Hurricane Katrina

[JB0]

Edit

I was going to add to the discussion, before I read the fourth page.  I think this thread is lock bait, so I'll not add anymore fuel to the fire.

325499[/snapback]

*grabs a can of gasoline and some bottles of alcohol*

I know how to stop the looting AND start drying the city all at once.

Nuke the bowl.

Not like there's a lot in there worth saving anyways.

[Sumdumgai]

Although it's getting political and this thread will probably be locked, I think deathHammer has a point, as un-pc as it may be. But thank god some people don't conform and have the guts to point out an ugly truth.

Let's keep this civil and maybe this thread will stay open. Keep up the insulting and we'll see the mods go ape-s*** with their ninja powers! Everyone will die except for me, you know why? Because I had my tray table up, and my seat back in it's full upright position! In Alllllllllbuquerque~

There's a guy on rebelscum forums who's auctioning off a ANH Luke Elite Edition lightsaber, and supposedly all the money will go to the red cross for aiding Hurrican Katrina victims. If the guy is serious, then he's a great guy.

[Kin]

Anyone got a fishing rod? Maybe there's alot of fish to eat.

[one_klump]

well, there are reports of Bull and Sand tiger sharks in the streets.

[Ed.Coli]

Blog and webcam feed from the guys who run the server for Something Awful.

Read it, it's an incredibly detailed description of the incredible shitstorm that's brewing in Orleans. What seriously pisses me the fart off is the absolute lack of any kind of government intervention; FEMA and the National Guard have proven themselves to be all kinds of useless, and here are the politicians just congratulating themselves on a "job well done" while people are flat out DYING in NO. The real military only started moving in YESTERDAY. Before that, the Natl. Guard was dropping food and supplies off BRIDGES. No one could approach them without getting a gun aimed at them. Christ.

[Ghadrack]

Fishing wouldn't help very much. The liquid that the city is submerged in has been described as a "toxic stew" of muddy water, petroleum, sewage, the bodies of the recently deceased (May their souls rest in peace) debris from homes, the contents of a chemical plant, and as someone noted the contents of the mausoleums that house the dead in New Orleans, as they use above ground burial chambers for their dead in the city.

I truly feel sorry, and a little helpless watching the mess on TV, I can't imagine what those poor people are going through. From everything I have read, been told or heard, the Salvation Army and the Red Cross are about the best avenues for donation at this point, I hope they can make a big difference fast.

[grss1982]

The problem is not completely about the Mayor and the cops there, they need soldiers, engineers, doctors down there. They need the military down there. But guess what? Most of that equipment is probably in Iraq right now.

325446[/snapback]

this onlny goes to show that the u.s. military is stretched thin, right?

[JB0]

The problem is not completely about the Mayor and the cops there, they need soldiers, engineers, doctors down there. They need the military down there. But guess what? Most of that equipment is probably in Iraq right now.

325446[/snapback]

this onlny goes to show that the u.s. military is stretched thin, right?

325561[/snapback]

That does raise a question...

Why did they bring flood gear to Iraq?

[Major Johnathan]

Sorry, but there's massive amounts of military equipment here in the States. It's a bit silly saying it's all in Iraq, seems like a political throw away line to me. The kind of equipment,supplies and personnel needed are plentiful, you can only get so much stuff somewhere so fast. I'm impressed at how many choppers of all sorts have been there since day one, Coast Guard, Army, Navy and Marines.

The most critical thing is good old civilian buses, get as many people out as fast as possible. Very strangely, there's pics of the scores, maybe hundreds of school and city buses in NO that are completely flooded. They ordered an evacuation (before the hurricane, let alone flood) and had all the transportation they needed, they just didn't do it. That's inexplicable and it falls on the Mayor's and Governor's doorstep. That and the total failure to manage the Superdome as a pre-arranged shelter.

The Feds/military are frankly there as fast as you can expect, the lesson here is depend on yourself for at least 5 days without outside help in a crisis.

You can fairly argue there aren't enough troops in Iraq, or that they should be out altogether, but Iraq is irrelevent to a domestic natural disaster. The bulk of the military is always at home. (training, re-equipping and resting.)

