon you have enough power to emergency land. Speaking of the "Backpack" Thruster, where is that on the 25? I see no thruster.

The arms are probably even ejectable. Similar to the VF-0 Super Pack. I'd like to see that, actually.

The 4 engine design of the VF-27 means that if it loses its legs, it's performance is hindered, but it still outperforms any other valk with no legs. (Hypothetically, a FAST Pack equipped VF could still work, legless, though the VF-1's was unusable in an atmosphere...)

[azrael]

My idea: The 25 is faster, but the 27 is more maneuverable.

The VF-27 is actually faster. It can pull Mach 5.2+; Mach 9+ with PPB and ECA help. The VF-25 tops out around Mach 5+.

Speaking of the "Backpack" Thruster, where is that on the 25? I see no thruster.

Circled in red.

[SchizophrenicMC]

The VF-27 is actually faster. It can pull Mach 5.2+; Mach 9+ with PPB and ECA help. The VF-25 tops out around Mach 5+.

Circled in red.

Those are smaller than a VF-1's!

So, why is it that even in space, Battroids are slower? The engines are still producing the same amount of thrust, it's now got a backpack thruster, and there's no aerodynamic disturbance. It seems to me that transforming if your current mode is the same speed, and is more easily controlled, is a waste of time... Please enlighten me....

[d3v]

So, you own the M3... Mr March's Macross Mecha Manual... That's an M5!

Sp basically you're saying that he should upgrade from a 2 door, 8 cylinder german sports sedan to a 4-door 10-cylinder german sports sedan?

My idea: The 25 is faster, but the 27 is more maneuverable.

The VF-27 is actually faster. It can pull Mach 5.2+; Mach 9+ with PPB and ECA help. The VF-25 tops out around Mach 5+.

Interesting, in their dogfight in episode 9, Alto was pretty much keeping pace with Brera despite the latter pulling away at points. Off course, those Mach numbers are clearly in atmosphere speeds (set at 30,000 m or something) so speed in space is a different matter altogether.

[taksraven]

Not necessarily. Alto's VF-25F lost a leg against the Vajra, but Alto managed to keep fighting in spite of the loss. Twin engine designs are actually fairly robust and have natural redundancy by virtue of their pairing. Losing an engine/leg is never good, but it's clear a Valkyrie can still function effectively on a single engine.

That argument also carries over into the real world. Its especially true with the F-16. Who would want to fly it, a jet fighter with a single engine. One flame out at a critical moment and you could be really stuffed.

Taksraven

[SchizophrenicMC]

Yes! How'd you know? He does need to do that... You heard us! Upgrade, March! It'll save you in the long run!

So, basically, the VF-27 is a God Mech? If it's got the speed and the maneuverability, how come Alto could damage it?

Flame-out on an F-16 is a death warrant. I guess that's the cost of being comparatively cheap. The F-14 was better than that...

[ChronoReverse]

The VF-27 is actually faster. It can pull Mach 5.2+; Mach 9+ with PPB and ECA help. The VF-25 tops out around Mach 5+.

Weren't those numbers for the plain machines though? I recall the thrust for the VF-25 as 2x<some number> whereas the VF-27 had 4x<a smaller number> where the total of the VF-27 was much higher. Since it's "2x" for the VF-25, that's just the two main engines and doesn't take into account the FAST packs.

Of course, the FAST packs seem to be space use only so the Mach numbers don't even apply.

Edited October 16, 2008 by ChronoReverse

[Morpheus]

The VF-27 is actually faster. It can pull Mach 5.2+; Mach 9+ with PPB and ECA help. The VF-25 tops out around Mach 5+.

That would be the speed limit on atmosphere, in space I think VF-25 should be nearly equal with VF-27 when its equipped with SUPER pack, the main problem I think is the pilot endurance to resist the stress when piloting the VF-25 to its peak performance.

My theory on newer generation of FAST pack is the engine has been compacted and it carried less fuel, so they got more room for weapons.

BTW, I forgot, but someone actually counted the number of missiles on the VF-25 SUPER pack.

It would be interesting if Mr.March put the statistic of all the FAST pack unit on a single page so we can compare one to another. I think the old Dave Deitrich site got one RPG page for all the FAST pack stat.

[anime52k8]

Those are smaller than a VF-1's!

So, why is it that even in space, Battroids are slower? The engines are still producing the same amount of thrust, it's now got a backpack thruster, and there's no aerodynamic disturbance. It seems to me that transforming if your current mode is the same speed, and is more easily controlled, is a waste of time... Please enlighten me....

depending on what mode you're in you can utalize different weapons more effectively, and you probably have the mech's vainer thrusters better positioned in fighter mode allowing for better maneuverability.

real reason, because if they spent all their time flying around in battroid mode and didn't constantly transform, it would be Gundam.