[B-52 GUNNER]

People say it took too long for the National Guard to get in there.

For one, there isn't a HUGE warehouse full of preloaded semi trailers full of food and supplies.

Also, the National Guard isn't just sitting there in barracks waiting for a disaster.

They had to get the people mobilized and then load a multitude of Semi trailers full of supplies and then make it through tons of debris to get to the stricken areas.

I feel they got in there in an appropriate amount of time.

[Major Johnathan]

I just looked at that photo of the buses in NO, it's on Drudge. There's literally hundreds of buses, as far as the eye can see. And the Mayor, Nagin I think his name is, gave a radio tirade how everyone else is letting NO down.

Those buses were absolutely his responsibility and he had the gall to ask where's the fleet of buses from the outside? He froze and all their buses were ruined. That is a big reason why all those people have been stuck in NO for so long.

He also refered to the looters as 'knuckle heads', man that's strong language.

Edited September 3, 2005 by Major Johnathan

[Major Johnathan]

The above stories are misleading. There's 48 more states, many with little or no National Guard in Iraq. Do you think the Kansas or Illinois or whoever National Guard can't go into NO??? The U.S. Military if I remember right, is around 2 million strong, maybe a bit less. But the total U.S. presence in Iraq has been around 135,000 for a long time now.

Iraq is taking up mostly combat units, Marine and Army infantry and Armor units. That leaves the vast bulk of the Air Force, Navy, Coast Guard and tons of Army support units. There is EASILY PLENTY of military personnel and equipment at home to deal with the Hurricane. It's only a problem of logistics, you can't move that many people and they're equipment in 24 hours. It takes a few days, like I said the Feds/Military are right on schedule. Now the local authorities, they've been awful.

And why oh why do all these critics keep throwing Iraq up again and again, no matter what the topic? Could we be playing politics with a Goddamn Hurricane?

Do we hear people going 'tsk-tsk', if only we didn't have thousands of troops in Japan? If only we didn't have thousand of troops in Korea... If only we didn't have thousands in the Balkans... If only we didn't have thousands in Germany... If only we didn't have thousands in Afghanistan...Diego Suarez, West Africa, South America, Central America, Central Asia, Guam etc, etc. etc.

There's no mention of troops ANYWHERE ELSE in the WORLD, and you'd think there's practically NONE left in America. It's all about Iraq, those precise troops in Iraq would've made the difference. No other troops from anywhere else mean a damn thing.

Do you know the real truth man? Dick Cheney was in his secret Halliburton bunker 100 stories beneath the Grand Canyon useing a weather control joystick to steer that Hurrican right at NO because he hates black people and also Bush had Texas Air Guard bombers dropping aluminum powder into Katrina so she'd go to a category 5, meanwhile Rumsfeld and his Israeli masters long ago ordered Mississippi and Louisiana National Guard into Iraq so those states would be defenceless...man. And if you think those levy's just broke ,man, your wrong, Carl Rove was there with some C-4 to do it himself, 'cause he hates black people too.

[Kin]

http://wss-vip.adv.xc.advection.net/event/...n/0250?ext=.asf

Lol he needs sleep! Get away from the computer!

[Major Johnathan]

Oh, I didn't address the "if only Bush approved the money" angle. Well let's see, there's Jazz/Blues songs going back to I think pre-WWII about Louisiana flooding, they've been playing them like crazy lately.

Point being, Louisiana/NO are no stranger to floods or Hurricanes. The danger has existed for a good century. For as long as I can remember, there's been shows about Hurricanes and predictions how NO was hugely vulnerable. Well it finally happened, like someone who doesn't buy insurance and they're house burns down.

The truth is NO was more worried about Mardi Gras and tourism than levys. Many states and cities are particularly vulnerable to catastrophic acts of nature. How about you folks in California? How many of you live on or near a fault line or in a wildfire zone? Now you folks COULD divert massive amounts of money to better quake-proof your homes and buildings. But guess what? People want their medicare, medicaid, prescription drug benefits, more or better highways and roads, fancier schools with broadband internet, money for a museum, you name it. So just try and cut an older person's benefits or a younger person's college aid, or a congressman's favorite pork project to build a big ugly levy that no one 'uses', it's just there.

You want to blame Bush for the cuts, fine, but don't forget the fine Louisiana congressional delegation, mayor and Governor too, they had their priorities too. Then there's all those ex presidents who did the same damn thing, Clinton, Bush Sr., Reagan, Carter, Ford, Johnson, Ike, Trueman, Roosevelt... ALL passed the buck to the next guy to come along. All took the same gamble.

So if 'the big one' finally hits L.A., which has been predicted for ages now, will that be Bush's fault too? Of course, in today's world. Let's not forget Yellowstone, there's predictions of a mega eruption that'll devastste the whole center of the country, that's his fault wether it happens tomorrow or in 10 years bescause he didn't do anything to prevent it now. But it doesn't matter because an asteroid will come along and wipe out Earth, and Bush will have failed to have spent the hundreds of billions to build an asteroid killing laser beam. That bastard has it in for us.

[Major Johnathan]

Lol he needs sleep! Get away from the computer!

325642[/snapback]

You don't know how right you are...

By the way, heres the picture of a couple of NO buses that could have saved lives if they were used for evacuation. ( but Bush sent minions to slash all their tires.)

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/0...flpc21109012015

[Sumdumgai]

Lol he needs sleep! Get away from the computer!

325642[/snapback]

You don't know how right you are...

By the way, heres the picture of a couple of NO buses that could have saved lives if they were used for evacuation. ( but Bush sent minions to slash all their tires.)

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/0...flpc21109012015

325646[/snapback]

Holy s***, no kidding!

And I'm rather disgusted with all the passing the blame on everyone else with no one accepting responsability for anything.

I've been feeling more and more disgusted with the situation with all the looting, murders, rapes, and attacks on evacuees and supply trucks. NO is showing a lot of the worst of its people, and it's not pretty.

That people are offering rooms in their homes to help house evacuees is admirable, but considering what kind of people forced their way onto those buses... The people that fought their way onto the buses, the armed looters that escaped on buses. It's a wonderful gesture on the families' parts, but I don't think they've taken into account the kind of danger they are putting themselves in.

[JB0]

The above stories are misleading. There's 48 more states, many with little or no National Guard in Iraq. Do you think the Kansas or Illinois or whoever National Guard can't go into NO??? The U.S. Military if I remember right, is around 2 million strong, maybe a bit less. But the total U.S. presence in Iraq has been around 135,000 for a long time now.

I just want to know what they needed the flood equipment for in Iraq. That's all.

  Do you know the real truth man? Dick Cheney was in his secret Halliburton bunker 100 stories beneath the Grand Canyon useing a weather control joystick to steer that Hurrican right at NO because he hates black people and also Bush had Texas Air Guard bombers dropping aluminum powder into Katrina so she'd go to a category 5, meanwhile Rumsfeld and his Israeli masters long ago ordered Mississippi and Louisiana National Guard into Iraq so those states would be defenceless...man. And if you think those levy's just broke ,man, your wrong, Carl Rove was there with some C-4 to do it himself, 'cause he hates black people too.

Made my day, right here.

[JsARCLIGHT]

Any way you look at this this is the greatest tragedy to befall America in decades... even centuries. An entire city... an entire metropolitan center... has been destroyed. This is not the contained damage of 9/11 or the small scale destruction of a tornado, this is an entire large city thrown into chaos.

I myself am suprised to see things going as smoothly as they are.

We just have to face it that no one can be 100% prepared for something like this. We can fool ourselves into thinking that but we just can't. New Orleans is GONE. The scale of this tragedy is mind boggling. Just the other day I was driving into my office in downtown Saint Louis thinking "imagine... all this... gone. Heavily damaged... under feet of water... just gone" It's a hard thing to wrap your mind around.