Yes! How'd you know? He does need to do that... You heard us! Upgrade, March! It'll save you in the long run!

So, basically, the VF-27 is a God Mech? If it's got the speed and the maneuverability, how come Alto could damage it?

alto in a VF-25 could beat brera in a VF-27 because he's the hero. the only weakness the VF-27 has is that it isn't a hero mech and therefore automatically vulnerable.

Flame-out on an F-16 is a death warrant. I guess that's the cost of being comparatively cheap. The F-14 was better than that...

not necessarily, if you've got enough altitude you can try and re-light the engine

[d3v]

not necessarily, if you've got enough altitude you can try and re-light the engine

Or pull that little yellow+black lever in between your legs.

[azrael]

Weren't those numbers for the plain machines though? I recall the thrust for the VF-25 as 2x<some number> whereas the VF-27 had 4x<a smaller number> where the total of the VF-27 was much higher. Since it's "2x" for the VF-25, that's just the two main engines and doesn't take into account the FAST packs.

Of course, the FAST packs seem to be space use only so the Mach numbers don't even apply.

Well, in space, fuel is an issue since they don't have air as a propellant.

[Morpheus]

Well, in space, fuel is an issue since they don't have air as a propellant.

I remember on SDF:M, Kakizaki valk got hit on the nose cone, and its leaking something (fuel? oil?).

[daflip702]

Eh...I'm just frustrated digging through tons of threads to find bit of pieces of info...that's why we need a A "Important" Technology thread upon different aspects in one place....now ain't that a little more easier folks?

Alright down to business.

1. I don't think the Ex-gear has anything to do with reducing G-forces in a Valk...I concur this from the Ex-Gear colapsing inside the cockpit and removes itself from the wearer, am I the only one who caught that?. The truth is in the flight suit/cockpit....they already got flight suits that reduce G stress today. the Ex-Gear is just a suped up ejection seat.

2. An anti-gravity zero G device in a valk would hinder a pilot's skill due to the lack of feedback the Valk gives the pilot. it's like driving a car without feeling acceleration, deceleration, side to side movements in turns etc. etc. someone once told me....when you drive for the first time you're just driving a car....when you get experience, the car becomes an extension of yourself.

3. I think Battroid mode flys slower due to the structure of the engines being divided in to segments....not just one flush piece. Remember now kiddies, when air flows....it doesn't like to bend in different directions. Venier thrusters manuever the Valk, NOT to add boost to augment main thrust.

4. Even with ThermoNuc. engines....there must be a some sort "fuel" type to propel the valks. The structure of the Valkyrie cannot handle kinetic explosions that a reactor can produce nor sustain. Those type of reactors are better suited to produce high amounts of heat to then combine with different components to turn into kinetic energy....atleast that's how the modern world does it.

5. Starscream was a popular character in "robotic" cartoons....he had the canopy in the front and that design worked.....why not for a valk. i think the transformations were just designs that SK played around with. Change is good....and bad.

6. I don't like the design of the 21. How can it hover in gerwalk when the main engines are mounted on the torso facing rear?....and please don't tell me venier thrusters on the feet because that's just redundant. Oh yeah....vectoring wouldn't work either.

7. Alto is the first Macross gay/cross dressing hero.....man that's tuff

and there you go....

[d3v]

We're speculating that the EX-gear has something to do with helping the pilot fight heavy g-loads due to something being mentioned in the series that implies that. If we try to apply IRL logic, it's probably in the flight suit they use which could be an integral part of the military grade EX-gear system.

Actually, a simpler explanation for the Battroid flying slower is that if it did push full thrust, it wouldn't really fly straight, what with the engines being in the legs - the valk would probably get bent out of shape in weird poses.

As for the YF-21/VF-22, it has a set of folding underfuselage slits to provide downward thrust in gerwalk mode (taken from the Compendium).

[daflip702]

We're speculating that the EX-gear has something to do with helping the pilot fight heavy g-loads due to something being mentioned in the series that implies that. If we try to apply IRL logic, it's probably in the flight suit they use which could be an integral part of the military grade EX-gear system.

Actually, a simpler explanation for the Battroid flying slower is that if it did push full thrust, it wouldn't really fly straight, what with the engines being in the legs - the valk would probably get bent out of shape in weird poses.

As for the YF-21/VF-22, it has a set of folding underfuselage slits to provide downward thrust in gerwalk mode (taken from the Compendium).

I do recall somewhere (dunno exactly) where it was mentioned....but maybe perhaps they were referring for use outside the valk...i.e. flight.

If the 21 uses those slits....wouldn't that be hard on the legs? not to mention the legs obstructing the thrust?

So is this compendium legit....approved by SK?Big West?

Edited October 16, 2008 by daflip702

[d3v]

I do recall somewhere (dunno exactly) where it was mentioned....but maybe perhaps they were referring for use outside the valk...i.e. flight.