To make my appreciation of this disaster more personal one of my employees, a young woman who graduated from Loyola college in New Orleans just three years ago is in total shock. She still knows several people down there... and she has only heard from four out of the five she knows. Every day she has been almost catatonic, staring at the footage on her computer screen and mumbling things like "I used to go to that place" and point at what was left of a building.

It's hard for many of us to appreciate the damage and the death... it's just images on a TV to most of us. We are far detatched from the suffering and trauma. For us to criticize and finger point and blame at this stage of the game is juvenile. The way certain people are politicizing all of this this early in the game sickens me. Oppourtunists, all of them. This is a horrid national nightmare and it is being handled as fast as it humanly can. Yes there are problems, there will always be problems. Yes there are people dying... it's terrible but the scale on which this disaster has occured things like this will happen. You simply cannot mobilize heaven and earth in one day, or even one week. It takes time for support to arrive... it takes time for relief efforts to organize and deploy. It takes time for law and order to be restored to a city who has been thrown into chaos and anarchy. Everything is under way now and the avalanche of support is arriving. With hope and a lot of work New Orleans will rise from this and live again.

In the meantime we all need to quit finger pointing, quit blaming and most of all quit bitching about every little nuance of this situation. People are trying their best with a bad hand delt them. No one in command is TRYING to make this worse and none of the support, rescue, relief or rebuilding efforts are even finished yet. To call it a failure before it has had a chance to truly fail is unfair.

That's about all I have to say about this.

[one_klump]

Thank you JsARCLIGHT.

[Kin]

The US government is really being put to the test... unlike the tsunami disaster lots of people asume they can help on their own. If this escalates for weeks.. it would be necessary to get aid from Europe and other continents.

There would be a dilemma... do you accept help from outside or can't you bare the shame as a super continent?

[Mechafan]

First my thoughts and prayers go out to those affected. I have family there too. I have a relative that is going down with FEMA to help out.

The levy issue is over 30 years old. They should have been better prepared for this. In a science magazine in 2001, what happen to NO was predicted in detail pretty much word for word. I guess no one was hoping it would happen.

As for the criminals there, they should be dealt with in the worst way.

[JB0]

First my thoughts and prayers go out to those affected.  I have family there too.  I have a relative that is going down with FEMA to help out. 

The levy issue is over 30 years old.  They should have been better prepared for this.  In a science magazine in 2001,  what happen to NO was predicted in detail pretty much word for word.  I guess no one was hoping it would happen. 

As for the criminals there, they should be dealt with in the worst way.

325703[/snapback]

They've actually been predicting something exactly like this for several decades.

I think people got complacent. "Well, they've been predicting it since the sixties, and it hasn't happened yet... I think they're just crazy."

[cwbrown]

The above stories are misleading. There's 48 more states, many with little or no National Guard in Iraq. Do you think the Kansas or Illinois or whoever National Guard can't go into NO??? The U.S. Military if I remember right, is around 2 million strong, maybe a bit less. But the total U.S. presence in Iraq has been around 135,000 for a long time now.

I just want to know what they needed the flood equipment for in Iraq. That's all.

The Tigris and Euphrates Rivers flow pretty much the length of the country. Huge historical flood plain.

Iraq Map Reading in the Geography section it says "Natural hazards: dust storms, sandstorms, floods".

Edited September 3, 2005 by cwbrown

[JB0]

The above stories are misleading. There's 48 more states, many with little or no National Guard in Iraq. Do you think the Kansas or Illinois or whoever National Guard can't go into NO??? The U.S. Military if I remember right, is around 2 million strong, maybe a bit less. But the total U.S. presence in Iraq has been around 135,000 for a long time now.

I just want to know what they needed the flood equipment for in Iraq. That's all.

The Tigris and Euphrates Rivers flow pretty much the length of the country. Huge historical flood plain.

Iraq Map Reading in the Geography section it says "Natural hazards: dust storms, sandstorms, floods".

325706[/snapback]

Shows what I get for not paying attention in geography...

Strange, really, seeing gloods listed alongside sandstorms as a natural hazard.

[Kin]

I think someone don't like spending money on the rescue operation which cannot make profit out of it.. and I don't want to tell who.

[JB0]

I was looking stuff up earlier, and found something no one's mentioning about the drainage pumps that burned out because they were only meant to handle heavy rain.

They pumped the water up into Lake Pontchartrain.

The same lake that was draining into the city through the levee.

New Orleans had NO MECHANISM WHATSOEVER to deal with a failed levee.

Their entire disaster management strategy for such an incident consisted of sticking their heads in the sand and pretending it couldn't happen.

[Mechafan]

I was just reading that it could take up to 6 months to get all that water out of there.

http://apnews.excite.com/article/20050904/D8CD55B02.html

[JB0]

I was just reading that it could take up to 6 months to get all that water out of there.

http://apnews.excite.com/article/20050904/D8CD55B02.html

325774[/snapback]

Yah. Their geographical situation leaves them with no natural drainage whatsoever. The pumps were IT. And since they burned out after being run far longer than they were designed for, there's NO water leaving the bowl except for what evaporates out.

The only way the city's getting drained at all is if they bring in new pumps and start pumping the water out from dry land. And the sheer amount of water they need to move makes for slow going.

Personally, I just don't think it's sane to deal with it. I say just build "New New Orleans" somewhere safe.

...

Of course, the entire state of Louisiana has problems long-term(the "taming" of hte Mississippi has left the state totally lacking a way to replenish the massive amount of soil it loses to the ocean each year), but they can at least rebuild somewhere with drainage.

But my opinion is moot. They're gonna drain and rebuild on the exact same spot because there's history there, or because they're not going to let a disaster get them down, or because they're stubborn idiots that can't see they're going to be inviting the exact same thing to happen to their great-grandkids by setting the exact same problem situation back up.

It happened in 1927(less than 20 years after the basin was initially drained), it happened in 2005, and it WILL happen again.

Another large hurricane will come ashore at the right angle, another wet season will flood the Mississippi, the water WILL rise over the levees again, the levees WILL fail again, New Orleans WILL flood again.

[Guest Bromgrev]

.. it would be necessary to get aid from Europe and other continents.

There would be a dilemma... do you accept help from outside or can't you bare the shame as a super continent?

325702[/snapback]

I believe The EU is already sending aid in the form of fuel, and Canada is sending search & rescue teams. But the main problem is not the resources, it's logistics, which outside aid will only complicate.

But my opinion is moot. They're gonna drain and rebuild on the exact same spot because there's history there, or because they're not going to let a disaster get them down, or because they're stubborn idiots that can't see they're going to be inviting the exact same thing to happen to their great-grandkids by setting the exact same problem situation back up.

325791[/snapback]

People are living on top of parts of Pompeii. For that matter, people are living in Bangladesh, in Japan, in L.A. Human nature. We just can't accept that it might happen to us. Which may be a good thing, otherwise no-one would ever try to cross a road again. It's a lot more difficult to rebuild an entire city somewhere else than where it is now, especially with the industries which are there because of the location.

Edited September 4, 2005 by Bromgrev

[Sumdumgai]

I can see things before they happen.

Okay this is how it's going to go. They're going to plug up the levees at strategic points to stop the water from flowing into the city. They'll make holes in areas where the city water is higher than the lake water.

Check.

Then when that's good, they'll plus up all the holes in the levee.

Check

Then they'll use the pumps to drain the rest of the water into the lake. Where it will overflow the levee, because no one is paying attention to where the water is being drained to. The levee started to overflow, someone notices and panics, proceeding to knock themselves out when they run into a wall.

Levee breaks in new and old locations, city gets reflooded.

Seriously, JBO is right. They should rebuild somewhere else. Name it New Orleans 2 or something, and build it in a better location.

Screw the levees and the flooded city. Leave it. They'll spend more money trying to protect and rebuild the city over and over, than if they moved to a better spot. It's like building those walls of sand to protect your sand castle in the area where the tide comes in, the waves always win.

Why fight nature and live in a place that was meant to be filled with water? Either that or they should make New Orleans an underwater city with a big clear dome over it (not unlike M7's city section). Then again, terrorists would hit that. Too tempting.