If the 21 uses those slits....wouldn't that be hard on the legs? not to mention the legs obstructing the thrust?

So is this compendium legit....approved by SK?Big West?

The slits are closed in Fighter and Battroid mode.

As for the compendium, it's as close to an actual official english source that we have, and I do believe it has been acknowledged by either SK or Big West.

[daflip702]

The slits are closed in Fighter and Battroid mode.

As for the compendium, it's as close to an actual official english source that we have, and I do believe it has been acknowledged by either SK or Big West.

thanks for the info dv3, but uh...i'm referring to gerwalk mode still.

I looked at the compendium before....but was skeptical about it's info because I didn't know about it's authenticity. I got horror stories from the MacII RPG books.....looks like fan fiction to me. Oh well it was the closet thing for technical data on the series....and my 2nd fav Valk design, the Metal Siren.

[d3v]

thanks for the info dv3, but uh...i'm referring to gerwalk mode still.

With ECA and PPB as well as smart control of the thrust, heat shouldn't be an issue. Also, the slits themselves are ]well back of the legs.

Edited October 16, 2008 by d3v

[ChronoReverse]

2. An anti-gravity zero G device in a valk would hinder a pilot's skill due to the lack of feedback the Valk gives the pilot. it's like driving a car without feeling acceleration, deceleration, side to side movements in turns etc. etc. someone once told me....when you drive for the first time you're just driving a car....when you get experience, the car becomes an extension of yourself.

Or they could be intelligent about it and simply have it a function of the g-forces being exerted on the pilot. You don't need the full g-force on you for feedback, it just has to correspond to something and your brain can easily use that.

4. Even with ThermoNuc. engines....there must be a some sort "fuel" type to propel the valks. The structure of the Valkyrie cannot handle kinetic explosions that a reactor can produce nor sustain. Those type of reactors are better suited to produce high amounts of heat to then combine with different components to turn into kinetic energy....atleast that's how the modern world does it.

Macross universe. Protoculture. Energy Converting Armor. At least do the basic research before calling people names and using terms like "kiddies".

5. Starscream was a popular character in "robotic" cartoons....he had the canopy in the front and that design worked.....why not for a valk. i think the transformations were just designs that SK played around with. Change is good....and bad.

The original Starscream design was a valkyrie interestingly enough.

[Mr March]

The VF-25 and VF-27 are definitely in the same class, much like the YF-19 and YF-21 were comparable variable fighters. The VF-27 has slightly better acceleration than the non-Super VF-25, but their performances are definitely in the same realm. I calculated thrust-to-weight ratios a while back and the two latest variable fighters a very close in performance. The two are also quite far beyond last generation Valkyries.

Thrust-To-Weight Ratios

YF-19 (empty) = 15.43 (atmosphere limitation = 9.26)

YF-21 (empty) = 13.65 (atmosphere limitation = 8.19)

VF-25F Messiah (empty) = 39.09

VF-27 Lucifer (empty) = 46.48

Thrust Ratings in kgs (to compare to older Macross statistics)

VF-25 Messiah

165,138 kg x 2

Total thrust = 330,276 kg

VF-27

140,367 kg x 4

Total thrust = 561,468 kg

Battroids are obviously capable of flying but at the same time, the fighter mode would obviously be superior. This is why we don't see Battroids flying all that often unless it's in the middile of a furballed dogfight where one pilot is trying to get a leg up on his opponent (punny!)

We've discussed the thermonuclear reaction engines before and they sound like they could be either fusion or exotic matter reactors (perhaps anti-matter). They would use some form of reactant like any reactor, but it's clear once the engines are fueled, they can go almost indefinitely. The Valkyries in later Macross productions are shown entering and leaving the atmosphere and still having fuel to dogfight and then fly so more. The official literature does describe reaction engines as "extremely efficient" so it's not surprising.

I still think the canopy "shield" makes it quite clear any cockpit in Battrroid mode is likely one of the most protected areas of the Valkyrie.

[d3v]

I remember on SDF:M, Kakizaki valk got hit on the nose cone, and its leaking something (fuel? oil?).

Steak sauce.

[Mr March]

Super Dimension Steak Sauce!

[d3v]

Super Dimension Steak Sauce!

Sadly, he never got to use it on his steak.

[anime52k8]

Eh...I'm just frustrated digging through tons of threads to find bit of pieces of info...that's why we need a A "Important" Technology thread upon different aspects in one place....now ain't that a little more easier folks?

Alright down to business.

1. I don't think the Ex-gear has anything to do with reducing G-forces in a Valk...I concur this from the Ex-Gear colapsing inside the cockpit and removes itself from the wearer, am I the only one who caught that?. The truth is in the flight suit/cockpit....they already got flight suits that reduce G stress today. the Ex-Gear is just a suped up ejection seat.

during the show while they were analyzing footage of the VF-27, they say that it performs maneuvers that a human pilot even with an EX-Gear couldn’t survive.

the line implies that the EX-Gear is doing something to help the pilot survive high G loads. and what they have today is G suits that keep blood at you head to prevent you from blacking out, EX-Gear (or whatever is working in these things) is making it so the pilot doesn't turn to Jelly do to high G load.

2. An anti-gravity zero G device in a valk would hinder a pilot's skill due to the lack of feedback the Valk gives the pilot. it's like driving a car without feeling acceleration, deceleration, side to side movements in turns etc. etc. someone once told me....when you drive for the first time you're just driving a car....when you get experience, the car becomes an extension of yourself.

id doesn't remove the feeling of movment completely, just enough at the highest levels of acceleration/deceleration/turning, to keep you in one piece and not dead.

if thats what they'er using.

3. I think Battroid mode flys slower due to the structure of the engines being divided in to segments....not just one flush piece. Remember now kiddies, when air flows....it doesn't like to bend in different directions. Venier thrusters manuever the Valk, NOT to add boost to augment main thrust.

were talking about space though, no air in space. and the backpack thrusters are for propulsion.

4. Even with ThermoNuc. engines....there must be a some sort "fuel" type to propel the valks. The structure of the Valkyrie cannot handle kinetic explosions that a reactor can produce nor sustain. Those type of reactors are better suited to produce high amounts of heat to then combine with different components to turn into kinetic energy....atleast that's how the modern world does it.

it's the future, they (through the magic of OverTech©) Figured out how to make the valks strong enough to handle these sorts of things.

5. Starscream was a popular character in "robotic" cartoons....he had the canopy in the front and that design worked.....why not for a valk. i think the transformations were just designs that SK played around with. Change is good....and bad.

but starscream doesn't have a pilot, he's a maniacal sentient robot from a planet that itself is a giant sentient robot. Valk design has alway's tried to be at least somewhat realistic (excpet in 7) and having the cocpit (with a human pilot in it) right in front of the chest with just glass and a thing shield in to protect them seems rather unsafe.

(they actually show this in MacII)

6. I don't like the design of the 21. How can it hover in gerwalk when the main engines are mounted on the torso facing rear?....and please don't tell me venier thrusters on the feet because that's just redundant. Oh yeah....vectoring wouldn't work either.

the 21 is awsome, it's like a variable Q-Rau.

and yes their ar thrusters in the feet that suplament the rear engines. and it's no more redundant than how on the VF-0/VF-1/VF-19/other valks I can't think of off the top of my head the backpack thrusters (which provide aditional thrust for propulsion) can't be used durring fighter mode.

7. Alto is the first Macross gay/cross dressing hero.....man that's tuff

and there you go....

well I like Alto, he was cool so

Edited October 16, 2008 by anime52k8

[anime52k8]

As for the YF-21/VF-22, it has a set of folding underfuselage slits to provide downward thrust in gerwalk mode (taken from the Compendium).

ORLY? I thought that the slits things were just hinged plates that filled out the underside of the fuselage in fighter mode and stacked over each other to let the back part of the fuselage slide forward.

I looked at the compendium before....but was skeptical about it's info because I didn't know about it's authenticity. I got horror stories from the MacII RPG books.....looks like fan fiction to me. Oh well it was the closet thing for technical data on the series....and my 2nd fav Valk design, the Metal Siren.

the compendium is as close to official as we english speakers will ever get. and it is aproved by th HFH.

[kanedaestes]

So has anyone adressed Gunpod placement yet? Why did they move away from the placement on arms? That means they have to constantly hold the gun in Battriod form or risk losing it. I don't see that as a more advanced design feature.

[ChronoReverse]

Depends on the model. For instance, the VF-17, YF-21/VF-22 tuck their gunpods inside an ejection slot.

[kanedaestes]

Sorry i was referring to the 25 and 27. They are tucked underneath the valk in fighter and gerwalk mode but in battroid they have no placement for them that i have seen yet other than the batt hand

[Mark Nguyen]

In practice, it's the same reason why we don't have arm-mounted rifles on people either. Mounting the gun pod in the "hand" of the Battroid or Gerwalk modes gives the machine an extra pivot point and ability to shoot at things without needing to orient the whole forearm in the same direction. ALso, if you lose functionality in your right arm, you can always switch your gun pod over to the left - Alto did just that in episode 7.

Mark

[kanedaestes]

Huh? No I meant... Okay one of the coolest feature on valks was when they could leave their guns on the side of the arm so that they could have their hands free. I noticed that in the new series in battriod form the they no longer store their weapons on their arms when they are not in use. They just drop it and let it float wherever it may be which to me seems like a waste ot material and weapons.