[Kin]

Might as well live in an ankered floating home.

[Dobber]

What I don't get is this, since the water is so poluted with sewage Human remains, gas and other contanimates, should they be pumping that water into the lake or anywhere else for that matter. Mind you I don't have another solution though.

Chris

[Pat Payne]

New Orleans had NO MECHANISM WHATSOEVER to deal with a failed levee.

Their entire disaster management strategy for such an incident consisted of sticking their heads in the sand and pretending it couldn't happen.

325743[/snapback]

Levees notwithstanding, they had no plan for such an event that would have forced the evacuation of the city. I saw an AP photo of school buses that were flooded out and unusable -- rather than hole people up in the Superdome who couldn't leave, why didn't they use those school buses to get them out before Katrina hit?

Where was the New Orleans Police? After 9/11, the NYPD worked double and triple-time. After Katrina, over two hundred NOPD officers laid down their badges and said "screw this," leaving the city to the looters until the National Guard and other law-enforcemetn elements had to come in, and foud it so dangerous that some looters were to be shot on sight. (They had looted guns as well as other goods.)

Now, I don't begrudge the people who were taking food, water and appropriate clothing (note the word apropriate), but it does raise an important question:

Given the position that New Orleans is in, and given that they knew that someday there would be a catastrophic hurricane, where were the stockpiles of disaster supplies? Where was the water and MREs? Where were the public officials to distribute it in the Superdome and Convention Center?

I really believe that, although the Federal and State governments do share in a measure in the culpability for how Katrina's aftermath played out, the bulk of the blame must be placed upon the governments of the Orleans Parish and the government of New Orleans, who were almost criminally negligent, In my opinion.

Edited September 4, 2005 by Pat Payne

[Golden Arms]

I heard a flood expert speaking on MSNBC this morning, He said that the cost to fix the flood situation properly would cost around 14 billion. Thats around the same figure for Big Dig in Jersey. He also said the real problem is that with our over consumption of fossil fuels, lack of wetlands, and global warming which is causing rising coastal lines --coastal cities around the globe in the future will have similar problems that NO faced.

[eugimon]

New Orleans had NO MECHANISM WHATSOEVER to deal with a failed levee.

Their entire disaster management strategy for such an incident consisted of sticking their heads in the sand and pretending it couldn't happen.

325743[/snapback]

Levees notwithstanding, they had no plan for such an event that would have forced the evacuation of the city. I saw an AP photo of school buses that were flooded out and unusable -- rather than hole people up in the Superdome who couldn't leave, why didn't they use those school buses to get them out before Katrina hit?

Where was the New Orleans Police? After 9/11, the NYPD worked double and triple-time. After Katrina, over two hundred NOPD officers laid down their badges and said "screw this," leaving the city to the looters until the National Guard and other law-enforcemetn elements had to come in, and foud it so dangerous that some looters were to be shot on sight. (They had looted guns as well as other goods.)

Now, I don't begrudge the people who were taking food, water and appropriate clothing (note the word apropriate), but it does raise an important question:

Given the position that New Orleans is in, and given that they knew that someday there would be a catastrophic hurricane, where were the stockpiles of disaster supplies? Where was the water and MREs? Where were the public officials to distribute it in the Superdome and Convention Center?

I really believe that, although the Federal and State governments do share in a measure in the culpability for how Katrina's aftermath played out, the bulk of the blame must be placed upon the governments of the Orleans Parish and the government of New Orleans, who were almost criminally negligent, In my opinion.

325844[/snapback]

yup. I gotta agree with you here.. if people want to build homes in flood planes, or unstable hills or cliffs, let them. but don't go blaming the government when nature comes knocking. Maybe the Federal government could have acted sooner.. but I fail to see how raping, looting TVs and shooting at hospital workers makes things better.

And let's consider, louisiana and other southern states take WAY more of federal tax dollars in aid and subsisdies than any other state and they still can't get their house in order.

I feel for those people, I really do... but instead of praising a mayor that sat around and did nothing before and can't do anything but complain afterwards, try doing something for yourselves.